Alternative argonian sub-species...

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 12:56 am

Similarly to the separate types of Kajiits, Eyeball and I used to discuss possibilities for expansion in the Black marsh area through the use of multiple sub-species of Argonians.

I know that a good deal of concept art on these existed at one point... I believe that Dexter sketched one or two, and I also remember (but cannot find) a very crocodilian picture from Bethesda artists that fit my ideas on the Tanza-Ra argonians of the southern swamps. In fact, the only one I could find was by Zenorf, a long-gone TR member who is responsible for the famed 'Firstguard' armour.

[img]http://img151.exs.cx/img151/9625/jumper011lo.jpg[/img]
Zenorf's argonian concept seems perfect for a Sutadee argonian from the northern jungles. Agile yet powerful, crude looking and yet still intelligent enough to practice guerilla warfare against the dunmer slave raiders.

I'm looking to find those images again and post them here for future reference in the development of further Black Marsh lore. If anyone would be willing to lend a hand, it would be most appreciated.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:30 am

I wish I still had the drawings I did, but unfortunatly I think I threw them out during spring cleaning. They weren't too hot though, so I can do them again, this time more post-worthy.
Do me a favor, and describe to me the different sub-species. I remember there were giant gator-men, and I believe we discussed smaller gecko-things.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:37 am

I don't think it would be quite correct to call the different Argonian forms "subspecies" per se. Since the Argonians' adaptive ability stems from the hist, and the features of their forms are not therefore hereditary, it seems more "Argonian" to me to have them simply view themselves all as argonians. That is not to say that the Sutadee tribe would not look like that or be adapted to the environemnt in the same manner, but the name would really apply to the tribe, not the physical characteristics. So some scrawny argonian living with the Sutadee tribe would still be a Sutadee argonian - and through the power of the Hist may be able to, over time, become more and more like the other Sutadee.

While the general concept of having Argonian subspecies is quite awesome, the subspecies theme has already been taken by the Khajiit, so I think it should be a little different for the Argonians to make things more unique and interesting.

Anyway, about the art bit...

I can't seem to find an intact description of what each of the Argonian subspecies should look like, but if you would could list out their features, I'd be happy to do a bit of concept art...

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:05 am

Personally I don't think making Argorians the same as Khajiit in the terms of "subspecies" is a good idea. Think TES, think unique. I was thinking about this:
we have 4 different tribes (for example). So they should be more or less unique. Plus variety among Argorians won't hurt. Big bouncers, small and "filthy" traders, agile hunters (like the current Argorians). Think TES, think unique.

Massalinie · Post by **Massalinie** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:20 am

HOLY CRAP!! It's like a warrior Argonian! I like it! Could you get them gaurding their villages/towns etc in Black Marsh. That woul be SO cool. I think it would be great to have different "types" of Argonians, like stalker said.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:06 pm

4 tribes will sound a lot like a copy of Morrowind, the province right nextdoor. I was thinking a three-level caste system:

1. The common folk, probably atleast 50% of all Black Marsh Argonians
2. The warriors and skilled artisans. Probably most of the Argonians in the imperial towns and large cities. Every Argonian outside of the Black Marsh is a member of this tribe.
3. The Religious Leaders. These are very rare. They are probably only found around the Hist trees and Hist altars.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:16 pm

The tribes are not like the Ashlanders or the Houses of Morrowind. For one thing, they are not so much in competition with each other, because Argonians are not expansionist enough to care whether another tribe has more power/wealth/whatever than them.

And a caste system just seems kind of out of place to me.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:28 pm

The idea of another tribal race will be the same when they player first hears about it, and first impressions are hard to change.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:57 pm

Sload Lord wrote:The idea of another tribal race will be the same when they player first hears about it, and first impressions are hard to change.

Actually it is already decided that Argorians are tribal race. It will be impossible for them to survive otherwise. Yes, they can be compared to ashlanders but only in swamps. When I say "galish tribes" you don't think "skifian tribes", do you ?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:02 pm

No, but in a world with 10 cultures its a little different. How about them having no reference to being "tribes" in name. Just clumped groups, with an Argonian word for the group?

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:37 pm

Basically, here's what you want to know. In short.

There are five different types of Argonians. I had a three page post typed out explaining it all in big words and colorful language, but I got an error when I went to post it and it all went to hell. Catch me on AIM or MSN for more details, if you really need them. I promise you though, it's all worked out.

Morrowind argonians (average citizens, most westernized, merchants and laborers)
Sutadee argonians (taller, stronger, faster argonians)
Tolmei argonians (spellcasting, smarter argonians)
Tanza-ra (stupidly powerful, walking tank crocidile argonians)
An-Nurash argonians (sipritual leaders, keepers of the temples, closest to the hist)

Each tribe is not comprised of only one form of argonians; that would be silly. The number of argonians of each type in each tribe is determined by the local topography and the sorts of dangers present.

I'm really not pulling this stuff out of nowhere - it's been put together from (literally) years of research about argonian society, upbringing and geography.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:03 pm

Too much like Khajiit to me. Why there's such a division ? Khajiit is related to moon phases. Argorian to Hist ?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:19 pm

Would there be lots of tiny tribes, like there were lots of tiny Chimer Houses in the old days before they all united with the Great Houses?

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:24 pm

Okay it seems that really the big problem isn't with the concept but only with the word 'sub-species'. I'm gonna try to stop calling it that.

All argonians are inter-breedable. They're really all the same on a basic level, and they all produce the same young.

Those young (Eyeball and I never agreed on this, and found no lore for it) are either the Morrowind-style argonians, or are of another class altogether depending on your viewpoint.

After reaching maturity as an uncalssified argoniand, there is a ceremony called an argonian's naming day. On this day, they lick the hist tree. The hist then grants them specialized abilities, and therefore 'assigns' them to a certain task to fulfill for their tribe (THE TRIBES ARE NOT COMPRISED OF SOLEY ONE CLASSIFICATION OF ARGONIANS). In doing do, they are permanently and physically altered through the hist's magic.

The tribes of argonians were not determined in the same fashion as the dunmer houses. The dunmer DECIDED to have different houses at one point or another because of nobody cares why. The Argonian tribes do not fight each other, nor do they compete in any fashion. They are instead designated into tribes only to suggest which Hist they are descendant from. There is only one triber per Hist, and it is safe to assume that the tribes of destroyed hist were either completely destroyed along with their Hist (as NO argonian would allow anyone to harm their hist while they still draw breath) or assimilated into the other tribes. So no, no there are not smaller tribes.

Everyone clear on that? Because I'm getting very tired, very fast, of answering people asking me why I'm copying the kajiits. It's not the same as the kajiits, and it's all supported by Black Marsh lore.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:53 pm

I'll work on sketches of those six. I would say to expect them by the coming week's end.

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:32 am

I don't mind people using the word subspecies so as long as they know what it is referrring to with respect to the Argonians...

However my objection is with having a direct correllation of names to physicial attributes, and furthermore with having strictly defined sets of physical attributes at all. It seems to me that having sharply defined breeds of Argonians is not very "adaptable." Of course, having each Argonian's name, task in life, and attributes be connected is only natural for Argonians, but I think that having a limited set of forms, and a specific name for each, is not. The names could, perhaps, apply to the role which the Argonian fulfills, rather than the Argonian's form.

I also think that would make it clearer that the Argonians are not like Khajiit, and reduce the number of complaints.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:50 am

So you've decided to include multiple Hist? Yay!

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:59 am

Here's a concept sketch I put together for a spellcaster Argonian (Tolmei):

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Zalzidrax/Tolmei.jpg[/img]

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:24 am

Splendid !

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:55 pm

You can find the Argonian I did in my concept art thread. Here is a link: http://img187.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img187&image=argonian2jx.jpg

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:12 pm

Okay, I typed up just about everything that's been worked out for argonian races on notepad (to avoid it being lost to forum errors again). If you have any suggestions or want clarification on anything, you know where to find me.

To start off, I'd like to note that ALL the lizard-men of the southern marshes are all commonly reffered to as 'Argonians', reguardless of their tribe, appearance or abilities. There are however obvious differences that distinguish these races between one another. I hesitate to use the word 'race' because it generally means that they are separate, which could be no further from the truth. Argonians of any race start off their life cycles the same, all are interbreedable, and all produce the same young.

The races of Argonians are divided partially by tribe and geographical regions; more of a certain type of argonian dominates an area due to their inherited abilities. This is due both in part to natural selection and the wisdom of the Hist - on their naming day, a ceremony marking their initiation into adulthood, an adolescent argonian licks his tribe's hist tree. At this point, the Hist recognizes their potential and may decide to change them into one of the other races as seen fit. Note that an argonian begins life without any defining characteristics; they may or may not have horns or frills, their colors range from brownish to blue-green, and their bodies are generally smaller than the other races. This 'unassigned' race makes up the majority of argonians found outside of Black Marsh, as they remain in this state until their Hist deems them appropriate for other tasks. These argonians are the common laborers, with such menial tasks as collecting food or maintaining craftsmen's halls. Without the Hist trees, all argonians would remain forever in this state, thus the importance of the Hist to argonian society is apparent.

Should the Hist deem an argonian appropriate for a task, he may change them into one of four major races. These races are the Sutadee, the Tolmei, the Tanza-Ra and the An-Nurash. Each race's abilities are distinct, and they are expected because of this to take on roles in argonian society appropriate to them. The argonian racial ratio alters from one geographical region to another, as the more physically suitable argonians in each area dominate the populace. This fact, in addition to the declining number of Hist, has lead to the separation of the argonians into three major tribes, each of which is named for the type of argonian most common to it. These tribes do not compete or war with each other, but share a great sense of brotherhood in their task of protecting the last remainging Hist trees. The northern Hist is protected by the Sutadee tribe, the western Hist by the Tolmei tribe, and the eastern by the Tanza-Ra. The central region of Black Marsh is home to the An-Nurash, although it is not populated by any specific tribe. Instead, it is a holy place to the argonians in which their greatest spiritual leaders reside.

The population index of each tribe is roughly as follows:

The Sutadee tribe:
25% unclassified
30% Sutadee
15% Tolmei
15% Tanza-Ra
15% An-Nurash

The Tolmei tribe:
20% unclassified
15% Sutadee
35% Tolmei
10% Tanza-Ra
20% An-Nurash

The Tanza-Ra tribe:
10% unclassified
20% Sutadee
10% Tolmei
50% Tanza-Ra
10% An-Nurash

The Murkwood region:
25% unclassified
15% Sutadee
20% Tolmei
5% Tanza-Ra
35% An-Nurash

The Sutadee argonians are experts in guerilla warfare. Their figures are nimble and quick, their powerful legs suitable for great running speeds and leaping capabilites, augmented by their thick tails to aid in balance. The Sutadee utilize their modility in combat through ranged hit-and-run attack and retreat patterns. Their skin is more greenish than the unclassified argonians, with small frills along their extremities. Their skulls are similar to those of unclassified argonians, with a low cranial dome and pronounced snout. Facial tattoos are not uncommon amongst their veteran warriors. Sutadee are the primary argonian combatants and greatly responsible for keeping the Dres slave raiders at bay.

The Tolmei argonians resemble snakes as much as lizards, with a brightly colored and decorative scaled appearance without noticeable ears. Their bodies are small and frail, making them rather worthless in melee combat. Their fingers and tails are long and curved, with minimal claws. A high cranial dome with a short shout and a series of blue-black stripes down their spines easily distinguish these argonians from their brethren. Tolmei often follow Sutadee into combat, augmenting their abilities with alteration and mysticism spells.

Tanza-Ra argonians are rather crocodilian in appearance, with a thick leathery brown skin covering their heavy, muscular bodies. Their massive arms and general distaste for magic makes them perfect for senseless brutality, in which they have been known to excel. While their speed on land is rather slow, their digits are clawed and webbed, allowing them to reach great speeds in the water. A low-crowned skull, wideset jaw and straight rows of spikes makes these argonians hard to miss. It is common practice for Tanza-Ra to display the teeth from their largest kill as earrings to showcase their fighting prowess. These argonians are often guards or expeditiary forces; they guard the villages not from interior crime however, but from the threats of the marsh.

In stature, An-Nurash argonians differ only slightly from the unclassified argonians. Thier faces are more draconic, with high snouts and deep set eyes. They often have horned frills or brightly colored crests ranging from bright yellows to vibrant reds, which they augment with all forms of jewelry. Their combat abilities are mediocre as their true strength lies in their healing magics, so these argonians are more likely to be found at the center of a village than patrolling the swamp. They are the leaders of the tribes, the spiritual councelors and closest argonians to the Hist.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:00 pm

I could do some concept art if you want me to.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:03 pm

That's the general idea, I think I provided enough information on them for some reasonably good sketches. Let's see what you've got!

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:54 pm

How about this, for the beefy crocodilian ones?

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:21 am

That looks a bit like a warhammer figure, ha ha...

It's not what I was thinking, but the conept's right I guess. I know it's not yours, but what's with the beak?

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:52 am

thats because it is a warhammer figure.

I just threw that in as a suggestion for body type - the head would obviously look more argonian.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:11 pm

Here is my rendering of a Sutadee. I based it on a Velociraptor.

[url=http://img219.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img219&image=sutadee4xp.jpg][img]http://img219.exs.cx/img219/460/sutadee4xp.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:25 pm

I like the way the feet look, but you put so many fins on that poor thing that it looks like a fish!

I've decided to throw out some of my own sketches as well, just because I know you're all getting tired of me criticizing you. I'll have some up as soon as I get them done (even though I know Dexter's going to put us all to shame).

Here's a quick sketch I did of an An-Nurash shaman. I had originally intended him to have more jewelry, but didn't really feel like putting it in (sorry).

[img]http://img33.exs.cx/img33/8574/picture0080gw.jpg[/img]

Thane · Post by **Thane** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:22 pm

Let's see some more sketches-hopefully more detail in future pics, these sketches are very generic.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:22 pm

Here is my picture of a Tolmei Argonian casting a spell.

[url=http://img15.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img15&image=tolmei3yk.jpg][img]http://img15.exs.cx/img15/9530/tolmei3yk.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Tell me what you think.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:32 pm

I think you ought re-draw that one. Tolmey have no cranial decorations (horns, frills, etc), and they're most certainly not muscular!

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 6:32 pm

Oh! Thanks for pointing that out.

I drew this during school with no access to the description.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:10 am

I can't be bothered to look up the name for this guy's subspecies.
But I did name him Theodore Von Schprakenstein. You can call him Teddy V. for short.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/Dexter_Kong/Lizarddude.jpg[/img][/i]

Uldar · Post by **Uldar** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:21 am

And here is my take on the Sutadee...

[img]http://www.artwanted.com/images/large/17853_181911.jpg[/img]

Vyvara Araneae · Post by **Vyvara Araneae** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:37 am

To everyone who has submitted their works, I commend you on capturing the essence of this multi-faceted race. Admittedly, I know very little about Argonian/Black Marsh and am finding this thread with its wonderful visuals highly educational.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:12 am

Black Marsh should really be next - Skyrim is going to be soooo boring compared to the Argonian homeland... I am just glad Stumpy is putting all of the source material together for it.

Though I suppose we won't get a say in what province is done next.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:16 am

Uldar, that's perfect! Not only that, but beautiful as well! (Awards Uldar some form of artistic award)

Dexter, your Tanza-Ra looks rather mammalian. I suppose the bodily shape is correct (and I'm glad nobody has stuck a belly button on them - lizards don't have umbilical cords). The shape of the skull however is far too gorilla-esque for it to be an argonian. The shape of his nose is the part that particularly bothers me - it looks like something more likely to be found on a kitten than a bone-crushing lizard. (Goes and hides from the impending ass-kicking)

Thane · Post by **Thane** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:18 am

I hope they do Skyrim next. Let's vote

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:19 am

Vernon wrote:Black Marsh should really be next - Skyrim is going to be soooo boring compared to the Argonian homeland... I am just glad Stumpy is putting all of the source material together for it.

Totally agree...

Massalinie · Post by **Massalinie** » Thu Apr 07, 2005 10:34 am

If we are gonna have argonian subspecies,. perhaps there are other races we should do this to also.
For example I know that the Kajiits have multiple different kinds (i.e. Cathay-Raht)