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Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

So I made a thing. Now I know what y'all are probably thinking: It's too early or premature. Hear me out. I'm about the last person who would do things prematurely, however I have noticed the discussion in current sections has gotten somewhat stale, so I thought about starting the ball on the Othrleth region. I think we actually have a fairly good visual concept of the area, and quite a few assets done. This thread is meant to compile past discussions into a format that complies with our Master and Sectional Planning. I have made a document attempting to consolidate our plans for this region.

I am proposing opening a new section just for this region. The rationale being to put our system to the test, as currently our sections deal with finished content in some way. I would like to see how this system works with a region that has not been made yet. I am not proposing we do this carelessly. There's still quite alot to plan and figure on all fronts, I just want to get the ball rolling on that discussion. I'll post my document and my thoughts in a subsequent post.



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_________________
"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
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Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 5:57 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

This seems good on a first read. Based on comments by others, I might propose one or two things, but on the whole this seems a good way forward.
_________________
<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:07 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

Thoughts.

Now I realize the way I put this foward opens up alot of potential discussion avenues. This thread is meant for the General Brainstorming of the region, not necessarily character specifics. This is why I want to open a new section, where issues such as settlements and roads get their own threads. And of course the further fleshing out of our Hlaalu concept which is also in Master.

Things to Figure Out
These are the master and sectional documents relevant to the hypothetical "Othrleth Woods" section. Once we have sufficient information in these documents, and the appropriate assets (which I'll adress later), I can make a mockup file, and we can start opening up claims, which should infuse some much needed energy into our Exteriors and Interior development sections.

[Faction] House Hlaalu
[Region] Othrleth Woods
[Settlement/III] Ud Hleryn
[Settlement/III] Seryn

Things needed to be Done
Assets: Someone needs to conceptualize the rocks in this region and make them. I don't think this will require much effort or time, and I volunteer to do this if there's enough interest. We have concept art and assets for the area that have already been produced, so we have a good start already. We also should figure out if these existing assets need to be tweaked.

Finalizing Region Plan: This is obviously important. I encourage people to give feedback on my base document, and discuss things based on the headings in that document. It will be easier to follow that way. Also don't get into the details/length about individual aspects of the region as these can be discussed in their own threads once we open the section.

Gnomey also had some thoughts which he PMed me about, so I'll post them here for you all to comment on. I personally agree with most of his points.

Gnomey wrote:
I see your pretty map and raise you an artifacted MS Paint edit of said map. My thoughts on the .pdf ended up being fairly extensive, but for the most part do not affect the actual written concept for the region, which I agree with by-and-large. I'd want to discuss this on IRC anyway, but as there's a lot to talk about I thought it more convenient to have this as a basis.



Regional Borders:

1. I shifted the mountains up a little around Kragenmar, both because I think Kragenmar should be included in the Othreleth region and to reflect the current topography. However, I think the stretch of Othreleth around Kragenmar should be fairly atypical, with few trees. This would be a good place to stuff some older, larger plantations. (The main Hlaalu plantations until they managed to get their land on the Thirr). There could be a bit of Cyrodiil-looking flora here near the pass, maybe.
2. I also moved the southern border up by one cell, just because I want to make a little more room for Shipal-shin. The change doesn't really affect much. If I understood you correctly, Shipal-shin would form the border between Othreleth and the Deshaan. Is that correct?



Roads:

1. fairly straight road between Kragenmar and 'Checkpoint', providing the most direct route possible between Kragenmar and the Thirr River Valley. This intentionally runs parallel to the Ashlands road.
While this road would be a major caravan route, the short eastern segment between 'Checkpoint' and where the road splits off north to the Armun Ashlands would be winding, rolling and bandit-ridden, limiting the amount of goods that can effectively be transported along it and the general convenience of using that route. Many caravans would opt to take the Ashlands route if they were heading straight to Andothren, as it has fewer bandits, is generally smoother going and presents a more direct route. Larger caravans headed for the Thirr River Valley would generally opt to take a detour to Saint Seryn and continue by ship.
2. mainroad along Othreleth moved over to south bank, replacing the dirt road, in reflection of the above changes. This road provides a fairly direct and very safe route between Kragenmar and Narsis.
3. mainroad between the two aforementioned mainroads, passing through Saint Seryn, as a matter of convenience and to maintain Saint Seryn's position as a (minor) nexus of trade.
4. additional dirtroads, added both to fix the dearth of dirt roads resulting from the above changes and, naturally, for convenience.
5. I also added some of the roads around Kragenmar that currently exist in the Map 6 plugin.



Bridges

I like your idea of Saint Seryn essentially being the terminus for west-bound ships (though smaller boats would probably be able to continue farther), but think that eastern Othreleth should then be made to reflect that, meaning that any crossings should be able to accommodate large ships.
As such, my suggestions:
1. solid, perhaps dam-like bridge at Saint Seryn, perhaps opening up to docks on the eastern side. Cranes, caravansary and all that.
2. ford north of Saint Seryn, just because I like fords and Morrowind doesn't have any.
3. high bridge, with either Shipal-shin-style rocky outcroppings on either end or Hlaalu towers, perhaps with a harbour chain spanning between them.



Settlements:

1. Kragenmar is now included. It probably requires few exterior changes, but I've never looked at it too closely.
2. Saint Seryn is two cells and has greater importance. It would be a bustling market and trade town.
3. Ud Hleryn has been moved down slightly due to my changes. It still has a prominent position on several traderoutes, and would remain more prominent than Saint Seryn.
4. Ald Iuval and Ald Marak are now on the map. They are, at this point, essentially (probably) understaffed Redoran outposts.
5. I added a small port north of Ald Iuval. While it and Ud Hleryn technically stand in opposition to the Redoran settlements, I don't think they should really be especially fortified. (Possible harbour chain aside). They represent Hlaalu attempts to bypass the Redoran outposts, as well as controlling access to important waterways.
6. 'Checkpoint' is a small Hlaalu trade town, like Suran, but poorer. As with Saint Seryn, it links the land route from Kragenmar to the sea route of the Thirr, as opposed to Indal-ruhn, which links the land route of the Thirr River Valley to the sea route of the Thirr.
7. While I agree that there should be a few more scattered settlements (Tier V and maybe Tier IV), I do not think they necessarily need to lie along the Othreleth itself, as long as they are located on a road. Plantations, on the other hand, should mostly be found on the banks of the Othreleth.



Dungeons:

I mostly agree with you here. I very much like the idea of there being Dunmer Strongholds in this region. Velothi towers work best in locations with uneven elevation, so probably nearer the borders. Dunmer Strongholds, however, built on artificial platforms as they are, are really designed for flatter areas, and in my opinion should be located in the actual floodplains, though not necessarily near the Othreleth itself. I personally think they should virtually all be hostile, though perhaps one or maybe two strongholds near or on a road could still act as layover posts.
For ancestral tombs, there should be a few low-level Hlaalu tombs around Kragenmar and Narsis. Maybe there could be a cluster of long-abandoned Redoran tombs around Lake Coronati or something.



I personally think shacks should be used very sparingly in the region, and as far as Velothi goes I assume the set would only be used for ancestral tombs and Velothi towers. And probably the occasional Velothi temple.

In general, my suggestions appear to make Othreleth more settled than how it (at least to me) was presented in your document, where settlement is mostly restricted to the banks of the Othreleth. This is very much intentional: Othreleth exists between the likely fairly empty (other than Narsis, of course) Shipal-shin and the vacuous Armun Ashlands regions. At the same time, Othreleth represents the only reasonably fertile land House Hlaalu controlled until acquiring the western chunk of Indoril lands, and is indeed the most fertile region in Morrowind west of the Thirr River Valley. While I do think there should be deep, dense stretches of forest, primarily east and southwest of Saint Seryn, I don't really think the region as a whole should come off as untamed.

~Gnomey


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-Hippocrates
Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 6:11 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Great plan Swiftoak. You've included a great amount of detail and planning.

Spur-of-the-moment idea for a unique creature: Some sort of Guar-sized insect that grows mushrooms on its back. Perhaps the Dunmer domesticate it as a kind of mobile edible mushroom garden.

I'll have more to add when I have time.

EDIT: I prefer Ud Hleryn spanning the mouth of the Othreleth River like on Swiftoak's map.

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Last edited by Yeti on Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:02 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Rats
Lead Developer
03 Jul 2012



Ald Marak or Ald Iuval could be a Dunmer Stronghold; probably under hostile occupation (necromancer, goblin, bandit, whatevs) which the Redoran are trying to conquer back.

Great plan.

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Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:37 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

Such reconquering would actually be a fun mission to follow up by tidying up the place (mostly lighting I'd guess, maybe some containers) and restaffing it with Redoran troops.
_________________
<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:43 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

The Redoran forts should use Redoran architecture to strongly signify the faction's presence in the area. We don't have any other Redoran settlement outside overtly Redoran lands, so they should make an impact here.
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Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 7:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I agree that the settlements should be Redoran. The idea of reconquering a Dunmer stronghold is worth holding on to, though. Maybe it could work for the Redoran-Nord conflict up north?

But something worth remembering is that Dunmer strongholds are not, strictly speaking, strongholds. They are not primarily defensive structures, as such.

_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
Post Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:33 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

Good stuff, I'd like to work on this exterior as soon as claims open up and resources are available. Liberumavis' concept art for this place was really good in my opinion, and although we shouldn't aim for Avatar-esque overblown mushroom visuals we should aim high in terms of creative usage of plant based verticality. Proper lighting and you have yourself a stew.
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Post Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:28 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Aeven
Lead Developer
17 Aug 2008

Location: Groningen

In my opinion, the actual mushrooms could use some work. But this shouldn't hinder development, as long as the shapes remain the same/similar.

The 'leaves' of the shrooms could be less cartoony, and use a proper texture rather than greyscales with vertex colouration.

_________________
<~TF|> I saw the meat and I could not resist haplo
<Aeven> you couldn't resist Haplo?
<~TF|> wow that could be misquoted

<Nemon> I've never understood the way of weed

<~Haplo> I like cheese. I like cheese alot. yes. truly, in fact I love the cheese

<+SamirA> butt hat is the endgame
Post Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:06 pm Send private message       Send e-mail       Reply with quote                   up  
Mwgek
Developer
11 Apr 2008



I just want to mention that the assets in the TR_data for this area are not of a very good quality. Maybe I can be of help if we reach consensus on what models we want etc.
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Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

I had no idea they were in data, I thought there were still in Objects: Finished. In any case, I would hope we want to use them all, since any new assets are welcome, provided they're of good quality. Perhaps you can specify which ones and what needs to be done with them? We're pretty sure all of them were approved, but I recall you mentioning something was wrong with them so yeah, any help would be appreciated. Smile
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-Hippocrates
Post Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I should probably post this after a good night's rest, not before one, but ah, what the heck.

Here is my proposal for settlements in the Othreleth Woods. I have included a proposal for the Othreleth travel network (barring Guild Guides and any propylon chambers we may or may not include in the region) mostly to explain the number of settlements: they are needed for a well-rounded travel network that isn't just a single linear route. I also marked the settlements in which the player can rent a bed with a purple dot, as that seemed like useful information.
I also included the data for Vvardenfell for comparison. Especially note the density of settlement in western Vvardenfell compared to the Othreleth Woods; I'm basically suggesting that Hlaalu lands should have a fairly small population, especially compared to the wealth of the House.


(My thanks to Swiftoak for providing the base map I worked off of).

Map Notes:

Ships:
-Narsis could possibly have a ship connection directly to Aldmar, on Lake Andaram.
-once Nav Andaram (IV) is built, travel services -- originally located at the ferry wharf (7) -- are relocated to Nav Andaram.

Silt Strider:
-Ald Erfoud (G) should only have one northward destination, which would then probably branch out to Andothren and Kartur.
-Almas Thirr should offer a full four silt strider as well as ship destinations; probably two on each side of the Thirr in the former case.
-Narsis should probably have two eastward connections; or rather probably one eastward connection and one northward connection on the right side of the Thirr, leading to the ferry wharf (7) after one or two stops.


---

Settlements in italics are outside of the Othreleth Woods. They are mostly included to round out the travel network and provide a clearer idea of the population distribution in the region. There should probably be more Hlaalu settlements east of Lake Coronati, (though probably very few), and I would consider adding one or two small settlements north of the Armun Ashlands. (That's an idea for another thread, though).
I'm now of the opinion that shacks should only be used for lone recluses living in the wilderness and slaves, within the scope of the Othreleth Woods region. I think making near-exclusive use of the Hlaalu tileset would better communicate the wealth of House Hlaalu and the House's complete dominance over the region.

Tier I (Narsis):
The only Hlaalu Tier I city is naturally Narsis, the House capital.
Silt Strider to: (B), Ud Hleryn (I), east...
Ship to: Ud Hleryn (I), (III), Ferry Wharf/Nav Andaram (7/IV)


Tier II (Kragenmar):
Tier II settlements administer over the surrounding countryside; basically everything south of Almas Thirr, barring Shipal-shin, in the case of Kragenmar. Plenty of services, plenty of rooms to let, guilds, etc.
Silt Strider to: (D), Seryn (II) and (E)

Tier IIIs:
Tier IIIs form part of the trade network. They often offer a very good array of services as a result. They generally have a lot of houses; a lot of Hlaalu live in Tier III settlements.

I. Ud Hleryn - on the larger end of Tier IIIs, Ud Hleryn contains the only bridge spanning the Othreleth downriver of Seryn (II), but also an immense river chain which can be lowered to block access to or from the Othreleth. Not strictly a trade town, Ud Hleryn does collect a lot of tolls from passing merchants, and in general is very wealthy. It would contain an excellent array of services, as well as a room to let.
Silt Strider to: Narsis, (B), (F)
Ship to: Narsis, Seryn (II), Almas Thirr and Ferry Wharf/Nav Andraram (7/IV)

II. Seryn - the smallest of Tier IIIs, I think this should have a strong industrial focus; it should not necessarily be very player-friendly, and would probably not offer rooms to let, though it may have a tavern. (Several Vvardenfell Tier IIIs do not have rooms to let, so there is a precedent for this). This is where goods (mostly) from Cyrodiil are transferred onto ships, and goods bound (mostly) for Cyrodiil are transferred onto land. Services would probably be more geared towards local dock hands, but there could be quite a few outdoor merchants plying their wares.
Silt Strider to: (B), (D), Kragenmar, (F)
Ship to: Ud Hleryn (I)

III. (trade town) - sort of like Suran, but with dingy houses and less money. Its main industry is loading stuff on and off of ships, but it probably offers several services, including a place to sleep; perhaps more than one. Probably home to a rather earthy crowd of travellers, sailors and the like. If anyone of importance lives here -- which is unlikely -- that person would be living here expressly to keep a low profile.
Ship to: Narsis, Ferry Wharf/Nav Andaram (7/IV), Almas Thirr, Indal-ruhn (H)

IV. Nav Andaram - player stronghold
Ship to: Narsis, Ud Hleryn (I), (III), Indal-ruhn (H)
Boat to: Ferry Wharf (7)



Tier IVs:
Tier IV and V settlements would generally have an industrial theme. Resources are extracted from mines or plantations, and then brought to Tier IV/V settlements, where they are generally processed, often into wares. From there they are shipped on to Tier III-or-higher settlements. Note that the actual logistics are not very important; this is mainly to give Hlaalu settlements a theme and purpose.

A. Shipal-sharai - safe haven for caravans entering and leaving Morrowind. Probably contains a trader, maybe outdoor merchants, and a bed to let. It is nestled in a canyon.

B. (lumber town) - lumber is sent here from the surrounding area to be processed and loaded onto barges/rafts from where it enters the trade network. May contain carpenter industry or something. Services may be limited to a tradehouse.
Silt Strider to: Narsis, Ud Hleryn (I), Seryn (II) and (D)

C. (ore mining town) - contains a lucrative mine, possibly a glass or diamond mine or something. May have a jeweler, should have a trader, and also has a bed to let. Is otherwise incredibly isolated.

D. (brewery town) - services probably include a bed to let, a tradehouse or outfitter and maybe the brewery could serve as an alchemist's, too, or something, though the tavern's publican would probably already have that covered.
Silt Strider to: (B), Seryn (II), Kragenmar and (E)

E. (agricultural town) - where the produce of all the surrounding (mostly riverside) plantations is brought to either be transported to Kragenmar or Seryn (II). Contains a general merchant of some sort and little else of note.
Silt Strider to: (D) and Kragenmar

F. (highland town) - a town nestled among rolling hills, on the larger end of Tier IV; it's a resting place for travellers leaving the Armun Ashlands. It may have some sort of mining industry, or perhaps pottery or something. Other than a bed to let, it should have some form of general merchant. Probably has a manor.
Silt Strider to: Ud Hleryn (I), Seryn (II), (G) and Almas Thirr

G. Ald Erfoud - stop for caravans and wanderers crossing the Armun Ashlands. Poor, isolated, offering limited services. It probably relies heavily on funding from the Hlaalu Council Company to stay afloat. This has a manor and bed to let, I think...
Silt Strider to: (F) and north...

H. Indal-ruhn - place where goods are moved to and from ships from and onto land. Heavily involved in smuggling. Has a trader and manor; rather poor by Hlaalu standards.
Ship to: (III) and Ferry Wharf/Nav Andaram (7/IV)



Tier Vs:
Tier V settlements would include hamlets of no more than six interiors, (probably less), outposts and plantations. Othreleth plantations are not included in the map or list; they should mostly be located west of Seryn (II), and either on the banks or north of the Othreleth, but beyond that they should just go wherever they fit without looking silly.

1. (industry hamlet) - depending on its surroundings, this might produce stuff like glassware, redware, stoneware, etc. There might be an outfitter.

2. (egg mining hamlet) - a fairly large eggmine, its produce sent mostly to Kragenmar, from where it continues on to Cyrodiil. No services offered.

3. (outpost) - a caravansary and outpost. The guardsmen based here patrol the crossroads and the nearby waters, collecting tolls from merchants. The only way to bypass them would be to cross the Armun Ashlands to the north or take a lengthy southward detour along a long, bumpy dirt road that goes through dense woods.

4. (industry hamlet) - various wares are produced using local resources, probably mostly farm-grown stuff. Baskets, textiles, etc. Might include an outfitter or tradehouse; maybe a clothier or something.

5. (ore mining hamlet) - may contain some form of production, such as a smelter. No blacksmith, though; there are no services.

6. (fishing hamlet) - probably home to some small-time smugglers, otherwise unimportant.

7. (ferry wharf) - just a wharf offering ship travel (until Nav Andaram is built, or at any rate until the wharf gets destroyed) and a ferry to Nav Andaram.
Ship to: Narsis, Ud Hleryn (I), (III), Indal-ruhn (H)
Boat to: Nav Andaram (IV)

8. (outpost) - has a mine and a shady owner with links to the Camonna Tong. The mine is actually just the front for a very large but straight tunnel leading west to the Armun ashlands. The tunnel may have natural offshoot-caves. It is used for smuggling and is a (possibly open to Hlaalu members) secret.

9. (outpost) - gateway to Othreleth, keeping the ashland rabble out.



Edit: I just realized that temples would also be worth including. I may update the map, but for now text will have to do.

In Vvardenfell, every non-Imperial Tier III-or-higher settlement had a temple. Aside from those, there was a temple in Vos and Ghostgate, which are Tier IV Velothi/Temple locations.
As such, the same should should probably go for the Hlaalu settlements of the Othreleth Woods. Nav Andaram (IV) and Seryn (II) could be exceptions, though, the former because it is a new settlement and the latter because it is more of an industrial port than a town.

Edit2: I have taken Shipal-sharai out of the travel network after getting some feedback from Swiftoak. I will update the map to reflect these two edits.

Edit3: Map updated. I also decided to shift (D) to make the travel network look a little less like a game of cat's cradle, and because bridge towns are always nice.

_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
Post Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:20 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

Alright this is my second (and hopefully close-to-final draft, incorporating the points raised here, as well as a pretty updated map and sections expanding on the settlement spaces in this region. I only think Kragenmar needs a proper doc of its' own. Also ignore the last two unfinished parts of the document, which come after assets are produced (I plan on documenting appropriate texture usage to ensure consistency across claims.)


Othreleth Woods [Region Plan].pdf
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"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
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Post Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:45 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

My main issue with the document is a very minor one: I think Hlan Oek should be a fairly old settlement, existing at a time when Indoril still controlled the left bank of the TRV. It either would have been a Hlaalu town then, in which case it was a final toll gate of sorts for goods coming into Morrowind, or may have been a Redoran outpost, in which case it was the final line of defense should the Waters' March be overrun.
Its relative size and importance may be a more recent development, though.

I agree with the rest of the document, though I'm still not entirely sure whether Hlaalu need a new 'crop'.

_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
Post Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:24 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

Should it be Uld Hleryn? Ud seems a bit out-of-place.
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Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I imagine it to be a sort of dialectic thing. Redoran might say Uld, while Hlaalu would say Ud. I don't think either alternative sounds bad, personally.
_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
Post Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:44 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

I think at least one new crop is needed for the sujamma wineries. I do not want this to be another corkbulb region. As for the other farms, they can either grow this crop, a potential second new crop, or something from vanilla that isn't corkbulb and doesn't grow in either the TRV/Ascadian regions (and it should match the colour palette we're aiming for here).

Plants aren't too hard to make provided we have a good visual idea what we want. Also, this region is half the size of Vvardenfell, so I do want it to be something unique and interesting for the player to explore.

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"Idleness and lack of occupation tend - nay are dragged - towards evil."
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Post Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:54 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

The point that the crop should match the region is a very good one.

There is something else I forgot to mention, though: Daedric ruins were probably where Chimer worshiped and performed ceremonies and such. One would, as such, expect to find them around places the Chimer settled.

I think there should be several Daedric ruins in the Othreleth, but perhaps small, relatively low-level, and deep in the woods, away from the roads; or some combination of the above.

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Post Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:21 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Nemon
Developer Emeritus
18 Oct 2003

Location: Bergen

It's a good draft.
Now, is it correct to assume we're changing the Othreleth Forest to the Othreleth Valley? If so, are you planning a revision of the armun/oth-border in order to further wall off those two regions? As of now, or at least the heightmap I left you, the armun/oth border is not very believable, since it's vanillaesque in its nature, and upon in game inspection not very sensible. It's a small hill separating a barren ash ridden region from a lush mushy forest. Also, if the Othreleth is supposed to be a valley I presume that's what you're planning, since the plan shows small rivers contributing to a larger river flowing SE towards the Narsis area.

Looking forward to Othreleth claims, though. I'll grab a few.

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Post Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:53 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Terrifying Daedric Foe
Developer
26 Aug 2010

Location: England

Gnomey wrote:
There is something else I forgot to mention, though: Daedric ruins were probably where Chimer worshiped and performed ceremonies and such. One would, as such, expect to find them around places the Chimer settled.

I think there should be several Daedric ruins in the Othreleth, but perhaps small, relatively low-level, and deep in the woods, away from the roads; or some combination of the above.

Gnomey makes a good point.

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Post Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:35 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

Well I use the terms interchangeably, but there's no intention for it to be called a Valley. It's a forest in a valley, and the region name is Othreleth Woods (it's already in Data too).

The Armun-Othreleth border as mentioned in the document won't be hills, but the ashlands will gradually slope down into the valley. We wanted to try something other than hills and abrupt region changes. The idea is that the ash is slowly creeping southward into the valley, and that the transition is much less abrupt.

To the south as you move away from the river, the land will generally slope up and become more scrubby until it reaches the Shipal-Shin to the south and west, which will be dominated by tall cliffs and mesas.

As for you taking claims, fuck yeah. It would be good to have you back. Judging from the responses in this thread, it seems that a lot of people back this plan, so we'll probably start asset planning/production soon. I would like Mwgek to chime in on what he feels is the issue with the current mushroom assets, and whether he or someone else can fix them soon. I'm working on rocks for the region right now, and will also get to doing the ground textures. After that, we'll put together a kit of these assets to be merged into Data, after which I can start opening claims for the area (once I finish working with the height map, which I'll get to soon!)

I think the first priority for this area is to create a new section(s) for it, so we can start planning area-specific things in greater detail (height maps, roads, towns, dungeon distribution, etc). It would be a good idea to have these things sorted out so claimants can easily refer to them while working on their respective claims. I will also need to adjust existing claim boundaries so that they roughly conform to these boundaries.

So far I'm proposing we open a single Othreleth Woods planning section. This is quite a large section, and I initially thought about two sections (one focused on Kragenmar and another focused on the Thirr areas), but for the most part, unlike the TRV, thematically this large area can be planned as a single section split into two merges (when we do interiors NPCs and stuff).

Here are my proposed sectional boundaries for the area. The western half contains Kragenmar and Seryn, alongside the border mountains. The Eastern half focuses on the North shore of Lake Andaram (TRV), Nav Andaram, and the towns of Ud Hleryn, Othmura, and Hlan Oek. Again, these can either be 2 sections, or 2 halves of the same section.

I think we need to open this forum immediately, before we even start making claims and stuff. There are still outstanding issues like ruin placement, farms, fast-travel, etc that we need to discuss.



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Post Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Haplo
Lead Developer
30 Aug 2003

Location: Celibacy

I have moved all of the non-Othreleth specific posts and discussion to this thread:

http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=24686

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Post Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:54 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

So I managed to find the time to read up on the posts that were made before they were split off, and I think good points were made, and I'm willing to make adjustments to the plan if that's what people want. Sorry it took so long to post, I needed some time to gather my thoughts.

The major sticking point here doesn't seem to be the basic concept of the region, but moreso specific details, like the balance between trees and open plains, among other things. I think it would be a good idea to open a new forum where these things can be discussed in individual threads (much like the other sections). I think a new forum for this region needs to be made, because there are many issues to deal with before this area starts production, and they probably need their own threads. I don't want to rush this.

I'm open to making this more of an open valley, instead of a forest. This area is really big though, so I think we should mix the two somehow, with the main corridor generally consisting of deforested plains, with only a few clusters of trees. This makes sense as most of the settlement in this area is concentrated around the river, lots of farms and wineries. There should still be some mushroom forests on the edges of this region though, which are generally a little more dangerous than the main corridor through the area. I think this best represents Sload's difficulty plan, though again that's just my take on it. This area is big enough IMO that we can have a mixture of both open plains and clusters of wooded areas for variety.

http://mongabay-images.s3.amazonaws.com/14/GP0STO8KS.jpg
http://www.bardotbooks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Devastated-Arabian-Forest.jpg

Around the transition area, the forest would thin out as the elevation increased. Pretty much like the picture that was posted here: http://i.imgur.com/vuEsCTg.png but with more cliffs and a more dramatic increase in elevation. Further south you have stuff like this. http://tortofly.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/badlands5ef.jpg

I do not know if the flora should be pines though. I'm okay with extending pines further south of Kragenmoor in southern areas, but I already feel they're used heavily in our northern regions, and I want the mountains here to have a distinct character from the Velothi mountains further north.

Anyways, I don't think it was ever my intention to make this completely wooded, as I agree there are better areas to do that.

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Post Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:51 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Theminimanx
Lead Developer
26 Jan 2014

Location: GMT +1

We now have a seperate Othreleth sub-forum. Maybe move this thread there? http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewforum.php?f=231
Post Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:13 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Swiftoak
Developer Emeritus
02 Feb 2005

Location: Kah-nah-duh

The basic region plans are part of the master plan, because sometimes they cross sectional boundaries. This is a general brainstorming thread, and I believe for the most part, people like my concept.

The parts that people disagree with should be discussed in new threads in the new forum, that are specific to the region. Things such as local dungeon distribution, town concepts, local topography and flora, assets, should be planned in the new section forum. This isn't a means to stop discussion, but simply to organize it more effectively. Planning isn't finished yet.

This thread will stay open for general brainstorming though.

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Post Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:15 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
sasquatch2o
Developer
15 Jul 2014



This is good news. I support Swiftoak's map and plan overall. I think the mushrooms might best be used in small patches near the main river in Oreleth. My opinion is that the mushrooms should be used primarily in valleys of the plains region as areas of interest and higher difficulty. I'd like to see areas of higher elevation here be more difficult and agriculture mainly focused in the valley. Perhaps the plantations NE are eeking out a living in the hills where land is more available, but less fertile.

Swiftoak had mentioned the possibility of adding a new crop type unique to the area. I think something that growing in arid relatively high climate would be interesting. Something bushy, maybe olives and vineyard.

The region should not be deforested except for maybe by main river since it is not very high population and relatively high difficulty. Instead the wooded or fungal forest areas should be naturally occurring mostly around depressions in the height map. Some areas might also be forested as shade trees or as food sources like pine nuts etc.
http://www.worldofstock.com/stock-photos/olive-trees-growing-on-a-hillside-farm/TEI2589

Last note, while the smooth-topped badlands may be pretty cool to look at they may be somewhat boring to explore, this is coming from someone who has walked through them. Something like this might be more interesting to travel though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badlands#mediaviewer/File:Panor%C3%A1mica_de_Las_M%C3%A9dulas.jpg

I think formations like these on edge of current ashland region ashlands would be nice
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4048/5138418581_a9dd995f40_z.jpg

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Post Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:20 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I like the image sasquatch linked above for Ashland formations; I was imagining something similar for around the Armun outpost.

Now I should state here as a disclaimer that I have still not gotten around to reading through the discussion that was split off, and so I may change my opinion to a greater or lesser degree after reading it, but a few points I want to state now:

A. TR does perhaps have more forests than I would like, but this project isn't called Tamriel Gnomebuilt, and I think the current mixture of mountain, forest and plains does provide a lot of variety for the player. While I do agree that the woods should thin out along the Othreleth and, additionally, around Kragenmar, I think this should still primarily be a wooded region, even with its immense size, as has Swiftoak pointed out, in mind.
I think the assets we have for the woods could potentially make for very enjoyable and immersive forest exploration, and think the room may well be necessary to get the right effect.
Specifically, I'd rather like it if the region were split into four primary types of terrain, with levels being relative to Othreleth Woods only and not Morrowind as a whole:

1. mid-level highland areas with scattered trees, especially around Kragenmar and Idathren.
2. low-level narrow plains with scattered trees, along the Othreleth, especially below Seryn.
3. mid-level sparse forest, fairly bright, forming a band between riverside zones and the
4. high-level dense forest with a more solid canopy. While the forest floor should stay relatively roomy, it would ideally look dark deeper in, and provide an experience similar to exploring an immense dungeon.

B. Sload can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but please do not take his region difficulty map as gospel. It was an approximation made for a rough draft of the still-incomplete Master Plan before the Othreleth Woods -- or really most regions -- were properly planned out.
While the Master Plan is supposed to establish a direction to follow in creating Morrowind, I do not think it should be set in stone. If our concept for a region changes, and the new concept is better than the old one without throwing a wrench in the rest of the Master Plan, I think the Master Plan should be changed to accommodate it.
I do not yet see how Swiftoak's plans in any way run counter to the difficulty map established in the Master Plan draft, though; I personally did get the impression that Othreleth Woods would be roughly equivalent to West Gash in level except along major roads. With my above division of the region, low-level might be equivalent to the Ascadian Isles while high-level could be equivalent to either West Gash or Azura's Coast as desired, keeping the average where it was in the Master Plan.

C. Some things worth keeping in mind for the Othreleth Woods region is that it has been the traditional region linking Morrowind trade to the larger Imperial trade network, and, largely because of that, that it is home to House Hlaalu, at the time of Morrowind a very strong contender for most powerful House, and also the most (outwardly) outlander-friendly House by far, which is on the rise.
Thematically, House Hlaalu should, in my opinion, appear player-friendly and civilized, with perhaps a harsher core. I think that is reflected in the current plans.
While it will probably not (and in my opinion should not) contain larger fields, like the TRV, Alt Orethan and -- probably in some form -- the Deshaan Plains, the region does have a lot of agricultural activity through its plantations, except for the areas furthest from the Othreleth, would be well-travelled, except for the areas furthest from the Othreleth, and would probably be thoroughly patrolled, except for the areas furthest from the Othreleth.

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Post Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:25 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Yeti
Lead Developer
15 Feb 2009

Location: Minnesota: The Land of 11,842 Lakes

Possible visual inspiration for Ud Hleryn:

Night Suran by Lelek1980

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Post Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:58 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
gro-Dhal
Lead Developer
05 Nov 2006

Location: A charter'd street

Two crop concepts for the region:

1. Watery fields like rice paddies. Within, rows of wooden stakes driven into the ground. On the damp stakes a particular deadwood fungus is cultivated for harvest. Can look like anything (I was thinking something with long spikes or fronds).

2. Gnarled twisted trees, low-growing. The bark or sap contains a compound that attracts snails, so each plant is covered with clusters of snails. The creatures are harvested as a regional delicacy or boiled into glue, sealant material etc. The farms are called snail orchards.

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