I'm Concerned

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:07 pm

There is a problem with Tamriel Rebuilt.
When I joined, this place was fun. Work was getting banged out, and people were friends with each other. Sure, we had to put up with a greater deal of spamming morons, but it was compensated for with members that worked their asses off and contributed some really great stuff.
IÃ¢â‚¬â„¢m not sure how it happened, but it seems to me like the fun is gone. In my opinion, the Core Admins regard Tamriel Rebuilt as work, and not play. WeÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ve lost a lot of good members recently, and while I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t single this out as the cause, I canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t rule it out either. Vorrheis has been gone for months. I havenÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t heard from Morden in a while. Asylum drops in now and then, but very rarely. And I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get me wrong, I will kick StumpyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s ass if I ever see him, but at least he kept the boards interesting. Come to think of it, he started turning asshole right around the time the boards started sucking.
And look at the state of the project now. The only progress updates I see are that of books written by members that are anything but lore experts. I have read several threads lately that have given me headaches, while they are praised by other members.
I think that the Core needs to take a much more active role. This is a call out to all of you. Come out from behind your veil, stop being so damn secretive, and whip this place back into shape. Quit your shadow government getup, and let us know that you are still interested in making this place fun. If this isnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t about fun for you, let us know that too. If you want this project to be nothing more than work, then tell us, so that me and several other concerned members can leave.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:12 pm

Not sure what you think we're hiding.

The core is pushing the project in the areas that need to get done first, ie: map 1 quests, map 2 interiors, and map 3 exteriors. One step at a time.

I would suggest if you're not having fun, to find something you do enjoy. I for one have been with this project for a long time and have had the same fun when I first started as a I do now. And I disagree with what you said about progress; seeing this project from the beginning of the new claims system, we are making the more progress now than ever.

bas · Post by **bas** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:13 pm

i like TR a lot i dont seem to see the problem..

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:20 pm

Beautifully stated, Dex. This point you made, about the Core believing this to be work, not play, is illustrated many times. For example, Noir's attempted locking down of the 'Tsunami' thread, because it didn't concern TR. I don't believe I'm the only one who found that action odious. Likewise, the Lounge was finally reinstated, but that's after it took 20-odd votes and a clearly reluctant core. There are countless more examples. No, I'm not saying that every single core member is Bush's clone. I am, however, stating that Dex is right when he says that this place either needs to pick up or inform the rest of us that it isn't going to. I've looked at leaving TR for a long time, now, and every day it looks more appealing. As Dex said, please make TR *fun* and not a collectivist den of altruism. We're here to have fun, not to finish the Project. This seems to have been forgotten, and coincidentally, nearly all of our veterans have left. Let's look:

Rodan
Yinnie
Prometheus
Vorrheis
Spider
Morden

And many more. Those who say 'there's nothing wrong with TR' are lying both to themselves and to us. We've got a problem, kids. Let's fix it?

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:21 pm

Noir, you're a great modder. But 95% of the members here don't know that. They don't know it, because you don't ever post about progress. Never once have I seen a thread about one of your claims, no matter how good it is. And as I looked at the claim map, you have claimed (and possibly completed) at least a quarter of the exteriors. We are fueled by progress. When I see something awesome, I want to do the same. The thing that caused me to pick up Old Ebonheart was browsing through the Narsis thread and wanting to have a metropolis of my own to work on. If we saw threads boasting about your work, it would inspire the rest of us. Looking through threads devoted to claims is fun. Don't take it away.

Negrodomous · Post by **Negrodomous** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:28 pm

bas wrote:i like TR a lot i dont seem to see the problem..

because you joined quite recently. i've been here for about 5 months now and i do notice a difference. just a few months ago i saw a new claim thread like every day, now they're kinda rare... i know what dexter means.

bas · Post by **bas** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:32 pm

i have joined recently yeah but i was watching this site for a long time already like 6 months or somethin like that.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:34 pm

We can't give fun out. Find something you like doing. The Lounge was "reluctanlty" opened because it was a source of "no fun." People were getting discuraged and leaving because of that one forum. We decided to open it again because there was a want for it by TR's members. We do things to make TR members happy and enjoy modding.

My suggestion is that if there is an area of the project you do not enjoy, stay away from it. Only do what you like for TR, and have fun doing it. We can not control you fun level, make your own fun.

@Dex: all of my progress and claims are posted in these forums. You and anyone can see them by downloading any of the group maps. There's nothing I don't do for this project that I don't let the whole TR community see.

Enjoy what you do, and do what you enjoy!

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:41 pm

@Dex: all of my progress and claims are posted in these forums. You and anyone can see them by downloading any of the group maps. There's nothing I don't do for this project that I don't let the whole TR community see.

I just browsed through all 6 of the group map boards. Out of your nearly dozen exterior claims, there is one progress thread (6-9), which has a total of seven posts.
Screenshots are what we need. Something simple and catchy, to say to members "look at my awesome sauce".

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:44 pm

The reason you only see 6-9 is because all of my other claims were completed over 5 months ago, and since then all the progress threads that went with them were cleaned out (deleted) to save space. Screen shots of my work and others can be found in our gallery on the main page

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:49 pm

This is going somewhat off track, and I am not just blaming you alone, Noir. The problem here is very real, and you all need to acknowledge it. Whether or not you believe that TR is suffering, it is. From the perspective of someone outside of the Core, it is. And I am not alone in my opinion, as you can see. If you think that the Core can complete Morrowind with minimal help from non-Core members, then be my guest. If you actually pull it off, I will take back everything I have said in this thread.
But, by denying that there is a problem with TR, you are only justifying my claim that the Core is out of touch with the "common man" of TR, and too wrapped up in your Core duties to see what is going on.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:56 pm

I agree that TR changed. Not in the good side though. I'm kinda discouraged to make my claims (and I'm having one which I only made the layout of for reaaaaly long time now). Something's wrong.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:15 am

Garriath wrote: Let's look:

Rodan
Yinnie
Prometheus
Vorrheis
Spider
Morden

Prometheus - still drops by, is busy with personal life.

Yinnie - for all the core is letting out, yes thats right, I think the core knows more than the average member, Yinnie is busy with her personal life.

Mordan - Is pissed about things, I guess.

Vorrheis - Busy with store openings, personal life.

Spider - Strangely dissappeared around the time that the hurricanes hit Florida, which was where he was at the time. There has been no word since then, and he's either dead, homeless, poor, or too busy with his personal life right now to care about TR. There was nothing about him suggesting he disliked any part of TR.

Rodan - I dunno.

You forgot Arcadea, though, he left recently.

---
And Dex, Asylum stops by now a hell of a lot more than he used to.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:28 am

Well, I know that with some of that list, disillusionment with TR was one of several reasons to go.

And as for Yinnie ... she said all there is to say in her goodbye post. We're not keeping anything from you. she's busy with her life as a junior manager with a large multinational, and is jetting hither and forth, doing deals and visiting business partners and such. That'S why she had to leave.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:20 am

The problem is that good interior and exterior modders are few and far between, and I think we've lost more than we've gained over the last few months. I've not been able to do as much work on my claim since school has returned from summer break as I would've liked, but the progress I've made on the jungle lately has lended me some new inspiration- its finally starting to look like something.

It just seems like everything obvious about tamriel has already been discussed, and we seem to have a dearth of creative ideas to expand the place.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:08 am

I know exactly what you mean dex, I've been seeing it ever since we got on these new forums. The fun really is gone for now. an overly workaholic attitude has been forced into all of us and that's whats doing it. It simply isn't fun and relaxing anymore, it feels like a job, not a hobby.

happiness is +30% productivity, if we enjoy doing the work, we'll want to do more and get more done. I think how things have been becoming increasingly bureaucratic is whats really hurting us, loads of requirements and steps towards getting something done take away our enjoyment. But if we don't have them, we turn out crap n00bish work and might as well not be a cohesive mod like with the original claims system.

Actually, I wonder how many of us have played morrowind recently. Why don't we all take a break for a day or two from working and play morrowind. Remember what we loved about the game and why we wanted to make TR. Hopefully then, our drive and enjoyment will be renewed.

Negrodomous · Post by **Negrodomous** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:11 am

i still have fun here, but it's not AS fun. i log on to 3-4 forums at a time.

Actually, I wonder how many of us have played morrowind recently.

i havent played in about 5 months, i dont even have a game started on pc

Seran · Post by **Seran** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:18 am

I want to say this.
First off.
being in the core isn't any easy task.
And in many retrospects it's work.
I don't know any way around that
I'm sorry. Maybe have good friends around.

Also.
Many of those central ppl move on whit other things.
And many are not really gone.
But just not active.

I think you guys should really focus on the things that makes you guys actually like being here
And what makes you stay around.
Might wanna just make something that is yours.
Make something up.

Or just play some morrowind.
If the things are crap and isn't added, who cares?
Sure this takes forever but it's moving atleast.
It have always been like that.
If your anything like me you guys want it to happend now.
But it can't really be rushed.

Thats what I learned off the core.
And enjoy the time you have here.

Katoth · Post by **Katoth** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:22 am

I just started playing again recently. I regret ever leaving my keyboard in the first place.

I'm glad this issue has been brought up I've noticed it as well. I'm not going to point any fingers. I'm not going to say what or what doesn't need to be done. It's not my place to do so.

Don't get me wrong. I love it here. Love the company thats shared. This place and these people are great for even trying to rebuild an entire world.

With that said, lets all lighten up a little bit and have some fun eh?

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:47 am

I recognize the problem and I sometimes feel the same way. But it is something the core, or anyone else for that matter, can actually fix? I don't think so. When you mod a lot and lose touch with why you're actually doing it, you start to look at it as work, as something you really must do. But you were just doing it for fun in the first place.

If the fun is gone, perhaps it's good to take a break, as Eraser said, and find out why you were modding in the first place. Or at least grab a beer and slide a good CD in your stereo and relax. Because, after all we're all here for fun. Nobody's gonna blame you for relaxing.

I do confess that not all aspects of my position of HoR make me jump out of bed in joy in the morning. But most aspects I do enjoy, but am I supposed to go around the forums cheering? That won't do anoyone any good. I see Map 2 interiors are nearing completion and I get my drive from actually wanting to get those done. And I enjoy doing this. I'd like everyone to enjoy whatever they're doing for Tamriel Rebuilt, but I really think it's up to themselves. I'm afraid there's little I, or anyone else, can do to make people enjoy modding more.

And all the modders that left, left for totally different reasons. Some left because real life was taking too much of their time. Some left because they were just fed up with modding for time being. Indeed, some probably left because they didn't like the way things were going over here. I don't see any way to improve this though. Just a regular claim update from core members isn't going to help anyone. It might inspire for a short time, but if the fun of modding is gone for you, it won't return from a few screenshots.

I think it'd be great if people would start with themselves and try to actually have fun while modding. I think this will reflect upon the forums and would make the forums a more pleasant place.

And, hey, cheers! I still love Tamriel Rebuilt and everything we've accomplished. And I am absolutely sure we will get a lot done in the future.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:53 am

...you know...I think that once you experience modding, and commit yourself to it, even the tiniest bit...you are gone from actually playing the game for good, or at least for months. Just head over to the ES Forums, and ask all the heavy duty modders there the last time they actually sat down and enjoyed exploring dungeons and caves. They'll say without hesitation it's been months, and they've forgotten what it's like. They don't feel that same pull as they used to anymore. At least thats how I feel.

Katoth · Post by **Katoth** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:55 am

Well said Vegor. Well said.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:58 am

hmmmm, Im not sure where all this came from, or why I didnt see it earlier.

People didnt leave because of any policy with TR, it is just a fact of real life,

people get busy with real life stuff like dating, school, work

also, some people are stopping modding for ES3 cause of all this talk about ES4, and yes there is a definite laul in progress because of that fact in my opinion, that people view ES3 as the past.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. Noir makes an excellent point, that if you dont enjoy doing something, try your hand at something else, etc.

Also, about progress itself, I think people out side of the core for some reason are getting a misrepresentation of the progress that is goin on. Map 2 interiors are just about done, and quests are being made for map 1, not to mention exteriors are being done (although dropped way too often)

The point though is, that TR isnt work, it is supposed to be fun, but just cause it is fun doesnt mean we cant have a sense of accomplishment. If we just sat around and did nothing then we would turn out like all those mods that have failed, and I dont think anyone would really wanna see TR fail. And its all about setting goals, and the only reason the core urges sometimes for some claims to be claimed is because we cant do it all.

We are open to suggestions on how to make something better, but saying blanket statements about us being bad leaders or pushing members away is really unfair to us. We cant stop good members from leaving, and we cant create new good members from thin air, but they are out there, and I believe within each member of TR is a person who can be a great modder.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:06 am

double post

also, the reason I personally dont post as much as I do on the forum is simply that any time I have free I am working my ass off on making these quests because I am the critical path for map 1 right now being the only faction quest maker. So map 1 quests will basically take as long as I allow them to take currently. And I badly wanna have a playable map 1

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:15 am

I have always said, and have explicitly mentioned when I wrote the "Join Now!" page, that if you don't enjoy making Morrowind mods, that if you are more concerned about the finished product than the process, then this may not be the project for you.

Now, some of the people here, such as Noirgrim, fall into the "more concerned with the finished product" category. These people will be more goal-oriented and productive and will probably not have too much fun. In most cases, these people fall out of the project when things slow down out of frustration of not seeing progress. Noirgrim decided to stick with the project and speed it up, rather than dropping out (a decision I never understood), but this is him.

Other people, fall into the "love modding, product is not as important" category. These people tend to enjoy life around here as long as it stays at the project pace they joined at. Once the project speeds up, it starts to feel like work, and these people tend to fall out. Those who stick with it in this scenario are those who hope things will eventually slow down or those who actually enjoy the accelerated modding they get to do.

The pace of this project is always decided upon by the core members, and it just so happens that the current core is mostly the "product-oriented" type. And it will only get more so. Core members are now decided more and more based on their ability to "get things done", and this is a trait almost always found in product-oriented members. In the first year of the project, the core members were decided more on experience than efficiency. So, if you are upset about the pace the project is currently setting, then you will need to get used to it or leave. This will only get worse as the core team evoles into including only the most productive, rather than the most senior, members.

Myself, I think I'll stick with it. I am a lover of modding, not necessarily the end product, and I hate the "new pace", but I have always believed in this project and have never been able to fully leave it. I'll probably always be along for the ride, although I no longer have any interest to be in the core team.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:09 am

If what Lord Gallant says is true, this project has a very bleak future.
Right now, I will estimate that over half of the actual work for this project is being done by the Core. It could very well be much more than that. As LG said, Core members are being selected based on their productivity. If this is the case, why do you even have regular members? So we can work on the claims that you guys don't want? We aren't here to nibble at your table scraps.
Remember when new members would contribute? That hasn't happened in a long time. It has been at least two months since someone joined and began work on something. No disrespect towards the new members intended, but this sucks. I do not know why this is, because I am not a new member. However, as Maddox says, the next best thing is complete speculation. The vast majority of our "big-time members", those of us who slam out work like it is nobodies business, are in the Core. New members come in, see the Admins and GMods doing all the work, and the majority of regular members contributing by posting "keep up the good work" comments.
Now, I have seen a "mightier than thou" attitude from several Core members. I don't mean that you guys act condenscending towards the rest of us common folk, but you certainly have acted above us. During the whole Stumpy-Gooble crisis, the Core didn't really care. One Core member summed it up by saying "this is so beneath what goes on in the Core." Well here is my question to you all. What goes on in the Core that is so important? Why not let us in on your big secrets? That Stumpy-Gooble crisis had us normal members ready to riot, and apparently it was beneath you all? Why is the Core so detached? Do I really need to draw a parallel to MEMod?
I apologize, because this is a blanket statement. For some of you, all of what I said is true. For some, none of it is. But for most of you guys, at least some of it applies. Look at this thread, you can see that us "common folk" are worried that the Core is becoming too aloof. I am not trying to start a war here. I am posting this because, as the title suggests, I am genuinely concearned about the future of Tamriel Rebuilt.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:28 am

the reason we didnt care about that situation is because Gooble was literally a member for a week before making ridiculous generalized statements about the project.

A person who has a one week knowledge of TR can not possibly understand how we operate. The core doesnt have secrets, and we do do most of the work now and days it seems, but that is not of our choice. We do that because it seems no one else wants to do it, I personally would love for someone with interest in quest making to help me, but no one has stepped up. Noir would prolly love if modders would come along and claim exteriors and finish them up nice, but the truth is, modders come along, pick up a claim, look at it for 1 day, then decide to drop it, putting an excuse about real life, well theres nothing the core can do about it if people keep dropping claims? how can we continue to trust new members to take claims if we keep getting screwed each time they do. The core makes hardly any regulations anymore, because we feel the most important parts are in place.

I know everything feels topsy turnsy right now people, cause a few very respected members are no longer as active as before, but it is up to people who arent quite new, and have proven themselves as people who can continue on and build on what other people before did, and we believe we choose core members based on that. On whether they will stick around and help. Yes they must be people who actually have done modding work obviously, because there are too many duties that me and noir and hermit and others are handling currently, and we need members on the core who we trust with physical modding duties to take off some of that pressure. So lets stop with this ridiculous conspiracy talk, because the 2 comments that have most shocked and actually hurt me personally have come from 2 of my favorite TR members on this thread.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:13 am

Mordan - Is pissed about things, I guess.

I'm not angry. I actually stopped posting on the forums and started learning how to model, UV Map, and export to Nif with Milkshape.. then my 30 trial ended and I dropped modding altogether and started painting artwork with my tablet in Corel Painter 9.

I managed to model and texture some crude Iron Spears...and i've just assembled a new computer, so i can do the Milkshape trial again... i suppose i'll finish off those spears and post them.

As for TR, the forums don't really interest me anymore. They seem quite boring, and no offense to the new members, but i really tire of reading the same poorly thoughtout ideas over and over again. It just seems that there is nothing to draw me back to the forums, and maybe thats what other people are feeling too. Maybe you guys can provide a bit of feedback, or encouragment, do a little PR work, or rejuvinate certain aspects of the project. I don't know.

I realise that you have to find your own enjoyment, but as we're seeing in this thread, i'm not the only one who find the project getting stale. All work and no play make the forums... something, something... I don't know.

I don't suppose i'll be doing TR for much longer... i'll most likely get back to my true modding love: Halflife... or rather, its new sibling, Source.

Jacurutu · Post by **Jacurutu** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:31 am

A lot of the time, I've noticed that a certain apathy develops in the new members. They make a post, make a claim . . . and that's it. It seems that they lose interest almost immediately. Perhaps this is carrying over into TR's main body, leading to a lack of interest in more and more people. I don't know what we could do about this, but I think that it's a problem.

Furthermore, I've noticed that a lot of the time people make their introductions and get sent over to the literature forum. People may post a story or request a story, and then they just leave. Other times, someone comes and reviews one piece and then just leaves.

The only progress updates I see are that of books written by members that are anything but lore experts. I have read several threads lately that have given me headaches, while they are praised by other members

Well, what can I do? If I were to thrash someone's story, what would that accomplish?

the reason we didnt care about that situation is because Gooble was literally a member for a week before making ridiculous generalized statements about the project.

This was the point Dexter was making. If the core considers an issue too small to deal with, it can fester into something they can't deal with (which is perhaps the situation we have here). A core involved in guiding the rest of the forum and its people is far better than a core interested purely in work. Part of being a moderator or an administrator is moderation. Dexter calls what happened a crisis, the core calls it something ridiculous, betraying the lack of a connection between what is becoming two separate entities.

Lord_Gallant · Post by **Lord_Gallant** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:16 am

In case I was one of the 2 you mentioned, Majra, I need to emphasize that I was not directing the "may not be the project for you" comment towards you. If I gave that impression, I apologize. I was not directly responding to your post above me but just giving my opinons on the topic in general. I feel that anyone who genuinely enjoys being here belongs here. It is just that I would advise new members to be mindful of the reasons that they are joining, and whether a focus purely on the end product is worth it to them. To you, it obviously is.

Also, I would like to clarify they I did not intend to portray the new core selection process as a step towards doomsday. It is just that I think new core members should have BOTH the experience (for stability in the project's direction/"good-ole-days" factor) and the productivity (for core effectiveness). I also think that core members should not make claims, but that was never a popular decision. Long story short, I think that the core bites off more than it can chew. I know how overworked you guys can be. But, if you are the "product-oriented" types, perhaps that is just what you see as the necessary evil to push the release map. I have always been "modding-oriented", and therefore I didn't really belong on the new core.

As for "secrets", there are a very few things that are not meant to be known by the rest of the TR community. The admin forum is simply used to talk about specific members and issues (such as bannings, forum interface changes, reviewing, etc.) that would be best if they were not broadcast to every member whose business they are not. For example, if the core votes to ban someone, there is no need for the rest of the TR community to listen to the mods' reasons for the ban and it would only be harmful to the individual if we decided not to ban yet broadcast the negative points about the person everywhere. I agree that core members tend to be slack when it comes to claim updates, but this just goes back to one of the reasons why I don't think core should make claims. It isn't as if they don't have enough on their plates.

If your complaint is "what the hell is it that they have on their plates?", you could always ask them. Different mods have different responsibilities, such as map merging, managing reviewers, claim granting, website updating, and forum moderating, to name just a few. Exactly who does what I will leave to them.

No secrets, no conspiracies, no doomsday, just a lot of workaholism and (perhaps due to this) a little elitism. However, I think that even though some of the core treat others with a slightly elitist air sometimes, it is far better behaved than the crass newbie-unfriendly comments that were so prevalent not too long ago.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 10:24 am

I have posted only once in months, but I reckon you all need a good smack on the back of the head if you think things are going good. I agree a lot with Dexter on his points, but he doesn't go far enough... Time for a little story... (skip that if you want because I get to the point below)

When I joined back in may or so last year, TR was going good. There was progress - visible progress. But TR had a bit of an elitist problem (it happens in all forums, so don't take it badly as TR is certainly better that a lot), but it was enough so that my first post saying "Hi" was met with complete silence and apathy that had I not have been hypnotised to an extent by the actual project, I would have left then and there (I later deleted my "Hi, introduction and so forth")

I couldn't do much for TR modding-wise (exteriors mainly) so I went to the Lore forum instead. Back then, all books were done in one thread (which was dead) and I revived some life back into it by writing a book of herding guars (IIRC "The Guarherd's Art") The actual work seemed to inspire some new people to take up into the lore and writing part of TR, but no core members or veteran modders showed any interest to the life in the forum.

Then eventually, we FINALLY got a Writing and Literature forum up and running. And there was a lot of action in there, with me, Balin Minister, Jacurutu, Majra, Marauth Alai'Raan (sp?) etc. and later The Writing Wraith as well as many others making books. Granted, there were far too many adventure and assassin books (although the Writing Wraith's clever assassin book about hornets and spiders was excellent) so things needed to change... only it did for the worse.

A new system was initiated. We had to write books which fit into specific categories, we were limited to story books only (any attempt at a non-fiction or science/magic/alchemy book was met with a "Only write story books" response) and obviously, things got bad there. Also, you could no longer have a discussion about the broader lore behind any books (that was swiftly deleted, instead of being moved to the Lore Forum in a new thread) and all the good slots were taken up by utter adventure / assassin crap. Not only that, but any new ideas for stories which were posted were not checked over, so you'd be scolded if you wrote the book in the first place. Any attempts to point out how that was killing the two forums was scoffed at (with also "Don't you know how hard the core works!?"), and naturally those forums largely died.

At about the same time, the Lounge closed, and with a draconian style "stay-on-topic" in every thread, new members could no longer get aquainted with each other, since the core seemed largely isolated from everyone else. As things got very impersonal, a lot of good people started leaving. I didn't leave, I just starting lurking instead.

In short/To the point:
- The core is too secretive and isolated. Open up if you don't want to be doing the whole thing yourself, cause by lurking, I reckon I've gotten a good perspective of things of late.
- Elitism has gotten worse. Not sure what you can do about that, and it is not isolated to the core.
- Lore and Writing were two things which really bridged the gap between those who wanted to take part but like me couldn't in any significant way. Fix that up. It was never perfect to begin with, but how it was then is better than how it is now.
- Screenshots of progress! A screenshot is instant, and says more than "Landscaping 10%, Textures 0%, etc." Interiors, exteriors, etc. You'll start getting some more offers of help if people can see that they can actually do something.
- Updates too. Good to know you aren't beating a dead horse every now and then. Detailing is something which will get people interested again if you post more updates and more screenshots.
- Be more lax on things straying mildly off-topic. I haven't been able to see though if this has improved or not.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 11:40 am

Jacurutu wrote:A lot of the time, I've noticed that a certain apathy develops in the new members. They make a post, make a claim . . . and that's it. It seems that they lose interest almost immediately. Perhaps this is carrying over into TR's main body, leading to a lack of interest in more and more people. I don't know what we could do about this, but I think that it's a problem.

Exectly what happened to me. A few month ago I visited TR forums with pleasure, always finding something new and interesting to read. Now whenever I come there's nothing new to see. Nothing.
Whenever I try to get core feedback in a thread - they are silent. To get something from them I need to speak to them personally. And even than it's really hard to achive the result. Yes, Noi, I'm talking about Manziranche here. Core - the ones who control quality. Manziranche - well...go and see youself. Map 1, cell 20,23. I strongly reccomend you to actually go and see this ruin.
And the problem is not with Manziranche itself, the problem is with attitude. Me, personally, got offended that it was a bug report, an actual bug report which was supported by tons of people (Noir admitted it himself) and it was ignored. Ignored so many times I can't count. And actually after this accident I got really discouraged in finishing (or even starting to finish) my claim. Gone dropping it now.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:10 pm

I lose inspiration from time to time as well. It is inevitable with any artistic endeavour. But when I do, I try to remember why I am doing what I'm doing.
So why did I join this project? I joined because the world of Tamriel is such a rich and engaging fantasy world, with more history behind it than any other video game world I know of. And in such a world anything can happen. There is always something new and wondrous to be discovered, perhaps cloistered deep within some forgotten cavern in the belly of the earth, or even drifting aimlessly through the sky. A fantasy world, like Tamriel, is not supposed to be the dull gray reality we see around us, but rather an idealized reality where there could be, and often is, something new and delightful, or perhaps sinister and exciting, hiding behind the next rock, or under the next bridge. I take pleasure in exploring such a fantasy world, and each place I create is really just a further exploration of Tamriel, facilitated by my imagination. So I wouldn't stop doing this even if I were the only person... heck there's a reason our end goal is near impossible- its the process of creation, of exploration, that makes it all worthwhile.

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:37 pm

As a relatively new member I probably am out of place entering this discussion. But as the overall outcome is likely to affect the future of the project, I cannot idly sit by and not intervene.

I do not feel the current apparent lack of progress is a fair guage of the state of the project. In the beginning of TR most of those working on the project were likely to be making exteriors. With so many focused on one aspect, the pace would inevitably appear fast. Now with most of the exteriors done and so much being done on so many different aspects of the project, of course things will appear to be going slower.

Also keep in mind that the work that is being done now is more important than what has been done. This is not to diminish that work in any way, it is quite impressive and those who were involved should be proud. But if we do not take our time and make sure that the game content we create parallels the quality of the world that has been created, all those efforts will be for naught. In the end it will be the quests that make or break Tamriel Rebuilt.

I do agree that the core needs to take a different (more active?) role in things. It appears to me that the problem the core is having is that they are assuming to much of the work on themselves.

Outside of TR I run my own business and have a full time job as the head of a crew of over 30 individuals. Before assuming these roles I worked as a freelance artist. I grew accustomed to doing everything myself. The hardest thing about being in a leadership role was learning how to delegate responsibilities.

What the core needs to be doing is less of the actual work and more of the planning and organizing. This is particularly crucial now as we are in a transition from creation of the game world to that of game content.

I am not suggesting that the core members should be disallowed to do any modding. After all that is why they are here. But as the leaders of the project they should try to take on less work themselves and focus more on the organization of the various aspects of the project. The organization involved in the creation of Morrowind Province was very effective, but as we move into the next phase we need to have an organized goal that pertains to the quests.

We currently have a lot of discussions going on about the various factions and the quests they involve. This is as it should be. The problem is there is little overall organization to these discussions. This organization should be (and is to some extent) carried out by the core, but with everything else they are currently involved in there is little guidance and things are falling into disarray.

Perhaps what is needed is a restructuring of the Core. As we add new aspects to the creation process, should we be adding new positions on the Core to govern the progress of those aspects? This would inevitably alleviate the amount of work each member has, allowing them to focus more on their particular responsibilities.

I know this suggestion has been made in the past and was met with resistance by the Core, but considering the fact that the issues that prompted that suggestion have resurfaced, perhaps it is time to reconsider that suggestion.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 3:57 pm

I tried adding new spots to the core, but it seemed there was a lack of people in the community actually familiar with the aspects we needed covering, so it ended up in me taking on more duties. And you are right I do feel overwhelmed in duties often, and that is the reason I dont have time to respond to every question from our large community. The point is complaining isnt gonna fix anything, from the most part you guys are pointing out problems that cant be fixed, which isnt criticism, it is flat out whining, and Im sorry I have to say that.

If you have something we can actually do to fix it go ahead and say it, cause at this point we have tried every damn thing you can imagine and we still have people yelling at us at every turn. So do whatever the fuck you want man Im tired of trying to be friendly Majra.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:27 pm

How to fix it ? Quite easy actually. Divide all responsibilities among more people. Nobody ASKS you take take and carry all by yourself. It's you fucking "overdevotment". You know it's something like making martyrs out of yourself. A bit annoying if you ask me.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:33 pm

who wants some of my duties go ahead and take some if you feel you want them, just dont give up my duties in 2 weeks and say you dont like it, cause when people give up on things it causes 100 times more work for someone else. So if someone feels they can do one of my duties step up and say it, but if that person leaves like the people I entrusted before with my duties then I will never again do it. I entrusted Jac to stay and take over BoT and he has, and for that he has my respect. If someone feels they could take care of
Dres Interior mesh making
Quest Making for the factions
OoT model reviewing

go ahead and step up, otherwise if you dont have enough balls to actually do any of em, stop complaining about me doing them cause Ive had enough of it

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:37 pm

I'll step up as OoT model reviewing. I've done it before when taking screenies plus it would be easier for me to take the screenies before the mesh is added.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:45 pm

ok, good some good has come of this thread

I'll start a thread discussing your duties.

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:47 pm

I'll offer my meagre services for Quest Organisation.

Graff.