Alma Interior Planning

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Post by gro-Dhal »

I still think something to mark the spot where Mehrunes Dagon tore through the fabric of reality to enter Almalexia would be interesting. It could look like a normal building on the outside (maybe deliberately disguised so as not to attract cultists), but guarded by Ordinators, and inside would be some sort of of weird Temple setup to ensure nothing else can slip through. Maybe the Mages' Guild would be doing liminal research there. Treat it like the fantasy equivalent of a biohazard site or a UFO crash.

It gives some scope to do outlandish interior work with the MH tileset, and would be a decent plot hook for the Temple, the Guild or any future Dagon cult faction.
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Post by Jule »

I think this is an excellent idea, but I have another idea as for the looks of the interior itself. It should be frightening, like an ugly, festering wound on the face of Nirn itself that will never heal permanently, a piece of the Deadlands forever imprinted on Nirn. (Of course the Tribunal would want to keep something like that hidden from the public; after all, this is the city of light and magic.) I imagine cracked, scorched earth, lava abound, the echoes of Daedric warcries in the background, and around it a magical barrier with priests and warriors standing guard.
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Post by gro-Dhal »

I was thinking it would be completely invisible, but hey ho
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Post by Yeti »

Jule wrote:Do we have a sculptor's workshop? All those statues (and private shrines) have to come from somewhere. Could be a good way to efficiently fill up a bigger interior, a tower for example.
I seem to recall that a sculptor's workshop was already made, though I can't remember exactly where
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Post by Sload »

step 1
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Post by Sload »

step 2

attached is a spreadsheet (in openoffice format, but should work fine with excel), containing info about every claim associated with narsis. it contains this data:

Interior ID: the claim's ID#
Local Map: The local map, as numbered in the imgur file and on the image in the previous post
Local Map ID: the way the claim is identified on the map in question
Status: The claim's current status, which is either "Unclaimed," "Pending," "Claimed," "Reviewing," or one of these two: "Not Revoked," meaning it is an old claim that SamirA had kept in the new Almalexia, or "Old," meaning it is an old claim that SamirA did not expressly decide to keep in the new Almalexia.
Current Description: How the claim is described in its current claiming info; "??" means it was not described meaningfully there.

step 3: Now that Almalexia's interiors have been appropriately mapped, an actual plan needs to be developed; Adanorcil made a post in the detailing claim that can be a good start.

step 4: Once a plan is developed, check each interior to see if it fits that plan, for buildings without set interiors, look in the interiors labelled "Old" to see if any of them are workable for those ints.

step 5: Then, all the building for which there is no suitable interior made, create a claim and have them made.
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Post by Sload »


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Post by Sload »

I propose the following neighborhood breakdown. I lean toward less neighborhoods, rather than more, because the more names players have to learn (especially if they aren't on their gamemap), the more confusing this is. I would also totally support completely deleting Kowloon and Taythonis, or only one of those, which seem easy to cut, because I think Almalexia is way bigger than it needs to be; I don't care if they stay either though.

Attached to this post is both a map of these neighborhoods, and an updated claims spreadsheet with an additional column identifying which of these neighborhoods that claim is associated with.

Strider Port: (associated with localmap 5, 6, & 7) The strider port. IDK what else to say

Imperial Quarter: (associated with localmaps 5 & 7) The foreign quarter. Vivec has one, Narsis has one, no reason I can think of that Almalexia shouldn't have one.

Manhattan: (associated with localmaps 7, 8, & 9) See Adanorcil's description of this section as #9 in his post.

Whitehall: (associated with localmaps 10 & 11) See Adanorcil's description of #14 in his post. IDK if the area described in Adanorcil's post as #12 should be separately identified or not.

Kowloon: (associated with localmap 12) See Adanorcil's description of #15 in his post.

Taythonis: (associated with localmap 13) See Adanorcil's description of #16 in his post.

Symmachus Gate/Like A Poor People's Castle: (associated with localmap 1, 2, & 3 / 0, 3, & 4) These two neighborhoods are where my map mainly disagrees with Adanorcil's, rather than just combining areas. His neighboor numbered 1 contains a small manor district in its lower eastern portion, and he doesn't include the interiors around the entrance to Mournhold in any neighboorhood. I would propose that, consistent with his description, these are among the more poor and middle class areas of Almalexia; Symmachus Gate area being the more well off of the two. Symmachus Gate I think of as the burgher's area, because its by the docks; people of low blood status a lots of money.

EDIT: I propose naming A Poor People's Castle "Moon And Star," after Nerevar's ring, because it is on two hills, and moon and star is two things.
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Post by Sload »

so here is the imperial quarter because I figured it was the most stable. Samir already put up some of its interiors and it contains major anchor sites (the guilds) that prevent it from being anything but an imperial quarter.

Imperial Quarter Interiors (present state of affairs)

[url=http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS#5]Local Map #5[/url]
1 - Guild of Mages
(2-5 are not part of the imperial quarter)
6 - Imperial home
7 - Imperial apothecary
8 - Imperial trader
9 - Imperial bookstore
10 - Imperial home
11 - Horatio Gorgonath's follower
12 - Not up yet
13 - Not up yet
14 - Outlander home
15 - Tavern worker
16 - Outlander home
17 - Outlander home
18 - Imperial trader
19 - Imperial home
i3-6 - ??
i3-30 - ??
i3-106 - ??
i3-206 - Chitin and bug shop
i3-210 - Silverware and redware shop
i3-293 - Brothel
i3-611 - Horatio Gorgonath's home
i3-679 - Guild of Fighters

[url=http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS#7]Local Map #7[/url]
(1 & 2 are not part of the imperial quarter)
3 - Not up yet
4 - Not up yet
5 - Not up yet
6 - Not up yet
i3-10 - ??
i3-36 - ??
i3-119 - ??
i3-202 - Dunmer nobel family

Imperial Quarter Proposal of Action

Check for appropriateness: The following interiors need to be checked to make sure that they are appropriate to their current location. The fact that they are probably all in "de" may disqualify all of them if we want to be strict about that (I don't care either way). They also need to be made sure that they match, reasonable well, their exteriors.
  • i3-10
    i3-30
    i3-106
    i3-119
    i3-206
    i3-210
    i3-293
Revoke for inappropriateness: I believe the following interiors have a claim description that is not appropriate:
  • i3-6 (swiftoak has confirmed this interior is crap)

    i3-202 (dunmer nobel family; if this interior is worth keeping, it should be kept in a different location)

    i3-261 (horatio gorgonath's follower; unfortunately a new int, see the next note, plus it is incredibly cheesy and unrealistic for someone to have moved in next door to a writer because they love his work)

    i3-611 (horatio gorgonath; this island is cool and special and should not just be the home of a poet)
Describe and create new interiors: The following interiors need to be put up, either because they haven't been or because their current ints are about to be revoked. Note that unless you are revoking something because it is bad, there is no reason to revoke an old almalexia int to make a new one, just create another int. revoking old almalexia ints just makes this process more confusing.
  • Local 5: i3-6 - this building is in a cool location, on a weird outcropping. whatever it is, it should be appropriate to that.

    Local 5: 11(i3-261), 12, 13, i3-611 - This is an awesome little island. It should be something important, probably the imperial government's representation in Almalexia. i3-611 could be the consul's office - not the office of the Consul himself, which is in Narsis, but a second location of his office wihch is in Almalexia. The others could be related to the Imperial government, such as a Legion office and IDK what else.

    Local 7: 3, 4, 5, 6, i3-202 - These buildings could be anything relevant to the Imperial quarter. We could check for good, old interiors that could be here instead of new ones, but because this is the imperial quarter that seems unlikely.
The Thieves' Guild needs to be located here, unless it is one of the unidentified interiors, some int needs to become the Thieves' Guild. There should probably also be another tavern.
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Post by Sload »

Less formulated than the previous post, but Manhattan. Come up with descriptions of each int.

Manhattan

[url=http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS/layout/grid#7]Local Map #7[/url]
7 - Manor/Culture
8 - Tower
9 - Tower
10 - Manor
11 - Culture
12 - Manor/Culture
13 - Culture
i3-89 - Alma Rula's House

[url=http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS/layout/grid#8]Local Map #8[/url]
1 - Restaurant
2 - Culture
3 - Horatio Gorgonath's Manor (needs minor editing to fit)
4 - Culture
5 - Tower
6 - Tower
7 - Manor/Restaurant
8 - Ordinators

[url=http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS/layout/grid#9]Local Map #9[/url]
1 - Greenhouse
2 - Culture
3 - Culture
i3-36,4

[url=http://imgur.com/a/sIeCS/layout/grid#10]Local Map #10[/url]
1 - Culture
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Post by Jule »

Could you please link to the exterior you're using? I'm only asking because the neighborhood you referred to as #4 (and later merged into Symachus Gates Neighborhood) doesn't have any houses in it in the file I'm using.
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Post by Swiftoak »

If you're referring to the fact there are doormarkers on the map, it's because Samir used an older version of the A6 file to make those maps.

The latest file has no linked interiors IIRC.
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Post by Jule »

Not doormarkers, no. There are some houses in that picture that are entirely missing in the final version of Alma.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Ah those. Samir didn't create a localmap for them so they were probably deleted. Which is a relief IMO, we don't need any more interiors in Almalexia.
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Post by Why »

Adanorcil says "there needs to be a Twin Lamps safehouse in the Foreign Quarter"
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Post by Adanorcil »

Adanorcil also says the following.

For Manhattan, taken from ridiculously wordy post above. Can be filled in where appropriate:

- The St. Delyn Academy of Triune Law (maybe local map 8-4)
Following the example of St. Delyn, the students of the academy are scholar-jurists, schooled in law and ethics under the Tribunal faith. They often also occupy themselves with studies of textual interpretation and religious questions. It attracts many of its students from House Indoril.

- Conservatory (maybe local map 9-3)
A grand school for the study of music, dance, poetry and other arts. Receiving rich funds from House Indoril, the temple and various other institutes, the Conservatory's alumni are highly respected and count some of the country's most renowned artists, past and present, among their number.

- The Zhigat-Sora (maybe local map 9-2):
Zhigat-Sora is a mixture of stylized theatre, dance, music and acrobatics native to the city of Almalexia. The expensive shows that the (eponymous) theatre puts on are popular among (and virtually exclusive to) the city's elite. Apart from entertainment, they provide important socializing opportunities. The Zhigat-Sora is not to be confused with the vacuous Imperial plays sometimes performed in the poor quarters. The performances generally have philosophical undertones and have a loosely defined set of stock characters that play out historical scenes or religious parables (not necessarily involving saints or Triunes). The performance area is in the middle of the room, surrounded by audience. The building itself is a grand example of Indoril architecture, with a magnificent performance hall, and a lavish lobby.
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Post by Sload »

Jule wrote:Could you please link to the exterior you're using? I'm only asking because the neighborhood you referred to as #4 (and later merged into Symachus Gates Neighborhood) doesn't have any houses in it in the file I'm using.
As I told Jule in IRC, so everyone knows, the only reference to buildings there is in Adanorcil's quoted post arguing for their removal. I made reference to buildings south of the gate at the very foot of the ramp, where Adanorcil did not highlight a neighborhood.
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Post by Sload »

The major interiors that are still unsettled in Almalexia.

Local Map 7: http://i.imgur.com/bS6ai.jpg
Local Map 8: http://i.imgur.com/FuVJd.jpg
Local Map 9: http://i.imgur.com/TbKYT.jpg
Local Map 10: http://i.imgur.com/DYsgs.jpg

7#7 : Need ideas for this.

7#10 : I strongly favor this being a manor.

7#11 : Great Temple of the Alma Rula. Seems self-explanatory.

7#12 : Need ideas for this.

7#13 : Need ideas for this.

8#2 : [Name] Conservatory (see Adanorcil's posts).

8#4 : The Zhigat-Sorya (see Adanorcil's posts).

8#7 : I strongly favor this being a manor.

8#8 : [Name], the Ordinator's fortress in Almalexia.

9#2 : Abbey of Saint Delyn of the Laws Ordained
9#3 : Abbey of House Sotha of the Laws Natural
These two abbeys cover the two divisions of Triune law. Both flow directly from the divine authority of the Tribunal, but deal with different things. The Laws Ordained deal with righteous individual behavior. The Laws Natural deal with the structure of the cosmos, society, and history, as they have been put in place by the Tribunal.
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Post by Yeti »

Even though Horatio Gorgonath's manor has been repurposed, I think there still is promise for having a small community of outlander poets/artists in Almalexia.

I remember somebody posting this idea awhile back, not sure who or where, that these guys would have come east to Morrowind to be inspired by its exotic culture. Basically they would play off of orientalism, which, in a nutshell, is the imitation of real world eastern cultures by westerners who, instead of trying to actually understand them, create "prejudiced outsider interpretations of the East", adding fantastical romantic elements.

These kinds of people would naturally gravitate to Almalexia, the most obvious center of Morrowind's culture, to naively misinterpret who the Dunmer are with their work.

So what do think? Good idea? Bad idea? Is there room in Almalexia for people like this? Something about Imperials coming to Morrowind who actually want to be immersed in Dunmer culture, but still failing at understanding them, appeals to me.
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Post by SamirA »

Now this is the kind of stuff I wanted to see way back when. Nice to see Sload coming in with ideas and helping to sort this place out.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

There has been some talk on IRC of this, but I want it on the forums so everyone can see. The discussion in #halfway has suggested the removal of either just the Kowloon district, or both it and that fucking island that isn't Tathyonis but can be identified as such.

These are both somewhat superfluous and could have their general themes and ideas merged into the rest of the city of places that still need int plans.
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Post by Why »

I want the island to stay. It's the prettiest place in the city and the home of a councilor, and the interior on it is modest in size. I don't really have a strong opinion on kowloon, I suppose I like it as a unique-looking and different piece of the city, and I don't really see why there's a need to remove it.
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Because the city is ludicrously huge, and is going to take even our increasingly active int department ages to finish. Kowloon is 22 ints, many of them rather large. Cutting it out would take months off the int development timeframe, not even getting to NPCs. It is also not terribly developed or relevant. The area itself may be nice, but it is a perfect mix of superfluous and out of the way for removal.

As for the island. The island is less immediately relevant as its primary change would be to the overall cell count of the city. The reason I am so in favor of moving the manor onto land though is because, once again, there are a great number of needlessly large ints scattered throughout the city, and moving this manor could remove a handful of them. Horatio Gargonath is already moving to Manhatten I think, couldn't the T-whatevers move there too?

I mean shit, the entire town looks great, but as far as development is concerned I'd like to keep it realistic.
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Post by rot »

A compromise I've seen mentioned a few times is to make those parts unaccessible, both maintaining cohesion in the design of the exterior and reducing the NPCing work needed before the city can be released - the main concerns on both sides of the argument, if I'm not mistaken.

Problem being that it's a terribly inelegant solution. Still, if it's acceptable on principle, then the question could be boiled down to: is the city too big just for now, or too big, period?

(issues arising from a city being too big: see Helnim)
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Post by Thrignar Fraxix »

Helnim is also what happens when a terrible old piece of shit isn't razed and is instead fixed up eternally.

I am not in favor of making an entire district inaccessible, but I was also thinking of proposing that some of the giant ass boring as fuck guard towers that are like 6 stories of general nothingness could be made decorative or inaccessible in at least some cases. Too much is very bad and make the city feel cheap, even though it will be the most time expensive shit ever.
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Post by Swiftoak »

I can go either way. Kowloon is nice, but if it doesn't really add anything except filler to an already massive city, I won't cry to see it go.

I thought we removed most of the guard towers? As for the few that remain, even just reducing the corresponding int to 1-3 floors instead of occupying the entire tower is fine.
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Post by Nemon »

That island has existed a year now, so it's not like there hasn't been time to put up claims for it, or for that matter - the entire fucking city.

For historic value or whatever the hell it's worth I disagree with this.
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Post by roerich »

Could the "Kowloon aspect"/poor and disorganized housing be replaced by smaller dockside shacks? Not an entire cluster of shacks, but a tiny stretch here and there.
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Post by Jule »

In my opinion, both parts of the city should stay, and Kowloon at the very least. But since I see no end to this discussion, I propose a solution: leave these to places alone for the time being, set a time frame in which the rest of the city should have its interiors finished, and if we fail to reach that goal then we should seriously consider removing or repourposing Kowloon and Tathyonis. The reason I prefer Kowloon to stay is because I consider it a perfect backdrop for a Thieves Guild or Cammona Tong related questline, maybe even a turf war. You can't have that sort of action placed dab in the middle of a luxurious plaza; it takes a run-down, condensed part of town for this kind of stuff, and Kowloon is the ideal candidate in my opinion.
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Post by Aeven »

I'd like to give my opinion on the matter.

Thalotheran Estate: The island has a very unique and lovely charm. The family is rich as fuck and actually bought city land and removed it from city jurisdiction, yet live really close to everything they have their power-hungry tentacles attached to. Also, it's hardly difficult to make an interior for.

"Kowloon": It's hard to be entirely objective on this because I did a lot of the work on this place. I feel it's a really good place to show the more truly pauper class of Almalexia reside. Whilst middle/lower class would be living in Moon and Star, this is lower than that. The populace could be considered traditional supporters of House Indoril, in that their housing is freely provided and a lot of foodstuff charity could happen here. In my mind, the interiors here could be rather chaotic (think of large buildings in third-world countries where lots of people have moved in due to war and whatnot), though I realise this may be a large task to complete. I think it would be a bloody shame not to include this in the city, even if it means cordoning it off in the initial release and then adding it in a patch release (similarly to how the current plan is to add M3A8 to the next SE update.)
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Post by Why »

I think the size of the city is fine. It's supposed to be the largest city in the province and one of the largest cities on the continent. Making it overly large compared to all our other cities kind of is the whole point. Now if it were any larger to the point where it actually impeded the development of the surrounding regions, then we'd have a problem. But that's not the case.

In fact, if you want to reduce the workload, axing the island is a silly thing to do as right now all it needs is one medium-sized interior and NPCing, as opposed to redoing the island and the river around it and *then* plan new interiors and NPCs for whatever replaces it, not to mention having me adjust my plans for Indoril again. Besides, I suppose I'm kind of missing the point here but I think axing good and/or cool things to get closer to the next release will set a stupid as hell precedent, and don't give me any "but we cut the southern half off of map 2 to release in time" because that's an entirely different issue. We're talking about removing specific locations from the mod altogether here, not delaying them.

As for Kowloon, I'm less opinionated on that issue. I like the area because it's different, and because it'll allow us to show a bit more of a shady side of town. If it goes I at least want to see it replaced with something that shows signs of similar squalor. If we just want to remove it because we can't handle it and because it'll be too much work, board up the doors and windows, fill the streets with plague rats, tell the player it's off-limits and release a proper version in Almalexia v1.1.

But seriously, the day we start cutting (not delaying) things because they take too much work is the day we should start to question why we're making this mod in the first place. This entire project is a fool's errand, you know it and you love it.
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Post by Stryker »

In terms of Kowloon, I do like Jule's alternative to the argument. I like the potential that Kowloon has for being a shady/poor area of town... But I don't think that anyone would notice if it were gone. I'd hate to see a place like that hold back our release even more.
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Post by Gez »

Why wrote:But seriously, the day we start cutting (not delaying) things because they take too much work is the day we should start to question why we're making this mod in the first place. This entire project is a fool's errand, you know it and you love it.
I concur with this sentiment. If Almalexia is not worth doing well, it's not worth doing at all.

There needs to be a place where a reasonable supply of poor people can be procured so as to sat the Indoril's needs for acts of pointless charity. "Kowloon" seems convenient for that purpose. It still looks rather nice (we wouldn't want the city to look bad) but it's obvious that the residents are poor.

Current plan has group map #1 as a poor district, which is surprising to me since it is the entrance of Mournhold. One would think that would be coveted real estate... People who leave the inner-city get there at the bottom of the ramp. Kowloon and the manor island are the furthest away from the Mournhold, since you have to either go outside the city and trekking through the mountain or to cross the entire city counter-clockwise to reach Mournhold from there. (Really, it's a bit artificial that the city didn't develop more further south.)
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Post by Adanorcil »

Please read this post, because it contains important information concerning Kowloon etc.

Right now, the foremost argument in favor of Kowloon seems to boil down to that it would allow us to show a poor, shady side of the city. This seems to imply that the current plans would not provide that without Kowloon, even though from the very earliest discussions on the Almalexia redesign Moon and Star were slated to do exactly that, with some very good arguments behind it, too.

Allow me to reiterate in brief. Let's take a look at [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=21388]Sload's map[/url]. The area he marked as "Like A Poor People's Castle" has a number of important features. I'll particularly be talking about the area under the old "1" marker.
  • It's near The Enormous Church. Why is this enormous religious building in the very corner of the city? What's it doing there? It was concluded previously that it makes a lot of sense as a "temple for the masses", constructed as a massive charity project thing for the poorest, populous neighborhoods. It fits that way, a sort of respected, maintained jewel in the dilapitated surroundings. Doubles as a sacred neutral parley ground for the warring tongs, too.
  • It's around the docks. Docks require lots of heavy, underpaid labor. Warehouses, shady bars (a Camonna Tong watering hole even), brothels, the works. This is where you'd expect all that.
  • It has the humongous residential blocks (see map linked above, right above "1" marker), the biggest complex in all of town by some margin. How else to explain these than as the obvious and very fitting cheap highrise apartments that would fit the Indoril social model so well? [url=http://i.istockimg.com/file_thumbview_approve/3068714/2/stock-photo-3068714-public-housing-project-new-york-city.jpg]You[/url][url=http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120808215961/fantendo/images/4/48/Reds_big_projects.jpg]know[/url] [url=http://flatrock.org.nz/static/frontpage/assets/money_politics_law/apartment_with_a_view.jpg]the[/url] [url=http://www.midwinter.com/~koreth/russia/peter/apartments.jpg]ones[/url].
  • The argument that the area near the Symmachus Gate would make more sense as a middle-class area than a poor area is a non-issue. No one ever suggested otherwise, because this is in fact a different neighborhood altogether. In fact, Sload distinctly labeled Symmachus Gate as a burgher's area a few posts above. This offers plenty of middle class room, especially if we also make the more roomy northern area of Moon and Star slightly more upscale.
Current plan has group map #1 as a poor district, which is surprising to me since it is the entrance of Mournhold.
This is not correct (and in fact never was, I think). Make sure you're looking at the most recent maps. ;) They are a few posts up in Sload's post.


The idea of doing away with Kowloon for workload reasons has been somewhat misrepresented, I feel. The problem with it is not that it creates extra work, but that it creates extra work without really adding much to the city. Apart from slightly more windy roads, there's not much in it that cannot be found somewhere else as well.

I'd personally say to remove it, because it currently sits there awkwardly and inelegantly, without a role to play in a city that's already plenty large to tell a story with. I understand that people might be fond of its exterior. That's why I'd suggest salvaging it for somewhere else.

If however, we end up keeping it, I'd most strongly argue for not making it the designated poor area, because of all the arguments listed above in favor of other areas. There's plenty of other and frankly far cooler things we could do with it. Maybe it's all Tong headquarters or something special. Jule's solution is also acceptable.


TL;DR
For reasons, I'd argue against including Kowloon, but if it stays, there are very strong and important arguments for not making it the designated poor area over Moon And Star.
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Gez
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Post by Gez »

Oh right, I was going by the numbers in the "step 1" map (aka group map), [url=http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/download.php?id=21382]here[/url], which differ from the other map. Now it makes more sense all around.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Perhaps we can come up with some compromise. Reading Ada's post, I have been swayed to do off with Kowloon, but not delete it.

The idea brought up in IRC is to move Kowloon somwehere else, perhaps on the Thirr river as a new settlement. The area is rocky enough and would fit nicely.The empty space left by Kowloon would be subsituted with a wonderful idea brought up by Adanorcil which is a floating market of some sorts. (No interiors).

Aeven and I came up with the idea of putting visible traces of OM to illustrate the sacking by Dagon.

TL:DR: Replace Kowloon with a floating market with OM ruins. Think about [url=http://www.vietnamonline.com/userfile/news/dangnguyen/2012/07/Mekong%20Delta%20to%20welcome%20more%20than%2011%20million%20visitors%20in%20the%20first%206%20months%20of%202012.jpg]Mekong Delta[/url] with submerged OM ruins in the shadow of Mournhold. [url=http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/thaiflood101211/t15_29029310.jpg]Aeven suggested having the sumberged ruins of an OM temple, similar to a watery version of Angkor Wat[/url].

relevant IRC discussion.
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Post by SamirA »

I would axe Kowloon before anything else. It is an interesting place, but will be hell to finish.
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Yeti
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Post by Yeti »

The way I see it, the Kowloon area is far too cool to axe entirely. Its curving streets and crisscrossing gates create the potential for a really atmospheric location that I'd hate to lose. I especially love the imposing entrance that climbs up into the elevated neighborhood (even if those towers flanking it are a bitch to interiorize). This is why I'd favor either keeping it where it is, or reusing it somewhere else.

Concerning Swiftoak's last post, I have to say the Thirr River is not a good location to re-erect "Kowloon". The Indoril already have a perfectly fine river port at Roa Dyr. They don't need another one. Not that there would room for us to add one anyway. As it currently exists the Thirr is extremely crowed with settlements in the north, and House Indoril's territory doesn't extend far enough for us to add Kowloon further south.

So where should we move Kowloon if we don't keep it as part of the capital? Well, I seem to recall that an Indoril settlement is already planned for northern Map 6. I believe it's called Kogo Aimrah, or something. Why not move Kowloon to that location instead of building a town there from scratch later on? That would push the task of making interiors for it down the road to when we have a few more big releases under our belt. Right now, Kowloon already has the look and feel of a separate settlement anyway. It doesn't match the rest of the city stylistically, and seems really disconnected from it overall.

Without Kowloon Almalexia would still be a large imposing settlement, as befits the capital of Morrowind. Some people seem to feel this isn't the case, and I can understand where they're coming from. Wanting to make Almalexia a truly massive city, one that impresses through sheer size as well as clever design, is a noble cause. That's why I would fully support replacing Kowloon with something a little less interior-heavy, such as a floating outdoor market. Like Adanorcil brought up, however, we already have plenty of designated areas for poor folk and scumbags to reside. Whatever ends up going here, whether its Kowloon or something new, will need to have its own unique identity.

---------------

Anyway, if Kowloon does become Kogo Aimrah, I'd like to see it made into a major den of scum and villainy, much like it's [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City]real world[/url] namesake. Right not the Camonna Tong really don't have a major base of operations on the mainland like they had with the Dren Plantation on Vvardenfell. Perhaps this could be one of their headquarters? A town that's nominally under the control of House Indoril, but which has its day-to-day operations run by a Tong kingpin? Again, this would parallel the real world Kowloon, which was a largely ungoverned settlement existing outside the authority of both the Chinese and British governments before it was demolished.

Edit: Here's [url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=23757&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0]the map[/url] showing where Kogo Aimrah is on one of the development maps from the Map 6 location discussion thread, which we really need to revive someday to finalize some our discussions within it. But let's leave that to another day.

----------------

I see absolutely no reason to remove Thalothren/Taythionis manor. The problems with Kowloon, in terms of workload and concept, are easy to understand, but this area seems entirely harmless. Unlike Kowloon it already has had a sensible purpose established as the home of the Indorils' richest family. Plenty of buildings in Almalexia are larger than it, so it's scope doesn't seem to be a problem. The only part I don't like about it is the wall that sort of half surrounds the estate. What's the point of having a wall on the north and west sides if the east and south are left open? It just look's awkward to me.

Anyway, those are my 2 cents, for whatever they're worth.
Last edited by Yeti on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Jule
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Post by Jule »

If we are to transplant Kowloon to another place and make it a city in itself, then we should make sure its looks still make sense in regard to its new surroundings. It should be someplace where it will be absolutely clear that the city could only have evolved this way, into a dense cluster of highrises. For example, an island in the middle of the river, or a city high up on a hill and protected by steep cliffs. You get the picture.
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Yeti
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Post by Yeti »

How about a cliff overlooking the bend in a river?

Anyway, how easy would it be to move Kowloon if we wanted to?
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