[Aeven]

http://i50.tinypic.com/20s7os0.jpg

A little taste of what's to come.

[Haplo]

Removed the img tags so that it doesn't fuck with smaller screens. Also, what is that screenshot of?

[Aeven]

Here's a file with what I made a screenshot of. The cell's name has _Kowloon at the end of it.

[Nemon]

Finally got a chance to look at it, the stuff you added looks great! Tight, closed in and looking good at the top of the hill as well.

[arvisrend]

inb4 don't show a fool a job half done. I'm just having this betacomment reflex when I see something odd.

flora_heather_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (20,-26) 170511 -212494 169 "float"

Terrain_rocks_AI_02 TR_Mournhold Region1 (23,-24) 189733 -189018 424 "casper"

Terrain_rocks_AI_02 TR_Mournhold Region1 (22,-24) 187596 -193089 298 "casper"

furn_de_tapestry_10 TR_i3-366-Ind (Gah'ruhn, Plaza Guard Tower) 3856 4224 14775 "bleeds into staircase"

ex_velothi_loaddoor_01 Othrensis (16,-29) 133559 -232322 1102 "why lock a shop?"

TR_M3_Marina Rendethi00000000 Othrensis (16,-29) 131809 -231787 1010 "greeting 'Greetings, %PCRace. I hope Othrensis suites your needs' could do better if 'suits' would be spelt correctly."

TR_M3_Marina Rendethi00000000 Othrensis (16,-29) 131809 -231787 1010 "little advice 'South of here is Dres territory [...]': there is one 'Out' too much here"

TR_M3_Marina Rendethi00000000 Othrensis (16,-29) 131809 -231787 1010 "also, in that same reply: what does 'zenophobic' mean? afraid of paradoxes?'"

TR_m3_Drathas Vayle00000000 Othrensis, Drathas Vayle- Carpenter 3562 3101 14568 "might also sell hammers (at least the kind with a wooden hilt)"

Gorgeous landscaping, and this time I'm pretty sure it won't hit the framerate as Akamora and Baan Malur do.

[Aeven]

My last file. Nemon has said he wants to take over again.

The small valley-ish bit bordering A3 needs to be redone. Also, I think the Othrensis area could use some touching up, but that's minor stuff.

Would be nice to know people's opinion of what I did in Almalexia.

As far as interiors go: The Alma Rula palace and Indoril Council (new versions, in review) can be merged in. All reusable interiors have been linked. All unlinked cells can be deleted.

Due to the old interior structure of Almalexia, various claims consisted of a shit ton of buildings, and not literally all of them were re-linked. This means only parts of various such claims have been reused, when the situation didn't allow it.

Anyway, this means that you can have a nice stroll about the Grandest City and even explore some of what it has to offer.

Cheers.

[Nemon]

Stuff done.

[Nemon]

Regarding development of this city, we should keep that discussion here and not in the other thread Not created. I still disagree on certain points regarding the style discussion, but I will continue working on the south part of the city - keep in mind this is very WIP and probably not finished before early next month. Hopefully.

[arvisrend]

I hope these are still up-to-date. (I assume I should hope they're not.)

6/18/2012 (14:19) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling Terrain_rocks_GL_01 TR_Mournhold Region1 (21,-24) 177537 -192367 300 "casp0r"

6/18/2012 (14:20) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling flora_stoneflower_02 TR_Mournhold Region1 (21,-24) 174535 -190915 389 "all four of these float"

6/18/2012 (14:20) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling flora_tree_gl_01 TR_Mournhold Region1 (21,-24) 172581 -189833 1066 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:21) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling Flora_emp_parasol_03 xxxTR_Mournhold Region1 (19,-26) 163054 -205721 2195 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:23) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling crate_01_food_misc01 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-28) 173007 -221334 241 "there's a road stopping here"

6/18/2012 (14:23) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling terrain_rock_wg_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (20,-27) 166560 -217966 386 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:24) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling flora_bush_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (20,-27) 167116 -218048 259 "nearby, a vertexshaded spot without any static"

6/18/2012 (14:24) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling EX_MH_building_04 xxxTR_Mournhold Region1 (19,-26) 156828 -206946 897 "the road from almalexia to othrensis (and other places; there were 3 signposts in total) should not stop at this building"

I think this road should go somewhere through the endless fields that currently stretch out for miles to the west of this building. Many players will choose Tribunal's "transport to Mournhold" option as their way to get to TR lands, and then they need a good, low-level-walkable path to get into Heartland if they wish to. At the moment, the only paths from Almalexia into Heartland either go through the Inlet Bog, which will probably be very challenging for beginners (or at least looks so), or start at the south end of Almalexia and pass through Othrensis, which is quite unintuitive. How do merchants get from Alma to OE?

6/18/2012 (14:26) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling flora_wickwheat_01 TR_Map3 (16,-26) 137588 -211049 396 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:26) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling flora_wickwheat_04 TR_Map3 (16,-26) 136956 -211675 357 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:30) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling terrain_rock_ai_08 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-31) 178924 -248067 945 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:30) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling flora_bush_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-31) 178047 -247889 873 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:30) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling flora_bush_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-31) 177962 -248119 804 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:30) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling terrain_rock_ai_10 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-31) 177750 -248016 873 "float"

6/18/2012 (14:30) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/11/2012 (22:38) skraeling Terrain_rocks_AI_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-31) 176165 -247984 941 "float (i think you got the point)"

[Nemon]

This is just from the back of my head, but didn't we discuss it somewhere that the roads should be like this? Feel free to shed some light on this matter, I believe it was one of Sload's post that stated this.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

The only path across the river Thir is Almas Thir. This is intended.

[arvisrend]

[arvisrend]

I've just noticed that there really is a geographical separation between the Thirr River Valley and Almalexia: it's mountains on the south and Inlet Bog on the north. So I assume we should keep the main Inlet Bog roads remotely safe for low-levels... or add a series of scenic mountain passes connecting Roa Dyr with Othrensis. I'm more in favor of the latter solution. At the moment, the only ways between Roa Dyr and Othrensis are really long detours.

That said, my previous bugreports are still valid: There should be a direct way from Almalexia to Othrensis through the fields. They are both on the same side of the divide.

Also:

terrain_rock_wg_17 XXXXXAlmalexia (25,-30) 212971 -241705 1535 "here be wtfness"

Terrain_rocks_AI_02 XXXXXAlmalexia (23,-25) 190219 -197238 28 "caspers"

Light_MH_streetlamp_01 TR_Mournhold Region1 (23,-24) 190066 -195946 107 "there is a road here, but it fades into invisibility as it comes close to the gates"

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

There was a brief previous discussion here, where Hap considered approving a small footpath.

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=297642&highlight=roa+dyr#297642

I'm in agreement with the roadbuilders on this point anyway.

[Haplo]

Here are my current thoughts on the matter. The solid lines are where I think a road is needed, and the dotted line means those two North-South roads will meet up somewhere south of the edge of the map.

http://i.imgur.com/ily4Z.jpg

[Nemon]

Most recent WIP.

Now with even newer file.

Wrapping it up for tonight!

[Mwgek]

"I like what I see."

Sunset over Almalexia:

[Tyrion]

omg you guys

[Nemon]

Another new file now. The rich-ass island at south east is really coming along nicely, and I even added some old OM ruins underwater and in the cliffsides under Mournhold.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Ridicu-good. As ever, the mix of macro-majesty with micro-detail in each area is the brilliance.


A few random thoughts that came looking around: might a relatively empty, pretty, grassy hill walk make a nice change of pace going up from rich-asss island to Mournhold entrance, rather than just a dead end or mountain/urban staircase? (pic1)

Could the south-east most cliff of the 'Kowloon' island manageably be replaced with actual terrain work? too many of those cliffs together can look a bit flat. (pic2)

Might a simple floor mesh be useful to replace the use of many many TR_ex_ind_pier_01 as floors in the grand walkway areas?


On an NPCing note, should the 'TR_i3-293 #13 Brothel' int be where it is, in the vicinity of the manors and other mid-rich buildings? Should it be moved over to the seedier alley area near the canals to the south? Or have its purpose changed to just a cornerclub?

Gameplay-wise, there are places where it seems the player will need to use gondolas to proceed in the city, which relies on an NPC who can be killed. Whilst I like the idea of enforced gondola rides, at least the minimum necessary footbridges is probably a good idea?

[Haplo]

Could we make the gondoliers respawn?

[Thrignar Fraxix]

I dunno, I like the idea of punishing people dumb enough to kill service NPCs. Respawning is ok in my book too, though not idea.

[Nemon]

Regarding pic 1, the plan is to have the road cross the river and connect with the south entrance. I find the scrabbled hill a little too steep not to be rocky.

Pic 2, this boring cliff mesh area isnt nearly finished, so additional work will be done here. Also foot bridges in the city itself, as no areas are complete yet. I just tire from working on them, and circle around to a different area.

[Mwgek]

[Why]

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

[Nemon]

Um, no. It must seem logic for NPCs as well. If this was telvanni however .

[Terrifying Daedric Foe]

Sorry, haven't actually looked at the file yet. Just thought I'd add to the respawning gondaleers discussion.

[Haplo]

I'll see about getting a TR_Data update with those meshes some time this week. Thanks mwgek!

[arvisrend]

Great city, Nemon&Aeven! Exactly the kind of huge city that doesn't get boring that Beth failed to make even on a smaller scale.

But, just as BC, I am unconvinced by the difficulty of getting from A to B without jumping, levitation, gondolas and/or extreme detours. There are two parts of the city which cannot be reached from each other except through water or by going outside the city. While this gives the player some adventure-game style challenges, I fear most of our players will already be overwhelmed by the size of the city alone and by the difficulty of finding things in a multi-level exterior. (Also, it is not a good idea to force players to spend money as early in game as they will be when they first wind up in Mournhold.) From a more ingame perspective, how do merchants transport wares from one quarter to another? Gondolas aren't really made for heavy things. I bet most of them won't take that bullshit anyway and build some bridges. I think the city needs more bridges, really. Not just one bridge to connect places separated by water, but several, so one doesn't have to run wild detours between near places. These shallow canals don't add much to the defensibility of the place anyway. (Also, imagine the player being hunted by Ordinators, but half of them just crazily run around because they are on a different side of a canal and can't find a path to the player.)

FWIW:

6/27/2012 (12:06) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/24/2012 (22:23) skraeling TR_terrain_AI_rock_18 XXXXXAlmalexia_Kowloon (25,-28) 207698 -227734 2685 "tr_terr_cliffst11 caspers nearby"

[Theo]

I, to the contrary, like the fact that bridges are quite sparse in Almalexia.

Building bridges is actually very expensive and requires advanced technology, so only very few medieval towns could afford to have more than one (In Prague, there was only one major and one minor bridge until 19th century. 6 were built in the 2nd half of 19th century and 10 in the 20th).

Even a rich town full of canals like Venice has only handful of bridges over the canals (most of them also no older than few centuries, whose location was more dictated by historical development of the areas and social status of their inhabitants rather than by the utilitarian economical and logistical needs of today.

Solution optimal from economic perspective was not always available due to historic, social, religious or financial reasons. This is what distinguishes genuine historic towns from modern 'designed' towns like New York or Brazil, engineered for effective transportation. There we not such a need for traffic in the past as today.

This results in the fact that the navigation through the Venice is so non-trivial, intriguing and adds significantly to the ambient atmosphere.

The town feels like an organic grown structure, rather than simple set of isolated locations, such that there is always one optimal and evident straight path from location A to B.

But I guess a reasonable compromise must be reached so that this navigation was not frustrating and the bridges created natural separation of towns into districts.

[Nemon]

Almalexia was built by a goddess, and the inner city of Mournhold is protected by Her Grace's magic to prevent levitation. I think it's safe to say we have abandoned any real life references. Also, Vivec has a crapload of bridges. I need to stress that pretty much NO areas in Alma are what I consider complete, and I am going to look into all these things before we release this. Regarding transportation, I'm adding skiffs and rowboats for goods transportation as well.

[arvisrend]

tr_ex_ind_stair03 TR_i3-59_02 1920 3568 14092 "casper (all 4)"

tr_ex_ind_stair03 TR_i3-59_02 1928 4752 14092 "casper (all 4)"

TR_ex_ind_pier_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (21,-27) 178416 -219556 32 "casper"

Terrain_rocks_GL_03 TR_Mournhold Region1 (21,-24) 175894 -191328 224 "casper"

(all in the 24 Jun file)

----

@Theo: good point, but Morrowind cities have a lot of architecturally difficult constructs (what about Vivec cantons), and Almalexia itself already abounds with bridges and aquaeducts. Having a few more in places where they are most useful shouldn't be much of a change.

[arvisrend]

Othrensis has a mages guild (i3-336). Doesn't this contradict our guild plans; if so, repurposing?

[Nemon]

I recall removing a guild from or to Othrensis, not much help from my memory hehe. But at least I believe this has been discussed at some point. How important do we want Othrensis to be anyway?

[Yeti]

The Othrensis Guilds were moved to Akamora, I believe.

[Nemon]

That might also be correct, I recall adding a guild in Akamora as well. Somewhere half way into a cliff.

[Why]

Yes, any guilds in Othrensis need to be removed.

[arvisrend]

Dunno how many of these are relevant and how many are "don't show a fool a work half done":

flora_wickwheat_01 TR_Map3 (15,-28) 126212 -225880 1003 "floats"

flora_grass_01 TR_Map3 (14,-30) 115133 -245171 271 "floats"

Terrain_rocks_WG_01 TR_map3 (14,-28) 115559 -222405 1690 "caspers"

ex_wg_cave_entrance_01 TR_map3 (15,-25) 124475 -202413 2495 "caspers"

flora_grass_02 TR_map3 (14,-25) 114953 -199924 295 "float"

flora_stoneflower_02 TR_map3 (14,-25) 114936 -199479 347 "float"

flora_grass_02 TR_map3 (14,-25) 114711 -198261 230 "float"

Also, some stuff from an older file I found in my betacomments file. Might already be fixed:

6/19/2012 (20:18) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/17/2012 (23:03) skraeling Terrain_rocks_AI_02 XXXXXAlmalexia (23,-25) 190219 -197238 28 "casper"

6/19/2012 (22:47) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/17/2012 (23:03) skraeling TR_m3_de_p_chest_indgua TR_i3-33 5750 4083 12689 "several beds missing"

6/19/2012 (22:52) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/17/2012 (23:03) skraeling Ex_MH_Door_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (22,-26) 184514 -212671 1300 "door bleeds in wall"

6/19/2012 (22:52) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/17/2012 (23:03) skraeling Ex_MH_Door_01 XXXXXAlmalexia (22,-26) 183976 -212133 1300 "door bleeds in wall"

6/19/2012 (22:56) TR_Map_3_A6_Nemon.esp 6/17/2012 (23:03) skraeling in_mud_rock_06 Kanari Pool 4130 4392 14016 "this place needs some secrets"