Map 2 Temple discussion

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:10 pm

Temple HQ on map 2 will be located in Necrom and the main questline should revolve about conflict with Sisterhood of the spider and connected Morag Tong.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:17 pm

How could Temple be conflicting with MT ? Daedra worship ?

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:22 pm

Well, the Sisterhood worships Daedra and so does Morag Tong. At the end of Morrowind MQ Tribunal Temple acknowledged anticipation worship, but the animosities might be still surviving.
I mean in Morrowind Temple doesn't have very nice affiliation with Morag Tong, does it?

presh · Post by **presh** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:29 pm

But does the Temple have a negative relationship with the MT? At least enough to cause major conflict? Both the MT and Temple have tolerated each other for so long I can't really see why either would get involved with the other.

Also, if the PC finishes the main quest, the temple signals a movement back towards worship of the "good daedra", of which one is Mephala.

The MT and the Temple have such different spheres of influence. I think it would be unusual for them to conflict in a substantial way. Vyvara Araneae also mentions in her post about the sisterhood that there is no overt conflict between them and the Tribunal Temple.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:42 pm

Yes, I agree. If I recall correctly MG is even more ancient installation than the Temple. Plus it will be quite unwise to conflict with skillfull assasinss...

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:06 pm

Indeed, a Temple and Morag Tong conflict is completely unfeasible. There could be some minor conflict with the Sisterhood of the Spider, but even that would be extremely limited.

The Temple in Necrom would probably be working against the Imperial Cult (which should not have much of a presense in Map 2, and the IC would not want a conflict), the Legion, the Imperials in general in Neommaeor, and the Mages Guild.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:11 pm

May I suggest something very radical ? We don't have Temple Map 2 quests at all. Instead we will have Ordinator factions. Temple quests will be done when we will have more maps or at least Map 3 so Map 2 Temple will be multi-mapped.

presh · Post by **presh** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:15 pm

If we are locked into this course, perhaps a member of the sisterhood murders a high ranking member of the temple, on the instructions of Mephala. The temple has not come across this before, and the MT disavows all knowledge. The temple wants the PC to first investigate the murder and find out more about this group, as they had not been aware of its existence.

Perhaps further missions could involve the capture of a high ranking member of the sisterhood and her questioning by ordinators. Possibly followed by a "crusade" against the cult.

The only justification for this I can see though is if the sisterhood threatened the temple, which they would only do if they were crazy, or instructed to by Mephala. Hell, they don't actually need to be instructed by the daedra, just think they were.

One thing, there have to be temple quests on Map 2. Necrom is the holiest site in all Morrowind, and the centre fo the Temples influence. It would be wierd if we didn't have temple quests here. Sorry Stalker, didn't read all of your post - maybe wait for map 3 and make it multi-map.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:22 pm

I'm all for Map1-3 multi-map Temple quests. That way there could be a really nice Temple+Indoril vs. Telvanni conflict. Just read Brown Book:

Brown Book wrote: Great House Indoril has sent offers to the Council for purchases of land to build Tribunal Temples. After much deliberation the Council has declined all substantial offers.

presh · Post by **presh** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:30 pm

Though we could have Necrom temple quests dealing with the Telvanni, and a seris of Almalexia quests dealing with the spiritual health of the west of Morrowind.

Why not arrange the secret construction of a temple in Telvanni lands. Perhaps not practical. Or approaching a series of Telvanni Lords and requesting that they personally get invloved, rather than make it a council issue. Perhaps one of them would allow you to start construction of a temple?

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:33 pm

Yes, that could be interesting. I always love construction quests.

presh · Post by **presh** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:10 pm

Though I must admit in the last hour I have grown enamoured of a conflict between the sisterhood and the temple. I can see the temple trying to squash them out as heretical. The temple is the only conduit between the anticipations and dunmer, or so the temple would have. The sisterhood may be a little heretical for them.

The Morag Tong however is a no go - the Temple tolerates them and they tolerate the temple. In fact it is probably not even toleration, they just have nothing to do with one another. It sounds like the Morag Tong and the sisterhood have little to do with each other also.

Are there ordinator quests on this map, because the Temple and ordinator quests could be linked - temple the theoretical and doctrine matters, the ordinators the practical killing and stuff.

So, sisterhood or construction? Or something else?

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:16 pm

I would say that we should leave the Temple MQ to be multi-mapped but misc. Temple questline include new temple construction on Telvanni teritory. Actually it will be multi-mapped too because it will involve Map 1. Which is really good methinks.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:39 pm

I'm personally strongly against the Temple's main "thing" being against the Sisterhood, because that's what happened on Map 1. I didn't realize there was a Temple discussion thread, but here are some ideas from my conflict thread.

1. Trying to fend of Imperial Cult missionairies
2. Dealing with unrest in Necrom
3. Mages' Guild Necromancers
4. Forcing their worship on the Telvanni
5. A Holy Lands pilgrimage

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:43 am

There is always the possibility that the ever mysterious Mephala the Web Spinner (second only to the Prince of Plots in scheming) could be weaving an intricate and nefarious plot to remove the Temple using the MT and Sisterhood as her pawns and tricksters. However, that is merely brain food, something to ponder. Personally, I do not think that the MT would become involved in open conflict (as "open" as the MT get) with the Temple. The MT is a brotherhood of tradition, their methods and rules of execution dating back 2 millenia to the First Era. If the Temple respects nothing else, it is devotion to tradition. I also do not see the sisterhood feasibly finding grounds for conflict against the temple.

Another possible inter-faction conflict is the Temple trying to push its beleifs on the Telvanni. However, even when the Temple was at the height of their religous fervor (oppressing opposing faiths and all as the Tribunal's power and Temple's faith waned) they made no overt moves to bring the Telvanni into the mainstream religious practices. Sure, the Temple encouraged the raiding and destruction of Telvanni rogue bases, and came down like the fury of Oblivion on any rogue Telvanni necromancers, but never was a move directly aimed at bringing the Telvanni in to the Temple. The Temple merely worked to isolate the damage the profane Telvanni could cause to the faith of its followers (needed to maintain the Ghostfence).

And remember, that was before the fall of the Tribunal. Before Almalexia went mad and Slew Sotha Sil. Before she herself was cut down by a hero that to many represented the return of the ancient Velothi traditions ( among them daedra worship). Before that same hero had slew the devil Dagoth Ur and driven his minions back into the bowls of Red Mountain, had succeeded where the Temple has repeatedly failed. The Temple faith has been dealt a blow from which it will never recover, and they are in no position to force a beleif system on a house as ancient and powerful as Telvanni. And the Ordinators, revealed as overzealous and violent enforcers of a dying religion, are in no position to campaign against any faction.

I think that Map 2 Temple quests should highlight just how far the Temple has fallen especially because Necrom, the holiest Temple sight, is in Map 2. Necrom, once firmly held together by faith in the Tribunal temple, should be coming apart at the seams, the Temple scrambling to maintain peace. I think that the Temple quests should be attempts to repair the damage done to the temple faith and authority. The player could lead the Temple on their new path of embracing ancient velothi traditions and recognizing the Tribunal as saints and great protectors (but not gods). In doing so, the player would have to deal with winning back the trust of the public, restoring faith in the temple, fending off IC missionaries eager to pull in distraught and faithless former Temple members, and dealing with Temple hardliners driven even more extreme by the unmistakable evidence of their gods' non-divinity into rash, even violent, action. Perhaps a once powerful Temple authority figure in Necrom is preaching that the Tribunal did not fall, they infact defeated Dagoth Ur, not the Nerevarine, and this is all a grand test of the people's faith in them (such lunacy has precedence here in the real world). Perhaps this Temple figure, driven mad by grief, disillusionment, and a life of lies is trying to gather outside aid to take Necrom by force and forcefully and brutally reinstate traditional Tribunal teachings. Perhaps the player agrees, and wants to help...Temple should have alot of internal conflict.

Anyway, those are a few ideas of mine, and where I see the Temple heading post-fall of the Tribunal.

Comments? Suggestions? Problems? Post! Post! Post!
Conflict is the spice of life, and argument the protein-shake of the brain

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 4:54 am

Except, ofcourse, that no one believes that Ayem and Seht are dead. So, basically, most of that is moot.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:58 am

actually, in the Quest: Ideas thread entitled Morrowind Main Quest, Administrator Vegor posted that:

"It is well known among men and mer that the Empire's power is not as grand as it used to be and that there might be a way to defeat them.
With the coming of the supposed Nerevarine this feeling would only increase. With the recent events at Red Mountain and Mournhold (it will be accepted that Almalexia and Sotha Sil are truly dead and that the Tribunal has fallen) the feeling of an uphand revolution will only be strengthened."

you may find that in context here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=3947

And I would say that I have to agree with him, it will be generally accepted. Vivec himself hailed the Nerevarine as the true Nerevar incarnate, and with that title comes the respect and trust of the people. If Nerevar says Al and Soth are dead and the Tribunal fallen, the people will beleive, especially if the mutilated corpses of Al and Soth are presented. And Vivec would have no reason to hide the fall of the Tribunal: he stands by his actions, and has admitted the truth, to the Nerevarine and the people. The Tribunal truly has fallen. Were the Dunmer to continue diluted and foolish, the Nerevarine would have accomplished nothing and the plot would be pointless. Remember, part of the Nerevarine prophecy is that s/he will reveal the Tribunal for the false gods they are. By the words of Azura herself, as spoken to the Nerevarine after the slaying of Dagoth Ur:

"You no longer bear the burden of prophecy.
You have achieved your destiny.
You are free.
The doomed Dwemer's folly, Lord Dagoth's temptation,
the Tribunal's seduction, the god's heart freed,
the prophecy fulfilled."

Saibot · Post by **Saibot** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:05 am

I am a firm supporter of all multi-map quests. The Temple inparticular should have a wide spread quest-line, covering at least two maps if not all of morrowind.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:10 am

here here, Saibot

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:31 am

xflclx wrote:actually, in the Quest: Ideas thread entitled Morrowind Main Quest, Administrator Vegor posted that:

"It is well known among men and mer that the Empire's power is not as grand as it used to be and that there might be a way to defeat them.
With the coming of the supposed Nerevarine this feeling would only increase. With the recent events at Red Mountain and Mournhold (it will be accepted that Almalexia and Sotha Sil are truly dead and that the Tribunal has fallen) the feeling of an uphand revolution will only be strengthened."
you may find that in context here: http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=3947

It's a shame I have to disagree with Vegor yet again. While this is what I guess would happen in lore, it is not what happens in-game, and we're dealing with in-game situations. Here is some dialogue for proof (which, by the way, is assigned to almost every NPC in the entire game once you have completed Tribunal.)

NPCs on Solstheim say they don't know a thing about her. Vivec accepts it and believes it. Then...

Galsa Andrano wrote:Your story is unbelievable. But... rumors here say Almalexia is no longer in Mournhold, and she plans to be gone indefinitely. They say she exhausted her body and spirit in the war against Dagoth Ur, but now she plans to travel in disguise among the people, living the life of a mortal, and recovering her love for the world. The Temple plans to keep this a secret, for fear of starting a panic among the Faithful. Now... I don't know what to think.

Gavas Drin wrote:[Anxious, but prepared and controlled.] I'm not sure you understand. The Tribunal are Living Gods -- but that doesn't mean you can come see them any time you want. In happier times, the Tribunal appeared before the people, just like us priests. But times have changed, and no one sees the Tribunal any more. So... of course... you could not have found Almalexia and Sotha Sil 'dead'. That's simply... impossible.

Barenziah wrote:[Stares at you thoughtfully.] I believe you are serious. I'm not sure I believe you have killed a living god... though I do think YOU think you have. I doubt you could prove it. And I doubt the priests would believe it... or would admit it, even if it were true. Say nothing about this to anyone. Or... I suppose you can tell who you like. Who would believe you? Fascinating. Simply fascinating. So many possibilities....

King Hlaalu Helseth wrote:[Stares at you doubtfully.] From anyone else, such a statement would be nonsense. And you have no way to prove this statement? I scarcely know what to think. If true, I can't begin to imagine what the social and political consequences would be. But I doubt you'd be very popular among the Dunmer if this were known. My advice is to keep quiet about this. I certainly shall. I have heard nothing whatsoever from you about this. And we have not spoken. Understand?

Fedris Hler wrote:[Puzzled.] You are a foreigner. Many foreigners cannot understand our Living Gods. Are you speaking figuratively? In metaphors? In some... poetic way? Are you a follower of some peculiar Western cult? Please excuse me... but what you say makes no sense at all.

People at the Mournhold Temple of Almalexia wrote:[Smoothly.] You're not well, my child. You don't know what you're saying. You must be mistaken. If you have killed someone, I'm afraid it's a matter for the Ordinators. But of course, no one can kill a Living God. Perhaps if you pray at a shrine, your mind will be cleared.

Members of the Tribunal Temple of the Triune Grace and the ALMSIVI (Blessed Be Their Holy Names) wrote:[Forcefully, threateningly.] You are wrong. You are foolish to say such things. Go away.

Those in the courtyard outside the Temple of Almalexia wrote:[Stares at you in disbelief.] Gods... I think you're serious. Or, at least, you believe what you're saying. You should go to the Temple and tell them this. Surely you don't believe you can kill a Living God? And even if you SAW such a thing, do you believe you can kill a god PERMANENTLY? Good grief. Have you never read 'The 36 Lessons of Vivec'? These are immortal gods you're talking about.

Those in the Manor District of Godsreach in the inner fortress city of Mournhold wrote:You are a foreigner, and one must make allowances. But even a foreigner must know that such jokes are not in good taste.

Dunmer who do not meet the above criteria wrote:[Stares at you in disbelief.] What makes you say such a thing? Are you mad? Go to the Temple and pray at the shrines for your soul. If you cannot be cured, you must be locked away, for your own good, and the good of society.

Others wrote:Nonsense. You don't know what you're talking about.

Sounds a lot like disbelief to me. Sure, they'll believe it eventually. But that doesn't happen in-game and that's the situation we're dealing with.

Saibot · Post by **Saibot** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:49 am

Even if everyone all of the sudden did believe you, it wouldn't be a good thing. I mean seriously what you do to the guy that killed your gods?

presh · Post by **presh** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:19 am

I think we should definitely leave the God things out of TR. Lots of people will probably play TR without doing the main quests of Morrowind and Tribunal, so for many people Almalexia and Sotha Sil will still be alive.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:52 pm

Well, you certainly have a mass of evidence Omicron, and to that evidence I must concede the point. Like you, I think that it would be more lore appropriate if the people of Morrowind accepted the falsehood of the Tribunal, however the fact that the Tribunal has so effectively won the hearts and faith of the dunmer, faith that continues after their deaths and fall from godhood, is fascinating to say the least However, I beleive it would be interesting if the highest members of the Temple, those who already know the truth of the false-divinity of the Tribunal, those who have read the forbidden writings and heard the truth from Vivec himself, knew of the fall of the Tribunal and were attempting to cover it up. Someone must have concocted the story of Alm:

"rumors here say Almalexia is no longer in Mournhold, and she plans to be gone indefinitely. They say she exhausted her body and spirit in the war against Dagoth Ur, but now she plans to travel in disguise among the people, living the life of a mortal, and recovering her love for the world. The Temple plans to keep this a secret, for fear of starting a panic among the Faithful. Now... I don't know what to think."

So who is the they that say this?
In any case, there were parts of my post that did not pertain to the fall of the Tribunal and that I still hold by. I beleive that the Temple will continue to try to isolate the beleifs of the Telvanni, and perhaps secretly fund and construct a temple in Telvanni territory as Presh suggested, but we should keep away from having the Temple make any overt moves to convert the Telvanni without explanation as to the change in tactics.
Anyway, thank you for the correction, I always love a good lore discussion.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:30 pm

Another quote from various indiviuals is:
"the Temple was wrong"

Two importants points:
The Temple opposed the Neravarine prophecy as it would ultimately lead to the destruction of the Tribunal Gods.
By becoming the Nervarine, you expose the Temple's hypocracy of needing Dagoth Ur, in order to survive.

As a player, I ignored the quest to kill Dagoth Ur for two years, so for MY game, the temple lies were not exposed, until very recently.

As quest-makers this leaves you with the following to consider:

A blanket decision on whether TR makes the assumption that all will have defeated Dagoth Ur or;
Write scripts to deal with the possibility that players may not have defeated him and therefore that the Temple remains 'intact'.

I think it will be hard to develop your quests if you don't address this aspect of the storyline, before you start.

Then, once the PC has killed Dagoth Ur, you have the luxury of both possibilites for the Temple: One where people change as a result of the Naravarine prophecy being fulfilled; and the other where it is not accepted. Your conflicts can then develop naturally around this

Not sure how that all fits with the Morag Tong et al.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:42 pm

ACtually there's one and only solution: base quests on player's save aka check if Dagoth Ur was defeated, if Ayem is dead etc. If not - give one quest, if yes - give a slightly modified one. It is hard but more immersive.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:56 pm

It's not entirely correct to quote me as administrator, while at that time I only had been with the project for less than a month and didn't exactly know what we were going to do. However, most of that view still stands, yet not entirely.

In the original game, nobody actually believed you about the Tribunal being dead, save for a few unique NPCs, as Sload/Omicron's list shows. However, this will not be the case in the mod, because it just doesn't make sense and is very annoying for the player. Basically, most die hard Temple supporters will just ignore you and walk away, like the original dialogue. However, people that are less supportive of the Temple will be more inclined to believe you and use the information for their own benefit.

We can clearly duplicate (or just use) Vvardenfell dialogue as Sload suggests, but we can also make it much more interesting and involving by making different factions and races think differently about it. We're here to create Tamriel as Bethesda wanted it, that doesn't mean we have to copy their flaws.

However, since this is Temple discussion and we should stay on topic. Temple followers won't believe that the Tribunal are dead for a generation to come. I also don't see the Temple worshippers going back to Daedra worshipping on a large, organized scale. More likely it'll disolve into dozens and dozens of tiny cults, some of which worshipping the Daedra, but that's beyond the time scope of this project. Within the time that our Temple quests will be, the Temple will still remain a powerful institute that controls a major part of the Dunmer's lifestyle. Although they probably will be weakened by rumours.

First thing of the Temple quests in the entire mainland should be a pilgrimage to Necrom. As there was the pilgrimage on Vvardenfell, the mainland pilgrimage will just take you to the Necrom Temple and demands you to make an offer here. It is, after all, the holiest of the holiest. On top of that, I think a conflict with House Telvanni would fit, but not on the side of Temple expanding. With the fall of the Tribunal gods, though the Temple might not realize it, a large part of their power is broken and the rumours around the Tribunal no longer showing up and even some rumours of them being destroyed will only weaken the Temple further and will especially encourage House Telvanni to expand southwards in the direction of Necrom. That could be a basic outline for the Temple quests for Map 2.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:59 pm

What if you haven't done the main quest yet. The Temple would stil have their power.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:04 pm

True, we have a few options for that.

1. A seperate questline, one pre-mainquest and one post-mainquest (including Tribunal mainquest), which will be a lot of work but quite immersive.

2. Force people to do the mainquest first, explaining that there's other things to do on Vvardenfell and in Almalexia.

3. Do what Stalker says, change the dialogue for pre- or post-mainquest. This will be hard to do but basically is possible and would be less work. This is because the Tribunal are already losing powers before you whack them. It is clearly stated that the Tribunal's powers are waning and Dagoth's power is growing and that soon, the Tribunal won't be able to contain the Blight. I don't think we should do this, though.

4. Drop the idea of the Temple losing power on the whole and going for an easier conflict which isn't dependant on the status of the mainquest. This would be easiest, but perhaps less interesting.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:06 pm

I think that the easiest thing to do would be to make this questline inaccessible until you finish the MQ.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:21 pm

I think that we may have forgotten what we're arguing about exactly. The first point: would the Temple try to bring in the Telvanni? I say yes, and we have things in the mod already that support this.

The second point: this quote:

I think that Map 2 Temple quests should highlight just how far the Temple has fallen especially because Necrom, the holiest Temple sight, is in Map 2. Necrom, once firmly held together by faith in the Tribunal temple, should be coming apart at the seams, the Temple scrambling to maintain peace. I think that the Temple quests should be attempts to repair the damage done to the temple faith and authority. The player could lead the Temple on their new path of embracing ancient velothi traditions and recognizing the Tribunal as saints and great protectors (but not gods). In doing so, the player would have to deal with winning back the trust of the public, restoring faith in the temple, fending off IC missionaries eager to pull in distraught and faithless former Temple members, and dealing with Temple hardliners driven even more extreme by the unmistakable evidence of their gods' non-divinity into rash, even violent, action. Perhaps a once powerful Temple authority figure in Necrom is preaching that the Tribunal did not fall, they infact defeated Dagoth Ur, not the Nerevarine, and this is all a grand test of the people's faith in them (such lunacy has precedence here in the real world). Perhaps this Temple figure, driven mad by grief, disillusionment, and a life of lies is trying to gather outside aid to take Necrom by force and forcefully and brutally reinstate traditional Tribunal teachings. Perhaps the player agrees, and wants to help...Temple should have alot of internal conflict.

First of all, Necrom is very holy, yes. In many of the people's sight is the holiest city. But to the Archcanon and the Alma Rula it is probably on par with Vivec and below Almalexia. It's importance predates the Tribunal, and it was far more holy to the Chimer than it is to the Dunmer.

I think that leading the Temple on "their new path of embracing ancient velothi traditions and recognizing the Tribunal as saints and great protectors (but not as gods)" is a little over what I feel safe about doing. It would be making enormous decisions about lore that will almost definately be answered in Oblivion, which will probably come out before we're even finished making this questline. This leaves us with:

Necrom, once firmly held together by faith in the Tribunal temple, should be coming apart at the seams..

Unrest in Necrom coupled with the Mages' Guild and the Imperial Cult's disturbances would make a fine questline. We don't even need this lack of faith in the Tribunal.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:59 am

I have to agree with you, Omicron, that it may be too big of a lore decision. Also, when I wrote that post, I was in the position that the fall of the Tribunal is known to all. Now, however, I have come to beleive that most Temple faithful will go on being faithful.

"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." -Neil Gaiman

However, I also think that the highest ranking members will be, if not totally aware of the fall of the Tribunal, aware that their power and hold over the Dunmeri people have taken serious blows. In any case, there should be a great deal of political unrest in Necrom, unrest that need not be tied to the fall of thr Tribunal, per se.

Also, I think we have a serious decision to make about the main storyline and when TR takes place in the light of character level and difficulty. If it takes place after the MQ, than the creatures encountered and situations should be suited to level 20+ players (the approx. level upon completion), even higher for completing Tribunal, and even higher for Bloodmoon. Or we could make all situations with leveled rewards, treasure, and monsters. In addition: how powerful will the player be after completing the TR Morrowind quests? Personally, I had a character ligitimately leveled up to lvl 45 by the time I finished bloodmoon. And even beyond TR Morrowind... with the sheer depth of TR, by the time the player gets to High Rock or the Summurset Isles, they would be able to take on Jagar Tharn in their sleep. I mean at lvl 30 the player has killed God-Kings, at lvl 99? If normal High Rock monsters have to be 40 levels above Vivec or Almalexia, Morrowind should have been easily conquered with their pathetic lvl 1 Mudcrabs. I might be dragging up a point that was decided a while back at the beggining of the project, but I felt my concerns at least worth mentioning.

So we have, so far: Necrom is in unrest, and the first Temple quest on the mainland should be a pilgrimage, with maybe more difficult pilgrimages later on as player increases in rank (as with Temple MQ on Vfell was)

PS
Sorry about the slight innacuracy of the quote, Vegor. I wasn't aware you were not a Admin at the time (I wasnt on TR at the time!) =P

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:10 am

I suggest the pilgrimage be about the saints, one shrine for every saint, all around Necrom and the holy lands.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:20 am

That sounds like a solid, lore-friendly idea to me. It would also be a good way to show off some pretty TR scenery!

We will have to thumb through some Temple lore, but if I remember correctly there are still plenty of unused saints. We should also add some misc. shrines of Chimeri saints that fell out of favor with the rise of the Temple. There have to be a few, perhaps Saints who worshipped certain "bad daedra" in the time before the Temple branded daedra "good" and "bad"

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:02 am

If you would learn valor, follow St. Nerevar the Captain, patron of Warriors and Statesmen. Lord Nerevar helped to unite the barbarian Dunmer tribes into a great nation, culminating in his martyrdom when leading the Dunmer to victory against the evil Dwemer and the traitorous House Dagoth in the Battle of Red Mountain.

I think the obvious place for St. Nerevar's shrine is Nerevar's Tomb.

If you would learn daring, follow Saint Veloth the Pilgrim, Patron of Outcasts and Spiritual Seekers. Saint Veloth, prophet and mystic, led the Dunmer out of the decadent home country of the Summerset Isles and into the promised land of Morrowind. Saint Veloth also taught the difference between the Good and Bad Daedra, and won the aid of the Good Daedra for his people while teaching how to carefully negotiate with the Bad Daedra.

No idea about where his shrine could be.

If you would learn generosity, follow Saint Rilms the Barefooted, Patron of Pilgrims and Beggars. Saint Rilms gave away her shoes, then dressed and appeared as a beggar to better acquaint herself with the poor.

Some corner of Necrom where she gave out money, or maybe a home where she lived?

If you would learn self-respect and respect for others, follow Saint Aralor the Penitent, Patron of Tanners and Miners. This foul criminal repented his sins and traveled a circuit of the great pilgrimages on his knees.

Does Necrom have a prison?

If you would learn mercy and its fruits, follow Saint Seryn the Merciful, Patron of Brewers, Bakers, Distillers. This pure virgin of modest aspect could heal all diseases at the price of taking the disease upon herself. Tough-minded and fearless, she took on the burdens of others, and bore those burdens to an honored old age.

Some place in Necrom or the holy lands where she lived.

If you would learn fierce justice, follow Saint Felms the Bold, Patron of Butchers and Fishmongers. This brave warlord slew the Nord invaders and drove them from our lands. He could neither read nor write, receiving inspiration directly from the lips of Almsivi.

A battlefield? Maybe just a statue, the Nords wouldn't've fought near here.

If you would learn pride of race and tribe, follow Saint Roris the Martyr, Patron of Furnishers and Caravaners. Captured by Argonians just before the Arnesian War, Roris proudly refused to renounce the Tribunal faith, and withstood the cruel tortures of Argonian sorcerers. Vengeance and justice for the martyred Saint Roris was the rallying cry of the Arnesian War.

He definately would have a statue in Necrom.

If you would learn the rule of law and justice, follow Saint Olms the Just, Patron of Chandlers and Clerks. Founder of the Ordinators, Saint Olms conceived and articulated the fundamental principles of testing, ordeal, and repentance.

Ordinator headquarters.

If you would learn benevolence, follow Saint Delyn the Wise, Patron of Potters and Glassmakers. Saint Delyn was head of House Indoril, a skilled lawyer, and author of many learned treatises on Tribunal law and custom.

Travel a ways to an Indoril manor where he once lived?

If you would learn the love of peace, follow Saint Meris the Peacemaker, Patron of Farmers and Laborers. As a little girl, Saint Meris showed healing gifts, and trained as a Healer. She ended a long and bloody House War, intervening on the battlefield in her white robe to heal warriors and spellcrafters without regard to faction. The troops of all House adopted white robes as her standard, and refused to shed the blood of their brethren.

Perhaps this very battlefield is in the Holy Lands.

If you would learn reverence, follow Saint Llothis the Pious, Patron of Tailors and Dyers. Contemporary and companion of the Tribunals, and the best-loved Alma Rula of the Tribunal Temple, he formulated the central rituals and principles of the New Temple Faith. Saint Llothis is the symbolic mortal bridge between the gods and the faithful, and the archetypal priest.

And what better place for the shrine to him than the Temple of Necrom?

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:06 am

xflclx wrote:Also, I think we have a serious decision to make about the main storyline and when TR takes place in the light of character level and difficulty. If it takes place after the MQ, than the creatures encountered and situations should be suited to level 20+ players (the approx. level upon completion), even higher for completing Tribunal, and even higher for Bloodmoon. Or we could make all situations with leveled rewards, treasure, and monsters. In addition: how powerful will the player be after completing the TR Morrowind quests? Personally, I had a character ligitimately leveled up to lvl 45 by the time I finished bloodmoon. And even beyond TR Morrowind... with the sheer depth of TR, by the time the player gets to High Rock or the Summurset Isles, they would be able to take on Jagar Tharn in their sleep. I mean at lvl 30 the player has killed God-Kings, at lvl 99? If normal High Rock monsters have to be 40 levels above Vivec or Almalexia, Morrowind should have been easily conquered with their pathetic lvl 1 Mudcrabs. I might be dragging up a point that was decided a while back at the beggining of the project, but I felt my concerns at least worth mentioning.

That's a problem with Morrowind's gameplay. Honestly, I prefer for TR to be a believable world. If the opposition is too weak, then let it be. Few people end the main quests anyway, for most the fun is in beginning again and trying something different.

Going on the mainland as soon as leaving the Census & Excise Office at Seyda Nihyn -- neglecting the Nerevarine prophecies, and making one's own story while Azura simmers in frustration -- is one of the different things someone with TR may want to try.

I know this isn't the road Bethsoft took -- hence, a diseased, starving goblin is stronger, tougher, more dangerous than a Dremora Lord, and a goblin cheftain could probably take on a Dagoth Ur + whole Tribunal coalition all by himself, barehanded. This bugs me to no end. Indeed, if we take the same approach, an Illiac Bay Rat will have one million HP and a min/max damage rating in the thousands.

But TR isn't bound to continue on this approach. I don't think the aim is to make TR an "ÃƒÅ“berFUBU". Balance problems may be addressed with game-adjusting bolt-ons, that wouldn't be part of TR but would be strongly recommended by the TR team, for example... I think giving to hp an upper limit equal to 5 time the Endurance score would be a simple way to keep the game reasonnably challenging after a long while. Another bolt-on possibility is alternate beginnings in different regions -- why should one have to be the Nerevarine if he only wants to play in Skyrim?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:11 am

I think the easiest way to find balance is to have some factions be high level factions. This is how I designed the Map 1 Morag Tong, the player can't even get in if they're bellow level 15, and Map 1's last quest is against a Level 45 Sorcerer (Mistress Rathra, specifically). The Daedric Cults, Ordinators, and Imperial Knights are similarily high level factions.

Saibot · Post by **Saibot** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:46 am

I have completed the main quest in morrowind only once. And now any time I play I don't even start the main quests, I get disinterested too soon. So I just go exploring and maybe do a few misc. quests. If any one else is like me they'll play TR from the very beggining. exploring the world rather than completing the same old quests over and over.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:22 am

I think that starting over and playing through TR would be a great idea, but beginning a new character in every region would not because, well, that voids the TR Main Questline and every Regional Questline.
Concerning Saint shrines, there is actually a Veloth Ancestral Tomb, a quite elaborate one actually, in Vvardenfell, a little bit southeast of the dunmer stronghold Berandas. However, it is no shrine, and whether adding another shrine to Veloth (seperate from the tomb), or moddiying the tomb already on Vvardenfell, is a good idea, I cannot at this point say. I do not even think the Veloth Anscestral Tomb houses the body of Veloth, only his, well, anscesters.
In addition, there are already massive statues of Saint Olms and Saint Delyn in Vivec, however I do feel that a place of importance and symbolism would be better as a shrine than a honking huge statue atop a Canton, so best to have their shrines seperate. Also, Omicron, alot of your suggestions point at or near to Necrom. For the pilgrimages to be actual pilgrimages, and not "walks", it would be best to have the shrines spread out, with maybe 3 shrines maximum (as there are in Vivec) in Necrom.

Saibot · Post by **Saibot** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:28 am

Starting a new game for every region is a bad idea. But starting one specifically for TR is what I forsee most people doing.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:30 am

Considering that most people will have to reinstall TES III to play, I think that it is.