Thirsks concept art: Argonian armour

Thirsk · Post by **Thirsk** » Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:36 pm

well, allright i think this is more concept than art but here it comes:
Argonians dont worship gods, they worship holy trees, these trees are guarded by argonians wearing this armour and one of the three weapon sets

feedback is welcome, if its not just critising my drawing skills...

Abramul · Post by **Abramul** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:21 am

Can you do tail-armor?

Zalzidrax · Post by **Zalzidrax** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:29 am

It would require some fancy modelling and fancy scripting, but I think it is possible. Might not be worth it though.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:39 am

I would say its not worth it. Its more likely to offbalance the wearer. Maybe argonians can lose their tails and have them grow back. It doesnt really matter.

Thirsk · Post by **Thirsk** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:35 am

i have done a tail armour, look between the greaves and the gloves,

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:31 pm

We mean in the game.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:55 pm

I like that design on the armour - it's got a very distinctively natural grace to it, with subtle curves... the cuirass is actually quite similar to an idea I drew a few months ago, so it's nice to know we're thinking in the same direction.

I've not the same sentiments on the pauldrons; I think that too much of any hard material on an argonian combatant would hinder their movement too much and put a large damper on argonian fighting styles.

Most Argonians are not too keen on getting up-close-and-personal. Their bodies (save for Tanza-Ra and perhaps a few exceptional Sutadee) aren't really built for it, and so they prefer ranged combat. Swords are pretty much out.

When you think of argonian weaponry, think about what they might use without getting near enough to be harmed. When faced with a heavily armoured, sword/axe weilding foe, and argonian is more likely to rely on his agility and acrobatics to flee out of range, then resume his attack with a projectile weapon or spear.

In the case of the Tanza-Ra, I still wouldn't condone the excessive use of long blades. Most argonian villages are without a forge or weaponsmith, and so the residents therein would have spent the greater parts of their lives training with what crude weapons they could fashion themselves. This means more blunt weapons, more axes and picks than cold steel blades.

EDIT: Ooh - and on the tail armour... It my be possible to have it appear in-game, but it would require scripts to detect NPC/PC race and the addition of the proper item for races with different tails.

Thirsk · Post by **Thirsk** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:29 pm

well, about the weapons, wouldnt javelins be ideal?

about the tail-armor that it was opposite boots and full-helmets, only wearable by beastraces (but im sure it would look silly with khajit)

wishmaster · Post by **wishmaster** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:32 pm

great work!

But Argonians can't use gloves...

Abramul · Post by **Abramul** » Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:34 pm

Umm, yes they can?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:42 am

Stumpy, I disagree with you. If, like Thirsk said, this set was to be used by guardians of the Hist, it should be rough and ready and suited to melee combat. These warriors are protecting their gods, and as such should be prepared to die doing so. They'll want to put as fortified a wall of warriors as possible between the Hist and their attackers, not run and attack from a distance to save their own hides. Fair enough, there will be a number of guardians hiding in surrounding foliage with bows and javelins or whatever, but they're not going to leave the Hist completely without solid protection.
However, this means that Thirsk's light, leather-ish armour is only going to be useful for the ranged guards. The hardcore guardians are going to want something more substantial; big shields, full-cover mail and helms, and melee weapons like swords and spears.
Plus, another reason for heavier armour is pure vanity. Every Argonian armour concept seems to be falling into the trope of "light and feathery, 'cos lizards move around a lot". If all armour in Black Marsh is light or medium weight, it'll get pretty boring and frustrating. Remember that most of the Hist-guarding will be done by the walking tanks that are Tanza-Ra

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:52 am

Ok, now for my thoughts on the matter:

1)Metal: Argonians have little to no access to metal, so that rules out conventional swords, spears, armour, etc.

The best idea for a sword would be the idea Zalzidrax and I have been suggesting a lot: a flat, wooden "bat" with sharpened flint edges.

2)Tail guards: I would have to say 'no' to this. I imagine tails wouldn't be strong enough to support armour and would throw the wearer off-balance.

3)Armour: The highest Hist Guards and front lines soldiers would probably wear Hist Resin armour or some other medium-weight armour. The rest would probably wear ceremonial clothing. This would explain their medium armour and unarmoured bonuses.

Just a few suggestions.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:11 am

Metal: Having Argonian Silver implies that they have some form of mining, which implies they have access to some form of metal.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:13 am

I don't think you can completely rule out metal equipment. There's going to be at least a small amount of it available (I'd guess more than Hist resin in any case), and I heard something about Argonian Silver, so it makes sense for them to use as much as is necessary to protect their gods. It stands to reason that they're going to be pretty paranoid about it, considering the Hist have been reduced in number to only three. Maybe even a small amount of metal in an armour set to protect vitals or whatever.
I personally love the idea of the primitive wooden/resin swords though. I had an idea for a resin warhammer, it's basically just a big fat chunk of resin on the end of a pole haft. I guess you've got to be sensible with how many of these weapons are floating about the place, and how much resin that means the Hist have bled; you can't go overboard on it. That's why I thought it might be a good idea to introduce a new material besides resin

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 2:15 am

Even so, their weapons would not look exactly like Western Imperialized weapons.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:21 pm

oh no, certainly not. I'm just saying that you can't completely rule out metal in Argonian equipment

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:11 pm

It could be possible that the Argonian Silver they have is all from the surface. Sometimes Magma seeps upwards into the crust. Here it cools very slowly over millions of years as the earth is eroded, forming what are known in England as Tors. Dartmoor is an area in Devon which has huge granite tors. The size of the crystals means that millions of years ago Dartmoor was ridiculously mountainous.

Basically Argonian Silver ore could feasibly be found in piles of rocks on the surface. Of course the imperials will have set up proper mines, most likely of the open-cast type, if the Amazon is anything to go by.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:35 pm

This brings up another topic: Argonian Jewelry. They could have adorned themselves with various silver trinkets such as noserings, earings, and maybe silver headdresses.

Stumpytheguar · Post by **Stumpytheguar** » Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:53 pm

I simply refuse to believe that Argonians would willingly work in mines of the same fashion as the Vvardenfell slavers have them.

Argonian silver from a surface source or open quarry? Sure. But from a long, dark, deep, dank, smelly, rusty mine? No friggin way.

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:59 am

This just a sugestion, but what about having shell weapons seeing that its an aqutic resouce and which they would willingly gather rather than being in a cold cave mining all day.(I dont know if it would be accepted in lore, would someone be able to post something back about that)

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 10:11 am

The black marshes would probably be unsuitable for mines due to the abundance of water in the soil, so it would be open cast mining probably. Bear in mind that the Dunmer used shells so we dont want to be too close to that. There is a limit to what can be done with shells. I think that with the Resinous Vine type armor as seen in the Hist Cuirass is the step down from the Argonian Silver stuff. However, for weapons, resin hardened shells could work. I have a book next to me which shows a certain mollusc shell which when i saw it thought 'Huh whats a spearhead doing here?' When I read up about it I found it was supposed to be cylindrical, so if we change it to a flattened one we have a whole new creature...something we can use instead of slaughterfish.

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:34 am

A change from the slaghterfish would be great, but i disagree with the argonians not being able to have shell armour the dumner dont have shell armour thats ectoskellton armour if u where refering to chitin.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:51 pm

Well, dunmer shell armors are mostly a Telvanni thing, like the cephalopod helm...

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 12:12 am

theres that to, but thats still an exoskellton, i was thinking more on the lines of that thing that looks like a clam (i cant remember what its called) and used as armour

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:30 pm

Well the dunmers use the shells of bugs. A shell is an exoskeleton of sorts, and all exoskeletons are shells. Shell armor would be fine for the areas with lots of shells, ie costal regions, but for the deepest darkest jungle all you will get are insect shells which would be too much like Dunmer chitin. What I would say is have the interior Argonions using vines and wood hardened by the hist resins and have th costal ones incorporating shells etc. In essence, have them using what they have around them.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:16 am

I don't think you should exclusively localize certain armour types to certain areas of the map. Things have a way of getting around via trade and travel; Orcish armour on Vvardenfell is a good example.
Although it's true that limiting the amount of alien influence in each area gives the player a sense of well-defined locale and variety in surroundings.
For the shell armour, it might be a good idea to incorporate giant conch shoulder pads or helms. Massive round shells with foot-long spines would loook nice and dangerous

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:19 am

The Argonians arent so friendly with one another. Its less a case of 'we are the argonians' its more 'we are sutadee, they are another race altogether'. They all share the same basic culture and thus the Empire calls them one name...argonians. However they can be as different from one another as you like.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 2:05 am

Well not really. From what I understand each tribe consists of different quantities of each sub-race, so like there might be 30% Sutadee 20% Tanza Ra etc etc. in one single group, and it would be named after the prevailing sub-type. Plus, all sub-types start life as the same "unseeded" type of Argonian before the Hist grants assigns their race, so it's not going to be the same racial divide as, say, the Altmer and Bosmer. This was a while ago when I read this though, so maybe you're right and the system's been rethought.
Anyway, that's not the point

What I meant was that things get around one way or another. Even if it meant that tribes in the deep jungles were raiding the coastal territories for sources of shell (or whatever) because it offers better protection than wood or resin. Or maybe there was a tidal wave that washed shells deep into the jungle, something daft like that. Just an example, but you know what I mean

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 11:10 am

Look at it like the Dunmer Bonemold styles. Each tribe has its own type of thing made in their own way, but while the dunmer just change the shape, the argonians change the materials to a certain extent.

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:50 am

What about leave armour? giant rainforest sorta leaves bound togehter with wood/vines and heaps of other mixed matched objects (like shells).

Thirsk · Post by **Thirsk** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:34 pm

i have made a sketch of how a set of how a such set of leaf armour might look

RowanTiernan · Post by **RowanTiernan** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:14 am

Hey guys. On the topic of argonian weaponry, ive heard that in many respects the argonian culture resembles that of the Meso and South American Cultures of RL. Hearing this, as well as someone mention a wooden Mallet type sword, I instantly came upon the idea of implementing the Aztec macuahuitl into the game. The macuahuitl is a wooden bat, outlined by sharp peices of obsidian and or flint, forming a primitive sword. The sword needed no metalurgy technology to be created, which suits the argonians fairly primitive technology, and instead of obsidian for the blades, ebony or some other type of hard stone could be implemented. Heres a piece of concept art i have made to represent the macuahuitl, so you can get a better idea of what I am talking about. To add a little argonian feel to it, i chose to bound the handle in some sort of reptilian hide. I hope you guys like it and are able to use it!

[url=http://img399.imageshack.us/my.php?image=aztecclub2ub.jpg][img]http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/1526/aztecclub2ub.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Lutemoth · Post by **Lutemoth** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:15 am

The Old Ye Bard wrote:What about leaf armour? giant rainforest sorta leaves bound together with wood/vines and heaps of other mixed matched objects (like shells).

My thoughts exactly. If metals are too far-fetched, and shells too overdone, organic tree material is the easiest, most attainable route. Perhaps the argonians have perfected a way in which oils, sap and resins can combine with bark or leaves to create a lightweight, durable armor.

With that, they could weave it together with sinewey vines and such to mold armor plating (not in the looks of imperial, something very minimalistic and unprotective surface-wise).

This could also lead to a hierarchy of forms of armor, different colours and styles depending on each tribe, and their status, and the process in which each was formed (different sap/resins, different results)

Cyax · Post by **Cyax** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:27 am

Alright, well im not a lore guru or anything so just tell me if this idea is totally out of the question but, what about Argonian leather, made from the skin of argonians form rival clans and what-not.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 4:41 pm

Well, some Argonian tribes might be a bit crazy, but I highly doubt that they would make leather out of their own species. That's like you going out and making human leather or something.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:15 pm

well, heres the thing, leafs dont make very good armor...
they arent very protective, they rot....

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:45 pm

Maybe this can be a cloth or something.

Lutemoth · Post by **Lutemoth** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:26 pm

Lady Nerevar wrote:well, heres the thing, leafs dont make very good armor...
they arent very protective, they rot....

any animal hide would find itself deteriorating, had it not gone through a tanning process to make hard leather. We know that the argonians are in a current stage of civilization that is very primitive compared to the rest of tamriel, and at the same time they are very mysterious.

And with the amount of flora that hasn't been discovered by the outside world (referring to the hardening saps and resins idea) might leave such technology open for interpretation, and very reasonable. Of course leaves would make terrible armor, one might as well be wearing tissue paper. Unless these leaves, bark, and wooden staves were formed to curvatures and shapes by means of process involving boiling liquids.

here, I'll show you what I mean:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v422/wrongfoot/concept/argonian_armor.jpg

also, a little bit of original concept art material from the morrowind site:
[img]http://static.elderscrolls.com/images/codex/races_argonian_center03.gif[/img]

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:03 am

The leaf armor is very argonain! I like the idea, using resins and sappy stuff that gets really hard. The argonians seem like they would be the type to use a lot of light armor too.

Another blackmarsh friendly armour could be some sort of combiation of braiding and bamboo, kind of like japaneese armor (though I hear they dont actualy use bamboo.)

[edit] I have attempted some concepts based on this idea here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=15310