The Worm King

[Colostriph]

I opened this thread as a question. Who is the Worm King? I've been piking at lore, and he seems to have something to do with undead/necromancy. This intrigues me. Can someone aid me on the topic? It would be very well appreciated.

[Vernon]

I think it is actually the King of Worms, and the only thing I can add to what you know already is that the Sload necromancers worship/idolise him.

Erm, if he is a mortal/inhabitant of the mortal plane I don't think he is an inhabitant of Tamriel.

Lore:

To whom the Numidium is given, is still a big mystery, but the rumor says that six Numidium are seen in six different places at once, each one carving out a different mortal's destiny. The strange phenomenon later can be seen as the High Rock province is unified no more; the Orcs of Orsinium have been acknowledge by the Septim’s Dynasty as Imperial Citizens; some rumor says that the Sloads of the coral kingdoms of Thras, worship a new God of Worms; the Underking gets his long-missing heart, and he dies a mortal death giving him the peace that he desires. The confusing event is known as "Warp in the West". "Among the most significant results of the Second Numidian Effect are the foundation of the orc city-state Nova Orsinium; the transfiguration and apotheosis of Mannimarco, King of Worms; and the return of Zurin Arctus, the Underking, to the affairs of men." - from Niso's LIVES OF THE EMPERORS

[Colostriph]

Thank you Vernon. Inew the sload part just not that they came from a different Continent. I read, from Arkay the enemy, that he was also once a man, and now he`s a god? I am interested on how he became a god. Is he some sort of undead god/creature?

[Vernon]

[Rian]

inside the urshilaku burial is an area called "unstable burial" or something like that. inside this chamber is an undead skeleton called "worm lord".

could this skeleton be related someway to mannimarco or the underking?

perhaps an underling in a sort of undead hierarchy?

like: skeleton->lich->worm lord->worm god/king?

rather interesting is it not?

[Lord_Gallant]

I have my doubts about that theory, personally. Mannimarco was a human necromancer before he was made a god through the power of the Totem. So if such a heirarchy existed he certainly didn't follow it. I don't think that this skeleton or the dunmer guarding the Bow of Shadows (the Worm King or some such) has anything to do with the Mannimarco. However, it may very well be a title within the Necromancer's guild, which makes that dunmer the "King of Worms" in Morrowind (or just Vvardenfell). Unfortunately, I don't think there is enough lore surrounding the Necromancer's guild to make this assumption with a surety, but this is where my money is.

[Dexter]

I think that the undead and necromancers fancy titles that have to do with worms and maggots. For example, there is a Dunmer necromancer in the Venim ancestral tomb named Goris the Maggot King. And why not? Worms and maggots will gather to a corpse and feed off the flesh, turning it into a skeleton. They are the eaters of the dead, something I'm sure that necromancers think is very cool.

[Colostriph]

As is mine. This makes me think of the Lich thread I read the other day. You mentioned:

Skeleton, then lich, then worm lord, then King of worms.

Could this be the metamorphosis? It is true that all liches desire power, and I'm all for the idea, but are skelotons not made by necromancy themselves? Many skeletons don't want to be raised, yet they are. But perhaps liches are created through a skeleton's desire for power.

Garriath mentioned it being a curse of the Aedra. How can this be if Aedra stand for constancy? Perhaps the Aedra had something to do with it but infact did not turn a mortal directly into a lich. Perhaps they killed them, and perhaps a necromancer picked them up, and turned them into a skeleton. But this is also contradictive since Arkay, one of the eight divines, is totally against the undead. So would his curse not be to protect the corpse? And further more the curse of being a lich was indeed not used for punishment by the Aedra?

Arkay, however, perhaps wasn't actually changing you when he cursed you with lichdom, but rather showing who you really are. But this is also wrong (in some ways) because why would he want more undead to pile up and attack his temples? The entire thing confuses me.

@Lord Gallant, you mentionned a "Necromancer's Guild". What where you talking about? I am greatly intrigued. You also mentionned the King of Worms having a Totem. What exactly was it?

I really have a mixed opinion in this discussion. And I'm a neutral if there is any lore argument. I'm just wondering how this is all going to come out, and what lore we'll get from it.

[Lord_Gallant]

The King of Worms was the head of the unjoinable Necromancer's Guild in the Iliac Bay area in TES: 2 Daggerfall. At the end of the game, you are given a number of choices as to who to give the Totem of Tiber Septim, a small infant-looking item which was capable of channeling the powers of the Mantella Crux, the heart of the Numidium giant. In a mysterious temporal anomaly event, the totem was given to all the six (I think) choices at once, one of which was the King of Worms, Mannimarco, who then used its power to become the God of Worms. This event also brought about the Orc nation of Orsinium and the final rest of the Underking. Since the Necromancer's guild is more widespread than just the Iliac Bay, I think it is possible that "King of Worms" and "Maggot King" are ranks or titles given in the Necromancer's guild, and that the guy you find in the tomb in the Grazelands is a high-standing member. That last bit was just speculation, however.

[Colostriph]

Heh, that's just proof that there is a necromancer's guild. I knew it. Do you think it could be joinable in TR? As you suggested, the maggot king is in the Grazelands. Also, the worm lord near urshilaku. If these where high standing members of a guild, would they not have sort of other members around them? Just a thought.

[Vernon]

The King of Worms was the head of the unjoinable Necromancer's Guild in the Iliac Bay area in TES: 2 Daggerfall. At the end of the game, you are given a number of choices as to who to give the Totem of Tiber Septim, a small infant-looking item which was capable of channeling the powers of the Mantella Crux, the heart of the Numidium giant. In a mysterious temporal anomaly event, the totem was given to all the six (I think) choices at once, one of which was the King of Worms, Mannimarco, who then used its power to become the God of Worms. This event also brought about the Orc nation of Orsinium and the final rest of the Underking. Since the Necromancer's guild is more widespread than just the Iliac Bay, I think it is possible that "King of Worms" and "Maggot King" are ranks or titles given in the Necromancer's guild, and that the guy you find in the tomb in the Grazelands is a high-standing member. That last bit was just speculation, however.

So (following said speculation a touch) Mannimarco went from the rank of King of Worms to being an actual God of Worms?

Colostriph, necromancers would not be the most sociable of people/creatures would they?

[Colostriph]

I must say that in morrowind (Vvardenfell at least) they aren't really. And even if this faction where on Vvardenfell, I'd think that they'd be working with other undead (Vampires) but as we know, the three vampire clans despise one and other making any alliance impossible.

But this guild could have wanted a presence in Vvardenfell as an attempt to unite the three clans, which doesn't seem like it's working. The fact still remains that, even though necromancers are isolated, it doesn't mean they all are. There are cults, which perhaps worship the god of worms Mannimarco. And in "Arkay the Enemy" he does say, and I quote:

"Let all the nations of dead carry my banner and my banner alone."

That leads me to believe that he wants to unite the undead into some huge army. But as always, not everyone are believers. He also states:

"Send missionaries to the unbound dead, to the Vampires and the Liches."

So I'm guessing that he wants to unite all undead under his banner and have them at his power. The texts that I've read on him don't go nescesseraly well with the run in the mill necromancer:

"Most Necromancers are fools and weaklings. Fodder for the witchhunters."

Clearly he is speaking to the newbies. He seems to be talking about the sload in the line after:

"But you, my servants, you are among the chosen. In the days to come, few will dare to stand against your might."

He doesn't state it directly, and he may also be talking to all his worshippors but that was just my guess.

This next one gives the impression that he has friends in high places in the living cities:

"To the Scholars: Humiliate the priests of Arkay. Reveal the primitive burial customs to be mere superstition. Befriend kings with honeyed words and bind them to your will. Look to my children in Cyrodiil for guidance."

Perhaps there are powerful noblemen that are close to the Emperor and worship him secretively? Not sure but this one seems to be indicating the necromancers as "priests":

"To the Priests: Use your servants sparingly, let none be seen by the living. Let the memories of the undead waste away from the people."

This part peaked my interests. What do you suppose he's pointing at?:

"To the Hidden: Wait, as always, in the darkness."

Who are the "Hidden"? Is he refering to creatures like the maggot king or the worm lord?

Finnaly, the last paragraph where he plans his invasion on the cults of the Aedra Arkay:

"For soon we shall strike. The Temples of Arkay will be torn stone from stone. The blood of his priests will sate our thirst; their bones will rise as our servants. The name Arkay will be stuck from the records. Only I shall hold sway over life and death. Only one name shall be whispered in fear. The name of your lord and master."

And with that I wait with answers. To discover more lore, we often have to disect existing pieces.

[Rian]

i assumed that guilds generally consisted of people, not undead skeleton's such as the one in the urshilaku burial site, unless this skeleton was a member of the guild several hundred years ago.

or perhaps elders of the necromancers guild become reclusive due to thier appearance, and shut themselves away in tombs to practice their arts where there is an abundance of test subjects?

[Colostriph]

i assumed that guilds generally consisted of people, not undead skeleton's such as the one in the urshilaku burial site, unless this skeleton was a member of the guild several hundred years ago.

Hm? I don't think so. Why would he say that most necromancers are weak and fodd for the witch hunters? And why would he want it that all undead be joined under his banner? The content of the cult seems to be mixed, between actual undead and living beings.

or perhaps elders of the necromancers guild become reclusive due to thier appearance, and shut themselves away in tombs to practice their arts where there is an abundance of test subjects?

Wouldn't Necromancers under the King of Worms banner be proud to be undead? There could be exceptions however. But creatures that strong, or "elder necromancers" would seem to be proud of being undead. Maybe not proud but they'd be something.

[Rian]

i don't doubt that their proud to be undead, within their own guild. but they can't very well go walking around tamriel and chatting with the populace can they? and there's less cahnce of them being caught and killed if they go and hide in a deep tomb like the astral burial, and then there's the abundance of test subjects...

[Vegor]

"To the Hidden: Wait, as always, in the darkness."

Who are the "Hidden"? Is he refering to creatures like the maggot king or the worm lord?

Vampires, I assume.

[Colostriph]

Ya, and I agree. It was just at the part when you said that it was primeraly made of living people (which it is perhaps, this is a guess, 70%undead and 30%living). Test subjects, however, can often run low. They'd have to have some sort of living servant or necromancer go out and get some more.

But as I said before, in Arkay The Enemy, he states:

"Send missionaries to the unbound dead, to the Vampires and the Liches."

So I'm guessing that if there was a guild presence in vvardenfell, they'd be trying to unite all the vampire clans and other such. At least that would be a very important thing (if they where in Vvardenfell)

[Rian]

that would be a very important thing. i think the only thing that has kept the vampires from becoming a true danger is the fact that their always fighting each other, as you can see if you do any of their quests. i think that there are a lot more vampires in vvardenfell than the general populace realises. but if the necromancers guild was able to unite the clans, they would definately be a force to be reckoned with

[Dexter]

Uh, the thing that keeps vampires from becoming a real threat is the fact that they can't travel in the sunlight. And the fact that the Legion and Temple would put forth vast sums of resources to see each and every one of them destroyed. Although the vampires may be superior than their living counterparts in terms of skills and abilities, they are vastly outnumbered by organizations that are far better supplied.

i think that there are a lot more vampires in vvardenfell than the general populace realises.

According to the editor, there are far fewer than the population realises.

[Rian]

yeah, but if you do the ratio mathematics. you figure out that theres somewhere in the area of 1000-2000 vampires on vvardenfell. not alot, but still enought to pose a decent threat if the necromancers guild united them.

[Dexter]

The problem is that, in Morrowind, necromancers are hunted down like dogs. In other provinces, they are tolerated (although still regarded as subhuman). However, as you can see in the editor, there are a handful of necromancers in the game. On Vvardenfell, there are two (I believe). There are a further three or four in Solstheim.
So I can scarsely believe that any necromancer guild has a presence in Morrowind.

[Rian]

you make an excellent point. but how come the necromancers are tolerated in the other provinces, while liches and vampires are hunted down like there's no tommorrow? it's a little odd.

[Stalker]

Because in Morrowind necromancy is only Temple's work. So don't touch my corpse ! I'm going to raise it to guard that tomb.

[Rian]

hey, maybie the temple is really made up of necromancers. and the reason they want you to hunt down the others is because the others refused to join a currupt, evil, controlling, religion!

[Garriath]

hey, maybie the temple is really made up of necromancers. and the reason they want you to hunt down the others is because the others refused to join a currupt, evil, controlling, religion!

Hey, maybe Uriel Septim is really a verminous fabricant that was taught the common tongue by a falmer living in the core of Red Mountain.

[Rian]

i was actually thinking of something, not being saracstic, garriath.

[Garriath]

Edited on second thought. Appologies, rian.

[Dexter]

you make an excellent point. but how come the necromancers are tolerated in the other provinces, while liches and vampires are hunted down like there's no tommorrow? it's a little odd.

The religious practices in Morrowind, one of which is Ancestor worship, are in stark contrast to necromancy. While ancestor worship is based around reverance for the dead, and very specific burial customs and tomb upkeep practices, necromancy is the polar oppisite. The two practices grate upon each other. Therefore, in Morrowind, necromancers are essentially seen as a threat to the ancestors of the Dunmer, and are hunted down as such.
In other provinces, they are seen as people with eccentric views. While necromancy isn't seen as particularly glamorous, it isn't sacreligious. Vampires and liches, however, are not people. They are undead abominations that actively seek to harm the living. All that necromancers do is mess with the dead. When a necromancer uses the dead to harm the living, he is hunted down and killed. But not all necromancers do that, so necromancy itself is not illegal.

[Colostriph]

But what you thought of is completely impossible. Necromancers ruling the temple? I can imgin Dres being ruled by a vampire, but The Temple? The Tribunal Temple? How one earth did you come up with that? You have quite an imagination.

Anyhow, only two necromancers on vvardenfell? Um... Perhaps only two of the class? I`ve seen a lot of necromancers that, well, didn`t have the class. And necromancers are, indeed, hunted like dogs. Temple, legion, hell, even the mage`s guild sometimes crosses paths with them (once or twice). One thing though. Rian did bring up some what of a point when he said that if they where united, they`d be much more of a threat. But still not big enough. Perhaps if they were more keen on re-producing and spreading the curse, perhaps then they`d be dangerous. And Mannimarco does say to send missionaries. This seems like something that goes on without a PCs notice. It is always possible that the guild has just arrived at vf.

But anyhow, I haven`t a clue.

[Rian]

there are some liches and undead that retain their morals though. look at barilzar, he shut himself away to keep the mazed band out of mortal hands. or aesliip, who became an undead to protect solstheim from destruction at the hands of 12 frost atronachs. there are some noble undead, not many though.

as for the tribunal temple, vivec could in some weird way be considered undead, i mean he's lived a long time past his expiry date due to lorkans heart, so he could be considered un-dead or even not-dead.

[Garriath]

It seems to me that trying to establish a necromancer guild in Morrowind is like trying to set up a criminal lair in the bathroom of a police station.

[Rian]

too true, too true.

[cwandell]

The King of worms is located in the Dragontail mountain range i believe. he has a fortress somewheres in there thats filled with all manner of undead and the such. He is a major player in daggerfall, he wishes to become a god. As far as I can tell he's a powerful Lich, that rules the Dragontail mountains from his castle, and is generally a repuslive figure... atleast from my experiences with him....

[Abramul]

I thought the God of Worms worked for BethSoft...

[cwandell]

he's not a god, but pretty close in power

[Abramul]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showuser=5

[ThorFluff]

he does work for BethSoft but maybe he was just given that name to cover up the consiparcy between the undead and the dwemer! you know some of the Dwemer runes on the pipes in thier ruins does say just that; "Wormgod"
Hmm... there is an awful lot of Dwemer Ghosts...

Maybe they forced the name on him to cover up the connection, just cause they wanted it secret, for another game in the future!

[cwandell]

Maybe when he joined? he just decided to put down worm god as his name? there isn't always a hidden meaning to everything. now that i understand the 'god of worms' references you made, no...the King of Worms is not that guy, its an NPC in the dragon tail mountains in Daggerfall. he's in scourg borrow or something like that lovely dungeon filled with undead, and vermin and other nasty things I might be able to aquire a screen shot for those of you are interested ?