Map 2 Thieves Guild Discussion

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:27 am

This is to discuss questline for Thieves Guild at map 2 in Darconis.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:54 am

Isn't there a Thieves Guild in Neommaeor / Necrom? I remember some mention on it because there were ideas circulating that the Mages Guild there is interested in necromancy, and they are employing the Thieves Guild to do a lot of their dirty work.

Anyway, some ideas:

- I can't help but see Kemel Ze as a source for some good TG quests. These quests would probably conflict with Mages Guild, Telvanni, or even some sort of Archaeology Guild, quests which might be good, forcing the PC to choose their loyalties. Some quests might include stealing specific Dwemer artifacts for a private collector; stealing information on the ruins such as plans and excavation reports; bribing guards, guides and couriers; and sabotaging excavation work in some manner.

- Due to the location of Darconis, and Map 2 in general, I can't help think that the Thieves Guild here would be employed by certain Telvanni to help smuggle certain things (such as ebony, skooma, moon sugar, alcoholic beverages, Dwemer artifacts, etc.) from Map 3 and 4 to certain towers. Such quests would probably need to go into Map 1 though. I don't reckon that anywhere in Map 2 (apart from Necrom) would be on the receiving end of smuggling operations because to the south and north are more lucrative markets.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:05 pm

Wouldn't it be better to wait for a Map 2 download with interiors so we know exactly where all of the guilds even are?

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:10 pm

If you can read the first line in this thread, it says in Darconis. Thieves Guild base is in Darconis and the quests will go from there. This is a thread for brainstorming and forming of ideas, once they are concrete you can start looking for exact locations. For now, it should be enough to say that the main base is in Darconis.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:12 pm

I think TG quests should involve some shrines\holy places\catacombs of Necrom.

Nairb · Post by **Nairb** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:28 pm

There should be a really involving questg near the end too. Like, lets say steal expensive thing x from heavily guarded area. Or try to sneak a prisioner out of jail.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:36 pm

Note that there will be a Knight Brother (sort of like a regional administrator for the Legion) at Darconis, so there could be a quest like stealing part of his armor which is very rare (if not very good) for someone who wants to show off a set of Imperial Officer's armor.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:21 pm

He will probably be wearing the armor, which makes stealing it from him very, very hard. There is a clever way that involves magic and there's murdering him where he stands.

-Starcrunch

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:25 pm

Well we could think up a way of getting him to remove his armor so you can steal it. Like letting a woman deceive him and make him undress and then allowing you to steal it. This will be very hard to create though as we don't want to make it too explicit. But getting him to remove his armor is some way so you can steal it seems like an interesting quest to me.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:30 pm

This man is a no-nonsense soldier type so he probably wouldnt be too far from his armor at any time. At the same time you cant kill him or else the legion will have your ass. So that would make a good quest. It could go something like you forge letters both for him and from him to organise a meeting with somebody who is of a high enough rank to demand that he doesnt wear his armor, like the Dutchess or something. Then when they meet you have about 3 minutes to get in and out before they work out that someone (ie you) engineered this.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:30 pm

PC finds the woman and gives her a potion of Paralysis. Then she convinces the general to take off his armor, the whole seduction bit (he could even have a soft spot for women who aren't his wife) then before he removes his clothes the woman offers him some wine (tainted with the paralysis potion). The PC takes the armor then woman gives him a talking to. You could even make the person who hires the TG the general's wife. If the PC is female perhaps they could even play the role of the woman (a brief sex dependent variation in the quest).

-Starcrunch

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:40 pm

I doubt this character would fall to that kind of trick. Maybe we could do a double-quest where first you are told to try this method with the woman and then when that fails you have to do the bit with the invitation.

Starcrunch · Post by **Starcrunch** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:44 pm

Why? Men in power often have a soft spot for women, sometimes they don't even need to be attractive (think Bill Clinton). This guy is a general not a saint.

-Starcrunch

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:48 pm

Howabout trading in fake relics or miracle cures to gullible pilgrims to Necrom.
This would be pretty funny, I think.

Or maybe stealing some noble's ashes and ransoming them back to his family.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:51 pm

Hes not a general per-se, and this is a character i have been thinking up in my head since I started formulating the Knights. He is an Imperial Authority figure in an area controlled by the Telvanni, and thus probably a bit of a target. He is also a hardened veteran. Not only has he trained himself to be wary of attempts at him he is not stupid enough to drink something given to him by a stranger. We could have an insider, but that would present its own problems. I think the best way to do this would be to have it as a two stage quest, because not only do the two good ideas get used but also we have a very long and involving quest. Also bear in mind that to write the letters and make them look authentic you would need a book of imperial writing paper (the mechanic by which certain things are operated in the Knights) and getting that would be a task in itself.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:13 am

Well, it's obvious that religion is going to be one of the big issues on Map 2 ( Necrom being the Dunmeri Mecca and all ), and the Theives' Guild got the short end of the stick with inter-guild conflict, I'm pretty sure that they're quests are entirely intra-guild on Map 1. What if they were serving the Imperial Cult which was trying to "save" the Dunmer. The Cult would have to have a very blinded leader who would do immoral things to push his religion onto others.

Ofcourse, that should wait for an Imperial Cult thread.

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:57 am

Sorry guys havent been around that much, just moved to Georgia... working... im a sandwich artist for Subway lol, yea i know. But I was just on here real quick checking in.

Well on topic... I will always push for Theives Guild missions that involve speechcraft. Like conartist type missions, or just gaining favor with locals and stuff... they can be alot broader in goals but its nice to be the kind of thief that can get around with nothing but a silver tongue. Information, is very much a commodity that the Guild could deal in, especially with the tensions between the Imperials and the Telvanni...
the guild can work both sides, but maintianing a game face will be criticle... could be interesting.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:11 am

Here we have some big discussion. Well I would like to suggest just a general frame of this quest:

I imagine TG quest as a work on some huge and very professional "project" aka Ocean's eleven. This may include finding, persuading and organizing several thievery experts (sneak, security, speechcraft, acrobatics...), preparing for the project (seducing and blackmailing investigative IL officer, stealing necessary item from Kemel-Ze, infiltrating Necrom ordinators...) which would finish in one final and difficult action.
How about looting some of major Necrom tombs? Too ambitious? With 10 quests of preparations and one special action in the end...

What do you think?

Silvone Elestahr · Post by **Silvone Elestahr** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:19 am

Here is my attempt to create a basic outline for TG quests that will allow them a grab at their ultimate goal, the tombs of Necrom, with the blame falling on the imperials/telvanni. This is a very shaky outline; I'm just hoping to form something solid to work off of. I hope the whole thing isn't too ambitous for the TG...

Quests 1: Retrieve x item from Kemel-Ze

Quest 2: Convince archeologists to hire TG contact.

Quest 3: TG contact informs TG of discovery; you are sent to steal it from the archeologists. The discovery is not of Dwemer origin, though. It belongs to the Telvanni, and you need to get it before they return it. The TG has plans for it.

Quest 4: The TG gives the Imp Leg a bit of information concerning the Mages GuildÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s desires to loot the tombs of Necrom. Normally, the Imperial Legion could deal with the MG themselvese, but the TG explains that the MG is heavily backed by the Telvanni, in several locations, and the Imperials would be hard pressed to provide evidence or hold back the Mages Guild forcefully. The Imperial contact thanks you for the information, and promises to relate it to higher authority.

Quest 5: The TG receives news from the Telvanni. They have not delivered (x), and the Telvanni are growing impatient. You are sent to ask for more time. You give the contact an encrypted letter, which you are not allowed (or able) to read. This letter describes the Imperials desires to loot tombs of Necrom while pushing all the blame onto the telvanni and the Mages Guild. Obviously, the letter is full of fake info, but finishes a vital part of the TGÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s plan.

After a bit more brainstorming, I hope to find a way to link the stolen armor (future TG mission), and the Telvanni object (quest 3), so that the blame falls equally on the Telvanni and Imperials, and the TG gets away clean. In the end, the Necrom tombs are robbed, the evidence leads toward the Imperials. The Imperials have evidence that leads toward the telvanni, but Necrom would never side with the ImpÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s against the telvanni, even though they might not fully trust the Telvanni.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:36 am

About speechcraft. Yes, I think it's a really good idea to make one quest consist only of complex dialogues. Like you're sent to retreive some information abou son of Duke of Darconis (for example). So you need to:
a) sneak into the palace
b) find the informant
c) talk the hell outta him
d) sneak out

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:59 am

@Stalker: There is no Duke in Darconis. There is supposed to be an Imperial governor though.

I don't think the TG could get the Telvanni in trouble, nor would there be a link between the Telvanni and MG. They hate each other too much. So what I reckon might be nice is if the TG works for the MG, but then royally screws them at the end. An unforseen conflict if there ever is one...

Here's more brainstorming on a TG questline:

Quest 1: Steal something from a Darconis shop, just to prove you are a thief. Little quest, little reward.

Quest 2: Deliver a bribe to an Imperial guard who stumbled on to some TG plans. Something which relies on Speechcraft. If the PC fails badly at this, they could be thrown in jail or something.

Quest 3: Convince Kemel Ze archeologists to hire TG contact. A very speechcrafty one.

Quest 4: Go to a TG smugglers cave, pick up a shipment of raw ebony (10 pieces) and deliver it to a contact in Neommaeor. PC has three days to do this quest before they fail. After 5 days, if the PC has still not given the raw ebony to the contact, they are expelled from the TG. This quest is to add some time for the archaeologists to find something and have the TG contact relay info on it.

Quest 5: TG contact informs TG of discovery; you are sent to steal it from the archeologists. The discovery is not of Dwemer origin, though. It belongs to the Telvanni, and you need to get it before they return it. The TG has plans for it.

Quest 6: Quest must be completed by 2am. Break into the Darconis Mages Guild and steal a coded letter from the guild steward stored in the Mages Guild. PC then has to take the letter to the TG, give it to someone to make a forgery, and then have to place the forgery back where they got the real letter. They must wait until the Guild Steward leaves at 11pm (giving 3 hours to complete the quest), and cannot be seen by any members of the MG at all during the quest. A tough one, explaining to the PC where they got the info on MG activities.

Quest 7: The TG gives the Imp Leg a bit of information concerning the Mages GuildÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s desires to loot the tombs of Necrom. Normally, the Imperial Legion could deal with the MG themselvese, but the TG explains that the MG is heavily backed by rich, well-connected Imperial sponsors, and the Imperials would be hard pressed to provide evidence or hold back the Mages Guild forcefully. The Imperial contact thanks you for the information, and promises to relate it to higher authority.

Quest 8: The TG receives news from the Telvanni. They have not delivered (x), and the Telvanni are growing impatient. You are sent to ask for more time. You give the contact an encrypted letter, which you are not allowed (or able) to read. This letter describes the Imperials desires to loot tombs of Necrom while pushing all the blame onto the telvanni and the Mages Guild. Obviously, the letter is full of fake info, but finishes a vital part of the TGÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s plan.

I am beginning to reckon there should be a second TG in Neommaeor. This above line would be better in Neommaeor, whilst a second quest line would work well in Darconis, in which the PC must steal armour and help smugglers and so forth.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:04 am

We could use the uniform part as a disguise. This way the blame would fall upon the Knight, but that would conflict with the Imperial Knights somewhat. Maybe we try to implicate the son fo the Duke. You have to steal the armor first (by the aforementioned method) and then trick the Knight into thinking the son is a bad'un. Whereas he wouldnt fall for a blatent trick, his innate paranoia would mean he would implicate the son in any untoward dealings given the evidence. So to summarise...

1) Use the woman and fail to steal the armor
2) Set up the fake meeting and steal the armor
3) Set up various things which will make the Knight suspicious of the Duke's son
4) Loot the tombs
5) Plant the armor where it looks hidden but would be found (eg in a basket somewhere in the Palace) with some evidence of the Son (like scented with his cologne or one of his hairs caught in a clasp)

The Duke's son goes down for theft and impersonation of an officer and you get away scot free, allowing all questlines to remain untouched.

fanfas · Post by **fanfas** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:09 pm

Theo wrote:Here we have some big discussion. Well I would like to suggest just a general frame of this quest:

I imagine TG quest as a work on some huge and very professional "project" aka Ocean's eleven. This may include finding, persuading and organizing several thievery experts (sneak, security, speechcraft, acrobatics...), preparing for the project (seducing and blackmailing investigative IL officer, stealing necessary item from Kemel-Ze, infiltrating Necrom ordinators...) which would finish in one final and difficult action.
How about looting some of major Necrom tombs? Too ambitious? With 10 quests of preparations and one special action in the end...

What do you think?

I would like to see this ideia implemented, its kind of a mini main quest and makes all quests have a purpose.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:48 pm

I have one quest idea:
One collector somehow aquired one of the most rare books - Black Book of House Dagoth in good condition. It was probably preserved by the magic. Another collector wants you to aquire it by any means necessary which do not involve killing people.
If PC is male he can seduce the maid and make her to bring the book to you (it is quite a long process though).
Or you can just steal it the regular way.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:03 pm

Here's a point: The IAS has no need of the Theives Guild. It's their job to loot Kemel-Ze, why would they hire theives?

Silvone Elestahr · Post by **Silvone Elestahr** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:09 pm

Because they don't know he belongs to the TG. You are supposed to convince them he's an honest man interested in the Dwemer and looking for work.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:13 pm

Okay, then the IAS does work that isn't Theives' Guildy. It's hard manual labor for anyone but the archeologist, if you've read The Ruins of Kemel-Ze. It's not "run in and grab the artifact."

Silvone Elestahr · Post by **Silvone Elestahr** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:04 pm

Hes only there as a contact...a spy, if you will. He does not touch anything. He will alert the TG if they come across anything of interest, and the TG will work out a way to steal it. Thus why, in my outline, you must go retrieve the item, he does not bring it to you.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:07 pm

A better way to do this would be to say 'we have a man on the labouring team working in Kemel-Ze, just in case they actually find anything of interest. Apparently one of the archeologists let slip that there would be (x item) in (x place). I want you to get in their tonight and take it before the archeologists can get to it.'

Silvone Elestahr · Post by **Silvone Elestahr** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 8:10 pm

Thats what I had in mind

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:37 pm

Also (though that's not necessarily specific to this map), if you've some of the Bal Molagmer quests for Jim Stacey, there should other guild leaders wanting to imitate Jim's example and offer you Bal Molagmer-type quests.

The "stealing the general's armor" quest could easily be one, assuming said general committed some wrong against someone, depriving him of his ceremonial cuirass and offering it to the wronged party would be very Bal Molagmer-ish.

I'll also ditto Ludovic's idea. It would be very funny to have a "fundraising"-type mission (as the ones for the Imperial Cult in Vvardenfell) : you're given a number (say, 10) of false relics and you must persuade people into buying them to you. The higher their disposition, the higher they buy them, you'd need to get at least 75 before they buy it, however. (The related dialogue option should be restricted to pilgrim-class NPC in the Necrom cell.)

To succeed on the quest, you need to bring back 1000 drakes to the Thieves' Guild. As in the fundraising quests, you may claim to have brought back even more money (twice, or thrice). You may also claim you've been only half-successful. As reward, you're given back 10% of the money you brought, in addition to some recompense item (like an amulet with a constant effect +1 on Speechcraft, something interesting but weak). The recompense item could depend on how much you gave: nothing for 500, the +1 amulet for 1000, a +2 version of the amulet for 2000, and a +3 version for 3000.

Finally, a Telvanni necromancer may ask the thieves' guild to bring him somebody's ashes, skull, or even bonemeal (tr_ingred_bonemeal_unique) from one, or more, deceased for his foul experiments.

And now, drifting just a tiny bit off-topic: it would be funny to have tie-in quests from the other factions. If you're in the Legion, you could have for quest to find back the stolen armor. The temple may offer a mission in which you'd have to uncover and kill or report to the authorities a con-artist that sells false relics. The Mages' Guild could ask you to find proofs that the Telvanni is a necromancer and a grave-robber and denounce him to the Ordinators, thus eliminating a rival and an enemy.

If you don't steal the armor or provide the Telvanni with the corpse remains, the follow-up quest isn't available.

Dr.Evil · Post by **Dr.Evil** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:41 am

It would be nice if there was the task to elimnate a shop keepers competitor by framing him for some recent thefts. So you first steal things, accuse the competitor in front of the invetigating officer and place the things in his chest. Your succes depends on the tactic you use to make the officer believe he's guilty (if you mess up, it will be yourself spending a few days in jail) and the appropriate order of your actions.
It would be great if in general there were some more sabotage missions and not only more or less simple thefts.

Animunculi · Post by **Animunculi** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:57 pm

Stalker wrote:I have one quest idea:
One collector somehow aquired one of the most rare books - Black Book of House Dagoth in good condition. It was probably preserved by the magic. Another collector wants you to aquire it by any means necessary which do not involve killing people.
If PC is male he can seduce the maid and make her to bring the book to you (it is quite a long process though).
Or you can just steal it the regular way.

It would be nice if the player would be able to let someone make a copy of this book(for a price, of course) for the players personal use. Then you could branch this quest further- if the player gives the copied book to the collector, he(collector) might know it is fake and would attack or order an attack against the player. If the player gives him(collector) the real book, he is happy and the quest is finished.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:02 pm

nah, I think it should be unique but the player can always steal it again if he wants it himself

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:23 am

I was doing some brainstorming for quest ideas, when out of the blue I thought of a Theives' Guild quest. This is a very early draft of the quest idea; I just wanted to run the idea by you guys here before I developed it more in-depth. I have posted this quest under as an independant thread, that can be found here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=13344&highlight=
Here it is:
The quest is called "The Double-Cross." The player is instructed to steal a very valuable ruby, perhaps from a private collector or gem seller. When the player returns to the quest giver with the ruby, he is given a fake ruby to replace with the one he stole (to cover the theif's tracks). When the player returns to the location of the robbery to replace the ruby, a guard is there. If he is caught, he can pay the ridiculous value of the ruby (sparking one journal entry), try to avoid capture (sparking a different journal entry), or go to jail (sparking a different journal entry). If he is not caught and does not place the fake (leaves the building without placing it), it sparks a journal entry. If he is not caught and plants it, it sparks a journal entry. Each journal entry is tailored to the circumstances, but they all ask: how did the guard know? Have I been set-up? The player must than return to the ThievesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ Guild and discern if he was set-up, and if so by who(FYI, the player was set up). When the player discovers who it is, he can either turn him over to the guild (for betraying a fellow thief) for a reward (perhaps a speech-craft skill boost or a rank), or can keep it a secret in return for the real gem, or can kill the thief and take the real gem. Each one of the three options sparks a concluding journal entry.
Anyway, that is my idea! I have another quest idea I might post soon, that is less linear and with just as many options, but it is a misc. map 2 quest. Anyhoo, I would really appreciate feedback! Thx ya'll
PS
I was just thinking: the item that is stolen does not need to be a ruby. It could be any item, perhaps a religious artifact or expensive potion. The item could be tailored to the larger Theives' Guild quest line, to create a sense of coherence and better intigrate the quest in the questline.
Stalker, I was reading your quest idea about the Black Book of House Dagoth, and began toying with the idea of having the Black Book of House Dagoth as the item central to the Double-Cross quest idea I recently generated. A Black Book of House Dagoth would be a valuable item, especially to a collector invested in aquiring similar artifacts, and the dissapearance of such a book would be rather noticable. This provides ample motive for the theives' guild member to betray his comrade: the theif will likely have a considerable bounty on his head, a problem that the betrayer could avoid by setting up the PC. Even if the PC could tell the Imperial Guard about what really happened, who is going to beleive a story about a random theives' guild member that has already fled Darconis (and perhaps even Morrowind). To add to inplausability of the story, the quest giver (betrayer) could be wearing shrouded clothes, and have a name like "shrouded theif," and approach the PC outside the theives' guild, so no one actually sees him.
I could even go through some Morrowind history and look for presedance of a similar powerful book, to give the quest a tie to Morrowind lore. This quest would involve sneaking, lockpicking, speechcraft (to interrogate theives' guild members and learn the identity of the "shrouded theif," and maybe even fighting if the PC resists arrest upon being discovered.
I am getting very excited about this idea! I would love to know your thoughts on the matter, Stalker. And of course all other readers' comments are welcome as always

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:49 am

Internet glitch, accidental post. Didn't realize until I posted again. New to forums =P

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 1:45 am

Guess what? the ideas keep on flowing!! I was looking over other ideas for Darconis TG questlines, considered my own ideas, and wrote this. This is in the very early stages, and if it is well received withh undoubtedly undergo many revisions. It looks a little short to me. As always, I openly welcome all comments and opinions. Enjoy!

This quest line revolves around the planning and execution of an attempt to steal a powerful religious artifact from the vaults of Darconis. The player must gather information on the item, the layout of the vaults, recruit specialists, and than finally execute the plan.
The twist is that the TG is working for both the Telvanni and the MG. The MG initially comes to the TG to steal an artifact that they can use against the Telvanni. The TG agrees. After stealing the artifact, TG operatives pose as non-TG theives and inform the Telvanni of the MG plans. Telvanni than hires the TG (beleiving them to be non-TG theives) to steal the artifact from the MG.

Quests 1 to 4: The player performs routine TG duties and rises in rank in the TG. Eventually, he will have proven himself to be worthy of a highly sensitive mission directed by the Darconis TG head himself.

Quest 5: The quest giver is considering the player for creating and executing a plan to steal the powerful artifact from the Vaults, but first requires some proof of the playerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s prowess as a thief. Still in the dark about the grander designs of the Darconis TheivesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ Guild, the player is sent on a difficult mission to steal some item.

Quest 6: The quest giver is impressed with the playerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s performance in Quests 1-6, and lets the player in on the big picture: the MG hired the TG to recover an artifact of great power from the Darconis Vaults. You are to plan and execute the theft of the artifact. You must first gather information on the layout of the Vaults from an operative working in the Vault offices.
The player is sent to the Vault offices to gather information on the layout of the Vaults. The player instructs the informant to draft a report detailing how to best penetrate the vault. The drafting will take one day. When the player returns, s/he receives the report (sealed and encrypted, of course) and takes it to the quest giver.

Quest 7: The quest giver decrypts the report for the player. The report says that there are two ways to penetrate the Vaults. The first way is bluff their way into the vaults, sneak off when they are not being watched, and than bluff their way out. This plan will require the aid of a master of speechcraft and a master of sneaking.
The second way is to break into the vaults, pick multiple locks and disarm traps on the way to the artifact, and sneak out. This plan will require the aid of a master of sneaking and a master of security.
If the player chooses the first path, s/he must go and recruit the masters of speechcraft and sneaking. If the player chooses the second path, s/he must go and recruit the masters of sneaking and security.

Quest 8: The player must now execute the plan and steal the artifact. The player can keep it (and be expelled) or hand it over to the guild.

Quest 9: The player is now told of the grander designs of the TG. The player is to go in secret to a Telvanni lord and inform him/her that the MG has had the TG procure an artifact of persuasion that the MG will use to gain a political edge over the Telvanni. The player must identify him/herself as a Comma Tong agent (this makes sense, because the Comma Tong are always trying to bring down the TG, and share some political views with the Telvanni, being rascist and all), and offer to steal the artifact from the MG (for a price). The player than reports his/her success to the guild head.

Quest 10: The player has to find a way to empty the mages guild. The player can do this one of several ways. I am still brainstorming on how this will be done.

Quest 11: The player steals the artifact from the MG and takes it to the Telvanni Lord. The player is than payed a certain amount of money. The player can report the correct amount of money, or report a lesser amount than the Telvanni agreed to (skim off some for himself), or report that the Telvanni cheated them. If the player reports the Telvanni cheated them, go to quest 12.

Quest 12: The player places an annonymous letter in the desk of the head of the Darconis MG telling the MG that the Telvanni has the artifact stolen, and where to find it. This may cause further troubles for the MG/Telvanni down the line.

UPDATE: This has been severely changed and updated from its original form, but I beleive it is far superior updated

PS
Sorry for all the posts =P. IE is giving me troubles...Oh, and btw, this idea is seperate from my earlier Black Book-Double Cross idea. This is not simply the next evolution of that quest. They are not mutually exclusive, simply seperate

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:41 am

I have a problem with the "Black Book of House Dagoth" - there are so many lore gaps in such an artifact, besides the fact that it would be like the Brown Book of House Telvanni or the Yellow Book of House Hlaalu, and so forth (a recording of the events of a year)...
- Did the Chimer write books?
- Did House Dagoth write books?
- Did House Dagoth write a records book?
- How would an ancient book survive the sands of time?
- Why wouldn't the Temple have had such a book destroyed?
- How was it recovered in the first place?
- If one House Dagoth book survived, then logically wouldn't a shitload of other House Dagoth books have survived too?
- Where are other House Dagoth books then?
- Could anyone actually read the books anymore, since obviously the Chimer and Dunmer languages would be different, House Dagoth would probably have had their own dialect, etc.?
- etc. etc.

Edit: Oh yeah. Should we perhaps hold off writing quests until we know for sure what is going on with all the factions, especially the Thieves' Guild?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:48 am

I have to agree with Nomadic. At best such an artifact would be a stretch of lore, and it seems very cliche.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:11 am

I will try my best to address each one of your concerns as best I know how, although since the idea of the Black Book of House Dagoth is Stalker's idea, he is the one most qualified to answers your queries.
Did the Chimer write books?
Firstly, I am fairly confident that the Chimer did have written records. As you are well aware, the Chimer remained Chimer until 1E700 when the Daedra lord Azura cursed the Chimer for the actions of the Tribunal, and the Dunmer race was born. The Chimer civilization was quite advanced at the time of the War of the First Council, having already developed a Great House political system. To create such an intricte political structure would require written records. Although the rustic Chimer tribes maintained a strictly oral tradition, the House Chimer did indeed have written records.
Did House Dagoth write books?
As one of the Seven Great Houses (Indoril, Dres, Hlaalu, Redoran, Telvanni, Dagoth, Dwemeri) of Resdayn it can be safely assumed that House Dagoth had written records. Remember, they were not always an evil cloak & dagger & corprus underground organization. Whether the sleeping House Dagoth kept written records, I cannot know. As the sleepers and all blight servants were servants of Dagoth Ur enslaved by his will through telepathy, I would assume the entire House operated by the will of Dagoth Ur and needed no written records, simply telepathic intruction.
Did House Dagoth write a records book?
House Dagoth proper certainly wrote their own records books. Did the sleeping sixth house keep records? I doubt it, as a record book of all ranking Sixth House cultist would be a serious security issue.
How would an ancient book survive the sands of time?
A magical book could easily survive the rigors of time simply through its enchanted nature.
Why wouldn't the Temple have had such a book destroyed?
As for why the Temple has not called for the destruction of a profane aritfact of House Dagoth, that is indeed a good question. Were the book recovered before the fall of the Tribunal, its destruction at the hands of the ordinators would be guaranteed (if they knew of its existance). However, after the Tribunal's fall from godhood, I doubt many Tibunal zealots maintained their passion for the suppression of teachings other than the Trinbunal's. Although there may still be some Tribunal diehards, and Tribunal or not the Sixth House is certianly evil and profane. Perhaps, in the theives' guild tradition, the collectors collection is less than legal.
How was it recovered in the first place?
Perhaps it was recovered from a ruined and raided Sixth House base and sold in the underground to the highest bidder.
If one House Dagoth book survived, then logically wouldn't a shitload of other House Dagoth books have survived too?
It does not logically follow that alot of other books survived, because a very few books (and even few of them Dagoth) are magical
Where are other House Dagoth books then?
Perhaps other House Dagoth spellbooks can be recovered from Sixth House bases. That would be a good misc feature to add to TR
Could anyone actually read the books anymore, since obviously the Chimer and Dunmer languages would be different, House Dagoth would probably have had their own dialect, etc.?
The books, I beleive, would be written in the Daedric language (I beleive. I think Daedric is the magical language used for spellbooks and scrolls, although I am unsure on this) and the master of mysticism would be able to read that.
Finally, it does not even need to be a Black Book of House Dagoth. I was simply (and humbly) borrowing Stalker's idea, because it intruiged me. It could just be a powerful spellbook, perhaps a sermon of vivec on dispel spells? The book simply needs to be a powerful magical artifact that works only once to cast a limited range, limited duration, very powerful dispel spell.

As for why are we beginning Theives's Guild quests? Well, it is a good idea to have a basic outline of the Map 2 TG main quests, even if Map 2 is not completely finished.

The Black Book of House Dagoth issue aside, any comments on the rest of the questline?
I hope my answers are satisfactory. As always, I strive to please

Please post any more questions or concerns, as conflict brings strength, and the sharpest mind is the challenged one.
Peace