q2-22-Imp

[arvisrend]

Also note that this file will appear somewhat dirty, as I made some rather obscure fixes in this file that I would forget otherwise. These are mainly to the Map1 IC quests, and some other things (like the Kmlz_dead rat (don't ask)).

Are these fixes still in the file? I reckon they might give problems at merge time, particularly since some of the bugs they address might have been already fixed in a different way in the mainland. (For instance, a few days ago I made the dead-rat corpses-persist.)

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Unfortunately most of these things will likely cause merger errors, yes. This questline was the one that caused us to discover the root of these problems (see me and Skwoz chatting above).

The best solution would be to clean any obviously Mainland related stuff from this file prior to a merge. If possible try and work out what was fixed, but I would imagine most of the stuff will have been caught by folks already separately.

[arvisrend]

Okay. One of the changes obviously replaces script TR_m1_q_IC_2_Elmonder in such a way that Elmonder (an NPC you have to heal for quest 2 of the Map1 Imperial Cult) is disabled until the quest starts.

I'm going to make this change in the mainland; if you think it is no longer necessary, just tell me and I'll revert it.

Incidentally, BC, do you happen to know which of the other quest-claims-in-reviewing have this kind of uncleanness?

[arvisrend]

I am slowly beginning to understand the changes made in this file. There is some cool landscape detailing you did there, BC!

Once I know which of the things to keep and which to remove, I'll clean it using the Details view of the CS and (if I find out how to do that) remove the master dependency.

While I don't know this for sure, I assume that the only change to the Kemel-Ze dead rat was to make it persistent. That I've already done. Am I right in assuming that the player won't ever see this rat? We could then remove even its loot.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

'Fraid I have little memory of the things that were done back this far in the past, so don't know what other claims will be like. Sorry!

[arvisrend]

Here is all dialogue from the q2-22 claim that I believe to be dirty. (Most dialogue is ok, of course.) Along with experimental merge instructions. Before anyone follows them, I want to hear BC's opinion/comments, though; I can only guess what was the plan behind them.

Note that I would not care that much about dirty references right now; we can merge them into the mainland and then look for doubling problems in the CS (by manually going over each ref; there are not many, and most are clean). Dirty dialogue seems more of a problem to me.

Also, in the attached file, I have cleaned out the Elmonder script and the dead rat. Both are fixed in the mainland. Other than that, no cleaning has been done.

Since the file has been made with obsolete Mainland and Data files, there are errors ingame, but I hope they are not that much of a problem at merge time.

---------

MERGE THIS IN "1073332342175431729" "202522226317506779" "2326431237226078959" "Greeting" "Greeting 5" "Welcome to the chapel of the Nine Divines here in Helnim. Perhaps you want to join the Imperial Cult? We willingly accept converts." -1 -1 "TR_m2_Cantorius Tramel" Function Same Faction = 0.00

NOTE: Also, delete the "Greeting 7" with the exact same text (but a wrong condition) told by the same NPC. I don't know whether this was done in the q2-22, but I'd do it in the mainland.

---------

CLEAN THIS OUT? "2820031501325924396" "439834072037516919" "357060622652315985" "Greeting" "Greeting 6" "Welcome, %PCRank %PCName. Can I tell you about our services? Or, if you feel like donating a little more time and effort, you could perform errands for the Imperial Cult." ";imperial cult; rank adept [rank 5]; PC layman [rank 0][CRLF];THIS COULD BE DELETED" 4 "dialog placeholder" "TR_ImperialCult" "TR_ImperialCult"

NOTE: The change here was apparently to add the ID condition "dialog placeholder". This basically means making the dialogue inaccessible from ingame. I do not see the reason why, so I would advise against deleting this from the mainland.

---------

CLEAN THIS OUT? "439834072037516919" "357060622652315985" "3167944341043520045" "Greeting" "Greeting 6" "Welcome! May I tell you about the Imperial Cult? We invite you to join the Cult as a lay member." ";imperial cult; rank adept [rank 5]; PC layman [rank 0][CRLF];THIS COULD BE DELETED" 4 -1 "dialog placeholder" "TR_ImperialCult"

NOTE: Again, this dialogue has been made inaccessible. This change makes the "join the Imperial cult" topic unlinked from the Bal Oyra IC priest; insofar I consider it a definite bug.

---------

DONE: CLEAN THIS OUT AND MAKE CHANGES IN MAINLAND? "24463198842591620919" "3065817063125798875" "21252254463243424196" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "You are now a %NextPCRank in the Imperial Cult. Welcome, %PCName, to our community, and may you rejoice in its blessings. Can I tell you about our services? Or, if you can donate more time and effort, you may seek advancement or perform errands for me or other Cult members throughout Morrowind." "player->removeitem gold_001 50[CRLF]PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]player->additem TR_bk_formygodsandemperor 1" 4 -1 "TR_ImperialCult" Function Choice = 1.00 Item Gold_001 >= 50.00

NOTE: This is a change to a mainland reply. There are two changes: the sentence "would you like to become a lay servant?" became "you may seek advancement or perform errands for me or other Cult members throughout Morrowind." (which is good, since it links the word "errand"), and the player is no longer given the book bk_formygodsandemperor (from Vanilla MW) but the book TR_bk_formygodsandemperor instead. I don't see why we have two different versions of that book...

---------

DONE: CLEAN THIS OUT AND MAKE CHANGES IN MAINLAND

several very similar dialogue responses to "join the Imperial Cult" for players who are already in the Vvardenfell IC:

"4751250111356521976" "680214847282688765" "2258141621667925605" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are the Primate of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you of course gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. However, we can only grant you the rank of Acolyte here on the mainland. You must work your way up like everyone else. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 9 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"680214847282688765" "2258141621667925605" "1236514648370424693" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are a Theurgist over there we can only grant you the rank of Acolyte here on the mainland. You must work your way up like everyone else. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 8 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"2258141621667925605" "1236514648370424693" "200111385427469910" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are an Invoker over there we can only grant you the rank of Acolyte here on the mainland. You must work your way up like everyone else. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 7 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"1236514648370424693" "200111385427469910" "15270135061692832374" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are an Oracle over there we can only grant you the rank of Acolyte here on the mainland. You must work your way up like everyone else. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 6 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"200111385427469910" "15270135061692832374" "103922219925810005" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are a Disciple over there we can only grant you the rank of Initiate here on the mainland. You must work your way up like everyone else. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 5 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"15270135061692832374" "103922219925810005" "1389017384225113041" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are an Adept over there we can only grant you the rank of Initiate here on the mainland. You must work your way up like everyone else. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 4 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"103922219925810005" "1389017384225113041" "777331244182322377" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are an Acolyte over there we can only grant you the rank of Novice here on the mainland. You must work your way up like everyone else. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 3 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"1389017384225113041" "777331244182322377" "21093123912211610351" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are an Initiate over there we can only grant you the rank of Novice here on the mainland. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]PCRaiseRank ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 2 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"777331244182322377" "21093123912211610351" "161636024798623145" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are a Novice over there we can only grant you the the rank of Layman here on the mainland. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 1 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00
"21093123912211610351" "161636024798623145" "6314129219072197" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "Since you are already a member of the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell, you gain automatic entry without the need to make a donation. Because you are a Layman over there we can grant you the same rank here on the mainland. If you seek advancement or want to run an errand speak to me or visit our other shrines." "PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""" 4 "TR_ImperialCult" "Imperial Cult" Function Same Faction = 0.00

NOTE: all that is done here (I've diffed) is replacing "Theurigist" by "Theurgist" (should be correct) and "shrine" by "shrines" (correct, too).

---------

CLEAN THIS OUT "161263237924298389" "149544781024720123" "2434316004187839325" "Topic" "latest rumors" "The Imperials' new Knight Protector has been trying to throw his weight around lately. We Telvanni won't take any of that nonsense, of course." 30 1 -1 "TR_Telvanni" "Helnim" Not Local NoLore = 0.00 Global Random100 >= 30.00 Not Cell Helnim Fields Region = 1.00

NOTE: appears exactly identically in mainland; merging in could fuck up order, so clean it.

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MERGE THIS IN (and add a dot to the end) "" "2699224881186114281" "1592016467189212670" "Topic" "Errand" "I will not talk about this with you until you make amends" -1 -1 "TR_ImperialCult" Function PC Expelled = 1.00

NOTE: Such a reply already exists in the Mainland for each of the 3 NPCs who actually give any errands. But apparently it is better to replace it by a generic answer. Or isn't it?

---------

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

All this makes sense.

On the 'dialog placeholder' lines, I would actually delete them and just add a new line with the relevant hyperlink for the Bal Oyra priest. Otherwise (I think) all Imperial Cultists will constantly spam the player with talk of errands even once the player's done all their quests, or if they don't have any, right? In any event, I think both lines would be better handled by local dialogue for each relevant priest character rather than in one catch-all line.

There is a TR_formygods because the vanilla one goes on about vanilla locations a lot, and says that Ebonheart is the only place to go to join or work with the cult.

Are those lines about joining the faction from Vvardenfell not just additions? Do they need to be cleaned and re-added manually?

[Why]

There's a different version of the book for TR because the vanilla version contains a list of Vvardenfell locations where the player can join the IC

[arvisrend]

Ah!! Now I understand why there are two books.

I still don't understand why you want this

CLEAN THIS OUT? "439834072037516919" "357060622652315985" "3167944341043520045" "Greeting" "Greeting 6" "Welcome! May I tell you about the Imperial Cult? We invite you to join the Cult as a lay member." ";imperial cult; rank adept [rank 5]; PC layman [rank 0][CRLF];THIS COULD BE DELETED" 4 -1 "dialog placeholder" "TR_ImperialCult"

NOTE: Again, this dialogue has been made inaccessible. This change makes the "join the Imperial cult" topic unlinked from the Bal Oyra IC priest; insofar I consider it a definite bug.

to stay deleted. It has nothing to do with errands, but it has to do with the "join" topic getting linked. It is conditioned on rank=adept, so it won't be spammed by every single cultist, but it will be said often enough for the player to actually notice that the Mainland IC can be joined.

Are those lines about joining the faction from Vvardenfell not just additions? Do they need to be cleaned and re-added manually?

They're not additions, they're changes (the numeric IDs are identic with ones in the mainland ESM), and I am unsure about merging in changes.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Like I say, it would be easier and neater just to give the 'join' line to the people who have the power individually. Otherwise, to put it very simply, that line and local dialogue are in conflict one way or another. (either local will beat this line, rendering it pointless, or this line will replace local dialogue, neither of which is desirable, as you rightly point out) But absolutely give such a line to the Bal Oyra priest - you could even ID filter this exact line for him.

Right, I was unaware those lines were already in Mainland. Yes, modifications should not be directly merged. How come the regular signing up dialogue was not similary affected?

[arvisrend]

Like I say, it would be easier and neater just to give the 'join' line to the people who have the power individually.

Any Adept in the Mainland IC has the power to let the player join. That isn't different from vanilla.

There are not so many adepts around (or at least there shouldn't).

Right, I was unaware those lines were already in Mainland. Yes, modifications should not be directly merged. How come the regular signing up dialogue was not similary affected?

It is. As I wrote:

CLEAN THIS OUT AND MAKE CHANGES IN MAINLAND? "24463198842591620919" "3065817063125798875" "21252254463243424196" "Topic" "join the Imperial Cult" "You are now a %NextPCRank in the Imperial Cult. Welcome, %PCName, to our community, and may you rejoice in its blessings. Can I tell you about our services? Or, if you can donate more time and effort, you may seek advancement or perform errands for me or other Cult members throughout Morrowind." "player->removeitem gold_001 50[CRLF]PCJoinFaction ""TR_ImperialCult""[CRLF]player->additem TR_bk_formygodsandemperor 1" 4 -1 "TR_ImperialCult" Function Choice = 1.00 Item Gold_001 >= 50.00

NOTE: This is a change to a mainland reply. There are two changes: the sentence "would you like to become a lay servant?" became "you may seek advancement or perform errands for me or other Cult members throughout Morrowind." (which is good, since it links the word "errand"), and the player is no longer given the book bk_formygodsandemperor (from Vanilla MW) but the book TR_bk_formygodsandemperor instead. I don't see why we have two different versions of that book...

Of course the question about the two different versions of the book has been answered. BTW you very nicely averted this easily-made mistake in the quest where the player has to find that book.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

My point on that dialogue still stands, it still will one way or the other mess around with local dialogue, becoming either redundant or disruptive. Filter it for the Bal Oyra priest to avert the 'bug'.

Right, I forgot that Mainland already included joining dialogue for all/most of the factions. I got it now.

[arvisrend]

I still don't see how it should mess with the local dialogue. It's a Greeting 6, which is supposedly the right place for faction greetings. Blahblah is in 7, 8 and 9. So it is always the first choice unless something more important comes in.

The reason why I don't want to filter it for the Bal Oyra priest is that there are 5 adepts around, not just the Bal Oyra one.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

It means that if I write any Greetings in my NPC claim (where all Greetings are 7 or 9, outside of quests) that are meant to show up for an NPC who happens to be an Adept Cultist, it will be ignored and get replaced with a catch-all generic message. Given that Adepts are high-ranking faction members, it's quite likely that they'd be prominent candidates for a bit of unique character dialogue. Losing that dialogue would be as much a bug as the player not seeing a hyperlink to 'join the Imperial Cult' (if not more, arguably, given that it would actually be a subversion of the intent of the creator of the dialogue.)

That's just a statement of fact.

If I want him to tell the player he can join (and indeed we do) I can just add that to his local greeting.

[arvisrend]

Ah, I see what you mean now. I thought that by "local greeting", you meant a town-based greeting, and I was surprised that you wanted them to override join-the-Cult greetings. Now it seems that you mean "local" as in "pertaining to the concrete NPC".

That said, I'm not sure about how you would like this to be fixed. Remove the greeting, and then? Add a tailored join-the-Cult greeting to every single adept? To the most important ones? To the ones that give errands?

[Why]

Feel free to clean out those altered Greeting 6 entries that are about joining the IC and the errands. I'll restrict joining and quest-giving greetings to the actual quest-givers the next time I get my hands on TR_Mainland, which should be soon. We can't really copy vanilla in this case because the IC on Vvardenfell was so damn limited.

[arvisrend]

OK, there are definitely problems with the dirtiness of this claim beyond dialogue. NPCs are doubled even if I just try to play it with the new master; the exorcism ritual crashes the game.

Oh, and during the exorcism ritual, the cursed Dwemer shield bleeds into a book lying on the altar.

In other news, the "ingredients" response "I need ten units of [...]" reappears when the quest is done, although it is completely useless by then.

And, as I said, if we don't want the quests to be unnecessarily obscure, it would be wise to mention them in the ending dialogue of the preceding ones, or else many players wouldn't bother talking to the questgiver again (understandable in a game featuring over 5000 NPCs).

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

You'll see on the previous page that me and Skwoz had a bunch of unpredictable (and unreplicable on my end) issues that seemed to stem from the version of TR_Mainland I was using. Right now I don't really have time to get into fully checking a bugged-up quest, sorry! If it does look like one of those times where the creator should really step in, let me know and I'll give it a shot.

The shield thing is just a standard dirtiness issue, because that was a reference that I deleted in my .esp. There was a list of the most obvious of such problems (incl that one) on the previous page.

I think the greetings do prompt the player to click 'errands' again, and it is a faction questline. The player is also alerted when there are no more quests, I think. But feel free to add a prompt, if you want.


By 'local dialogue' I mean any dialogue added at the NPC creation stage specifically to that claim and area, versus the 'global dialogue' that is provided by TR_Data and TR_Mainland.

[arvisrend]

I see. Sorry, BC, for failing to read most of the topic until now. I'm not sure whether this claim will require you stepping in; Why has volunteered to clean this ESP, and I'm just trying to make the first easy steps so that it becomes merge-ready as soon as possible. Nemon will likely be done with the landscape tweaks very soon and I want the Helnim quests to be merged in first (since they need the greatest amount of testing).

I will then fix the quest bugs in the Mainland ESP once everything is merged.

I think the greetings do prompt the player to click 'errands' again, and it is a faction questline. The player is also alerted when there are no more quests, I think. But feel free to add a prompt, if you want.

The point is that I want not the greetings, but the ending dialogue of the previous quest to give the pointer to the next one. (Well, the greetings, too, of course.) And additionally, the player should not miss the special quests, even though the first time he speaks to Tramel he probably doesn't have the rank to start them yet. I'd even go as far as adding placeholder journal entries of the following sort:

"Tramel seems to have a less ordinary task waiting for me, but he tells me that I have to return with a higher rank to start it."

whose only purpose is to remind the player of the existence of such a quest. Am I overdoing accessibility here?

Also, is this what you meant by "a list of the most obvious of such problems"?

For the merger:

This is running on a version of TR_Mainland called TR_Mainland (with underscore), so if that would affect merging, take that into account.

Please replace all instances of bk_formygodsandemperor in TR lands with TR_bk_ForMyGodsAndEmperor.

Please make the walk up to Berantus actually usable (and more geologically feasible).

Once merged, please ensure that there are not two books on the altar in the Helnim, Imperial Chapels. Please ensure that by the secret passage in Omathi Tomb, it is TR_m2_q_22_Wall that blocks the way only, and that there is not a duplicate in_velothi_corner_small or whatever there as well.

Also check the doors to the upper deck (from the exterior) and lower deck (from the upper deck interior) of The Eternal Voyager and ensure that both are not duplicated, and have a key locking them.

In the lower deck of the Eternal Voyager, please remove the barrel to the right of the 'central pole'.

Also note that this file will appear somewhat dirty, as I made some rather obscure fixes in this file that I would forget otherwise. These are mainly to the Map1 IC quests, and some other things (like the Kmlz_dead rat (don't ask)). [EDIT: at least some of these are cleaned in the new version]

Well, if we make a note of every reference we delete/replace/move/edit, then the merger can ensure the right one gets in ultimately.

So for this file, I know it's Tiunian Veltrus; the altar-book combo; the doors and barrel in Voyager; the wall in Omathi Ancestral Tomb.

[Bloodthirsty Crustacean]

Yep, those are the problems - the NPCs you found duplicated may well stem from unintentional dirt, possibly check the Details tab in the CS to see which refs I managed to mess up in suspect cells (it's better than TESAME for refs).

I think a journal entry would be overdoing it, but feel free to add a 'come back later' at the end of the previous quests.

[Not]

Here is the final version of the claim, clean and ready to be merged along with the .txt file. I believe I got everything. Again, feel free to make double check and make sure it's actually mergeable.

WHY EDIT: This file is now outdated, I posted a new file below, use that.

[Why]

The changed entries in Greeting 7 ("Welcome, %PCRank %PCName. Can I tell you about our services? Or, if you feel like donating a little more time and effort, you could perform errands for the Imperial Cult." and "Welcome! May I tell you about the Imperial Cult? We invite you to join the Cult as a lay member.") still need to be cleaned.

Edit: Also all changes to the "join the Imperial Cult" topic can be cleaned out, those have already been included in TR_Mainland.

[arvisrend]

Yeah. And the "latest rumors" reply too. This is why I had posted an edited version here.

[Why]

Fixed version. Use this for merging!

This one still contains the cell data, to include this riverbed detailing in TR_Mainland that arvis wanted to be kept. A second effect of this is that I don't think any items or NPCs will need to be re-added to TR_Mainland once this file is merged in, but I included a backup of Not's merge instructions anyway so the merger can check if everything that should be added by this file is in place.

edit: updated.

[Why]

updated my previous post. Please use the updated file for merging, it should avoid some duplicates I stumbled across. Merge instructions are inside.

[Why]

Claim has been merged into TR_Mainland and has been released with Sacred East.