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Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I frankly have no idea what direction we'll be going with the Twin Lamps; I figure they'd have some presence in Hlaalu lands, would probably have a member or two in Old Ebonheart, (though I wouldn't necessarily group them with the Elsweyr mission), but beyond that I'm not too sure. This thread is for figuring that stuff out.
_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
Post Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:05 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Concerning faction relationships, or NPC reactions towards members of other factions.

In another thread I started drawing a table to determine faction relationships with other factions, which has changed a few times since the first sketch. The table shows NPC reactions towards members of different factions. The table should be read by finding the source faction on the left hand column, and matching it with a faction from the top row. See the table in the spoiler below.
Gnomey wrote:
First of all, in those graphs, I think the vertical columns are really the most important. They show how the opinions of members of factions change upon the player joining a certain faction.
Always remember that faction relations are inherently player-centric. The player will probably never join Her Hands, for instance, so figuring out what other factions would think of Her Hands would mostly be a waste of time. Figuring out what Her Hands thinks (if anything) of other factions is, however, very important.
Truth be told, I think it might be more reasonable to just figure out the vertical columns in the individual faction threads. This would split the task into bite-sized portions, allowing for proper discussion, and it would be rather easy to then go through the faction threads and gather the results.


Per Gnomey’s advice I am now splitting this up through the faction threads. Please discuss in this thread the reactions of other factions towards the Twin Lamps to keep things organised.


This faction obviously hates any slavery related faction, but are they also hated? Of course they are, but members of an extremely secretive faction like this probably won't be recognised as members by the public. Are the Twin Lamps so secret that nobody knows you're a member and therefore remain neutral towards you?

I wrote something on the TL before which still applies:
Quote:
Imperial factions are against slavery, but because (by Imperial approved) law allows slavery in Morrowind, the Twin Lamps are officially criminals, therefore their relationship should remain neutral.
Post Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:05 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kalvitto
Member
23 Jan 2015



As it currently stands..

Khajit & Argonian Races predominately make up the population of slaves within 'Vvardenfell'

Question: can TL have a deportation facility to get out of Vvardenfell.

Question: can TL have a temporary/complimentary holding grounds for those waiting to be deported.

Question: can TL have a 'secret list' of all known vanilla slaves
Post Fri Jan 23, 2015 7:52 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Telvayn
Member
28 Jan 2014



Kalvitto wrote:
Question: can TL have a temporary/complimentary holding grounds for those waiting to be deported.

The Argonian Embassy in Ebonheart already does that (though they don't have much room).
Post Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
alex25
Developer
21 Jan 2010

Location: Here and There

Kalvitto wrote:
As it currently stands..

Khajit & Argonian Races predominately make up the population of slaves within 'Vvardenfell'

Question: can TL have a deportation facility to get out of Vvardenfell.

Question: can TL have a temporary/complimentary holding grounds for those waiting to be deported.


Yes. This is something that should happen if it hasn't happened already.



Kalvitto wrote:

Question: can TL have a 'secret list' of all known vanilla slaves


I don't think so. There's very little justification for such a list.
Post Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:56 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kalvitto
Member
23 Jan 2015



to ALEX25 & Telvayn

Since the advent of the Third Era, slavery was illegal throughout the Empire, but protected by law in Morrowind. This exception was granted by Tiber Septim in the Armistice of 2E 896 as a concession to the DUNMER, who saw the use of slaves as their ancient right.
-the unofficial elder scrolls pages

Vedam Dren is the Duke of the Imperial District of Vvardenfell, a province of Morrowind. Of noble descent, Dren was Hlaalu Grandmaster of the Vvardenfell district before he inherited his title. He rules from the Grand Council Chambers in Ebonheart, surrounded by DUNMER and Imperial Counselors.
-the unofficial elder scrolls pages


is it fair to say 'stealing' implies ownership.

is it fair to say 'ownership' implies property.

is it fair to say 'Slaves' are bought & sold as property.

NOW

Question: can Slave Masters have a copy of their record identifying their own Slaves (should the PLAYER find that copy)

Question: can there be a Master Record of all Slave Traders & Owners (not the number of slaves)

Question: can their be a Twin Lamps Acquisition Questline involving the first 2 questions

Question: can Cammona Tong have a 'secret list' instead
Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:20 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Kalvitto wrote:
to ALEX25 & Telvayn

Since the advent of the Third Era, slavery was illegal throughout the Empire, but protected by law in Morrowind. This exception was granted by Tiber Septim in the Armistice of 2E 896 as a concession to the DUNMER, who saw the use of slaves as their ancient right.
-the unofficial elder scrolls pages

Vedam Dren is the Duke of the Imperial District of Vvardenfell, a province of Morrowind. Of noble descent, Dren was Hlaalu Grandmaster of the Vvardenfell district before he inherited his title. He rules from the Grand Council Chambers in Ebonheart, surrounded by DUNMER and Imperial Counselors.
-the unofficial elder scrolls pages


is it fair to say 'stealing' implies ownership.

is it fair to say 'ownership' implies property.

is it fair to say 'Slaves' are bought & sold as property.

NOW

Question: can Slave Masters have a copy of their record identifying their own Slaves (should the PLAYER find that copy)

Question: can there be a Master Record of all Slave Traders & Owners (not the number of slaves)

Question: can their be a Twin Lamps Acquisition Questline involving the first 2 questions

Question: can Cammona Tong have a 'secret list' instead


First, as mentioned the CT has much less influence on Hlaalu outside of Vvardenfell.

A1: I don't see why not. It's standard administration; an inventory list is not a strange thing to be found in businesses.

A2: That would be a list of nearly every Dunmer with an above average rank. Who would/could create/own such a list? I don't really see the need for it.

A3: A TL questline making you check off slaves off a list would seem rather boring to me. On top of that, it's no secret that slaves are kept and it's no secret where they are. There wouldn't be need for any such list for the TL if they just want to free random slaves. If they were to free specific slaves, I'd rather see them do this by having the player find out about these slaves in a more secretive way rather than reading off a list where they'd be.

A4: See A2
Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 12:09 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

Kalvitto wrote:
Question: can Slave Masters have a copy of their record identifying their own Slaves (should the PLAYER find that copy)


I'm not sure whether such records would typically be kept. For the most part, the bracer is used as a brand: the one with the key to the bracer is the owner, which is why holding on to the key is so important. Some such records could exist, certainly, but I don't think they'd be mandatory. They might be more common among Hlaalu, who seem to like paperwork more than the other Houses, but Hlaalu would also be more likely to obfuscate their records and weave a neat little narrative into them. The Indoril might do something similar as well, or might not care enough.

Kalvitto wrote:
Question: can there be a Master Record of all Slave Traders & Owners (not the number of slaves)


I doubt there would be a master record of all slave traders and owners just as I doubt there is a master record of all car salesmen and owners. Even if such a thing were attempted, it would be virtually impossible for the list to be comprehensive.
Keep in mind that the game is a scaled-down representation of Morrowind. There will probably be hundreds of slaves in our Morrowind, but you'd have to add two or three figures to that number to reach the actual population of slaves Morrowind is supposed to have.

Kalvitto wrote:
Question: can their be a Twin Lamps Acquisition Questline involving the first 2 questions


The Twin Lamps would basically need to make a census of all slaves and slave owners in Morrowind themselves, with only the occasional document here and there to aid them. They simply do not have the manpower or access to records to be able to undertake such a task, and as far as the player is concerned it would be a huge and probably dull undertaking; though I suppose the Twin Lamps could be working on such a list, and have the player help out, without it ever being completed in-game (or out of it).

Kalvitto wrote:
Question: can Cammona Tong have a 'secret list' instead


As for the Camonna Tong, I don't think they're organized enough to keep comprehensive records of even their own operations, and even if they are I'm not sure why they would. Do modern criminal groups keep comprehensive lists of the illegal goods they peddle? I'd assume not.

That being said, I wouldn't say that the CT has much less influence outside of Vvardenfell, just somewhat less. They'd still be a major faction in Narsis, they'd just have more competition, and as such less overall influence there, while on Vvardenfell they mostly have free reign.

_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 3:27 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
chiron
Member
05 Jun 2014

Location: atlanta

Does anyone know of any lore texts that mention the Twin Lamps?

It's a mostly underground organization right? Here's an idea: Those in charge of the orchestration of the movement decide to establish a more visible front that doesn't free slaves directly, but rather opens up discourse channels (publications, rallys, public speeches [which could be quest-events, themselves]) The front could also demand public records of slave-holders

Some more abstractions: 'Twin Lamps' implies a lamp in each hand, means both hands are occupied with 'lighting the way', leaving little room for other tasks. So this is an extremely dedicated group, and the ways in which characters of this group interact with other issues will always be toned with the master/slave problem. imo, it's always interesting working with extreme idealists, as they are more prone to making radical/dramatic decisions, and the success/fail rate is always random depending on the context or political atmosphere or the position of the moons (masser and secunda).
Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 4:32 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kalvitto
Member
23 Jan 2015



To Gromley

Can we (or I) make Twin Lamps a bit more immersive somehow

The Mage in the Argonian Mission can explain the deportation of all slaves.

Question. when the PLAYER returns to the Mission after freeing any number of slaves, can they appear inside the building and no longer hang around their prison dwellings?

going through the Mission's door can activate their appearance thus removing them from where-ever (maybe)

Question. could some form of warranty validate the existence of the documents? and some form of reward by selling them on or handing them in to someone (maybe)

Question. 38 locations across Vvardenfell contain 1 or more slaves (166 in total minus the vampires 'cattle'). Rumor of TL has made it to the most isolated regions of these 38 locations, but how?

As for manpower & resources, Twin Lamps is ruled from the Dren Family, Vedam's Daughter (financially sound)
Post Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:52 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Kalvitto
Member
23 Jan 2015



The Fair Helas is a ship that can be found at the docks of Ald Velothi, northwest of the town.

This ship is owned by Galyn Arvel; it is the bigger one of the two ships moored there. The Fair Helas is used by abolitionists to help slaves escape, but the vast amount of skooma and moon sugar found on board suggests that the ship is also used for smuggling, as does the presence of a limeware platter in the hold.
-The unofficial elder scroll pages

this explains another holding/deporting method for slaves..

plus the argonian embassy with its holding cell & mage

sorry guys.
Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:26 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
chiron
Member
05 Jun 2014

Location: atlanta

So I have a rough proposition for a Twin Lamps questline flavored with Khajit lore. Please pardon me if I step on any toes. I would like to begin designing quests, and I am unsure if there's a formal process.




<><><><><>

Journal Entry: "I was told that the Twin Lamps are an anti-slavery organization. If I am asked 'Have you seen the Twin Lamps?' I should say 'They light the way to freedom.'"

<><><><><>


Quotes from various sources of Lore:


"And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best climbers, for if Masser and Secunda fail, they must climb Khenarthi's breath to set the moons back in their courses."
And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best deceivers, for they must always hide their nature from the children of Ahnurr."
And Fadomai said, "The Khajiit must be the best survivors, for Nirni will be jealous, and she will make the sands harsh and the forests unforgiving, and the Khajiit will always be hungry and at war with Nirni.""
"And Azurah came to her and said, "Poor Nirni, stop your tears. Azurah makes for you a gift of a new people." Nirni stopped weeping, and Azurah spoke the First Secret to the Moons and they parted and let Azurah pass. And Azurah took some forest people who were torn between man and beast, and she placed them in the best deserts and forests on Nirni. And Azurah in her wisdom made them of many shapes, one for every purpose. And Azurah named them Khajiit and told them her Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets. And Azurah bound the new Khajiit to the Lunar Lattice, as is proper for Nirni's secret defenders. Then Azurah spoke the Third Secret, and the Moons shone down on the marshes and their light became sugar."

/////

From the Pocket Guide:
"According to Khajiit myth and religion, Fadomai had gifted Jone and Jode with the ja-Kha'jay, or the Lunar Lattice, so that Jone and Jode could protect all of their children and the future children of Nirni (the races of Nirn) forever.
When Ahnurr had found Fadomai, he “shook the heavens themselves” yet could not break Jone and Jode's defenses. Azurah has worked with her siblings Jone and Jode to create the Khajiit whose primary purpose would be to fix Jone and Jode if they ever needed to be put back into their proper motions and thus save all of Mundus and Oblivion."

/////

"Azura maintains the domain of Moonshadow, a twilight country of shades and half-thoughts. Visitors to this isle have historically come mainly from the Dunmer of eastern Morrowind (as Azura is one of the Dunmeri three Good Daedra) and the catfolk of Elsweyr, whose people both hold a great affection for the mother of immanence, though by separate roads."

/////

Michael Kirkbride: “[Jone and Jode] are like the mortal plane in that they are temporal and subject to the bounds of mortality; in fact of this, the moons are dead and died long ago. The moons used to be pure white and featureless, but today their 'skin' is decaying and withering away. Their planes are likewise dying. Mortals perceive this as the moons being spheres with patches of their 'surfaces' completely eaten away; as the moons spin, they seem to become slivers or ragged crescents. These are not caused by shadows, because you can see stars through the black patches of the lunar spheres.

<><><><><><>



So abstracting from these passages, we have a correlation with the main quest of Morrowind in the scheming of Azura, and we also get a storyline with Khajit lore, Jode and Jone as the Twin Lamps, perhaps even making an appearance with or without Azura [through moon-sugar hallucination or some other means]. "The primary purpose" of the Khajit is to fix Jode and Jone, and perhaps the Khajit in Morrowind can sense something wrong with the motion of the moons (motion of the moons meaning the life-soul force of the Khajit [lunar lattice]) which could be a projection of their ordeals with moon-sugar addiction, slavery, and discrimination.


Relevant Characters

Ilmeni Dren: "a Dunmer noble, is a House Cousin for House Hlaalu. Ilmeni is Duke Vedam Dren's daughter. She is also one of Morrowind's most prominent anti-slavery campaigners, and leader of the Twin Lamps organization of abolitionists — which brings her into opposition to her uncle Orvas, owner of one of the biggest slave-run plantations in Vvardenfell."

Jobasha: "Khajiit bookseller who is the proprietor of "Jobasha's Rare Books". He is both directly and indirectly involved in many quests that require rare books. He is also an active abolitionist and works closely with Ilmeni Dren. "

Im-Kilaya: "an Argonian mage and a prominent member of the Twin Lamps. He can be found at the Argonian Mission in Ebonheart. Im-Kilaya works tirelessly trying to return escaped slaves to Argonia, and many slaves will ask you to escort them to him. He also might give you a donation for the poor."


These three are the main focusing-points for quests, themes, and player-involvement/world-effect... With this we also see reflections of Azura, Jone, and Jode, as well as a discursive take on the tribunal, “Temporal and subject to the bounds of mortality”. They will be more secretive or 'in the shadows' so to speak, which is to say, the quest-line will be subtle, actions of mere mortals for causes dealing with the here-and-now rather than transcendence of man/mer/beast.

So we have the Dunmer noble, the Khajit intellectual, and the Argonian mage (reflections of the main forces involved in the conflict of slave-trade in Morrowind). Ilmeni Dren gives us access to Dunmeri politics (mostly involving Hlaalu, Dres, and Telvanni)... Jobasha as the intellectual, is the one who 'teaches' Ilmeni about Khajit lore, Master-Slave philosophies, etc... gives her strong doses of idealism which she uses in her creation of the Twin Lamps which just so happens to be named (subconsciously or consciously) after Jone and Jode. Im-Kilaya, the Argonian, is connected to other Argonians and perhaps various characters along the Dres/Black Marsh border... mainly involved with House Dres conflicts.

Variations of themes in dealing with each of the three:

Jobasha is nostalgic for Elsweyr. Also involved in Khajit spiritualism/ceremony. Perhaps hallucinates on moonsugar. Although intellectual, he is discriminated by his 'peers' for being khajit, and this adds to his lonliness and resentment. In Jobasha, we have reflections of Jode (big Moon-god).

Ilmeni is young and idealistic and a romantic. She is priviliged and well-educated, but she also has a big heart, and wants to see moral and intellectual progress in Morrowind. Her fling with a Bouyant Armiger maybe suggests a connection to Redoran principles of family, gravity, duty, honor, etc. She has the potential to be a really complex and deep character. In Ilmeni, we have reflections of Azura.

Im-Kilaya has connections to Argonia as a part of the Argonian Mission. His mage class suggests a strong connection to the 'blood-magic' of the Hist. And as I said before, He would be a good connecting point for Dres slavery conflict. Also involved with Argonian education, which besides slavery, gives him another connection to Jobasha and Ilmeni. In Im-Kilaya, we have reflections of Jone (little Moon-god) [or perhaps this is Jobasha's dream].



Relevant Dialogue snippets from the main game:

Im-Kilaya:
“We are the People of the Root, called 'Argonians' by the warmbloods. We go where we will, wet or dry, and the currents of blood magic run swift in our veins. In our native land, we hunt to live, masters of the marshes. Hunted and enslaved by softskinned enemies, we snare and slay them by stealth, spell, and steel.”
“It is good that you brought her here. We have heard tales of drugs being smuggled inside these poor people. There seems to be no low the smugglers and slavers won't stoop to for profit. We will give her the help she needs. Thank you, and please take this in return. Perhaps it will help you in funding other missions of goodwill. Take care.”
“We will get him back to his people. Soon, by the Root, he will be back among his people, with the sweet smell of the Hist making fire in his veins.”

Jobasha:
“It is the home of the Khajiit. Perhaps %Name will return someday.”
“No idea where he went? Damn. He's probably halfway to the mainland by now... Thanks, %PCName. I'd best start looking for the next slave on my list, then.”
“We are from the deserts and forests of Elsweyr. There are many Khajiit, but only the small, agile Suthay-raht are common here in Vvardenfell. When people think of Khajiit, they think of thieves. Perhaps because it is hard for us to understand "property."”
“Khajiit in Morrowind suffer. Some talk, some act. Which are you?”

Ilmeni Dren:
“I am a noble of Great House Hlaalu. It is my privilege and pleasure to serve my house and clan as a leader and protector of its ancient prerogatives. In the grand mercantile traditions of House Hlaalu, I am a merchant prince. I concern myself with the wealth and influence of our house, and strive to bring profit and wealth to myself, my retainers, and my humble clients and kinsmen. I serve at the pleasure of the Clan and Council, providing such public works and services as befits my station.”
“The real business of Vvardenfell is slavery.”
“Business? How can you talk about business when people cannot read?” [connection to Jobasha?]
“There's always trouble between outlanders -- non-Dunmer Imperial colonists -- and the Dunmer natives. Often it just appears to be common theft and crime, but racial and cultural hatreds often lie behind the violence.”
“Well, the Temple has always said that madness is a soul sickness, and a sign of sin. But in the Empire, they say it's just another kind of disease.”
“The Great Houses have always fought private wars among themselves. Sometimes they fight about land, sometimes about wealth, sometimes about politics, sometimes about honor.”
“Oh, have you seen the twin lamps?”
Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:02 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
klep
Lead Developer
23 Nov 2014

Location: Europe

Note that Khajiit usually talk about themselves in third person.
Post Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:24 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
chiron
Member
05 Jun 2014

Location: atlanta

Noted. I also just found out that Jobasha (somewhat offhandedly) mentions that his sister died, which would be interesting to explore.
Post Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:35 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
QueenOfRats
Developer
04 Sep 2014



These are just a few ideas I have for Twin Lamps quests:
-Intimidate/Persuade/Pay off an enchanter(s) to stop making the slave bracers
-Persuade important people to speak against slavery (Imperial nobles, Imperial guilds, maybe the Redorans [I think all the other Houses are really pro-slavery]?)
-Sabotage Dres slave pits (put invisibility potions in the food and similar). I think the plan is also to go neo-punk with the Dres so maybe putting night-eye in the food, cutting the power, then leading the slaves to freedom in the chaos?
-Helping out with a slave rebellion on a Hlauu farm
-Getting rid of thugs attacking Twin Lamps members

I think that we need to avoid all Twin Lamps quests just being "go here, free a slave". As for getting them out of the country, it would be possible (lore and scripting-wise) to have a ship (ran by an anti-slaver) dock in a nearby harbor with a shipment of something (like ash yams, bread, saltrice) you could then lead the slaves on. Though this would only be practical for the big missions.

Also I really like Jobasha and Ilmeni so seeing more of them would be great (I could imagine Jobasha coming to the mainland to get rare books and Ilmeni coming over to irritate the Hlauu council).

Also in Oblivion it is mentioned that the Hlauu and the Dres have stopped the slave trade interestingly (assuming Bethsada didn't get their Great Houses mixed up).
Post Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:53 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

I agree that we need to make any dedicated Twin Lamp quests we make interesting.

Notes on your suggestions:

-all Houses are pro-slavery, Redoran included, even though they do not use slaves themselves. That being said, without directly supporting abolition, the player might be able to get Redoran to indirectly support Twin Lamp operations in attempting to sabotage House Hlaalu in some way, as is the case in vanilla Morrowind with the Ebony Mining Company quests.
-trying to free slaves from House Dres should almost always require a high-level operation, in my opinion. 'Cutting the power' isn't really an option in a world of magic; whether we make them look neo-punk or not, Dres still use glowing larvae for lighting, and Dres guards, let alone nobles, would probably know light magic.
I certainly think Twin Lamps has the most potential for storytelling in Deshaan, where naive western abolitionists would be completely out of their element, caught between the cruel Dres slavers and the slaves and Argonian guerrillas who would likely be more interested in slaughtering the slavemasters and even Dunmer in general than introducing legal reforms.
-as far as vanilla Twin Lamps members are concerned, we can involve them in future quests without contriving some reason for them to visit the mainland. We no longer treat Vvardenfell as being hands-off.

_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
Post Fri Jun 26, 2015 2:49 pm Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Not
Lead Developer
01 Mar 2012

Location: Elsewhere

Actually, I do like some of the ideas here and there's no denying this could all play out well what with all the slavery in the Deshaan area. However, before I list my ideas, I have a question: are we making the Twin Lamps a joinable faction through which the player may advance in rank? If so, will they be able to become top rank or will it be like the Blades and Ashlanders sort of thing?

Then of course there's still the issue of having to integrate the rest of the factions into the mainland x.x

_________________
Not another memory

...And so my bad karma gets worse
Post Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:43 am Send private message             Reply with quote                   up  
Gnomey
Lead Developer
19 May 2006

Location: In your garden.

We haven't actually figured that out yet. I think we'd have enough material to work with to make a full faction, but I'd say it's relatively low in the priority list as factions go.
_________________
"The "drunks" are hopefully leading the "sober" in the right direction. They're just not heading there in a straight line...." - Kovacius

"I have nothing to declare except my genius." - Oscar Wilde, border
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