Ebonheart City

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:44 pm

I know the thread was locked for a reason, but Starcrunch brought up a good point. Castle Ebonheart is on Vvardenfell. Ebonheart City is on the Mainland.

Instead of calling it Old Ebonheart, and implying that it's out of date, let's call it Ebonheart City. Ebonheart and Ebonheart City. It works out and it doesn't cause the confusion of being "old."

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:49 pm

It causes me no confusion. I actually like it better that way.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:53 pm

Actually, I think his is a good idea. Old in a city name is extremely unusual and makes little sense. As Ebonheart on Vvardenfell is little more than a castle with a trading company and a tavern, I think Ebonheart City suits well for the mainland part of the settlement.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:58 pm

I've got no problem with either.

DMKW · Post by **DMKW** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:13 pm

Vegor wrote:Actually, I think his is a good idea. Old in a city name is extremely unusual and makes little sense. As Ebonheart on Vvardenfell is little more than a castle with a trading company and a tavern, I think Ebonheart City suits well for the mainland part of the settlement.

so will the cells for the castle be renamed to "Ebonheart Castle"? instead of just Ebonheart as is currently?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:42 pm

I was thinking about that too. The thing is, I'm sure atleast one bmod somewhere referes to the "Ebonheart" cell(s). We can't change that, but if atleast one person has the players guide they can find all quests that refer Ebonheart Castle and fix them.

I'd like the change, myself.

Akfek · Post by **Akfek** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:20 am

My vote goes to Ebonheart City. Old Ebonheart makes it sound just a bit like, I don't know, a slum maybe. It just doesn't sound quite as natural as Ebonheart City.

Baalzebub · Post by **Baalzebub** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:29 am

yeah it should be called ebonheart city, when i hear old ebonheart i imagine it it being an city that has been destroyed ages ago and its just ruins left of it.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:54 am

I am sure you have your reasons for calling OE Ebonheart City, but I don't call my hometown Liverpool City and I don't call where I live Sydney City. I am sure you wouldn't call Chicago: Chicago City, unless you were differentiating it contextually from a town or borough named after it. So why not just Ebonheart? Also, I thought OE was named as such as more of a romantic notion than as a literal reference. ie Old Ebonheart because it is old. I am pretty sure that is purely my own interpretation though. :\

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:04 am

No but there's no Chicago Castle or Liverpool Caste out there. It would just be called Ebonheart if the castle in the original wouldn't be called that. If we call it Ebonheart, all city-dialogue that should be kept to Old Ebonheart will also be used in Ebonheart and we'd have to change the original dialogue to fix that. That won't happen and we won't change the name of the original Ebonheart because we don't change the original game.

If we would change the name of the original Ebonheart to Castle Ebonheart, Old Ebonheart would just be called Ebonheart. But we won't do that as it's against our policies.

groza528 · Post by **groza528** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:12 am

There are plenty of city names that *do* end with City, too. New York City, Kansas City, Carson City, Sioux City...
I vote Ebonheart City.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:13 am

Let me show you an example from Lineage 2. There's Dion Castle and Dion Castle Town, Aden Castle and Aden Castle Town etc.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:15 am

...and it all makes sense. Thanks, chaps. :)

Kasan Moor · Post by **Kasan Moor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:20 am

Huh? Vernon, you are a moderator?

Anyway, I never had a problem with OE, but Ebonheart City sounds cool too. I don't care wether it will be OE or EC, I like both.

kingfish · Post by **kingfish** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:50 am

imo "old ebonheart" sounds a lot better, see, the thing with calling a city "whatever city" is pretty much a custom in the US only [few exceptions possible]; and there are only a few such places in the "old" world. on the other hand, there are plenty of towns/cities called "old whatever" i know of and it's nothing unusual.
it may be just me, but "eb. city" sounds like something new, unfinished, recently planned, with no history - pretty much like most of US cities [no offence], and that sucks...

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:11 am

BTW about "old" issue. Let's look at the other side of the medal. We have the city of York and New York city. So "old" in the city name is not so out of place. But I like "Ebonheart City" or "City of Ebonheart" more. While we can call the cells like "City of Ebonheart" for example interior cells should be named "Ebonheart, something". IMO.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:13 am

Then there's the rocksolid lore: nowhere is there reference to an "Old Something" Imperial city. The capital of the Empire, however, is called Cyrodiil City. Um, it makes sense to me.

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:20 am

To be honest, Ebonheart City sounds too modern for me. Perhaps Old Ebonheart could be seperated into Ebonheart Castle(The castle on the peninsula, if I remember correctly), and Old Ebonheart Town, the whole thing collectively known as Old Ebonheart by the populace, simply in dialogue, of course.

The capital of the Empire, however, is called Cyrodiil City. Um, it makes sense to me.

Cyrodil City would be called that, if it is in lore, to differentiate between the city and the country.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:26 am

And Ebonheart City would be called that to differentiate between the city and the castle. We can't make "Ebonheart" Ebonheart Castle, so we need to do the next best thing.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:33 am

Ebonheart City just doesn't seem right. We should maybe brainstorm different ideas. Here are some ideas (that are probably crap).

Ebonheart District

Port Ebonheart

The City of Ebonheart

The District of Ebonheart

The Port of Ebonheart

The Town of Ebonheart

Come up with some more if you think it is worth it - these are just some first thoughts..

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:48 am

District has to go, as it would imply Ebonheart was one of the 6 districts of Morrowind.

Port Ebonheart is nice, but kind of clunky. The City/Port of Ebonheart is kind of formal to say, that's my only problem. And Ebonheart isn't a town.

As for my ideas

Grand Ebonheart
This is a nice idea to make it seem like this is the "true" Ebonheart.

Main Ebonheart

Ebonheart, Docks
Ebonheart, Castle
Ebonheart, City
These are all together because they seperate the mainland Ebonheart into multiple parts. That way the dialogue is seperated from Ebonheart Castle.

Kasan Moor · Post by **Kasan Moor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:56 am

Vernon, not responding anymore, eh?

And Stalker, love your new title. I hope we see some AoT soon?

Just kidding, I know that's Eraser's job and that he will give us a new version when he is ready.

I'd go with City of Ebonheart.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:58 am

Stalker wrote:While we can call the cells like "City of Ebonheart" for example interior cells should be named "Ebonheart, something". IMO.

I'm almost 100% percent sure that dialogue that goes for the cell Ebonheart, also goes for cells called "Ebonheart, Interior Name". It's a thing of Morrowind's dialogue that recognizes every cell with "Ebonheart," at the start as belonging to that city. So that's not a possibility either.

And I think you guys are making too much of this, the name is not all that important, is it? I don't really care about the name as long as it looks good.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:02 am

Vegor is right. This is a pretty silly subject to debate upon. I am going to keep the place named Old Ebonheart, because I don't feel like changing the cell names. Razorwing wanted to come here and get us all distracted and arguing, let's not give him the satisfaction of achieving that goal.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:07 am

Kasan Moor wrote:Vernon, not responding anymore, eh?

Huh? Did you send me a PM?

Kasan Moor · Post by **Kasan Moor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:08 am

Kasan Moor wrote:Huh? Vernon, you are a moderator?

Oh, nevermind, I see your new title. Congrats!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:37 am

I am now certain, however, that Old Ebonheart is not lore friendly. Old Ebonheart implies that there is a New Ebonheart somewhere, which there is not. There is an Ebonheart and an Ebonheart Castle. Because we cannot give Ebonheart Castle the proper name, we need to give Ebonheart a new one. Ebonheart City is far better than Old Ebonheart. The only places I've ever seen "Old" in are the areas that are done up to look like they did in the '20s or something just to the right of Downtown. (Old Sacremento comes to mind)

If the biggest and most important city in all of Tamriel is called Cyrodiil City, why can't a major city from the same culture be called Ebonheart City? It makes far more sense than "Old Ebonheart."

CommonsNat · Post by **CommonsNat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:08 pm

I'm confused, but wouldn't the Ebonheart on Vvarvenfell be the New Ebonheart? It would be too confusing to call one Ebonheart and one Ebonheart City.

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:07 pm

Dexter wrote:Vegor is right. This is a pretty silly subject to debate upon. I am going to keep the place named Old Ebonheart, because I don't feel like changing the cell names. Razorwing wanted to come here and get us all distracted and arguing, let's not give him the satisfaction of achieving that goal.

The way I see it, your subjects are just having a lively and creative discussion, trying to reach a common ground that everyone can feel alright about. What's the danger in discussing the name of the town you made up?

You are attributing me actions I have not committed. I don't want to reiterate the old discussion so you'll lock this topic too. What I did was that I communicated to your group a fact by one of Bethesda's Developers (where he says that Ebonheart was moved, not duplicated), because I know your team cares deeply about Lore, and that you might like to know that fact.

Where you see arguing, I see discussion. Where you see distraction, I see opinions different to yours. Where I see an exchange of ideas, you see a chance to steamroll others and impose your personal view on things. And when you paint up a picture of an evil outsider puppeteering your fellow modders, I see a man who villifies those who do not obey him and belittles his friends by suggesting they are susceptible to some kind of Jedi mind trick from me. If your friends feel this subject is worthy of discussion, believe me, that desire for freedom stems from them.

Kasan Moor · Post by **Kasan Moor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:13 pm

Razorwing... I know that name... Where are you from? ESF? Silgrad Tower?

Ah, nevermind, I'll just shut up.

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:16 pm

Kasan Moor wrote:Razorwing... I know that name... Where are you from? ESF? Silgrad Tower?

Ah, nevermind, I'll just shut up.

I'm from Sweden, actually

j/k. I'm mostly active in Silgrad Tower, that's correct, but I spend a lot of time on elderscrolls.com as well.

Majra · Post by **Majra** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:32 pm

Razorwing, you may be correct indeed, however heres the thing

Although the official lore is usually the best thing to base things on, a lot of the time it conflicts itself. We at TR know these issues will come up, that is why we dont solely create tamriel only with their lore, we fill in the gaps. This is such a case. If you look at other city names, a lot of them were just wrong as far as ES went, I mean, imperial names for dunmer cities doesnt even make sense with the exception of the imperial presence in a fraction of these places, therefore we took it on ourselves to fix many names for more logically purposes.

The fact that you made so many threads about this, and continued to hark on it has obviously bothered dex more than the actual name of the city itself. He even admitted if the city name needed to be changed hed be fine with it, but your continued debating on such things has obviously been the problem. I suggest you understand that a debate doesnt mean you keep cramming your opinion down someones throat until they submit. Welcome to TR, Im sorry if you are having a poor introduction to us, but you should learn to be more cooperative.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:40 pm

Why don't we just call it ebonheart and act as if its the same city? New York and other large cities span bodies of water. No map innacuracy problem, no poor name problems and following old and new lore at the same time.

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:45 pm

Majra wrote:Razorwing, you may be correct indeed, however heres the thing

Although the official lore is usually the best thing to base things on, a lot of the time it conflicts itself. We at TR know these issues will come up, that is why we dont solely create tamriel only with their lore, we fill in the gaps. This is such a case. If you look at other city names, a lot of them were just wrong as far as ES went, I mean, imperial names for dunmer cities doesnt even make sense with the exception of the imperial presence in a fraction of these places, therefore we took it on ourselves to fix many names for more logically purposes.

The fact that you made so many threads about this, and continued to hark on it has obviously bothered dex more than the actual name of the city itself. He even admitted if the city name needed to be changed hed be fine with it, but your continued debating on such things has obviously been the problem. I suggest you understand that a debate doesnt mean you keep cramming your opinion down someones throat until they submit. Welcome to TR, Im sorry if you are having a poor introduction to us, but you should learn to be more cooperative.

I respect your views, Majra, and I think you're correct in much of what you say. Lore changes over time, and we all now the Devs like to poke fun at lore sometimes - sometimes you just have to ignore them, like when they turn monsters into merchants. But I feel when it comes to real lore, revised lore takes precedence over old lore. Cyrodiil used to be mainly a jungle province, now it's mainly temperate. That's just a general opinion I have.

When it comes to town names I must differ with you though, because I always chalked it up to some towns simply being called one thing by the Imperials and one thing by the Dunmer, and that we might not always be told both town names. I believe there are many precedents in our own world where conquerors or dictators have renamed towns - IIRC, there's a russian city that's been known as Leningrad, Stalingrad, and after communism it's now S:t Petersburg.

I posted one thread about the situation around Old Ebonheart and made one or two follow-up remarks, and that was it. I can't say I think I harked on about it. If Dexter hadn't mentioned my name in this thread and said things that I don't believe were true, I would not have joined this current discussion. I also did not think he was right in basically saying: this is silly, stop talking, we will do it my way, end of discussion. I don't think that creates a positive atmosphere. We're just trying to enjoy our hobby, right?

kingfish · Post by **kingfish** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:05 pm

Razorwing wrote:...your *own* members discussing something in your *own* mod!...

actually, the main discussion on this topic is by someone that strongly resembles an ex-member of both tr&st [you know him, nick started with "B"], so i wouldn't worry much...

Razorwing wrote:...That, I have an opinion about. And I would hope a calm discussion can be held and critisizm be made, if one sees the need, without discussions being locked or members banned. That is not a healthy atmosphere, I think.

hmm, yet another st member worrying about atmosphere here in tr. come on, stop this already, let's just have fun modding [us, tr] and waiting for oblivion [you, st].

-sorry about the last comment, i just had to...

Vyvara Araneae · Post by **Vyvara Araneae** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:11 pm

Hello there, everyone.

I would like to encourage returning discussion to the original subject (Ebonheart) so members may continue to brainstorm.

I'm not trying to be a buzzkill here, but it is obvious there are some personal matters intruding on this discussion that I feel would be best left to a private level.

*passes out cookies and promptly exists*

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:26 pm

kingfish wrote:
Razorwing wrote:...your *own* members discussing something in your *own* mod!...
actually, the main discussion on this topic is by someone that strongly resembles an ex-member of both tr&st [you know him, nick started with "B"], so i wouldn't worry much...

Razorwing wrote:...That, I have an opinion about. And I would hope a calm discussion can be held and critisizm be made, if one sees the need, without discussions being locked or members banned. That is not a healthy atmosphere, I think.
hmm, yet another st member worrying about atmosphere here in tr. come on, stop this already, let's just have fun modding [us, tr] and waiting for oblivion [you, st].

-sorry about the last comment, i just had to...

First I'd like to apologize for editing my reply to Majra. I wrote what you quoted, then deleted it and started over. It wasn't very eloquent.

Hmm, I can't think of any modder I know who's screen name starts with B. I'm sorry if I offended that person by not recalling it.

I am concerned about the atmosphere in TR, as I'm concerned with the atmoshpere on the official forum, it just depends on what scale is used. You don't have to apologize by the way - personally, I'm having loads of fun waiting for Oblivion; we'll never get this chance again to prepare for Oblivion, and getting a head start means we will already have travelled some distance when the game is out. Instead of having certain discussions when we'd rather be in the Construction Set, we're having them now. Sounds like a good plan to me, and I'm content with thinking that without talking down your decision to stick with Morrowind.

But, now I will respectfully stop posting in this thread, unless I'm asked a question or someone writes about me or Silgrad Tower. Sorry Vyvara Araneae, it's easy to get carried away

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:46 pm

Of course, it is really useful to start preparing for Oblivion if there really is nothing we actually know about the game, other than a lot of promotive talks from devs and a few cheesy atricles in gaming magazines. Face it, you can't prepare for something you don't know jack shit about. All we know is that it will be very similar to Morrowind in it's basics, meaning that IF Tamriel Rebuilt will decide to continue with the Oblivion engine, the transition will be able to go smoothly.

I have to agree with Dexter on this subject, if you want to prepare for Oblivion, go ahead and wait. Read your news/rumours about the game every day and wait some more. Read some forums and post some suggestions on how the game should be and wait some more. But we are NOT working on anything for Oblivion, we are working on a mod for Morrowind. That has not changed at all yet and if you think we shouldn't, or if you think you're 'one step ahead' because you think about Oblivion, that's your decision. Just don't try to force it on us.

Now I also must apologize to Vyvara Araneae and everyone else for going off-topic, this I had to say.

CommonsNat · Post by **CommonsNat** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:53 pm

Vegor wrote:this I had to say.

No, actually you didn't. Show some self-restraint.

Sorry, just saying this before we start going off-topic again.

Edit: This I agree with.

Eraser wrote:Why don't we just call it ebonheart and act as if its the same city? New York and other large cities span bodies of water. No map innacuracy problem, no poor name problems and following old and new lore at the same time.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:57 pm

We can't do that, editing dialogue then will have to involve changing the dialogue of existing Vvardenfell as well. If it was that easy, this whole thread would not exist.

And please don't tell me to show self-restraint. I've been tempted too many times to insult people but I never do. This just HAD to be said and I've kept it rather civil.