Seeing the forest for the trees

FoxTamer · Post by **FoxTamer** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:38 pm

I'm trying to make a very forested area in 3-6. Does anyone know if there is a practical limit to how many trees you can stuff in an area?

I've never seen a very thick forest in-game, either in Bethesda's official games or any mod. Is there any reason not to make a thick forest, dense with trees?

When I tried to do this in the Editor (build a very thick forest) the render window seemed to slow down a lot, but then it would recover and speed up.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:02 pm

There aren't think forests in game because they slow down performance. There shouldn't be any thick forests in morrowind, it is supposed to be a very dry hostile environment not suitable for lush forests.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:14 pm

look at the forest near silgrad that seems thick to me.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:18 pm

Thats a little too thick

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:09 pm

those are good reasons but the best, well to me, is because it takes a much longer time to create a dense forest than a thinner forest

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:29 pm

Wererat, modding simply takes time if the result is to be worth looking at. I see no need to hush things here; neither MEmodd nor any other higher-profile mod is to be out soon, and even if, this is no race for speed, but for quality!

Besides, a bit of forest can't hurt (theoretically), maybe we can try and find out what the maximum in trees bearable for average performance PC is?

FoxTamer · Post by **FoxTamer** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:37 pm

I kind of think along the same lines as Hermit here. I'm trying to make an attractive and interesting Exterior. Besides, I'm working on 3-6, and accoring to the maps, 3-6 is dominated by what looks like a very striking geographical feature...a wide, green, forested valley.

To just place a few clumps of trees in the grass wouldn't differentiate this distinct area from any other. But if the forest slows me up that much, I may have no choice.

I have a very low-end machine....barely enough RAM and processor speed to run Morrowind (900 mghz processor, 128 MB RAM). So I'm a good example of a low-end system running Morrowind. I can test out my forest and see how it runs in game.

Somewhere I read how many "faces" in a cell starts to slow down the performance too much. Now I can't find that reference again. Anyone know?

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:51 pm

Look uop the tech section, I think there's a console commands thread there. you can type something in the console and have your framerate shown in the lower right corner of the screen when playing.

Dakkan · Post by **Dakkan** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:10 pm

I got 2.53 ghz, is that low end?

lol

Really, I think if u do it right, you can just make it look thick, w/o it acually being that thick.

example=velnayia

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:41 pm

Err ... Velnaya? Hunh? What mod is that? Could someone enlighten me please?

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:51 pm

i got a crappy system (ME) and a crappy internet connection. forest i dont mess with if its a private project but for claims i take my time

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:54 pm

dakkans right. you can make a forest look thick without actually using alot of trees. just layer trees and dont forget to place rocks (they take up empty 'ugly' space also)

Veet · Post by **Veet** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 6:14 am

The main thing keeping a very dense forest from being done is the poly count on the existing tree models....I have seen shots of some very low poly models that can make a good showing of a dense forest but have yet to get my hands on them....Basicaly if you want to make a dense forest and make it worth while to play around in there is going to have to be new models made for trees...

Also I think dense forested areas are going to be more acceptable in Argonia and Valenwood. Probably a little in Cyrodiil Somerset and southern Elsewyr as well. Morrowind just isn't a good place to put a dense forest....at least not a live one....

Dakkan · Post by **Dakkan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:28 pm

Velayia is a mod that adds a continent west of vvarvendell, and the entire thing is one great forest. Someone made a thread here about "how to make dense forests" there is a link in there, but the velayia mod...sucked... its just that the forest was awsome.

[url]http://tr.silgrad.com/thread.php?threadid=386&boardid=88&styleid=1[/url]

here it is

FoxTamer · Post by **FoxTamer** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:43 pm

Maybe someday someone could invent a "forest canopy" mesh or object, that we just kind of lay over the existing trees, creating a dense foresty feel, yet allowing weather effects to come through.

I'd do it myself, if I had modeling software. Maybe for Christmas...

Dakkan · Post by **Dakkan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:49 pm

Thats what velayia basicly does.

Kothloth · Post by **Kothloth** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:14 pm

A forest you say? A horrible area for me to go through I say. Noirgrim's exellent 3-12 claim had a swamp with a somewhat dense placement of trees. The experience I got from it wasn't exactly *smooth*. (Average, I had fps 10 I think. Usually lies around 25

)

This has a much greater impact then one thinks. *Especially* trees with alpha-mapping (can see through leaves etc.) gives the cpu a hard time. The dense forest is Silgrad did slow down the performance. And it used *dead* trees, with no alpha-mapping

Dakkan · Post by **Dakkan** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:31 pm

Odd, i had little trouble in noir's forest.

But, I really think we should come up with a way to have a super dense forest sooner or later, becuase we WILL need it.Meby lower the poly count. I think all those who never tried velayia should go and do so now.

(when u get to the island, if u find a little wood elf in the middle of a forest, DON'T DRINK HIS POTION!)

It has a canopy so thick, u caint see through it.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:30 pm

There are tons of very good quality trees out there with lower polycount than bethesda's. And there are variations of those trees. A dense unique forest is very possible.

The forest in Velayia is poorly made, it has low quality models for trees, and the forest has nothing more than trees, for the most part it has no rocks, no flowers, no plants, nothing. Just poor quality trees which in some places are perfectly aligned....

With that said, the forest in Velayia is pretty atmospheric, I loved it. I can only imagine what can be done with the aforementioned models and the experience some of our people have on landscaping...

Kothloth · Post by **Kothloth** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:28 pm

Indeed, low-poly trees might do the trick

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:11 pm

where can i find that forest?

RaJevir · Post by **RaJevir** » Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:14 pm

For the most part this is a moot point. We will have very few dense forests until we get past skyrim. That gives us at least 5 years to upgrade our systems to handle them. I imagine that thick forests even with high poly count trees will be little problem for our computers 5 years from now.

Garland · Post by **Garland** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:24 pm

That gives us at least 5 years to upgrade our systems to handle them.

NO! Now you've cursed us.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:58 pm

We should see who is interested in a Forests of Tamriel Project.

The team could try to make the most efficient forest possible... or atleast the most efficient forest illusion possible

They could also develop new low poly tree models.. either by creating their own or modifying existing ones.

The forests are not really a concern for morrowind but they would be nice for skyrim.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:51 pm

Odd, the big map we use shows quite a lot of forest in the Northwestern part of Morrowind (Group Map 5). Is this just supposed to be scattered clumps of trees?

And it BETTER not take 5 years for us to get done with Skyrim. By then Oblivion will be old news and this whole project could be a moot point.

Kothloth · Post by **Kothloth** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 8:33 pm

Moork's map is just a guideline. Don't pay any greater attention to it's detail like trees, since this can't be decided by such an overview map. It merely states that this area might hold a lot of flora. Or something

Sniper4 · Post by **Sniper4** » Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:42 am

I have a friend from school who says he might one day join TR. He said one of the big things he wants to do is make more real-life based trees and some forests....guess this will disappoint him

.