<Swiftoak> so i learned how to model the other day
<Gnomey> That's good.
<Swiftoak> i'd like to get to work fixing the alt orethan and finding a solid concept for the region
<Gnomey> Very good, in fact.
<Swiftoak> haha mostly my skills are still limited to basic things like rocks
<Swiftoak> maybe simple flora
<Swiftoak> i can uvmap decently and vertex paint
<Swiftoak> my first model
<Swiftoak> and hand-made textures
<Gnomey> I personally have a penchant for shrubbery, if you hadn't noticed.
<Gnomey> Tall grasses and the like; bushes.
<Swiftoak> we dont have those
<Swiftoak> idk how hard they would be on the engine though :P
<Gnomey> I'm thinking larger models used spartingly.
<Gnomey> Instead of rocks, mostly.
<Gnomey> Something like TR's AJ shrubs.
<Swiftoak> yeah perhaps
<Swiftoak> i think we need to get into what IS the orethan valley
<Swiftoak> like these regions sort of play a role in the stories of these houses
<Swiftoak> you have the deshaan salt and the dres
<Swiftoak> you have the cragginess of the velothis that informs the martial nature of house redoran
<Swiftoak> we'll come up with something weird to emphasize telvanni's isolation
<Swiftoak> for hlaalu, we show their ability to adapt to different landscapes harsh and not harsh. since we have them placed in harsh regions like the armun and roth roryn
<Swiftoak> and shipal
<Swiftoak> but also not so harsh regions like the TRV, ascadian isles, othrleth woods
<Gnomey> My first thought on Alt Orethan is heavy settlement; both farms and various shrines and tombs.
<Swiftoak> so the landscape there shows the hlaalu's ability to adapt
<Swiftoak> but what is the orethan to indoril
<Gnomey> (And I'm not talking about saint shrines).
<Gnomey> I think it is essentially the motherland to them. Probably the oldest Indoril lands.
<Swiftoak> but you sorta see what i mean about making that connectionb
<Swiftoak> between the visual appearances of our exteriors and the character
<Swiftoak> hlaalu are very flexible and it shows because they can work all these various regions. it fits their character
<Swiftoak> etc. etc.
<Swiftoak> i think we sorta need to touch on that with the indoril
<Gnomey> But returning to that old idea of the different Indoril regions representing different facets of House Indoril,
<Gnomey> Alt Orethan has a fairly naturaly position to be Indoril at its best; in its golden age.
<Gnomey> The Mephalain Mountains are the harsh, almost tribal past, while the Thirr River Valley is the bleak, desperate present/future.
<Swiftoak> sorta yeah
<Gnomey> Lan Orethan is the weakness; the shortcomings of the Indoril.
<Swiftoak> i want to think of the orethan as a singular entitty
<Gnomey> And I have absolutely no clue on Inlet Bog.
<Swiftoak> idk if im fully sold on the idea each region needs to mean something specific to indoril :P
<Swiftoak> could be
<Gnomey> It doesn't.
<Gnomey> Regions need to have a purpose, and that's an easy way to approach giving them a purpose.
<Gnomey> But it would probably not be good to overdo regions having thematic purpsoes.
<Swiftoak> the orethan....i came up with something
<Swiftoak> like the orethan is sorta the ganges
<Swiftoak> you have the thirr which is pretty sacred, but it's more like the economical waterway, where as the orethan is the spiritual one sinc eit flows east and all
<Gnomey> On the topic of the Orethan, I do still like the idea of the locals using the waterways heavily.
<Swiftoak> but distinguish it from the thirr
<Gnomey> The Orethan may not be the most important traderoute, but it might see more travel.
<Swiftoak> it should be sacred.
<Swiftoak> yeah i picture river barges
<Swiftoak> it's not a wide river by any means
<Gnomey> We could change that.
<Gnomey> It should be narrower than the Thirr, though.
<Swiftoak> maybe bathing in the orethan can be some sort of baptism ritual
<Swiftoak> in the temple
<Gnomey> Hm, maybe.
<Swiftoak> im porbably putting too much weight on the spritual aspect though
<Gnomey> Considering the story we have for the Orethan so far, though, I don't see the symbolism.
<Gnomey> That seems more like it would be an Indoril ceremony,
<Swiftoak> what story
<Swiftoak> yeah maybe
<Swiftoak> we have nothing for the tmeple
<Gnomey> which sort of fits with the ritual bath before the arranged marriage.
<Gnomey> For the temple I was thinking whispering shrines, like those instruments I psoted in the Indoril Brainstorming thread.
<Gnomey> those things.
<Gnomey> Then you have ancestral tombs and the occasional Velothi temple in or near a Velothi settlement.
<Swiftoak> ancestral tombs that are not dungeons?
<Swiftoak> better kept perhaps
<Gnomey> Better kept, and looting them has real, severe consequences if discovered.
<Gnomey> As in black-gloved consequences or something.
<Swiftoak> but make it manageable for low level players
<Gnomey> Then maybe pilgrimage hostels along Veloth's road.
<Swiftoak> this is still very much stomping ground for newbs en route to alma
<Swiftoak> maybe one OM ruin somewhere
<Gnomey> Nah, I think ancestral tombs wouldn't necessarily be manageable by low-level players.
<Swiftoak> yeah probably
<Gnomey> A low-level region doesn't always need low-level dungeons.
<Swiftoak> i mean there are tough dungeons near seyda neen
<Swiftoak> so long as they stick to the main road s'all okay
<Gnomey> Morrowind isn't always known for being noob-friendly, anyway.
<Swiftoak> what about flora
<Gnomey> Do you mean new assets?
<Swiftoak> like my idea is wide open plain a la whiterun
<Swiftoak> bu with moar flora
<Swiftoak> yeah but also vanilla stuff
<Gnomey> Yeah, but objects should be placed sparingly.
<Gnomey> Performance concerns.
<Gnomey> We need very good landscape textures, really.
<Swiftoak> i can make those
<Gnomey> Blue-green grasses and the like.
<Gnomey> Not sure how the dirt should look, or the rocks.
<Gnomey> If we aren't using GL rocks.
<Swiftoak> i made a new rock tex
<Swiftoak> similar to the stone of the IND buildings
<Swiftoak> a darker stone
<Gnomey> Yeah, that works a lot better.
<Gnomey> That stone colour is the natural way to go.
<Swiftoak> that grass is also new
<Swiftoak> i tried making it bluer and it seemed awkward
<Gnomey> Should the dirt be darker, though?
<Swiftoak> so i went a bit lighter
<Swiftoak> problem is it's hard to make it not look like a vanilal texture
<Swiftoak> if i darken it it's really too similar to AI
<Swiftoak> unless i make it all brown
<Swiftoak> which doesn't work either
<Swiftoak> so a paler green is what i went with
<Gnomey> Yeah, I was thinking maybe really dark earth.
<Swiftoak> sorta in the same hue as the greenish stuff on the trims
<Gnomey> The grass looks fine to me.
<Swiftoak> yeah there will be variants
<Gnomey> Maybe reddish soil?
<Gnomey> A lot of Morrowind dirt is of the yellowish variety;
<Gnomey> we could give southwestern and central Morrowind in general a bit of a reddish flare, maybe.
<Swiftoak> we have reddishness in the othrleth and shipla
<Swiftoak> i kinda want to emphasize the orethan being this sorta utopia
<Swiftoak> wide plains and bountiful fields for the alt orethan
<Gnomey> Yeah. But they would be distinct, I think.
<Swiftoak> and lushwarm forests in the lower orethan
<Swiftoak> idk it's hard for MW to find a good colour scheme
<Swiftoak> it's all very garish
<Gnomey> Shipal-Shin might be red-desertish,
<Swiftoak> and when you lose the hue, you lose alot of variation oppurtuynities
<Gnomey> while Othreleth would have a lot of deep browns and oranges.
<Swiftoak> it's all different shades of grey :P
<Swiftoak> make it too saturated and iut's compeltely out of place
<Gnomey> Orethan could have deep, lush red and blue-green,
<Gnomey> with maybe palish grass as you have it.
<Gnomey> Still a little bright: https://uffech.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/img_2764.jpg
<Swiftoak> maybe post the ideas to the AO thread?
<Gnomey> Yeah, I'll look for a few good pictures and then do so.
<Swiftoak> idk what slaod feels
<Swiftoak> but i think it's a good time to broach the subject of redoing the alt orethan
<Swiftoak> because any redo of alma
<Swiftoak> will eventually mean significant rework of surrounding landscape anwyays
<Gnomey> The topic is sort of already broached, I think.
<Swiftoak> and we might as well hit it right
<Gnomey> Alt Orethan is already slated for some level of work.
<Swiftoak> yeah i took a look at it
<Swiftoak> it's MAJOR work
<Swiftoak> like the whole area
<Swiftoak> bleeding into meralag and the mainland
<Gnomey> Yeah, but it's unclear if it would be more search-and-replacing type work or something more.
<Swiftoak> i think in some areas (othrensis) it's easier
<Gnomey> Most major work would be around Almalexia, as people seem to want to flatten the hills there, which I am fine with.
<Swiftoak> since the heightmap lends itself to the concept already
<Swiftoak> iut's the eastern areas around alma
<Swiftoak> they're too mountainous
<Swiftoak> even meralag
<Gnomey> Oh right! Agriculture.
<Swiftoak> really awkward smattering of GL/AI/WG
<Swiftoak> i wanted to ask you
<Swiftoak> what's being farmed there
<Gnomey> Did you see the screenshots of my mock-up plugic?
<Swiftoak> i thinbk so
<Swiftoak> yeah this works
<Gnomey> This one very barely shos how I handled the fields.
<Swiftoak> a little too flat, i would see more rolling hills
<Swiftoak> but you generally have the right idea
<Gnomey> Yeah, it is too flat.
<Gnomey> I did hardly any landscape work.
<Swiftoak> we need to talk about what types of rocks we want to use
<Gnomey> The lack of rocks was intentional, though, as I wanted them to be used sparingly in Alt Orethan.
<Gnomey> Rocks and agriculture do not mix.
<Gnomey> I think your sort of ledgy rocks are a good idea, though.
<Swiftoak> yeah thats wha i meant
<Swiftoak> it's not so rocky
<Swiftoak> thats sorta why i made them
<Swiftoak> could not evben be rocks
<Swiftoak> but dirt ledges
<Gnomey> And I do still like the idea of rare, scattered mini-mesas.
<Swiftoak> i need a pic :P
<Gnomey> I'm thinking something like this without the massive slopes: http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/120283/350wm/C0056645-A_butte_or_small_mesa,_Australian_desert-SPL.jpg
<Gnomey> just the top rocky bit.
<Gnomey> Most mesa images are far too large in what they show.
<Gnomey> And too dry.
<Swiftoak> these work well in shipal shin
<Gnomey> But basically I mean small, low-ish cliff cylinders covered with vegetation.
<Swiftoak> semi-isopalted rock outcroppings
<Swiftoak> esp where the areas start transitioning to moutnainous areas
<Gnomey> I'm almost wondering whether those would work better in Telvannis, though.
<Swiftoak> the valley is ringed by low ridges and mountains
<Swiftoak> to the south the salt cliffs of deshaan rise out from the scrubland
<Swiftoak> to the north and west mountains seperate it from the inlet bog and TRV
<Swiftoak> and to the east a low ridge drops into the lan orethan
<Gnomey> For central Morrowind, I generally think of Persian painting like that one, but lusher.
<Gnomey> By the way, I would like to see your landscape textures with Adanorcil's Nedothril Coast flora.
<Gnomey> Maybe a very bluish and lush scrub texture to match those?
<Gnomey> As it stands, there needs to be some sort of transition between the models and your grass texture
<Swiftoak> yeah thats why
<Swiftoak> i thought adjusting the bamboo
<Swiftoak> adan doesnt even want to use it
<Swiftoak> he thinks it would be better in the deshaan
<Gnomey> That would work too.
<Swiftoak> we can make something better
<Gnomey> I acually imagined the bamboo as being about 1/10 the size from the first picture I saw.
<Swiftoak> what we're gonna do for our regions from now on
<Swiftoak> is this
<Swiftoak> we're gonna make clearly defined "Asset Kits"
<Swiftoak> for each region
<Gnomey> That is the way to go.
<Swiftoak> or TR_flora_AO_whatever_01
<Swiftoak> our exterior devs will know what to use
<Swiftoak> and where it is approproiate
<Swiftoak> alongside a sample region palette ESP
<Swiftoak> and design document
<Swiftoak> just like vanilla
<Gnomey> I just gathered five different examples of soil colour and am now left wondering whether anyone will care about it...
<Gnomey> Ooh, I hit the jackpot: http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/images/savanna.jpg
<Swiftoak> im not sure about the red
<Swiftoak> the red is for the othrelth shipal and southwest
<Gnomey> Though with the latter iamge the backdrop is too dry, while with the former there are too many trees.
<Gnomey> I'm not sure about it either, but I'm aiming for a deeper red, like this: http://www.ourochreway.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/IMG_1033.jpg
<Swiftoak> why red at all
<Gnomey> Brown looks too conventional, something greyish or yellowish generally too dry.
<Gnomey> Red often looks rich, but also, to most people, a little less familiar.
<Gnomey> I'm also considering yellow, but it's a hard sell for me: http://www.vandonkelaar.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/vanDonkelaar_ebyOchre-2.jpg
<Gnomey> Black doesn't really work for Alt Orethan, in my opinion.
<Swiftoak> it's hard to make contrasting colours look good in MW
<Swiftoak> why not just green
<Gnomey> I think it can be made to work. Green soil?
<Swiftoak> like pale green and stuff
<Swiftoak> well we can do brown soil too
<Swiftoak> or muddier green
<Swiftoak> red will be jarring
<Gnomey> That sounds even more difficult to get right to me.
<Swiftoak> idk we hsould discuss this
<Gnomey> Yeah, I'm working on a post.
<Gnomey> Much like the images I linked, though, the red would generally not be visible.
<Gnomey> The grass textures would be dense, and you wouldn't see any soil in them.
<Gnomey> Unpaved roads and riverbeds are the main thing we need to consider when it comes to soil colour, and farmland.