Daedra vs Atronach discussion

[cwandell]

Ok there seems to be 2 oppinions on this forum as to what exactly an Atronach is. I'm going to try to set this straight hopefully people will agree with me, but I might be wrong, i'm going off impressions i got from Daggerfall.

A Frost Daedra is a creature native to the Oblivion, in Daggerfall/Battlespire it looked like a humanoid figure of frost with a longsword, and in platemail usually with a sheild.

A Fire Daedra is the opposite of a Frost Daedra, a burning creature native to Oblivion that looks exactly like a frost Daedra except made of fire.

A Frost Atronach or as they were previously known Ice Atronach, seems to be judging by what was said in Daggerfall, a magical construct similar to a golem, crafted by wizards, mages and sorcerors.

A Fire Atronach is the same as a Frost Atronach only created out of ash and fire.

A Flesh Atronach is a golem crafted out of body parts and flesh, and seems to be decaying judging by the reaction you get when your hit by one.

An Iron Atronach is your traditional golem, a being crafted out of metal that is humanoid in shape.

Air Atronach's never made it into the game, so weren't referenced, they might be what Storm Atronach's are?

just my comments what do you think?

[Arthmodeus]

Good observations. I always thought that the atronaches were weaker versions of their counterparts.

I did conceptual art for the Fire and Frost Daedra if anyone is interested.

[cwandell]

prehaps but the appearance of the two ex. (frost Daedra, Ice Atronach) is very different, the Frost Daedra appears almost as a humanoid cloud or mist of particles, whereas the Atronach appears more like a solid being. to me this always suggested that they were not related. but you could be correct.

[El Scumbago]

This is a very interesting thought.
Actually, it makes me conclude that Bethesda devs were intended to model some golems but in their effort to make the game feel more 'original', they avoided the characterization (is this a word?) 'golem' and replaced it with 'atronach', so that there wouldn't be too many players comparing MW's golems with D&D or whichever else's golems.

Do you want to make a point with these conclusions?

Also, try not to make many posts, just express your thoughts using the least number of posts possible.
It's hard, I know

[Gez]

From [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/bestiary/index.shtml]TIL[/url]:

"Certain Daedric summonings are more often encountered on Vvardenfell. Good Daedra are the Daedra associated with Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala -- the Winged Twilight and the Hunger. Bad Daedra are associated with Mehrunes Dagon, Malacath, Sheogorath, and Molag Bal. Atronachs are unaligned Daedra of the elemental planes. But don't judge a summoning by its patron. The summoner commands a summoning, and, good or bad, nice or nasty, they must do the summoner's bidding." Smokey Morth and Vala Catraso's Dialogues

Of course, this may be just erroneous beliefs from said NPCs, but this dialogue is interesting in that it contradicts Daggerfall lore (by giving a different definition of Atronach) and that it claims the existence of elemental planes, which are never alluded to otherwise AFAIK. (Of course these planes could just be elemental-themed bubble worlds in the vast seas of Oblivion).

Also interesting to note, while Arena had Golems and Daggerfall had Atronach, Daggerfall's lore still talk about Golems, and make them a separate category from Atronachs. From one of the anonymous letters you got in the DF main quest:

Numidium was Tiber Septim's secret weapon in his bid for supreme power: a thousand foot tall automaton, a golem or an atronach of sorts powered by a gem called the Mantella.

See also the book "On Lycanthropy" which speaks about creatures that are not harmed by mundane weapons, citing golems and atronachs as examples.

So, here we have five categories of automatons.

• Golems,
• Atronachs,
• Dwemer Centurions,
• Sotha Sil's Fabricants,
• And divine constructs, like Numidium was and what Akulakhan would have been.

Now, here comes the question: what makes them what they are? If both golems and atronachs are created in the same way by the same people, why are they considered different?

Here's what I propose, the difference in categorization is caused by differences in their conception, notably their source of power.

Golems are raw material animated through complexe magickal process.

Atronach are the same, but animated thanks to soul magic -- much like how enchanting items is done in Morrowind. Presumably, mages prey on the souls of unaligned daedra to power their constructs. Judging from Daggerfall's magic item creation, were bound souls were optional, making an Atronach is easier than making a Golem; however it necessitates to hunt daedra.

As far as I know about Centurions, they are powered by potent thigns or devices hidden deep in Dwemer lands, as it is known that they stop working when brought far from their original place and reanimate again once they're moved back within range. Known locations with functional Centurions include the whole island of Vvardenfell (where the "device" may have the corpse of Lorkhan), the Stros M'Kai island (where the device was probably the steam grid network), and the ruins of Bamz-Amschend under Almalexia's city (where the device is probably the same that powers the climate-contral machine).

I won't advance any hypothesis as to what could have powered the biomechanical creation of Morrowind's Mystery. Presumably, their conception required a mind elevated to godhood and weathered by centuries upon centuries of contemplating magickal mysteries in utter isolation.

Finally, we already know that the Numidium was powered by the Mantella, aka Mantellan Heart, which was probably just an alias or aspect or fragment or conduit or whatever of the Heart of Lorkhan; and the Akulakhan was built directly around said Heart of Lorkhan.

[cwandell]

actually the gem in Daggerfall that would power Numidium, contained the soul of the Underking, it was the soulgem that had captured his soul long ago, although somehow his body survived the process. Two of the endings involved the gem being depleted of its power, one was the ascension of the King of Worms, and the other was returning the soul to its original owner, but I like what your thinking Gez. I had not considered that the difference might be how the automation was given the power to move.