I'm Concerned

[Majra]

hehe yer already doin that though with the mages guild arent you? which reminds me, I need to check that thread out

[Graff]

Haven't looked at the Mages Guild Quests for a couple of weeks, unless that was sarcasm, too used that in RL to tell the difference anymore...

[Majra]

was not meant to be sarcasm

[Graff]

Ah. Like I said, everything sounds like sarcasm now...

I was never organising the Mages Guild Stuff, just trying to get some ideas together...

Graff.

[Uldar]

Sorry Majra, and to the rest of the core. I never intended my post to come across as just more bitching about what you are doing. I am impressed with what has been done and have a great amount of respect for you because of it.

My intent was to try to find a solution to the problems that have been addressed by this thread, and in my assessment of the situation, the solution is for the members of the core to assume less responsibilities, thereby freeing them up to be more focused on their administrative duties.

I am glad to see that Stalker and Graff have stepped up to remove some of the burden from your shoulders. I too will volunteer my services for the development of factions and quests.

I am already involved in the discussions for the Thieves Guild. I have been working one of my quests around the whole Telvanni vs Mages/Imperials quest line so I know a good deal of that situation. I have also been involved in the discussions for making Daedric cults as joinable factions, so if we decide to implement those I can help there too. I do not seek any title or authority, merely volunteering to work with you in the coordination of all these factions.

I also understand scripting and am fairly far up the learning curve with the creation process of quest making. I will offer any assistance I can in these areas as well.

If there is any other way you feel I may be of assistance, please let me know and I will see what I can do.

[Theo]

Let me add my modest opinion from other side (newbies).
When I posted my "I am new here" thread, I was not quite sure, whether I can do something of real value for this project.
I have no acces to CS (for now), so I cannot do exteriors, interiors, NPC's, quests, scripts... I cannot draw or even model. All I can do is limited to the posts I can write.
My literary abilities are limited, I am just a student of theology and logics and as a Czech, my English is also not on the level of you native speakers.
I no only little about lore, but I try to research and learn (however I should maybe do more research for my thesis). But I was told: Be welcomed to post to literature forum, suggest some quests...
The burden of literature forum seems to be carried mostly by people with some writing experiences, I could not imagine how seriously you guys take this project. I suggested some books (crappy they could be) and one of them was added to BoT just thanks to extensive editing of Haj.
Then I tried to post some Ideas to quest discussions. There is a lot of cry about quests for map 1, but I really do not know what could anyone do about it. I posted some suggestions for Thieves and Fighters guild, but they are simply ignored by everybody. As are other 200 threads in quest discussion forums, I read.
Ok, posting a thread "let's make quest about player traveling to moon to retrieve lost hammer of stars in order to kill Azura..." is one thing and actually making a real quest is another. However when I tried to find some list of NPC's or interiors for which quests should be written, I found none and have no idea how to write any quest actually applicable in game.
Don't be surprised, that I feel like causing more troubles then profit and am thinking about leaving this project.
Either make something that even members with my poor status could contribute (the list of claimable NPC's and interiors for questwriting would help a lot - so would some official approval of suggested quest lines, which would make them claimable), or Ban them all, clean the forums and do all work yourself.
This can be forum for people who prove themselves in building TR and can do some productive work with CS or forum for everywhone, which will result mainly in people posting their ideas, stupid and repetitive they might be (but sometimes original, imaginative or at least entertaining, which adds the good fun to the project as discussed).
So, can anyone from the core say me sincerely, whether I have something to do here or not? If not, I will leave without being insulted a bit and will save more of my time for a real life at least.
Perhaps some smaller group of 'Devs' would do better progress if they would not have to bother themselves with forums full of stupid and useless posts.

EDIT: Sorry, I did it again... Why do I still think that you people here have nothing better to do than to answer my posts. The fact that I can allow posting here ever day does not mean that others just ignore discussions going.
You have done excellent and professional job so far and I can but stand in a great respect before you. however I still think that what I wrote is truth.
Perhaps I should have put it just more politly and respectfuly.

[Uldar]

@ Theo: I have been working with you on the Thieves Guild quests and your input has been valued. Do not take the recent lack of activity by me and others in that particular thread as an indication that your efforts are being ignored. I had missed your Jan 11 post and only recently read through it. I am still trying to wrap my head around some of the suggestions so that I can respond to it in total.

[Majra]

well you cant really write quests without access to the CS, I mean you can make generalized things, but that doesnt really help too much. When we talk about quest discussion we really need specifics, and its more than just a list of NPCs, its locations, items, scripts needed, dialogue etc.

You have contributed in compiling the quest line for fighters guild, which I have kept track of, dont take my absence in posting as absence from watching. I have been overlooking all the progress on quests. As far as misc quests, I think for the most part they are limited in development right now until the factions are dealt with. So yes, I do put off some quest aspects in order to organize more important ones, but that doesnt mean at some point I wont check it out, I just cant be everywhere at once.

Uldar, I wasnt directing it at you, and if you feel ready for quest making for serious quests, I am fine with giving you the imperial legion quest line to make. It is ready to be made, so if you want, I can send you that information so you can start making them.

[Theo]

Please read my post edited

Concernig the quests. I could specify the quests for FG more, no problem. Big amount of job for Telvanni and Imperial Legion was also done, my hat off for Majra and Haplo as well as for Jac for Mages Guild.

Are those questlines finished or do they need some other development?

[Vernon]

Concerning the departure of Andrew, I specifically remember being slagged off by veteran members for having an [unpopular] opinion on it. I am not going to name names. These people probably didn't even have the first clue as to what the nature of the problem was, yet it was treated as something so trivial. Well you may or may not know who you are - you probably don't care either. That's fine by me.

[Colostriph]

As lord gallant said earlier, it seems that most moderators are chosen for their skills and productivity, and not actually their moderating skills. Now, believe it or not, this was the first forum I ever went on. My friend Dawn, who has been on thousands of forums, owning many herself, has been moderating and chating ever since she could touch a key board.

Now, she`s a year older then I, and when I invited her to my house, (I was on the forums at the time), she started to go through the posts. The first thing she said was that our "core" was a bunch of anal pricks. No fun basically. I responded by saying that they where fine, and that I`d blahblahblah. Anyhow, basically she wasn`t impressed.

Also, another thing. I never liked how the core kept secrets. Once I was chatting to sniper about what was the plan to clean up narsis, and he told me it was "core discussion"

Excuse me, but something as trivial as how we`re going to fix up an FPS monster is supposed to be kept secret? Other things:

The Dres meshes. Personnaly, and this is my opinion, do we give a dam if other people take our meshes? Post on the ES forums that they`re our meshes, and then voila, problem solved. (remember, this is my opinion). Running after 12 year old dumasses who`ll die virgins because they`re claiming to steal our work? Screw them if they`re acting like shitwholes, it`s not like they`ll shut down our project.

Can TR not be a little more open? Or do we want to be secretive, and pretend we`re a bunch of "make shift nerdy cultists". My question to you.

[Majra]

the reason for the dres secret 1) is because of that incident 2) because its the only truly unique thing of TR, and we dont want others playing with them until we release. When we release, they can do what they want, but until then no.

[Uldar]

@ Majra: By all means, send the Imperial Legion my way. I do have a good deal on my plate as well: making the interiors for Almalexia's Artisans Hall, NPCs for Bal Oyra, Port Telvannis Clothiers Competition quest, among other things. But most of these projects require other events to occur before they can be completed, so I should be able to work on the Imperial Legion (which is one of the requirements to complete the Clothiers quest anyway, so I would only be speeding up the process.)

I also am in agreeance with the fact that the actual work on the Fighters/Thieves Guild, Morag Tong, etc. should not begin until the factions/quests of the main Map 1 story are complete. One of the things I have been trying to do in the Thieves and Daedric faction threads is keep the discussions to organizing these factions and not developing the quests too much.

I think it would be beneficial if, when we do finish the main factions, we have a well developed basis for the remaining factions. We have a lot of people who are willing and able to help build the foundation of these factions. We should take advantage of their willingness before we loose their interest.

[Hermit]

If desired, I could head the board of model reviewers. Since the next test is way off, I think I can handle that additional duty.

Also, if you want me to, I can set up - in cooperation with you and Eraser, of course - a code of things a model reviewer has to look for, and maybe even assemble a "test" download or something (I have several models of varying quality to make up more than one such tests).

And thank you, Graff and Stalker, for stepping forward. If someone else wants the head of model reviewers post, be my guest, I won't bite you if you take it.

@Colo: That girl really is called Dawn? Thought the makers of Buffy gave that character an especially odd name on purpose ... oh well.

[Vernon]

No offence, Colostriph, but you should pull your head in on this one. I have.

I din't know OOT model reviewing was something I could do. I would be more than happy to do it. I have 3ds max, so let me know where the stuff is and I will 'review' it.

[Dexter]

I had a long talk with Majra last night, and I think I figured out the real problem.
When I joined, there were three "classes" of members here. We had the Core, the new members, and the "middle" members, who were not in the Core, but still actively contributed. The problem is that most of those middle members are gone, and no new members stepped up to take their place. Why they were not replaced is anyones guess, but if we want this project to endure, we have to work to get those middle modders back.
We need to make an effort to ensure that new members feel welcome, and that their skills are needed. We should encourage people to learn as they go. If a new member fucks up an interior, don't revoke it, give it back to them with a copy of the review, and ask them to fix the errors.
Right now, there is a huge gap between the Core and the new members, which only a handful of us (myself included) are in the middle of.

[Hermit]

Okay, Vernon, thanks for the offer! That makes two.

Now, what does a models reviewer need?

Simple: He must know his way around models. His or her job will be weeding out bad models from good ones. Also, he must know what can be fixed with reasonable effort and what can't. For example, a missing bounding box on a model we have the.max file of - easy. A model with distorted textures and gaps and stuff that is from external sources - hard, if not impossible.

And experience with texturing and modeling is also very, very helpful.

Think you have what it takes? Just raise your hand and say "me, me!"

[Vegor]

I think that hits the spot quite well, Dex. Most 'middle-members' have either left or joined the core, leaving a gap which will take a while to fill. There are a few of those members left now, but I think some new ones are coming. However, a lot of members just join and leave within a month or so.

I think a lot of members that recently joined could become these 'middle-members' in a short while. A few dedicated modders have joined recently which have exceeded my expectations. The point is, we have to keep them here and we shouldn't scare them away. Most new members either get criticised and decide this is no place for them, or are just too overwhelmed with the amount of work being done around here, they're afraid to contribute little things. Additionally, as Dexter said, when all their work is being criticised and all their ideas burned to the ground, they'll leave soon.

We should try to give as much constructive criticism as we can, making these new members into dedicated modders who deliver quality work. I would urge everyone to do so and try to give as much constructive criticism as you can, to help new members on their way. I think the lack of this has lead to the gap Dexter mentioned.

[Haplo]

Hey majra, what exactly were those spots you tried adding in the core? Dex, in that last post, I think you really summed it up. Just get more 'middle members' and lighten the veil around the core a tad. I just noticed the addition of model reviewers. I like this. TR needs more 'groups' of whatever. Thats what we're missing...I think.

Edit: By the way, the new forum created for it has a misspelled word... It says Model Revierwers.

[Ender]

Good thread, and if one studies it closely enough, one can come to some conclusions on the "wtf is wrong?" subject.

Let's study the average person's TR life cycle for a moment here.


A person finds out about TR and becomes enthralled with the whole project's idea and amazing scope. After a few days/months of lurking around, the said person decides to join in the fun since they seem like they are open to everyone! Right now TR is like this amazing new land to conquer with epic quests and eternal friendships to be gained. The person in question is so excited about this project that can blow up, he "desperately" wants to be accepted in the team so he posts a "HELLO!!! YOUR PROJECT ROKS" post in the forum. That single post is the most significant thing in TR for that person, the replies it will have are crucial to his life in TR. If all goes well, the said person is now a member of the TR project and wants to do something. She soon finds out that deciding to do something and actually finding something to do are very different things. After searching for an hour and feeling overwhelmed, she is lost and cannot find anything even if it was the most obvious thing in the world. The feeling of frustration begins to creep in, now some post about their frustration while others fume inside, all the while her insecurity as a new member tends to make her see things where they don't exist.

Months pass and the member becomes more used to the life at TR (and internet forums in general) she posts around some new threads and does some work and that's it. One day she get's fed up, she is frustrated about the project for a long time now and she doesn't know why. Everything seem to bother her now, (core) members who seem too elitist, specific members behave like jerks and the project has some tiresome aura cloaking it... suddenly it feels like it is more work than fun! Who is to blame for that? The core/organization of the project. So she starts a crusade (thread) for the good of the project, in which she states that the core isn't doing it's job as they should be, they are elitist and that the organization of the projects is lacking. After some debate, the matter closes and the fire of frustration that was burning in her is now exhausted, content, she continues on doing what she did, with the occasional heated debate here and there.

Some more time passes and the member is now a great deal more comfortable in TR's environment. She concluded some work she was doing and now she is looking for more. The forums get more tiresome by the minute so she doesn't frequent here any more. She just does her work and that's it. At some point she gets in the core and then a new world unfolds before her very eyes! Now she CAN make a difference! She immediately starts working on something and decides to start making changes to the better immediately... only now that she is on the other side of the looking glass she realizes there is no looking glass... and there aren't any improvements that she can implement to make the project a smoother ride for members (at least none that she can think of right now) so she gets a responsibility and sticks with it. At first she is doing a nice job with it, but soon the fatigue kicks in, the same fatigue that threatened to envelop her while she was a member. She postpones work for "tomorrow" and posts in the forum less. All the while seeing a great deal of posts about the core's inefficiency and how the project is more work than fun. Suddenly she gets very weary and she loses her patience, she stops replying to a lot of posts and when she does reply is because someone said something that might suggest she is not doing her job as well as she should be, which makes her seem aggressive and elitist to new members. After enduring the same cycle for some time, she decides to step down from the core and become a honorary member.

She is now a lot more relaxed about things and starts formulating theories about the project's well being. She suddenly gets the impression that she knows what she is talking about and starts posting like she is a war veteran. All the while throwing some colorful labels like "core wars". She may continue to be on TR or may leave after a while. She does enjoy the access to the admin forum though.



And that is what an average person's life cycle in TR looks like to me (from what I can gather in the forums) Of course the above applies to me too so don't take this as the holy gospel, it is only what I think.

The above little story I posted is meant to reinforce the points I am about to make.
On Elitist behavior: As I said above, the new member's insecurity in TR's environment and the senior member's building frustration leads to that misunderstanding.
On the more work than fun concept: Partly a misconception because of the frustration/disappointment that builds up during a member's "life" in TR.
On Frustration: The no.1 reason that TR looks worse than it is. The causes for frustration are many little things that happen during the member's life in TR but are also some problems that can be traced back to the member in question and the project in general. Let me elaborate some more.

When someone first joins the project he has no idea what he is getting into. The vast majority hasn't even worked with so many people in their lives, let alone modded. That leads to an unfocused energy that cannot get anything done and soon bursts. How to solve this? Teach new members to focus. Teach them to set their priorities straight and clear from the beginning and the ride will be a lot smoother. What do I mean by that? Focus on specific parts of the project before working on something else. Don't try to do 10 different things at the same time. Don't get involved in 10 different things at a time. One step at a time is the only way this will ever work. One step and then another, and another until all is done. Set your priorities straight. Why are you here? What do you expect from the project? What are you willing to do for the project. What motivates you? If cracking jokes/socializing is your no.1 priority, you have no place here. Make a mental list and remember it every time you seem to lose focus.

This project is hard work for everyone involved. It will be until it is done, and by the way the enormous scope is not a good enough reason to slack around. Having fun means having fun working on the project. Don't get trapped in stasis, evolve, learn new things, do new things, improve the way you are doing things. Then take a look at how you used to be when you got here, amazing isn't it? Do not postpone stuff for another time. Do them right away, you will be surprised at how fast things are done in the CS especially when you know your way around it.

L_G, while I agree that the journey is more important than the destination, there HAS to be an end destination, or else it is not a journey, it is wandering in the woods lost. Relish every step of the journey, but keep going, or else you will become stagnant and before you know it, you will be imprisoned in a prison of your own making. (I have a flare for the dramatic, what can I say ).

With all of the above said, there are some things the core must be weary of. If you are frustrated about the project, trace the source of your frustration, and fix it. Since core members tend to be frustrated over organizational matters, think of something that might make things go faster and implement it. Having to scroll down a lot of times to see the entirety of the forums is not very good as far as I am concerned. Make everything as simple as possible but not simpler. Don't have a forum for every single thing or else you will end up with chaos. Of course I may be wrong with this one since I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to.
Keep everything as clean as possible. Create a "new members" forum that has everything a person starting with the project needs to know and handles all the introductory threads/questions. Make everything easily accessible. Posts that detail what someone needs to do to claim, for example, an interior, complete with links, should be clearly visible.

Lastly, another major problem about TR is that it is a bunch of individuals, not a team. Of course, the nature of the project makes it difficult to be a team, but I am sure you can handle it. Right now you look like fingers who are fighting each other, unite and you will be an unstoppable fist.

That's it, sorry for the extra-enormous post (the know-it-all syndrome of honorary members must be at fault ), but it was as close as short and to the point as I could get at this time of hour.

[Eraser]

You hit the nail on the head fluffy.

I think alot of the stress and frustration is self imposed. Also we've been too striated. It's become people in charge of each other instead of working with each other, and that has to change.

[Arthmodeus]

If anyone's wondering, Spider's not dead. Read his last post.

[presh]

Hi,

I'm a new guy, and had a few thoughts about this.

Well, I've been reading through all of this, and it looks like some good is coming of it. I have been hanging around TR for a long time, but it took me a lot of courage to finally join, because everybody here is doing such amazing stuff.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is this. When I joined, Mirabell PMed me and said I could PM her wth any questions. I did so, because I hadn't used TESCS much and she looked over my first few interiors, giving me a few pointers. And I am very grateful to her for doing this, because it gave me encouragement to post in the forums. I would like to see this happen with all new members who join. They get like a buddy, who can help them out with ideas and give feedback, without these new members having to post on the main forum.

This might be happening already, and if so I'm sorry for bringing it up. If it does happen already, fantastic, and I would like to be involved in this. If not, I would like to get a group together to do this - because it was so valuable to me.

EDIT: Sorry, I just read through this and realised its a bit off topic. But my sentiment remains.

[Katoth]

I think thats a great idea. New modders getting together to learn how to mod and use TES3CS, swap ideas, help each other out and what not. I'm sure this already happens on a much smaller level. As you already have a experiance in this. I think that new members should get together and help eachother out and keep their interest in TR alive.
This could be good for TR.

[Stalker]

Plus IRC channel or chat would be good too. Something like real-time lounge.

[Vernon]

Yep, Stalker - it would be nice to see the TR members on the IRC channel more often. Hermit pops by every now and again, as does Asylum, but not many others. If you don't know about the TR-dedicated IRC channel, read [url=http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=251&highlight=irc]this[/url].

Anyway, to start reviewing models, do we just jump onto the model submissions and check them out? Or is there a process that we should go by for this?

[Vegor]

The IRC used to be crowded back in the days when I just joined. hermit and zombies were always spamming the place . And there were a lot of members hanging around a lot of time. Now, there are usually 2-3 members idling, but that's it. And zeph is, and has been, always there .

[Graff]

Personally, I think the best way to keep new members interested in, and happy with the project is for volunteers to 'shepherd' a new member, i.e. one experienced member to check up on the new member once in a while to see if they have any problems with RL, TESCS, Progress, Lore, etc.

If the new member feels that they are part of the group and have someone to turn to if they are feeling unhappy about the project, then they're more likely to stay.

I'd be more than willing to volunteer myself for this, if it meant an increase in new members.

Graff.

[Vernon]

It is a great idea Graff. I have done this a couple of times, and I am sure there are many others. I helped Zalthor along with some stuff and he tells me he will be getting started on some stuff as soon as he gets some RL issues sorted out.

I think it is just a case of encouraging a member who has been around for a while to pick one new member and show them around, answering their questions and helping them with modding - generally just giving them a good reason to stick around.

[lac]

not a bad idea.
i think that if newcomers really want to be part of the project and/or want to feel that they're in, then they only have to ask around (as i did). One other thing that can help them, is a list of the members who could be asked if they have questions, or we should open a new topic especially for newcomers.

[Vegor]

A forum for new members is coming soon. The core already did a vote on this yesterday after Ender suggested it. It's goal will be to support people new to the forums and help them on their way. Any questions there would be welcome and no new members flaming or such.

[Lord Elias]

Hmmm...I like the idea.Like,making a "team" of people who can help newbies with TR.I bet there would be a lot of people who would volonteur.And we could make TESCS crush curses.Most of the newbies with TESCS think they now all already,so they dont read any of the tutorials.Maybe we could even make a small test to see if the modder know some"essential" things(lore,keys,scaling etc.)A new member needs aprohimetly 1-2 months to fit in and actualy do something.Helping them to go faster through that period would realy improve TR progres.

[presh]

I think a forum for new members is a good idea, as long as there were senior members willing to browse it to help people out. But I'm not sure that it is enough.

New members may not want to post their first work in the forum anymore than they would in one of the other forums, due to shyness etc. I know I woudn't have wanted to post my first few interiors anywhere someone would see them!

I like the idea of an individual buddy system with a more senior member better, as this allows one-on-one messaging and advice. So if there could be a team of a few people who then send a PM to each new member as they join, inviting questions and offering help, it would go a long way towards helping I think.

[Vegor]

Well it's up to people themselves to get these one-on-one 'relations' I don't think it's a good idea to force this on people. I'll take myself as an example. The first week I created some 30 interiors (by far the most productive week at TR for me ) and didn't really need anyone's help. I've had a year of personaly modding behind me and although i did need to get used to working for a project, with a few questions asked about how to claim I was ready to go.

Some people might like a more experienced modder to take care of them, but if they do, the should just ask for this in the (coming soon!) new members forum. I'm sure there'll be some members willing to help them out. Assigning tutors to every new members seems a bit pointless to me.

If you're too shy and too afraid of criticism from people, you might want to reconsider joining any project in the first place. As mild as we are here at Tamriel Rebuilt, you are sure to receive criticism at some time because we are a large project and strife for quality.

[Sniper4]

I haven't posted here yet... in fact... I haven't read all four pages of this yet either... but... here's a bit about me and...other things....


Do you know why I mod? I enjoy it. I love the feeling of making something new....
Do you know why I mod for TR? Because I can share what I make with others....

Modding is no fun when you do it alone.... I made a buttload of things for other games in the past.... and... never shared them. I got bored with modding those games and stopped. However with TR, people see what I do, and enjoy the things that I make. This is my "happiness" with TR. I love how my material can group with the material of others to make this big honkin' thing. We need each other....

I will admit that I am partially to blame for hurting the overall "communitiness" of TR a bit. Although I still stick by all the standards I made when I was HoR, I sometimes feel that I may have been a little bit harsh when it came to revoking claims.... towards the end, I was practically revoking things left and right.... I wasn't thinking about the people that made these claims.... I was thinking about the progress of the project. Of course some things do need a good revoking, especially when the creator has ran out on us with an interior full of misaligned tiles... but I will admit that a few of my last revokings were rather... thoughtless. I think that in the end of my HoR stage, I only cared about the project and not for anyone else's happiness or even my own for that matter......

I love building interiors.... but between the months of May and December, I only built one interior for myself....I cared so much for progress that I spent all my time fixing the claims of others who have left, just to throw one more int. into the yellow, that I didn't even bother to claim anything for my own enjoyment. As you all know, that eventually wore me down at the end of December .

We have to be careful that we enjoy ourselves, or else progress will fall. I started really slacking on my review board duties in December because they got so....tiring, and as a result, I knew I had to pass them on.... or else map 2 ints were doomed.

I guess what I'm saying here is: TAKE A BREAK! Enjoy yourselves! Eat, sleep, game, mod something else for a bit, get laid or if that isn't possible then fill your HD with porn!!!, play MW during your day off instead of doing the same old thing!!!!! I guarantee you that when you come back to modding, your productivity will be up big time, and you will pump ALOT out! I'm not saying that everyone should just be lazy and spam, but I'm saying that if you make too many "standards" for yourself, then you WILL burn out. I know that as a normal member, at least I can take a break when I need to.... that may not be as possible for core members, but you should all at least try. Don't feel that everyone is going to be mad at you because you decided to play MW for six hours instead of spending that time modding. Just do it! You will feel refreshed .

[Graff]

Mmm...Morrowind...Porn...

Graff.

[Arcadea]

These days I'm not very liked. I've caused many problems for the core but thier is a problem in TR and I think the core may need to reorganise a bit. Members have been comming and going very quickly wich cause things not to be noticed or for things to be left undone because thier is no record of it needing to be done. Sit down and right a list of what needs to be done and who is doing what not just in the core but with the regular members awell. Then see what needs to be done and see who is here and what they are good at so things that arn't covered canm be aswell look at spreading the resposibilities of the core out so it is more even.

[Vernon]

I don't know about that. This very thread clearly shows that the core does have the ability to take losses, regroup and move on. Not only that, but they have the ability to create solutions to problems such as the ones raised in this thread.

I don't mean to offend - I am merely asking. Why do always come along and say there is a problem? You should confront someone on IM or PM instead of dropping sly hints.

[Rian]

without theorists we would still have a technology level of the stone age. because i am a theorist i was extridited.

that is all i have to say.

[Stalker]

Let's do it Stumpy-style...
And once again Rian you have proved that you're the biggest prick ever.