Map 2 Temple discussion

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:33 am

You can still extract and keep your gamesaves before reinstalling TES3. Just saying. I still think a new TR save would be the best idea. And if that is the case, we need to make some progession of difficulty from region to region, or do we just have the player wander and do factions by faction difficulty? In that case, my personal favorite because it lets the player wander, we should have faction difficulty progession. And since this thread is continuing, and updated comments on an earlier post will certainly be missed, here they are

:

Me Said
there are already massive statues of Saint Olms and Saint Delyn in Vivec, however I do feel that a place of importance and symbolism would be better as a shrine than a honking huge statue atop a Canton, so best to have their shrines seperate. Also, Omicron, alot of your suggestions point at or near to Necrom. For the pilgrimages to be actual pilgrimages, and not "walks", it would be best to have the shrines spread out, with maybe 3 shrines maximum (as there are in Vivec) in Necrom.

I also still hold to my resistance to having the Temple try and draw in the Telvanni. They have remained isolated, willingly, for centuries? Why change that now? In any case, for the shift in policy, there needs to be a good, lore-freindly reason. Perhaps, now that Dagoth Ur is defeated, the Temple has more freed resources. Wait, with a new save...D'OH! Dagoth Ur is still alive...

Saibot · Post by **Saibot** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:40 am

I think the pilgramage idea is great, but as I said before. Something like this NEEDS to be wide spread. I just can't see a way to confine something as large as the Tribunal Temple to map by map quest-lines.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:46 am

Well, the Temple will be on each map, just like most factions. I'm not sure what you mean.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:46 am

How about having regional pilgrimages for each Map's Temple questline?

Saibot · Post by **Saibot** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:54 am

I don't know if I can explain it right but, basicly what I mean is, I don't think we should have seperate Temple quest-lines on each map, but that they should overlap. So, map two temple quest will involve ofcourse map 2, but also parts of the surrounding maps. Map 3 temple quests will encompass map 3 and parts of the surrounding maps, and so on. It might be a stupid idea but thats my opinion.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:12 am

Well, that's not big a deal, really. The area surrounding Map 2 and Map 2 aren't noticably different. Though I have to admit, maybe moving some places, like Salen Vulgate and the Necrom Lighthouse, to Map 2 wouldn't be a bad idea.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:31 am

Right now we have: Map 2 Temple questline should involve unrest in Necrom, and there should be pilgrimages to local holy sites.
We have the basics, so let's go from there. I am pouring over a TG questline at the moment. Any submissions for a draft of a Temple questline, or some ideas for individual quests or guild conflicts?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:27 am

guild conflicts?

All this talk of unrest.

Once a player (the PC) has fulfilled the Neravarine prophecy, then I would expect the Dunmer population to split into two opposing camps:
Those who continue to worship the Tribunal
Those who return to Daedra worship

I think there is a lot of conflict potential there.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:34 pm

Is there a temple anywhere else in Map 2 other than Necrom? Since Necrom is the big daddy of temples in Morrowind, it serves to say that the temple here would be restricted to only those who have proven themselves elsewhere. That isn't to say there couldn't be a minor questline, but the big picture needs to be looked at here.

My opinion:
- There should be two tiers to the Temple in Necrom. One is open to all new recruits. The second only accepts people who have shown exceptional dedication elsewhere.
- The first tier should work on the menial, less important things. That is: finding, escorting and rescuing missing pilgrims; minor shrine pilgrimages; random acts of kindness; find-and-fetch quests; etc.
- The second tier looks at the big picture with really hard and/or dangerous quests: Mages Guild necromancy (the Telvanni wouldn't be stupid enough to try anywhere near Necrom); eradicating the IC or whatnot; finding and punishing heretics; temple emissaries; etc.

Thoughts?

presh · Post by **presh** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:51 pm

I disagree. The leadership of the Temple is aware of the disappearance of Almalexia, and Vivec instructs them to begin worshipping the Tribunal as living Saints and steer the dunmer back towards more traditional worship. This does not imply a conflict at all, in fact people turn to religion in times of uncertainty. I would expect the Temple to continue to be the dominant faith.

The only conflict I could see regarding this would be a power struggle with the Temple as the worship shifts away from the Tribunal. But with the forces that the leadership of the Temple command, I imagine it wouldn't be anything the Temple couldn't handle.

Would the great schism have occurred in 1054 if the Pope had had a legion of Ordinators? Still this is just a tangent. The Temple is too monolithic, unified and powerful to split.

And if the population did actively move towards Daedra worship I think the Temple would be at the front of this movement, still safeguarding the spirituality of the dunmer.

EDIT - I disagree with Dungho, sorry, was a bit slow typing the post. I do agree that having to layers of Temple could be very effective.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:01 pm

Well not necessarily. Something like this could cause it to split into two religeons, one believeing you were Nerevar reborn and one believing you were not. Just think about Judaism and Christianity.

presh · Post by **presh** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:08 pm

Good point, but I think the conditions are different enough to preclude this from happening. The Temple seems much more unified than Judaism, which was split into many competing groups, all of which were subject to persecution and were occupied.

The Tribunal Temple has a monopoly over worship, and it doesn't seem like there are many dissenters. The dissident priests being an example of this. But the dissident preists are the major split, and they seem to be a very small force. Not only that, but the temple is preparing to fold them back in after the Neverarine.

So I think it is unlikely that a split of this nature will occur either.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:01 pm

It was my beleif that we already handled the issue of the Nerevarine prophecies and the future of the temple further up in this post. The conclusion(including arguments from Vegor, Nomadic1, Omicron, and myself) I saw us coming to is that the Temple will maintain a hold over the Dunmeri people, the masses beleiving that Almalexia has gone among the people to pray and live as a mortal in order to regain the love of her people (or something along those lines where Alm is conveniently unavailable). And remember, Sotha Sil had sealed himself inside his Clockwork City for decades before his death, and his absence as a public figure is the norm. It will take a generation or so of slow but powerful change for the Dunmeri people to come to realize the truth of the Tribunal, something that extends beyond the scope of TR. For the time being, Temple quests are to remain fairly normal, with perhaps only hints of trouble or dissent. The only ones who know anything about the truth of the Tribunal are the highest priests, and they are not going to jeopordize their power by declaring the Tribunal false gods. And remember, every aspect of the culture, politics, and economy of Morrowind is tied up in the Tribunal, and to suddenly remove the Tribunal would be disasterous. The highest priests, those who did not want to keep the truth a secret from the people, would most likely work towards slow, long-term change on a scale beyond the scope of TR.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:50 pm

Here's one thing I'd like to see from the Temple:

They get a Temple built somewhere, Marog or Tel Muthada. That would rock.

Oh, and it'd also rock if the IC manages to destroy the N-word Temple and replace it with a cult building, otherwise they're already in charge of the city.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:34 pm

My last response was to the question:

Any submissions for a draft of a Temple questline, or some ideas for individual quests or guild conflicts?

The point I was trying to make is that I would see a backlash to the Temple at some point, on some level and that this "unrest" could be used as a basis for quests.
Maybe that quest could be to disperse any cult developing around the appearance of the Neravarine?
Maybe quelling the N. Cult could be part of the second-tier of Necrom quests suggested by Nomadic1?
Sload suggested a Temple-building quest. Maybe the N cult are building their own temple and a quest could be developed to stop the building being started or completed?
They're all just suggestions.

xflclx · Post by **xflclx** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:16 pm

I like your idea, however the nerevarine cult is, in my opinion, something that we should leave to the Nerevarine MQ. I do not think that TR should pick up any questlines involving the nerevarine cult and its future after te MQ, as that is lore that bethesda will almost certainly settle in Oblivion. Anyway, very few TR characters will have completed the MQ, most will be fresh. Anyway, that is just my opinion
Going away for the weekend!

!! See you all monday

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:10 pm

AFAIK the nerevarine cult is confined to the Ashlands.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:41 pm

Is someone working on this or should I just assign the whole questline to one person?

presh · Post by **presh** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:20 am

I don't think anybody is working on it. At least, nobody has said they are.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:06 pm

OK, if someone wants to make this guildline himself step forward, or I will do it myself...

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:16 pm

The problem is no one is really sure on where to take the Temple IMO. There are two temples I know of: one in Neommaeor and one in Necrom. IMO the Necrom questline would be restricted solely to high-ranking PCs, whereas the Neommaeor questline would be for anybody.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:28 pm

Well we could make the Necrom bit the final thing once the player has completed all the other temples.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:36 pm

That doesn't sound as that bad idea. Should we postpone map 2 Necrom Temple quests until all maps are finished and concentrate on Neommaneor?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:40 pm

Sounds fair enough to me. We will need a few pilgrimages...ill go trawl some books in TIL and see if i can find the sites of any 'miracles'

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:44 pm

Your speed of deciding things is just unbelievable, Jale

Give chance to other members to articulate their opinion on this first.

EDIT: On the other hand, few pilgrimages for Neommaenor would be OK.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:52 pm

Just like to get a start on things

In the 3rd lesson of vivec the dwemer take the egg-vivec and study him in a glass jar. There could be a glass egg on a pedastle just inside Kemel-Ze as homage to this.

In the 5th lesson of vivec the simulacrum (ie Dwemer Robot) carrying him to the lands of Indoril stops working due to poor construction. 80 days later a caravan picks it up...Nerevar's caravan. This shrine could be on a roadside near the border of the Indoril lands.

The 7th lesson could be a pilgrimage in itself. Its all about the legions of Mehrunes Dagon. First the player would have to talk to 'the Duke of Scamps' (remember how they had dremora in two of the pilgramages) and he will tell you of the 7 pennants. Then you must go the the shrines of each pennant and place an offering.

'He saw the first pennant, which commanded a legion of grim warriors who could die at least twice.'
-Offering of Bonemeal. Skeleton warriors are grim and have died twice by the time you are done with them

'He saw the second pennant, which commanded a legion of winged bulls and the emperor of color that rode upon each.'
-

'He saw the third pennant, which commanded a legion of inverted gorgons, great snakes whose scales were the faces of men.'
-Slaughterfish scales. By giving them scales you can retrieve the men (its all very obscure...)

'He saw the fourth pennant, which commanded a legion of double-crossed lovers.'
-Telvanni Bug Musk. Using that is like tricking someone to love you.

'He saw the fifth pennant, which commanded a legion of jumping wounds looking to hop onto a victim.'
-Potion of Cure Blight. The jumping wounds sound like disease to me.

'He saw the sixth pennant, which commanded a legion of abridged planets.'
-This is like a Mars Volta lyric...perhaps some ore of some discription...you could consider a rock an abriged planet...

'He saw the seventh pennant, which commanded a legion of armored winning moves.'
-A chitin cuirass.

The 26th Sermon takes place in the lands of the Telvanni. Its about Vivec freeing a lot of slaves and killing a Telvanni lord. There could be a shrine to this.
(Ill add more via edits as I find them)

presh · Post by **presh** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:49 pm

wow, looks really cool. I assume there will be a few non-pilgrimage tasks also? Rescuing St Delyn's belt from cultists, that kind of thing?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:34 pm

Of course...this is just two pilgramages...3 sites onone pilgramage (Kemel-Ze, Telvanni Town somewhere, Roadside near Indoril Border) and then the pilgramage of the 7 pennants.

presh · Post by **presh** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:50 pm

How many quests are we looking at for the small Temple?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:21 pm

I think it should still be the same length as any normal one but the quests shouldnt be too extravagant...no saving the world or taking down a massive organisation, just pilgrimages, feeding the hungry etc

Trick is making that interesting.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:31 am

I like the idea of leaving Necrom for last. It's the granddaddy of all Temples.

Wow, the pilgrimage of the seven penants sounds excellent. And since it takes place in Telvanni lands, we could add the shrines across the entirety of Maps 1 and 2 almost. My thoughts:
- In the 3rd lesson of vivec the dwemer take the egg-vivec and study him in a glass jar. There could be a glass egg on a pedastle just inside Kemel-Ze as homage to this.
I don't reckon this is a good one. Vivec's birth is very metaphorical, and the glass jar could be anything from a test tube to a giant vat. It could even have been a surrogate mother for all we know.

-In the 5th lesson of vivec the simulacrum (ie Dwemer Robot) carrying him to the lands of Indoril stops working due to poor construction. 80 days later a caravan picks it up...Nerevar's caravan. This shrine could be on a roadside near the border of the Indoril lands.
Good shrine quest, poor location though. I always imagined the caravan travelled from Map 4 or 6 into Map 3, but will change my mind if the sermons mention a direction or location.

-'He saw the first pennant, which commanded a legion of grim warriors who could die at least twice.'
-Offering of Bonemeal. Skeleton warriors are grim and have died twice by the time you are done with them
Great

'He saw the second pennant, which commanded a legion of winged bulls and the emperor of color that rode upon each.'
A tricky one. Could be something exceptionally colourful, a levitation potion, or even a TR made bull hide.

'He saw the third pennant, which commanded a legion of inverted gorgons, great snakes whose scales were the faces of men.'
-Slaughterfish scales. By giving them scales you can retrieve the men (its all very obscure...)
Hmmm... Slaughterfish are fish, not snakes or inverted gorgons. And the Dunmer would not be interested in retrieving men (as opposed to mer). Alternatives could include a potion of Poison (slay it by its' own means).

'He saw the fourth pennant, which commanded a legion of double-crossed lovers.'
-Telvanni Bug Musk. Using that is like tricking someone to love you
Nice

'He saw the fifth pennant, which commanded a legion of jumping wounds looking to hop onto a victim.'
-Potion of Cure Blight. The jumping wounds sound like disease to me.
Cure Disease would be more appropriate IMO, since Blight is more related to Dagoth Ur than the Telvanni or anything else for that matter. IIRC, there is also no blight on the mainland.

'He saw the sixth pennant, which commanded a legion of abridged planets.'
This is like a Mars Volta lyric...perhaps some ore of some discription...you could consider a rock an abriged planet...
Raw Ebony? It's called the crystallised blood of the Aedra (Aedra are the planets, and they made Nirn), has some magical properties, and its' a mineral.

'He saw the seventh pennant, which commanded a legion of armored winning moves.'
-A chitin cuirass
Sweet

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:54 am

Winged bull is easy. It's a bull netch. Thus netch leather.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:55 am

Oh yeah!

I feel stupid :Lol:

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:10 am

So the only one we are sort of stuck on are the inverted gorgons...

What about something like a mirror? A steel shield? Thats how the Gorgon Medusa was defeated in Greek Myth and it would be a nod to that.

The bit in the glass jar with vivec was after the dwemer constructs tore apart his mother to retrieve the egg. I thought Kemel-Ze because thats the largest Dwemer place anywhere in Morrowind (well Bamz-Aschend is also huge but thats under the destitation of Vivec so we cant really have it there). Then if you are going from Kemel-Ze to Mournhold then you would be passing through map 2

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:33 am

Now that I think about it, a good pilgrimage one day would be the caravan route following Lord Vivec. But that would have to wait until Map 3 under all conditions since that is where it would have to end.

I think I cracked the code of the third pennant: Akaviri Snake-Vampires! They are reverse gorgons in a way, being vampires, having snake bodies, and human faces. So the third pennant was an band of Akaviri mercenaries. It would make sense. So the offering would be Akaviri: Steel Wakizashi (sp?), Katana or Dai-Katana. I personally lean to either of the former, since the Dai-Katana is almost a weapon to be entirely avoided if possible because the name is wrong, and it is overly large and expensive.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:52 am

Good idea...when i heard it I did think of the Tseci but it didnt really click.

I reckon the first pilgrimage to get into the temple could be the path of Vivec...its pretty good really. You go all over, from a Netch-hunters shack to dwemer ruins to caravan routes to the capital city...

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:18 am

Where did you get that the name "Dai-Katana" is wrong from Tamrielic point of view ?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:21 am

Well its best to stick to katana anyway since they are probably more common, cheaper and weigh less.

We might need a Daedric flag for the shrines though

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:51 am

Not from a Tamrielic POV, but from a real world PoV.

It should be Oo-Katana or Dai-______, but BS copied a D&D mistake. But the point is irrelevant since Katanas or Wakizashis would be better.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:33 pm

This is recognized "dog ate" weaseling from Bethesda.
The excuse is that it isn't a Japanese word, but an Akaviri word, and if it and others (tanto, wakizashi, etc.) look japanese, it's only coincidental.

http://til.gamingsource.net/dogate/es_weaseling.shtml

You'll notice that this error was also made by Ion Storm when they released John Romero's Daikatana game. Of course, everybody will agree this was very minor compared to the massive error of releasing said game in the first place.