Non-Inhabited architecture in Skyrim

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:07 pm

I would like to open this thread to initiate lore discussion about Skyrim, in order to give modellers some ideas, what architecture to model for Skyrim.
We need to be sure more then abut Skyrim architecture in cities and inhabited areas.
What will Skyrim need done is also ruins, caves and other non-inhabited interiors. In morrowind these are represented by:

1) Caves
2) Ancestral tombs
3) Dwemer ruins
4) Daedric ruins

Now what I suggest for counterparts in Skyrim, would be:

1) Ice caves.
2) Warrior tombs (I'l have to create some lore on Nordic burial rituals)
3) Falmer ruins (aka Dwemer ruins - logical)
4) Ruins of original Atmoran civilization.

What do you think?

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:32 pm

Don't Nordic burial rituals revolve around the body being immersed and then frozen in Stalhrim ice?

Graff.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:16 pm

You probably mean this quote from the Fall of the snow prince:

And so we brought the body of the Snow Prince, wrapped in fine silks, to a freshly dug barrow. The gleaming armor and spear were presented on a pedestal of honor, and the tomb was arrayed with treasures worthy of royalty. All of the mighty chieftains agreed with this course, that the Elf should be so honored. His body would be preserved in the barrow for as long as the earth chose, but would not be offered the protection of our Stalhrim, which was reserved for Nord dead alone.

Any other ideas on Nord's burial customs?

Phaen · Post by **Phaen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:46 pm

Would it be possible in Skyrim to have avalanches of snow blocking many roads, and the player needs to cast a strong fire spell at them to melt the snow?

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:59 pm

Ooooohh that's a nice idea - would the snow have to be a creature for the script to work?

Vernon, non-scripter.

Phaen · Post by **Phaen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:02 pm

Well, we could probably texture the snow as a 'creature' and give it resistance to everything but fire, and a huge weakness to fire. That would probably work.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:08 pm

Plenty of good ideas here... I especially like the avalanche idea. And I hope the mountains will be more difficult to climb in Skyrim than in Morrowind. Steeper, higher and dangerous... yes... And I hope we'll be able to build them higher than Red mountain, since it's miles away anyway...

Phaen · Post by **Phaen** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:17 pm

If I remember correctly, the lore said Red Mountain was the highest in all of Tamriel. Could someone clarify please?

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:26 pm

Red Mountain is the highest, but it's a gradual slope (seeing as the slope technically starts at Seyda Neen

. The Velothi mountains (which I believe are in Map 6) are nowhere as high or large, but are steeper, from what I've seen of the screenshots. But they appear higher because the slope is greater.

Graff.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:10 pm

@Nemon:

Throat of the World:
This is the highest mountain in Skyrim, and the highest in Tamriel aside from Vvardenfell in Morrowind.

Vvardenfell itself is sort of one big mountain. As graff said, slope is important.

@Vernon:

No, Phaen that wouldn't work unless you want to turn TR to some console game where player removes rocks, trees and icicles by blow of his sword.
Of course there can be some results of Avalanches in Skyrim mountains (blocked paths) but thing just about the animations... How to match heap of snow to terrain beneath it.

Ok, back to the topic. What do you guys think about Falmer ruins? I tried to search on these forums, but there is no similar proposal.

Nemon · Post by **Nemon** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:15 pm

Well well. In my opinion Red Mountain is nothing but a poor excuse of a mountain. What I would like is to actually having to climb for quite some time, not just walk up the occasional hump in the landscape only to descend down to right above sea level again. just my $0.02

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:00 pm

This is interesting page showing some prehistoric sites mainly in great britain. Might be used as concept art for some Nordic non-town sites.
[url]http://www.stonepages.com/[/url]

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:19 pm

About Stalhrim. Some Skaal said that Stalhrim is temporary to keep body from rotting until it is delivered to Skyrim.

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 5:24 pm

But it can last forever, correct? Or are the draugh those dead nords whose Stalhrim had finally melted?

Does that mean that the bodies are dealt with in the coventional way (i.e. burning, burying) when they in skyrim?

Graff.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:51 pm

Skyrim should not have just a renamed or newly textured version of the same stuff in Morrowind. This would make the game feel like even more of a grind. Also, aka is also known as, there is no logical connection between the Falmer and the Dwemer, other than that they are probably gone.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:15 pm

Sload Lord wrote:Skyrim should not have just a renamed or newly textured version of the same stuff in Morrowind.

No-one even implied that this would be the case. Also, why is the game a grind? I believe Theo is just trying to break up information into chunks. i.e. MW caves will be ice caves in Skyrim etc. Anyway forget it. :) I am preparing myself for making new tilesets for the next province we work on, whether that be Black Marsh or Skyrim.

Theo, keep in mind that Skyrim might be made on the new engine, or it might not. So don't worry about technical limitations and such just yet. The physics & script engine in TESIV will no doubt be awesome.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:26 pm

The list sounded like he was saying "let's rename these things and make some new textures!" We should think of something BESIDES ruins and tombs and caves. Particularily ruins, Morrowind had to many ruins and I'd like to not see a lot in Skyrim.

Look at bloodmoon, for example. We could expand on the berserks, making there some caves or longhouses filled with them. The witches could replace daedric worship, but they wouldn't worship in ruins. Lycanthropy should also be a very large part of Skyrim, mainly in the west, where it botders High Rock, the cesspool of lycanthropy (not tos ay that High Rock is a cesspool).

Phaen · Post by **Phaen** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:36 pm

Well, Werebears are the most common Lycanthropes in Skyrim.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:13 pm

Well, Sload Lord's comments have something on them. Noone was even thinking of retexturing of course, this thread is to discuss lore issues of possible architecture in Skyrim, before concepts are drawn and models made. (And that will for sure take a long time, so I not think this discussion of Skyrim is too early.)
However what he might think is that I am thinking along the lines Caves, tombs, ruins... too much.
That's true, but noone says there can be nothing beside that in Skyrim and I always liked to know something more about Falmer and original Atmoran civilization.
That would bring some new fascinating and mystical civilizations in game which always increases playability. And caves and tombs are evrywhere, are not they?

I am sorry for not working on lore more, but now I was spending all my TR time writing Fighter's guild quests and probably will continue in questwriting now, so I'll probably have no input in this thread for some time.

However I searched TIL through and through and did not found any detailed mention on Nordic burial ceremonies, few mystic mentions of Falmer and slight hints that there might (and indeed should) be remnants of Atmoran colonizator's civilization. See:

These first settlers named the land "Mereth", after the Elves that roamed the untamed wilderness which then covered the whole of Tamriel. For a time, relations between Men and Elves were harmonious, and the Nords throve in the new land, summoning more of their kin from the North to build the city of Saarthal, the site of which has recently been located by Imperial archaeologists in the vicinity of modern Winterhold. But the Elves saw that the vital young race would soon surpass their stagnant culture if left unchecked, and fell upon the unsuspecting Nords in the infamous Night of Tears; Saarthal was burned, and only Ysgramor and two of his sons fought free of the carnage and escaped to Atmora.

So already near Winterhold there are some archeological sites of original Saarthal and Elves also had some civilization there before being pushed out.

Abramul · Post by **Abramul** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:22 pm

We need fjords, so we can pine for them.

And of course, whoever makes them should get an award...

Seriously, though, better coastlines would be nice, and also REAL WATER-LEVELS! None of that "the Odai is a river despite being at sea level" stuff!

What form are the Velothi/Skyrim mountains, anyway? Crumple-zone, lava-volcanic, or magma-volcanic?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:04 pm

Abramul wrote:
What form are the Velothi/Skyrim mountains, anyway? Crumple-zone, lava-volcanic, or magma-volcanic?

there mountains not volcanes. and what is crumple-zone?

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:08 pm

1) We can change the water height in Morrowind CS.

2) Volcanic refers to how the mountains were formed, not whether they are volcanoes, right?

Graff.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:12 pm

i think the mountains are rock not lava

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:15 pm

Well, they are now, but what was being asked whether they were formed by volcanic activity or earthquake activity. In light in Red Mountain, I'd say the former...

...I get the feeling I'm going off-topic...

Graff.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:13 pm

Littlebros, you don't appear to know anything about the science that Abramul is talking about, so I'd advise you not say anything.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:35 pm

Abramul wrote:We need fjords, so we can pine for them.

*choke*

Slow-moving waterways would be great.

Leviathan · Post by **Leviathan** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:44 am

If there was to be falmer ruins they would probably be conseled underground since Falmers was experts on hiding and most elves in Nordic mythology lived underground.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:40 pm

That's a good point you made, Leviathan, but that would be the situation where Elves are still present in minority and are hiding from majority of Nords on the surface.
This might be a Nordic story for childern ("Mum, I saw Falmer behind the bush". "Sure you did honey"), but does not go with reality and against TR stance on Falmer.
However if there were some Elves before human settlement, thought they might be extinct now, they might have left some remnants in hardly accesible and uninhabited areas (There will be plenty in Skyrim I'm sure).
And I don't think Falmer would just hide underground during peek of their civilization. I think some awesome exterior ruins would not be completely without purpose.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:50 pm

What about frost giants? A couple more castles like his could be a nice touch.

I'm going to stress this point once again. You need to look at things to expand on Bloodmoon, not totally new things that are similar in idea to Morrowind. Morrowind and Bloodmoon had a totally different feel, and Skyrim should be closer to Bloodmoon.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:03 pm

Caves and burial grounds are a must, though it is just a basics.
Well. Falmer and Atmoran ruins must not (and perhaps should not) be so widespread as Dwemer and Daedric ruins. After all they are furhter in history and do not linger in Nordic consciousness so much. But there should be at least some...

Sload road, If you want Skyrim non-urban architecture be based on something else you are probably right. But what do you suggest then?

Berserker longhouses - How do they differ from regular longhouses in cities, except that Berskers dwell there?
Witches - They should not gather in ruins. Where then?
Lycanthropes - Do they need any architecture at all?
Giants Castles - Ok, but there can not be many as well. And they are just castles again, after all.

I intended this thread for discussion of posibility of architecture beside the regular one built and inhabited by Nords.
Maybe It was not so clear from the thread name. I'll change it now.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:43 pm

I'm pretty sure that in Daggerfall, witches gathered either in dungeons or simple houses in cities.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:46 pm

Those were off the top of my head, I'm just worried that it'll be the exact same thing with new meshes, which is very bad.

-Berserks kill people. They could be like smuggling caves, no real purpose, not very good loot, but great for working on your skills.

-Witches should gather in secret places, like deep in the forest or in caves. The Skyrim "temple" would have a problem with them, so there would be a lot of quests involving the two groups.

-No. But you didn't originally title this "non-city architecture" you titled it "things to go in Skyrim." Perhaps a shrine (not in daedric style) to Hircine filled with the buggers.

-There would be very few of these, ofcourse. Maybe 3 or 4. All of them should be connected to atleast 1 quest. Perhaps deep in the mountains there could be an enourmous castle, one which is involved in several quests and has a lot of minions living in it. That would be fun.

Another possibility:

Orcish raiders. I know most men are stupid, but maybe there is some claim to the barbarian nature the orcs are labelled with. Orcs could descend from their mountainous homeland into Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. These would be like a distinct group of orcs, while most other Orimer despise them. The would only invade through the Reach area, though.

Leviathan · Post by **Leviathan** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:13 am

Well one important thing in Nordic mythologi is the forest hides many mysterius creatures and vise women and witches that where outcasts tended to live in the forest. So the forest should defenetly be used in a better way then in Bloodmoon.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:45 am

I certainly appreciate your ideas, but just from gaming point of view:

PC decides to leave plotting with NPC's in rather civilized cities for a while and decides to go adventuring into the nature. Of course, it travels through icy mountains and dense forests fighting wild beasts and bloodthirsty creatures.
But what else can it meet on its adventures? What else should be there not to make his adventuring monotonous. What can he discover in the means of ARCHITECTURE.
Or all these great encounters with witches, Orcs, Lycanthropes and Berserkers will be placed in wilderness and caves like everything else? More exterior varity, I say!

Try to suggest idea for some new non-urban architecture to place in Skyrim. All this lore ideas are all fine and great, but this is not what this thread is intended for.

Leviathan · Post by **Leviathan** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:50 pm

What about a cursed forest that the player have to solve a few tasks to escape? People who have ventured the forest have never to be seen again. The dark forest is ruled by a witch coven, angry spirits or some daedra that fools unsuspected travellers in to their trap. The only way to break free from the hex is to visit some rune stones like the Bloodmoon mainquest and activate them to break the curse and restore the natural order.

It would be an intresting side quest if you where to find some important person that has been missing and was last seeing travelling the area. So you have to resque him and your self.

It could work if it was made like an interior that cancel out intervention spells so you actualyhave todo the quest.

Just toying around with possible ideas to make use of the wast forest that is found on the map. And since you break the curse everything will return to normal and not ruin the lore in any way.

CommonsNat · Post by **CommonsNat** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:21 pm

What about frozen over, ice filled lakes? Sort of the equivalent of Grottos(not exactly though), but with ice and water instead of rocks. There can be interior and exterior places like that.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:32 pm

I provided two ideas for architecture: a unique Orcish nomad architecture for the raiders in the Reach, and new frost giant castle peices (if you've never played Bloodmoon [which, from the way you call it "just castles," seems like] the castle is one big peice and very different from a castle).

So, what are you yelling at me about? Incase you didn't know, ice caves and Burial Tombs are already included on Solstheim, so our architecture ideas are about the same in quantity.

Garinator · Post by **Garinator** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:43 am

Could skyrim also have whitewater rivers? i saw this done quite effectively in everquest 2(nektulos forest).

The kept the water level normal but over the top of the water they placed some sort of object that moved in a "wavey" fashion and was textured appropriately. I should be able to dig up some screenies somewhere if someone wants to see it...

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:19 pm

Sload Lord wrote:I provided two ideas for architecture: a unique Orcish nomad architecture for the raiders in the Reach,

Well, that was not that obvious from your post. There is no mention about these Orcs having architecture of their own. I did not realize you have nomad's in your mind, for your description suggested me more an idea of sort of raiders just descending to Skyrim for loot and coming back.

Sload Lord wrote:and new frost giant castle peices (if you've never played Bloodmoon [which, from the way you call it "just castles," seems like] the castle is one big peice and very different from a castle).

No I didn't play Bloodmoon, but Skyrim is about four-five times bigger so I thought some new ideas would be needed. But we're already agreed on that castles.

Sload Lord wrote:So, what are you yelling at me about?

What made you feel, I am yelling at you? I really appreciate your input here, so you really do not have to be so touchy for nothing. Please let's keep this discussion civil.

Sload Lord wrote: Incase you didn't know, ice caves and Burial Tombs are already included on Solstheim, so our architecture ideas are about the same in quantity.

Aye! I thought they might be.

@Garinator: I dunno whether this is possible.
@Commonsnat: I hope there will be some

Prometheus' map already suggests presence of them, so there are nice chances.
@Leviathan: Nice idea. I guess that would have to be unique forest, anyway.

Abramul · Post by **Abramul** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:25 pm

Something I'd like to see: Waterfall caves. Maybe just enough of a ledge to leave a weapon on, maybe full scale caverns.