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Atrayonis's picture
Atrayonis
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This thread is for feedback from our recent status update, wether it be from people on the website or copied & pasted from somewhere else (so that we have useful feedback at a glance in the future).

LordInsane's picture
LordInsane
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Am I okay with moving the travel changes to TR_Mainland? Yes. It seems well within TR's scope, and I personally use TR_Travels as standard.
Would I prefer Ebonheart to be a dead end until Old Ebonheart and Teyn are moved into TR_Mainland? Yes. It seems less confusing in-play to me.
Do I want faction integration to happen? Emphatic yes.
Do I want this kind of integration now? Yes. Even without TR faction questlines integration can still help avoid the feeling of artifical separation.

Undertaker's picture
Undertaker
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If you are okay with TR moving the travel changes into TR_Mainland instead of keeping it separate and optional

I would vote no. I would like TR_Travels to remain separate plugin file. My reasoning is that I use mods altering Vvardenfell travel routes and I plan to make my own travel mod (probably based on TR_Travels) for Tamriel Rebuilt. Also it can possibly invalidate some default dialogue.

Do you want this to happen at all?

Question is about Faction Unification. My answer is YES. It's absolute must.

If agreeing that you want it to happen, would you want to see this kind of integration now or later, at a time when TR can add its own faction questline?

It doesn't seem to priority right now, so take your time. Not to mention that without new quests for Mainland you would have to keep faction's advancements rules at current level and edit it again later. Logically you would want to edit vanilla factions only once instead of twice in chunks.

Since it's feedback thread aka something I've always wanted to post my own little thoughts about TR I will now ask few (or maybe only one, I need to make more notes, right now I'm easily forgetting my thoughts about this beautiful game) questions. Ignore them if you want.
 

 

Is there a plan to include location called "Molag Beran"? It's mentioned in ballad titled "Battle of Molag Beran" and it's (as far as I understand, cause I'm actually not that sure about my English) about battle between Redoran forces (House Retheran) and Telvanni's (House Drenim) at Telvanni settlement. Even if we assume that city (or maybe Daedric Ruins right now? Or Velothi tower?) is destroyed it still mentions "River Tadras" that could be the name for, well, river. Bad thing is that Telvanni parts of mainland are already created so it may be to late to consider this. Not to mention name "Molag" suggest it's location to be Ashlands or similar.

I believe I saw plans to include Vodunius Nuccius in Narsis. My suggestion for his quest would his further financial problems. Let's say he borrowed some money and is now treatened by Camonna Tong. We could help him (treaten/kill Camonna Tong guys) and borrow him some money to leave Morrowind altogether (Cheydinhal? Imperial City? Mir Corrup? (good place for Project Tamriel quest as he would be dissappointed with Mir Corrup being dying city) or maybe Daggerfall cause he wants to be as far from Morrowind as possible) or we could actually help Camonna Tong and kill him (could be only Dunmer quest, I know we're still outlanders, but a bit less than Vodunnius, no?)

Drulene Falen mentions she lived earlier in Tear (I like Dres Tyr more). She should have friends or enemies there, maybe someone who mentions her casually wondering what she's up to right now.

Argonian slave hunters are absolute must I think, they would have some sort of agreement with Dres (we send you slaves from neighbouring settlement and you don't enslave people lizards from our settlement). Sounds unbelievable? I think not, not only it has plenty of examples of such things happening in real world, but, more importantly, there is Argonian Slave Hunter in vannila Morrowind. He's called Tul and wants to kill Sterdecan.

Tashpi Ashibael is another person that leave for mainland (if alive, don't forget to add check whether Vodunnius is actually alive, we can always kill him after completing his quest). Where? She also should be thankful for letting us escape and maybe even mention that she was just healer and "necromancy" she did was only primitive "autopsy" for science and better helping people and mer in the future. Another thing from real world when autopsies were illegal due to religious superstitions.

What about other people leaving Vvardenfell, is there a list of all them? What about Nelos Onmar and Maurrie? They're said to be never heard of, so they could disappear completely, but that's not a must. Tongue-Toad? Did he leave Morrowind completely or only Vvardenfell. Duvianus Platorius? Should probably reside somewhere in Old Ebonheart (pre and after quest involving him in Vivec).

Since you already have "naked Nord" quest, then "Ashlanders stole my guar's hides" is another recurring quest to consider.

Adding Almsivi marker to Vos - did you think this over thoroughly? You want to isolate Telvanni (hence removing some travel routes), but you add Almsivi marker (which I believe was removed by the Temple on purpose) to the effectively Telvanni settlement and Temple that has two inhabitants/employees of which one of them (Yakin Bael) isn't even Temple member.

Do you add Bloatspores (flora that was in vanilla Morrowind, but was never used by mistake)? I never saw any of them, though I don't play TR that much, so I don't know everything already when TR gets released in full.

It's more of a question to Project Tamriel staff, but book called "ABC for Barbarians" have pictures of "Burgler's Bane" and "Comberry". It suggest that those fungi and plants are continent wide, so Project Tamriel staff should use them in some parts of their projects. If not, then renaming book to "ABC for Morrowind Barbarians" or "ABC for Dunmeri Barbarians" is a possibility, but it may be not something that TR would want to do. Could someone from TR mention it in her/his next conversation with someone from Project Tamriel? I believe it to be quite important matter in order to achieve consistent world. If Barbarians are meant to learn alphabet by watching at pictures of Burgler's Bane and Comberry, then Burgler's Bane and Comberry should be very common outside Morrowind too.

If I think about anything else I will come here and haunt you with more questions sometime later.

abot's picture
abot
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I vote for all separate.esp changes, they are easier to discard/edit/adapt for compatibility with other mods/personal tastes than the monolithic TR_Mainland.esm

[EDIT]about faction unification: no thanks if possible, for the same reason: easier compatibility with existing mods/saves.

Ragox's picture
Ragox
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TR_Travels Integration: Yes, definitely!

I've seen too many people get confused with the plugin version. They either unintentionally don't activate it or they use it without having TR_Preview loaded up, ending with them traveling into completely empty areas.

Faction Unification: Yes, definitely!

This is a no-brainer. I strongly believe that mere mod compatibility for random mod XYZ isn't worth sacrificing that much immersion.

Kevaar's picture
Kevaar
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My own two cents, nothing official in any way:

Travel integration--yes please! I would also prefer travel lines to remain dead ends until their destinations are ready for full release.

Faction Integration--I could go either way with this one, so long as we decide soon (TM), and I don't have to keep my faction questline claims waiting in limbo anymore. laugh

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Rot
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Some precisions on faction unification and savegames: a patch can be made to transfer quest progress from old saves (the scripts already exist in the mod version); increased requirements in the integration plugin might not apply if faction reactions have been modified ingame before in a save, but that won't prevent the save from working, it just means the requirements won't change.
 

Undertaker

 
 

What about other people leaving Vvardenfell, is there a list of all them?

There is:
http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/comment/5165#comment-5165
but you should probably make another thread for those topics

Cicero's picture
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I also vote integrate everything. It makes it seem like a whole package like that, rather than "modder plugins".

Ateiggaer's picture
Ateiggaer
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My 'yes' to all of this.

Atrayonis's picture
Atrayonis
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I've been trying not to reply to any of these yet, so as to not derail the feedback-giving, but something keeps nagging me:

For the travel-plugin, we should just duplicate the travel NPCs we edit and remove the vanilla ones (or our TR old ones for abot) from their cells. Thus, all edits to them automatically edit the correct one and nothing is overwritten. Also saves a big problem with the NPC-specific face replacers.

There would need to be a plugin to disable ours and reenable the vanilla ones, so that all the mods that edit them would work as intended with minimal conflict.

Also, a few patches for the LGNPC mods and maybe Morrowind Rebirth would be needed, but that should not be much effort (copying a few pieces of dialogue and correcting NPC placement).

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Undertaker
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Atrayonis

Also, a few patches for the LGNPC mods and maybe Morrowind Rebirth would be needed, but that should not be much effort (copying a few pieces of dialogue and correcting NPC placement).

I don't see why TR should make dialogue changes for Morrowind Rebirth when Morrowind Rebirth doesn't do it for itself. I.e. it add ship route from Hla Oad to Seyda Neen, yet Hla Oad's shipmaster doesn't mention it at all in his/her dialogue.

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Integrating both is the way to go.

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Hi, I have only lurked on this site, but I thought I'd give my two cents.

First: The News mentions an Update 1706 - but there is no official release of this? The download page lists 1612 as the last update.

On the merging of Travel: Personally, I would be satisfied if either: Vanilla travel routes remain unchanged and additional routes are added to connect TR to Vvardenfell (as this causes the least disruption for Vanilla), of if you proceed with the plan (as pictured) to alter travel routes to eliminate the long range links. I would however prefer version one, as it changes vanilla less. It also makes sense that direct routes around the island would exist, as Vvardenfell seems to be relatively isolated from the mainland, otherwise questlines had to be altered to add links to the mainland as well. On the other hand, new quests could be added to add integration between Vvardenfell and the Mainland.

On merging the factions: Personally I think this could be done two ways as well.
1.) Just alter the names and requirement for faction level up. So instead of being promoted to Grandmaster of a House once you finish all vanilla quests, you are instead at some lower rank and don't need to fulfill as high a requirement (i.e: Skill level 70 instead of 90, with promotion to Grandmaster requiring skill level 100 instead of 90). With the old ranks renamed, additional ranks can be added to give TR space for expansion of House Questlines. Quest descriptions have to be altered as well, so for the Hortator Quest for example, some lines must be added to explain that Vvardenfell Matters concern the Vvardenfell Council Members, and as such they name you Hortator as normal without the consent of the Mainland Grandmaster. In addition, the old Grandmasters have to be demoted to Head Councilour for the Vvardenfell Region or somesuch. Miscelanious topics and lore descriptions have to be altered as well. In my mind, this would be the least work intensive form of integration, as there are no alteration to scripts or quests per se, only alterations to ingame texts.

2.) Full integration with TR Questlines. This means the following changes in addition to the ones layed out above, or superseeding the proposals: Altering the Mainquest to take place partly on the Mainland (getting your promotion to Hortator from the new Mainland-Grandmasters for example), and fully integrating House Questlines with TR content. This means that Ranks are not altered, but additional quests must be undertaken to gain ranks (namely the TR quests). This in turn requires changes to dialogue to send you to the mainland etc., and maybe even adding missions to the main quest on the mainland (investigating sixth house activity, talking to tribesmen, etc). This would more or less require a complete overhaul of vanilla questlines, as well as completed questlines for Mainland House Telvanni. The guilds, in contrast to the houses, can just be localized and not altered, so finishing the fighters guild will promote you to Master of the Vvardenfell Chapter of the fighters guild. In my mind, this seems more work intensive, albeit more immersive.

I would prefer total integration, as it gives the best immersion and offers seamless integration of vanilla and TR content, but given that it is so labour intensive, proposal one could be more attainable in the near term.

Either way, these are my thoughts on the matter. I would also like to thank all TR-Modders for their continued efforts to expand Morrowind and give it the attention that it deserves. I sincerely hope that we can someday all see a completed release, as that would be an achievement unrivaled by any other modding community.

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LordInsane
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1706 is the 'Patch for TR 16.12', I think (released in Month 6 of Year (20)17).

Atrayonis's picture
Atrayonis
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I've checked with LondonRook (for those who don't know, he's creating a Morrowind Overhaul called Outlander) and he too would prefer if we kept edits to the travel links confined to an ESP.

He doesn't change the factions, but is weary of any edits to Vvardenfell and would prefer if we didn't.

Kevaar's picture
Kevaar
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Thank you very much to everyone who sent us feedback and participated in our discussions! We've come to a decision on how to handle the issues of Faction and Travel Integration moving forward: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/content/faction-and-travel-integration-big-ol...

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Jedak
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It's been a long time.

My two cents:
Absolutely ok with TR moving the travel changes into TR_Mainland. 
Absolutely, emphatically agree with faction intergration. Whenever best fits the projects needs.

I'm thrilled to see the project become more professionally organized over the years, keep at it, keep going strong!