Map 2 Thieves Guild Discussion

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:29 am

I believe Nomadic's comments were probably directed more at Stalker than you; you were, afterall, only using his idea. A double crossing quest is a nice idea and probably excellent for the Theives' Guild, but I'm not sure if it fits into the way the Theives' Guild is set up for Map 2. It may, however, be possible to use that for the Neommaenor (Which I probably spelled wrong) master, but that'd have to be worked out with a more complete outline of the Theives' Guild members.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:40 am

Yes, although the questions were aimed more towards Stalker, they were intruiging and I simply could not pass up the opportunity to discuss lore =P
Thank you for the suggestions. When it comes time to to develop TG quests for Neommaenor I will certainly subit the double-cross quest.
I would also like comments on what you all think about my suggested questline for TG Draconis (suggestions, problems, lore, etc). So far, the only set-up I see for the TG Draconis quest is Telvanni-Imperial clashes and a dig at Kemel Ze. However, I may have missed something (not that unlikely). The Telvanni factor could easily be added to the questline by having the Telvanni also trying to steal the artifact, and the TG working for the mages guild. I am going to add that.
Update: I have modified my previous quest line. Due to lore conflicts, I removed the Black Book of House Dagoth and replaced it with a telvanni spellbook, and also added that the TG are working for the MG. Check it out a few posts earlier in the thread!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:00 am

A wonderful questline with some problems. My biggest complaints are..

Kemel-Ze is an enormous Dwemer ruin. Originally it was 72 large cells though I believe it's down to 40 or 50 or something. This spy is there spying on the archeologists working there (though Silvone never gave a reason, I provided one involving the Mages' Guild in my conflict thread). Why would he have a report about some sort of artifact being guarded in vaults or anything? This makes no sense at all.

The Theives' Guild is acting as a freelance agent on this map. Tension is high and they're helping anyone who can pay for it, often aiding two sides of a conflict. How does getting an artifact fit in with this?

Here's how it can be adapted, the Neommaeor or Neommaenor or whatever quest will be probably be serving two factions: the Imperial Cult's attempts to "enlighten" the Dunmer of the Divine grace and the Mages' Guild attempts to get into the tombs. This could be adapted to fitting with the getting into the tombs.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:26 am

Indeed, my concerns were aimed more towards Stalker. You did a good job answering some of the questions, but missed the point on others

- Did the Chimer write Books? (not written records - books)
- Did House Dagoth write books? (since the first question is murky enough, and there is no evidence of House Dagoth book-keeping, paper making, or anything of that sort)
- Why wouldn't the Temple have had such a book destroyed? with "How was it recovered in the first place?" {since the Tribunal led the destruction of House Dagoth personally and all Dunmer / Chimer were quick to destroy all things Dagoth, I can't see how such a book could have survived)
- Could anyone actually read the books anymore, since obviously the Chimer and Dunmer languages would be different, House Dagoth would probably have had their own dialect, etc.? (the Dunmer and Chimer write and wrote with the Daedric alphabet, not language)

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:30 am

Majra described Dunmeri as being the Dunmeri used during the First and Second Era. In other words, it would be that language.

However, a record keeping book for House Dagoth is boring anyway (though that's an amazingly awesome texture).

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:31 am

Aah yep, that is good then.

re: Quest Line
- I like your Quest 1, but I don't believe it should be Quest 1. There should be other quests first, since messages are unlikely to have been placed in untested hands. Probably a quest to show some minor thieving skill, one to be a bit underhanded, and one to help get the spy placed.
- I won't comment on the Vault part for now. I don't think masquerading as Dunmer nobles could work though, since the PC may or may not be playing as a Dunmer.
- Stealing the book from the Telvanni would be far too difficult and dangerous. I reckon that part should be left out.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:45 am

You raise a very good point, Nomadic, when you say that the report should not be put into untested hands. I thought the quest line was a little short, and a few tests could bring it to the proper length.
-As for the Dunmer nobles, I agree that is a bit of a stretch

However, I want there to be two ways to recover the artifact: the bluffing, bribing, persuading way and the sneaking, arcobating, lockpicking way.
-Omicron, I beleive I adress a few of your problems with the questline with my update of the questline that has the TG working for the MG to recover an artifact at Kemel Ze, competing against a team of rogues hired by the Telvanni to find the same artifact. This way, the TG are freelance agents working for the MG against the Telvanni. This also adresses Imperial/Telvanni tensions.
-Upon review, I have to agree with Nomadic that the telvanni spellbook is too powerful for this kind of questline. Perhaps it could be a lesser item, like simply a powerful dispel scroll, that does not need to be taken from the Telvanni. However, I feel like removing the idea entirely, as well as the master of mysticism, and simply having the two ways to steal the item: speak or sneak.
-What do you guys think? Oh, and one last question: what map section is Neommaenorabshfkahskssjsnlslsd in? I looked for it in the Map 2 paper-map, but could not find it. Maybe I overlooked it. I am interested in your suggestion of adapting the questline there, but am still think it can work at Draconis
-As for the Black Book of House Dagoth, I can see where I failed to answer your questions in a few areas. I'll leave it to the esteemed Stalker (the progenitor of the idea) to answer those

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:51 am

Neommaeor (or however you spell it) is an Imperial settlement opposite the causeway of Necrom. It was never added to the maps for some strange reason. There are also other settlements I suspect that were not added, although they would be of less consequence.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:55 am

Nomadic1 wrote:Neommaeor (or however you spell it) is an Imperial settlement opposite the causeway of Necrom. It was never added to the maps for some strange reason. There are also other settlements I suspect that were not added, although they would be of less consequence.

It's not EXACTLY an Imperial settlement, though. It was originally a Dunmeri fishing village and it does have a Temple, but the Dunmer have given up on keeping it and given it to the Imperial.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:57 am

UPDATE: Omicron, I was reading your post where you mentioned the TG playing multiple sides. Perhaps the fight with the Telvanni at the end can be eliminated, and the player can be sent (secretly) by the head of the Draconis TG to steal the artifact from the MG (after the TG was payed, of course)! It ends up that the TG was playing them both. The TG fed the MG information that Telvanni wants the same artifact as them, spurring the MG to hire the TG. Then the TG (posing as non TG) tells the Telvanni the MG are going to get their hands on a powerful artifact in order to keep it from the Telvanni and to do so have hired the TG. This spurs the Telvanni to hire to unwitting hire the TG. In the end, the TG steals from the MG and delivers to the Telvanni, and gets twice the price.
I am going to build that into my quest line, so check it out soon

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:18 am

This is great and all, but I think it would do better shortened. I'd like to see the Theives' Guild dealing with the MG vs Telvanni, the IC vs Temple, the MG. vs Temple, and the MG vs IAS. Heh, looks like the TG and MG are bonded together.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:26 am

I have created a longer version of the questline that deals with MG/Telvanni issues. It is more refined than what I indicated earlier. I can also create a shorter version, include a few more guilds, and see how that turns out. I may have to start a new thread for this. Note that I can lengthen or shorten this questline by the number of "proving" quests at the beginning. Note also that I have left out Kemel Ze altogether, as it created more problems than interesting quests

The short version will have to be written later, maybe in the next two days, as I am already seriously overdue for some much needed sleep
=P. Perhaps the Darconis TG could deal with two-three of the conflicts you mentioned, MG/Telvanni and another one or two. Between Darconis and N-place TGs, most conflicts should be covered. The only problem I see with having TG do alot of conflicts is a lack of coherence: it could just become a bunch of 2-3 quest long titbits, not tied together by anything. But that could be fixed. I was reading your quest conflict thread, and I beleive this questline (or one of its descendants) has a future in Darconis or N-place for dealing with the Telvanni/MG conflict. Is it possible to "claim" that part of the TG questline? PM me about that if you don't mind, as you seem to be the guru of faction conflicts at the moment
Here it is:
This quest line revolves around the planning and execution of an attempt to steal a powerful religious artifact from the vaults of Darconis. The player must gather information on the item, the layout of the vaults, recruit specialists, and than finally execute the plan.
The twist is that the TG is working for both the Telvanni and the MG. The MG initially comes to the TG to steal an artifact of persuasion that they can use against the Telvanni to gain a political edge or larger magic-market share. The TG agrees. After stealing the artifact, TG operatives pose as Comma Tong and inform the Telvanni of the MG plans. Telvanni than hires the TG (beleiving them to be CT) to steal the artifact from the MG.

Quests 1 to 3: The player performs routine TG duties and rises in rank in the TG. Eventually, he will have proven himself to be worthy of a highly sensitive mission directed by the Darconis TG head himself.

Quest 4: The quest giver is considering the player for creating and executing a plan to steal the powerful artifact from the Vaults, but first requires some proof of the playerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s prowess as a thief. Still in the dark about the grander designs of the Darconis TheivesÃ¢â‚¬â„¢ Guild, the player is sent on a difficult mission to steal some item.

Quest 5: The quest giver is impressed with the playerÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s performance in Quests 1-6, and lets the player in on the big picture: the MG hired the TG to recover an artifact of great power from the Darconis Vaults. You are to plan and execute the theft of the artifact. You must first gather information on the layout of the Vaults from an operative working in the Vault offices.
The player is sent to the Vault offices to gather information on the layout of the Vaults. The player instructs the informant to draft a report detailing how to best penetrate the vault. The drafting will take one day. When the player returns, s/he receives the report (sealed and encrypted, of course) and takes it to the quest giver.

Quest 6: The quest giver decrypts the report for the player. The report says that there are two ways to penetrate the Vaults. The first way is bluff their way into the vaults, sneak off when they are not being watched, and than bluff their way out. This plan will require the aid of a master of speechcraft and a master of sneaking.
The second way is to break into the vaults, pick multiple locks and disarm traps on the way to the artifact, and sneak out. This plan will require the aid of a master of sneaking and a master of security.
If the player chooses the first path, s/he must go and recruit the masters of speechcraft and sneaking. If the player chooses the second path, s/he must go and recruit the masters of sneaking and security.

Quest 7: The player must now execute the plan and steal the artifact. The player can keep it (and be expelled) or hand it over to the guild.

Quest 8: The player is now told of the grander designs of the TG. The player is to go in secret to a Telvanni lord and inform him/her that the MG has had the TG procure an artifact of persuasion that the MG will use to gain a political edge over the Telvanni. The player must identify him/herself as a Comma Tong agent (this makes sense, because the Comma Tong are always trying to bring down the TG, and share some political views with the Telvanni, being rascist and all), and offer to steal the artifact from the MG (for a price). The player than reports his/her success to the guild head.

Quest 9: The player has to find a way to empty the mages guild. The player can do this one of several ways. I am still brainstorming on how this will be done. It could just empty for a day when the quest activates, the head saying something like "I have arranged for it to empty!", like the Ald-Ruhn TG quest. If that is the case, quest 9 will go bye-bye, and this will be a part of quest 10(the new quest 9. confusing =P).

Quest 10: The player steals the artifact from the MG and takes it to the Telvanni Lord. The player is than payed a certain amount of money. The player can report the correct amount of money, or report a lesser amount than the Telvanni agreed to (skim off some for himself), or report that the Telvanni cheated them. If the player reports the Telvanni cheated them, go to quest 12.

Quest 11: The player places an annonymous letter in the desk of the head of the Darconis MG telling the MG that the Telvanni has the artifact stolen, and where to find it. This may cause further troubles for the MG/Telvanni down the line.p =P

Thank you guys for your help, it has produced a far better questline, and I hope the improvement process continues!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:56 am

Perhaps the Darconis TG could deal with two-three of the conflicts you mentioned, MG/Telvanni and another one or two. Between Darconis and N-place TGs, most conflicts should be covered.

In Darconis MG. vs Telvanni and MG. vs IAS would be what they were logically working on as they're the ones based in Darconis while the others are based in N-place. But that guild shouldn't have more than say 8 quests, really.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:04 am

In that case, I will work on shortening the MG vs Telvanni questline and including a MG vs IAS questline (although I might want some help with that) into a total of 8-10 TG Darconis quests.
UPDATE: In fact, I have already come up with a couple of idea. In a post on the Map 2 Guild Conflicts thread it was mentioned that the MG is looking to expand into Darconis. I was thinking that in order to eliminate competition and allow them to get better business in Darconis, the MG hires the TG to frame the IAS for smuggling dwemer artifacts out of Kemel Ze to sell on the black market. I heard somewhere in that same thread that the Naommaeor MG Head failed out of the IAS, and that could be another reason for the MG hiring the TG to frame the IAS. This could be a latest rumors thread, like: "I heard that X, the head of the MG in Neommaeor, it so bitter towards the IAS cuz he failed out of it."
In any case, I will begin work on this right away! When I finish with this, do I get it approved in Quest: Plots than send it to unclaimed quests?
UPDATE: Before I catch some Zs I decided to do an sketch of what the questline would be like with the MG/IAS conflict. The MG/IAS conflict comes first, and the player's performance convinces the Darconis TG head that he can tackle the harder MG/Telvanni quests. I have 4 MG/IAS quests (not all completed, but sketched out) and have brought the MG/Telvanni quests down to 5-6, for a total of 9 or 10 Darconis TG quests! A couple are very short prep-quests that I might put into bigger quests, making the ideal 8 or 9 Darconis TG quests do-able! Things seem to be looking up for Darconis TG...
Since the Map 2 interiors and NPCs are still a while from being done, I realize that it will be a bit before these become fully written quests with diaglogue, discussion threads, and npcs, but I will develop it as much as possible in the mean time. I must say, I am finding TR to be exhilirating. It has been nearly 6 months since I had an outlet for my creative energy this intense, demanding, and enjoyable

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:21 am

I've got a couple of ideas for quests 1 - 3 (the most necessary IMO)...

Quest 1: A Dunmer client has need of a sapphire amulet, and the guild steward says that Jeweller X in City X has them for sale (I chose sapphire amulets because they aren't all too common, yet are ordinary and expensive enough. It could be changed to another item) PC is told they could get a five-finger discount if they are careful. PC can either steal or buy the amulet. PC gets a journeymans lockpick and a journeymans probe for completing this mission.

Quest 2: PC is told that Thief X is a dimwitted loudmouth who recently said aloud a TG job to steal Decently-Valuable Enchanted Item X near an Imperial guard. The job was expected to be done by him, but now it has to be done by someone else sooner to provide them an alibi. PC is told to go Manor X, find and steal Item X, then return it to the quest giver. 24 hours after getting the quest, an Imperial guard will spring on the PC as they steal the item. If the PC returns with the item before 24 hours have elapsed, the PC gets 250 gold. If the PC steals the item after the 24 hours but escapes the guard, PC bounty is removed and they get 50 gold. If the PC steals the item after 24 hours but is caught by the guard and has the item confiscated, PC gets nothing. (Manor X should be in another city to warrant the time in this)

Quest 3: A shipment of smuggled jewels recently arrived in Cave X. PC is to go to Cave X, pick up the jewels and deliver them to a TG fence in the tavern / inn in Dragon Glade. Jewels are: 3 pearls, 2 rubies, 1 raw glass. The fence is leaving Dragon Glade in 5 days, so the delivery must occur within that period. If the PC completes the mission, they get 300 gold and some sujamma for a job well done. If the PC gets the jewels but doesn't deliver them in the 5 days, a journal entry tells them to take them to the quest giver ASAP, then if the PC doesn't give the jewels the quest giver within 3 days from then, they are expelled from the TG. If the PC doesn't pick up the jewels in the 5 days, the quest giver is unimpressed and the PC is expelled from the TG.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:47 am

xflclx has provided pretty argumented answers to your questions but I'll reinforce them with my own:

Did the Chimer write books?

And why wouldn't they ? I doubt they had any fiction, stories, poems etc. written but they had Great Houses and Minor Houses and those needed records.

Did House Dagoth write books?

Like xflclx said House Dagoth wasn't corprus diseased all the way.

Did House Dagoth write a records book?

Already answered.

How would an ancient book survive the sands of time?

Already answered in my initial description.

Why wouldn't the Temple have had such a book destroyed?

And why wouldn't Temple destroy Dwemeri books for example ?

How was it recovered in the first place?

Do you think Chimer\Dunmer are all white and fluffy ? Or the adventurers ? Stolen and sold.

If one House Dagoth book survived, then logically wouldn't a shitload of other House Dagoth books have survived too?

If one Dwemer survived, then logically wouldn't a shitload of other Dwemer survive ?

Where are other House Dagoth books then?

Where are the other Dwemer than ?

Could anyone actually read the books anymore, since obviously the Chimer and Dunmer languages would be different, House Dagoth would probably have had their own dialect, etc.?

Throughtout the history of Tamriel the main language of men and mer (in case of men - adopted and made into Common) was Aldmeris. In case of Common it was slightly modified. So we can safely assume that we could read the book.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:10 am

Now I will try and put as much of here mentioned ideas into coherent questline as possible.

As you migth already now Majra is writing sort of Dunmer bible named Exodus of Velothi. This is a series of religious books, writen by Chimer pilgrims, describing experience of exodus in mythical language from perspective of different houses.
Book of house Dagoth would be a logical part of it, for sure as house Dagoth was regular Chimer house before the battle on Red mountain.

These books were kept safe hidden in most sacred places, Necrom being one of them. Now Tribunal rises to power and inheirs all these holy books and places. Some of them can be explained in a new way, some must be hidden as libri prohibiti, but not destroyed as Tribunal are no barbars and they still feel respect to old Chimer religious tradition. Just full knowledge is dangerous to uneducated masses, not to them.

The book of house Dagoth is kept in Necrom tomb on a secret place and only the most devote priests and ordinators know of it existence and are allowed to study it.

And onto this Imperial Cult comes. They want to turn Dunmer to true believe and to use Thieves Guild. They pay for training of spy, who infiltrates Necrom Ordinators. After some time, he informs them about existence of this book.

IC leader discovers his opprtunity to discredit Tribunal and asks TG to steal this book so he can study it. However this will not be so easy. This is what has to be done:

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:20 am

There are secret ceremonies in the chamber of the book. Stealing of the book during the ceremonies is impossible as there is plenty of Necrom Ordinators, priests and zealots present. It must be done in the time between the ceremonies.
Once the book is stolen, Temple will be angry, but it can do nothing much as they cannot reveal existence of this book in public.

The book is closed in a secret chamber, locked on a high level with plenty of traps guarded by daedra and Ordinators. To steal it it will be necesary to:

1) Achieve an unique Dwemeri smith tool from Kemel-ze to create a copy of a secret key.
2) Steal a secret key to chamber from high temple member, make copy of it and return the original.
3) Bribe, distract or eliminate elite Ordinators.
4) Enter the shrine, disable traps and open the doors.
5) Defeating Daedra and Getting the book from piedestal.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:25 am

Would Ordinators be told of such a book. Anyway, it is an interesting and good idea for a quest. Though I'm kinda interested about what the Dagoth book could contain which discredits the Tribunal.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:42 am

Nomadic1 wrote:Would Ordinators be told of such a book. Anyway, it is an interesting and good idea for a quest. Though I'm kinda interested about what the Dagoth book could contain which discredits the Tribunal.

It will be just a list of councilors (aka current Ash Vampires) and Voryn Dagoth as a leader. Plus dieties of them. Nothing but a normal council book.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:13 pm

Twist - it actually doesn't discredit them. I actually like that

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:19 pm

Well, content of the book is not that important as the fact that it is book by enemy clan.
Here is how the quest goes:

1) Player as a new hirling is asked to obtain special Dwemer smithing hammer. He is not told what would it be for. Ruins of Kemel-Ze would be a good place to look for such an item, but Telvanni keep a close eye on the ruin, protecting it from scavengers and hardly allow members of IAS to enter. PC has two options.
1a) * Join IAS and enter the ruin under their protection.
1b) * Persuade Telvanni to turn a blind eye on him.

1a) If PC doesnot have enough skills to join IAS properly, he will have to bribe TG informant in IAS to get timely permission to join one expedition for the hammer. After doing some quests for IAS at certain time expedition will enter Kemel-Ze and PC will join it and retrieve the hammer. However he will be asked to give all artifacts to IAS archives at the exit. Then he will have to steal it from IAS vaults.

1b) PC must go to Telvanni overseer of Kemel-Ze and persuade him to allow him to enter ruin. Bribing and perusasion is difficult as this Telvanni guy is a hard-hearted. His disposition will raise though, if PC will agree to obtain records from Darconis Knight brother about Telvanni smuggling business. PC must sneak into the castle, in disguise inquire among servants, find the records and unnoticed by palace guards return them to the Telvanni lord. These records will contain some information on watched Telvanni smuggler outposts and routes, which PC can use as well for his good.
When persuaded, Telvanni master will promise to tell guards guarding Kemel-Ze to go for a break at certain time. At this time PC will be able to enter the ruin without being attacked by them.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:34 pm

I like big and involving quests.
1aa) Player is already in IAC (Theo I need to discuss some mutually exclusive guild membership with you)
No problems here. Enter, take and go.
1bb) Player is already a Telvanni.
If (PCRank < NPCRank) {bribe, talk and help}
else {command to let PC in}

1bbb) Player is not in Telvanni but is in Imperial Legion\Knights
The same scenarion as if player is Telvanni so if rank of the book-keeper is > than rank of the player = sneak else come and get because you need to.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:01 pm

Ok,
a) PC IAS
higher rank - go and take
lower rank - go and take and "reclaim" from vaults
b) PC Telvanni
higher rank - command, go and take
lower rank - bribe, go and take
c) PC legion
high rank - charge Telvanni from smuggling on base of reports
low rank - steal information and deliver
d) PC neither
da) get into IAS through protection of contact and then steal hammer from vaults
db) steal information and deliver
dc) sneak and fight

This is what we will do for quest 2.
2) Your questgiver needs a team for some big job. You are supposed to contact specialists and persuade them to work for your master. These are:
Enchanter - armorer, alchemy, enchant, illusion, alteration, mysticism.
Seducer - speechcraft etc.
Acrobat - acrobatics, athletics, unarmored, hand-to-hand etc.
and security expert - security, sneak etc.

- Enchanter will work for you if you get him some unique equipment.
- Seducer can be payed, but you must help her to get rid of unwanted lover, whom she did not manage to get rid of. Persuade him, beat him, kill him...
- Acrobat will go with you if you beat him in run and fight on hands.
- Security expert will help you, but he needs to get rid of attention of legion officer. Any more ideas???

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 3:22 pm

Actually what about the Grand Finale ? I mean when PC will bring the book to IL member and the latter will discover that it's just a list of councilors...

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:15 pm

Am I really the only one who thinks that a book with councillor names would be just plain boring? There are a million better things that could be done than that.

Also:

Stalker wrote:And why wouldn't Temple destroy Dwemeri books for example ?

Because they're not works of Dagoth Ur, the closest thing the Tribunal has to a devil.

Also, the Exodus of Veloth is really important to the Dres, it's their twist on the ALMSIVI basically. All books would be in their posession.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:26 pm

Well I think the Temple would enjoy destroying Dwemeri books as well. It's like the current Religion vs Science war going on in the real world. Religious groups would always try and destroy anything scientists had unearthed or had discovered to prove more of something about science.

I think the Temple would feel the Dwemeri were hugely undermining the faith that is the Tribunal, even though I wouldn't really call it faith, because the Tribunal is real, earthly, and current. (Well, were real, current, and earthly before they all died.)

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:27 pm

Omicron wrote:Am I really the only one who thinks that a book with councillor names would be just plain boring?

It was designed as a cover to a council book. Boring or not.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:44 pm

These books were kept safe hidden in most sacred places, Necrom being one of them. Now Tribunal rises to power and inheirs all these holy books and places. Some of them can be explained in a new way, some must be hidden as libri prohibiti, but not destroyed as Tribunal are no barbars and they still feel respect to old Chimer religious tradition. Just full knowledge is dangerous to uneducated masses, not to them.

As I said before, they are kept by the Dres, not the Temple.

The book of house Dagoth is kept in Necrom tomb on a secret place and only the most devote priests and ordinators know of it existence and are allowed to study it.

Why would you keep something in a tomb? Think silly!

And onto this Imperial Cult comes. They want to turn Dunmer to true believe and to use Thieves Guild. They pay for training of spy, who infiltrates Necrom Ordinators. After some time, he informs them about existence of this book.

Infiltrating the Necromic Ordinators is very unlikely. Also, the Exodus is of no importance to anyone but the Dres, just to make that clear. The Temple doesn't acknowledge it as holy.

wrote:1) Player as a new hirling is asked to obtain special Dwemer smithing hammer. He is not told what would it be for. Ruins of Kemel-Ze would be a good place to look for such an item, but Telvanni keep a close eye on the ruin, protecting it from scavengers and hardly allow members of IAS to enter. PC has two options.
1a) * Join IAS and enter the ruin under their protection.
1b) * Persuade Telvanni to turn a blind eye on him.

The Telvanni do not have the ruin under a close watch. It's constantly being looted and the IAS has a camp set up inside it. There's no way the Telvanni even care what's going on there.

1a) If PC doesnot have enough skills to join IAS properly, he will have to bribe TG informant in IAS to get timely permission to join one expedition for the hammer. After doing some quests for IAS at certain time expedition will enter Kemel-Ze and PC will join it and retrieve the hammer. However he will be asked to give all artifacts to IAS archives at the exit. Then he will have to steal it from IAS vaults.

And if he recalls? Or uses an intervention?

1b) PC must go to Telvanni overseer of Kemel-Ze and persuade him to allow him to enter ruin. Bribing and perusasion is difficult as this Telvanni guy is a hard-hearted. His disposition will raise though, if PC will agree to obtain records from Darconis Knight brother about Telvanni smuggling business. PC must sneak into the castle, in disguise inquire among servants, find the records and unnoticed by palace guards return them to the Telvanni lord. These records will contain some information on watched Telvanni smuggler outposts and routes, which PC can use as well for his good.
When persuaded, Telvanni master will promise to tell guards guarding Kemel-Ze to go for a break at certain time. At this time PC will be able to enter the ruin without being attacked by them.

Again, there is no "Telvanni overseer."

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:47 pm

The dunmer keep many things in tombs, and Necrom is insanely secure. Something of religeous significance would be right at home in this tomb.

Post by **Haplo** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:21 pm

What's all this got to do with Thieves Guild discussion for Map 2?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:25 pm

That's a really good question Haplo. Actually, I think if you actually read "all this" you would know what it has to do with the Theives' Guild.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:04 pm

I want to coordinate what TG questlines are taking place in which locations. So far, I have that the TG questline I have written, with the addition of IAS quests, will be the Darconis TG questline. This will cover MG/IAS and MG/Telvanni conflicts. The questline that Theo has in the making involving the Imperial Cult and the Tribunal and the Black Book of House Dagoth will be questline for the Necrom TG (with, perhaps, a few misc quests or another guild conflict questline included). That leaves the Neommaeor TG questline to be drafted (and, of course, current drafted questlines to be refined like mad)
I could have missed something, screwed up locations, etc. Please notify my if I am in error. In addition, here are the MG/IAS quests that I have thought up for the Darconis TG:

Quest 1 (borrowed from Nomadic 1): A Dunmer client has need of a sapphire amulet, and the guild steward says that Jeweller X in City X has them for sale (I chose sapphire amulets because they aren't all too common, yet are ordinary and expensive enough. It could be changed to another item). PC is told they could get a five-finger discount if they are careful. PC can either steal or buy the amulet. PC gets a journeymans lockpick and a journeymans probe for completing this mission.

Quest 2: The player is informed by the TG steward that the MG wants to expand and build a guild chapter in Darconis. However, with the IAS in Darconis the MG needs to emliminate or soften the competition before setting up shop. The MG has hired the TG to discredit, or at the least embarrass, the IAS by framing them for smuggling Dwemer artifacts out of Kemel Ze to sell on the black market. The first task the player is to undertake towards this end is to travel to the Kemel Ze dig-site and steal from the on-site IAS dig-manager the IAS Kemel Ze Dig Records Book (listing progress, artifacts discovered, artifacts shipped out and to where they were shipped). The dig-manager will likely keep the records book in his office in a locked box. The player has 3 hours from the time he steals the book to take it to the TG guild steward, have it edited to show suspicious activites (an instantaneous event when the PC talks to the steward with the book in hand), and return it to the locked box it was taken from. The best way to do this would be with a combination of Intervention and Mark/Recall spells (although boots of blinding speed work just as well

). If the player fails to return within the three hours, the book is reported missing and the mission is scrubbed. No reward. Move on to quest 3.

Quest 3: The player is now sent on the task of taking dwemer artifacts from temporary storage at the IAS dig in Kemel Ze and planting them in the IAS chapter in Darconis, specifically in the stweard's personal chest. The player will steal 4 or so dwemer items from a high-level locked/trapped box at IAS Kemel Ze temporary storage and plant them in IAS steward's chest. (What happens if player is caught? Any ideas?)

Quest 4: The player must deliver a letter to an Imperial investigator implicating the IAS in an operation to smuggle dwemer artifacts out of Kemel Ze and sell them on the black market. The letter implicated the IAS steward as the ringmaster (remember, the MG steward in Neommaeor lost out to the IAS steward for that position. The guild steward should tell the player this, for yuks). The letter is to be placed inside the investigator's desk. Will require the player persuading or sneaking and lock picking his/her way through an imperial building.
Now the questline moves on to MG/Telvanni conflict, the player having proven him/herself in this conflict.

Questions? Comments? Ideas (always welcome!

)

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:48 pm

This is my idea for a little questline, though it doesnt necessarily have to be all in one go.

1. You are told to steal the Knight Brother Marrick's armor. You are told that there is a woman by the docks who has never failed in seducing a man. You must pay him to distract Marrick. If you wait where you are told to (eg just outside his room) you can hear the conversation and she fails. You must tell this to the TG boss.

2. You are told that Marrick observes formalities, such as removing armor when meeting a noble lady. You must first find a letter written in the Dutchess of Firewatch's hand and bring it to the master forger in Darconis. He will give you a letter requesting an audience with Marrick. Give this to a servant just outside Marrick's room and he says he will pass it on. You must wait in a certain place for a journal entry telling you that Marrick will be meeting with the dutchess. Go into Marrick's chamber to find his armor. Take it and return to the TG member.

3. Marrick has ordered many people to search for his armor. In order to cover your tracks, you must implicate someone else as a theif. Go and steal several items, like the pitcher from the Shrine, a sword from the armory and a bottle of expensive wine from the kitchen and place these in the Governer's son's chest. The TG member will say this will make Marrick consider the man a thief, but not enough to imprison him, allowing you to exploit this situation.

4. You want to implicate the Son in a theft. First you must make it look like he is going out of town. You must find a letter written in the hand of a friend of his (someone in Naemeannor) and get the forger in Darconis to make a fake invite. Also you must get something written in the son's hand and get the forger to write a letter which is along the lines of 'I'm tired of Marrick interfering with my father's business, and its time to do something about it.' Give the false invite to the son to make him go out of town in the direction of Necrom (ie disappear). Reach Naemeannor before him (impossible to fail since he wont reappear until you do this) and give the letter to his friend. The son will now be in Naemaennor (the hardest to spell place in all tamriel) and be slightly confused that the friend has no recollection of sending such a letter. You must then drug him by slipping a vial of potion into a pitcher of water in his room to make sure nobody sees him while he is supposed to be robbing somewhere.

5. You must don Marrick's armor, apply some redguard facepaint (ie makes you look like Marrick) and head into Necrom at night. You must sneak into the tombs and steal (X Artifact). Before sunrise you must place the armor in the son's room before he wakes up from the poison. If you accomplish this then guards, on Marrick's suspicion, will search the room and find the armor worn by the thief. They will assume that the son was trying to set up Marrick for the theft, which will be confirmed by the letter 'he sent' to his friend saying he was going to do something about Marrick.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:08 am

The questline you wrote seems rather intricate, however it borders on somewhat convoluted. The biggest problem I have with the questline is that, if the triggering event is stealing Marrick's armor for the TG boss, and in the end you return the armor to frame Marrick's son for the theft of the armor, what is the point of the questline? To frame Gov's son for theft? If so, it would be better if Gov's son was being a thorn in the Darconis or Neommaeor TG's side, and they want to set him up for a fall from power. Still, it would make more sense if Marrick was the one cracking down on the TG, since he is the Knight Brother and in the real position of power.

In addition, as was posted somewhere earlier in the forum, Marrick is a pretty hardline guy, and it is doubtful that he would fall for the first option of seduction, although the second option of a fake meeting is pretty sound.

But the biggest problem is that, in the end, the main goal of stealing Marrick's armor has failed because you return the armor to frame the Gov's son. The goal at the beginning and end of a questline must remain the same (or be related in a logical and interesting way) or the questline is inane.

As with all first drafts, the clods of dirt need to be torn through to get to the diamond inside. Keep working and you could have a gem

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:26 am

The main objective is to steal the artifact from the tombs. This would be a very serious crime whihc the dunmer would want someone to be punished for. Since its theft they would probably turn to the thieves guild for their scapegoat, so you must provide them with a fallguy. However, the son has no actual motive, so you make it seem that it trying to get rid of Marrick, who is a thorn in his father's side to a certain extent (the father who is a puppet of the Imperial Cult)

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:30 am

What artifact?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:33 am

It is in part 5 listed as (X Artifact). I didnt go into too much detail though.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 12:37 am

Haha, I just realized my error and rushed back to the forums and saw your new post. You should have said so from the beginning! Forgive my confusion

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:30 am

Im not sure what kind of artifacts they would keep in Necrom's Tombs...maybe the sword of some old warrior or the shin bone of St Olms...