Dwemeris

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Sile wrote:Once again Stalkers Logic defeats all.

Thank you.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:10 pm

I already read the threads on the ES forums but you're jsut as far away from the translation as everyone here. The only thing you've noticed what people here seem to miss is that parts of 'The Egg of Time' and 'Divine Metaphysics' are identical, meaning that either the language is gibberish and doesn't mean anything at all or there's some system in ordering the glyphs in a certain way and then to translate them. Since two books with identical sentences somewhere halfway seems quite unlogical if there really is something standing there.

Anyway, letter by letter is not a bad idea at all. You can order the letter in the matter you want, but it'd still be Dwemer glyphs in Dwemer language so there's nothing you can do to get it the way you want. However if you have more glyphs that are deciphered (using braille and daedric, for example) you can try finding different Dwemer words in the text by ordering it in some way.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:24 pm

I already read the threads on the ES forums but you're jsut as far away from the translation as everyone here

I know that. That's why I'm waiting for Oblivion and some new clues.

The only thing you've noticed what people here seem to miss is that parts of 'The Egg of Time' and 'Divine Metaphysics' are identical

No, we haven't missed it.

using braille and daedric, for example

Daedric cannot be connected to Dwemeris in any way.

Dragon · Post by **Dragon** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:27 pm

I thought I had seen a translation of those books, humf..

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:31 pm

Stalker wrote:
Vegor wrote: The only thing you've noticed what people here seem to miss is that parts of 'The Egg of Time' and 'Divine Metaphysics' are identical
No, we haven't missed it.

I meant the guys here that did'nt read the posts on the ES forums not you or the others at the ES forums who were trying to get somewhere. I've read it there and therefor realised you can't easily decipher it letter by letter.

Stalker wrote:
Vegor wrote: using braille and daedric, for example
Daedric cannot be connected to Dwemeris in any way.

I do recall a post from a mod on the old forums where he said Dwemeris and Daedric font both originated from the same language, Ehlnofey (sp?) (I am not entirely sure it was a mod though). Why would a mond post this if there really is no correspondece between the language? Though I agree with you that it's hard to see any similarity at all.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:35 pm

You memory betrayed you. Wormod (I think it was him) said that they do NOT originate form the same language. Dwemris originates from Ehlnofeis. Daedric is the language of Daedra. Two different things if you ask me.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Sun Oct 03, 2004 2:39 pm

True, but do the writings originate from Daedra worshippers or from the Daedra themselves? I thought the Daedra font was the same as what all Dunmer used to write but their language has evolved while Daedric worshipper kept the old writings intact. I am probably mistaking, but I don't think the Deadric Princes and their minions would come up with a real font and language being chaos and all. It's a rather orderly thing to come up with a font.

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:18 am

It probally came from both. If you think about it, the daedra could have instructed the worshippers to make the ruins as they are seen currently, therefore teaching the worshippers Daedric runes. And over time the worshippers might change the meaning of each rune ever so much.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 5:22 pm

Dunmer ralk and write in Elvish. Their main script is not Daedric. At least it's what I understood from Wormgod's post. Visit link #2 I provided for more info.

Garriath · Post by **Garriath** » Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:38 pm

That just leaves me wondering why all the signs on Vvardenfell are in Daedric...

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:53 am

Because it prety! thats like asking why puting "E Pluribus Unum" on the US coins, because its cooler then english.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:29 am

If I get Wormgod right, the Dunmer use the elven script for all casual writing. However, when they want to be fancy or show off, they write in the Daedric script. That's why all signs on Vvardenfell are in Daedric.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:01 am

Yeap. You got the point.

Fallen Murk · Post by **Fallen Murk** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:46 pm

First off I'll just say that you all interested me in this so I tried to use some of my old cryptogram methods on these.

Stalker, I promise to visit those links as soon as I can (maybe tonight - 'The Officials' are blocked here at work), but last night I spent all my time going over the Braille connection. I see some logic there. On a first pass it looked like I had all but 5 glyphs identified, but applying them to the texts yielded rubbish.

From a cryptogram point of view, these texts are not too promising. Usually single letter words are the first key. (There are only a few.) At nearly the same time, double consonants are also key. (I see only one set - reverse 7 - which might be "f".) From my days where a friend and I would write texts and encrypt them to try and stump each other, (Wow, what a couple geeks!) I know you have to go through quite a bit of effort to keep letter/word decryption keys out of the text. (My buddy had a decryption program made up to replace letters, maybe someone here would be interested to replace one English set with the Dwemeri Glyphs - that's beyond me. I'll try and locate it.)

There are lots of double consonants if you read top-to-bottom, but the similarities, but mixed lines between to the two books negate that method.

The thing that tells me to preliminarily conclude that these texts are nonsense and copy/pasted character strings to fill two pages worth each is that even letters that we are relatively sure about ("f' and "s") yield two letter words, numerous times, of "fs". And that's just whacky. (Yes, I understand that I shouldn't expect English words to result, but I also would expect something a little less alien than people fzzzing between large words.)

What do you think about the idea that X26 ("_") could be a mark that signifies the next character to be upper case?

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 7:40 pm

I thought that about the _ as well, as being either capital or period. But either way, it is either untranslatable or nonsense. I also made up most letters from the Braille alphabet, but the first problem is that you're not entirely sure and the second problem is the books are crypted in some way we don't know. There's no way we can deciphre them.

With the fs, I don't see this as a real non-Dwemer sounding work. It could be very possible that it is a Dwemer word.

After two days of staring at it intensively and looking at Braille, Dwemer scrypt and reading through the forums, my personal conclusion is that the Dwemer books are nonsense. The devs might say otherwise and might come up with some far fetched way to translate it in a distant future, but when they wrote these books they wrote nonsense. I have no proof of course, but I am almost sure this is the case.

Darth_Blade · Post by **Darth_Blade** » Fri Oct 08, 2004 10:08 am

Stalker claims he was visited by Sheogorath and uncovered the mystery of Dwemeris. But he refuses to say anything further.

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Mon Oct 11, 2004 8:32 am

*Waits*

*Prepare Sodium Petathonal*

Heh Heh Heh...

Nigedo · Post by **Nigedo** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:05 am

It's nice to see more chaps working on deciphering the ever-elusive Dwemeris glyphs.

A few more facts for you;

- Dwemeris glyphs were created by Michael Kirkbride for TESA: Redguard.

- The earliest manuscript forms of glyphs (in game publication terms) are the Dwemer schematics which first appeared in Redguard and later reappeared in Morrowind.

- Cyrus the Redguard attributed sounds to some glyphs, using the book 'Dwarven Lore' by Favoril. You can read his pronunciation of them at the Academy site (see my sig).

I have a strong suspicion that some of the earliest glyphs (schematics and Stros M'Kai architecture) will be dev's initials or names. This was the case with the Script runes on Morrowind rust-pipes, which spell 'WormGod', and MK also marked the bridges he made for Redguard with a large 'M'. Artist devs are a vain sort and often sign their artwork somewhere; there are centurions running around in Morrowind with "GT" carved on their heads.

My suggestion; start by trying to translate the small early examples of glyphs and look for devs signatures.

Fallen Murk · Post by **Fallen Murk** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:06 pm

Nigedo wrote:It's nice to see more chaps working on deciphering the ever-elusive Dwemeris glyphs.

Thanks. I was assuming we were coming into this too late.

- Dwemeris glyphs were created by Michael Kirkbride for TESA: Redguard.

I did not know this for sure, but suspected. I have been noticing his style in all this.

------------------

I'm still reading through all the postings and work you guys have done already. No point in covering already covered ground.

------------------

My only talent in this was the cryptogram angle, but from what I'm reading it appears that each character may represent a syllable. I have yet to finish reading though, so nobody tell me the end. I like a good mystery.

Oh, and... Dumb question: Is Divayth Fyr on the officials MK? Has to be, right?

Nigedo · Post by **Nigedo** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:01 pm

Divayth Fyr is WormGod... well.. GT Noonan anyway.

Fallen Murk · Post by **Fallen Murk** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 8:01 pm

Because he had already posted 'in persona', I assumed he was not re-appearing 'in character'. Wrong assumption. Thanks.

Beef Puppy · Post by **Beef Puppy** » Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:12 pm

I have a therie, but i may have a better one if you can help me. Does anyone know any Language alphabet with 27 letters? I know Russian has 33 letters. I sorry if that doesn't work, I'm not a lore guy

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:41 am

Me, beign a Random liking old stuff, I was a that babaloanyian (spelling?) names looked like Part dwemer names.

Nchubasserther

Fallen Murk · Post by **Fallen Murk** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:52 pm

Haruko wrote:I have a therie, but i may have a better one if you can help me. Does anyone know any Language alphabet with 27 letters? ...

Like I say at the official forums. I know nothing about Hebrew, but I did see one site that showed - what I counted to be - 27 Hebrew characters in a table.

There are other mitigating factors though - the whole Braille thing and the Script letters that are known to have English letter equivalents (there are then some Glyphs and Script characters that look similar/identical reinforcing a near-English character set.)

I'm not pushing one theory over another, just pointing out the many branches of the same tree. 8)

Fallen Murk · Post by **Fallen Murk** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:56 am

FYI. There's a bit of a Hebrew connection going on over at the officials...
[url=http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17262]Decoding The Egg of Time and Divine Metaphysics., A study of these texts & dev hints...[/url]

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:52 am

*Is Stupified*

Darth_Blade · Post by **Darth_Blade** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 8:44 pm

I checked with my friend who lives in Israel. The glyphs are in no way connected to Dwemeris, except one of them is a mirror image of the Hebrew lamed, which is L. I believe the Hebrew issue is resolved and can thrown away along with other old theories that proved wrong.
We need new ideas. THINK! THINK!!!

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:19 pm

Has anyone considered that the Dwemeris language may be Phonemic? Those kind of spellings almost always come out at different lengths to the actual word.

Sile · Post by **Sile** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:31 am

Wel this is how I see it. It has the ability to read any direction except diagonal. it could read left to right, Right to left, up to down or down to up.

Fallen Murk · Post by **Fallen Murk** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:58 pm

I can't be specific because my source (Affa Mu) wasn't, but he had the notion that EoT and DM were randomly put together. Bummer. All that work for nothing.

Maybe the other texts, like the Redguard screen shots, will be able to be translated.

Due to my being very depressed on this topic, I defer to Nigedo for further discussion. He's up to speed on the latest I believe.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:30 am

I want explanation, Nigedo and burning Wormgod's corpse HERE AND NOW !

Darth_Blade · Post by **Darth_Blade** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:30 am

Hmmm... but WormGod once said that he didn't remember what was written in these books. That suggests that there is SOMETHING written there. Although seeing as both books are identical lines in different order... well... my worst fears have come true...

Fallen Murk · Post by **Fallen Murk** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:25 pm

Darth_Blade wrote:I checked with my friend who lives in Israel. The glyphs are in no way connected to Dwemeris, except one of them is a mirror image of the Hebrew lamed, which is L. I believe the Hebrew issue is resolved and can thrown away along with other old theories that proved wrong...

I just re-read this.

No. No. The theory was that the Glyphs each are unique creations, put together in a cryptic way to create the (ehem, books

) and other writings, but each glyph may represent a Hebrew character.

We need new ideas. THINK! THINK!!!

I, like many others before, may park my neurons in neutral until the next installment (TES-IV Oblivion) comes along.

I can't find it now, but someone in one of the discussion threads had posted the requirements for translating an unknown language; it was like... you need one or more of these: 1)a key 2)an abundance of the language to study or 3)a clear understanding of the subject matter. None of which we have if the EoT and DM are a random graphic.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:49 pm

It was Lady Nerevar posting in our Dwemeris thread on the old forums.

Savant · Post by **Savant** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:29 am

If you look at one of stalkers links there's a rumor on Morrowind Summit that there was some trick to translate/transliterate dwemer by using german. That might make a little sense, considering that Bethesda has already done something like that with the translation of the sload language.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 4:07 am

This is all very funny in retrospect. You know, since we found out that it was all gibberish for sure.

Savant · Post by **Savant** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:38 pm

????

Hmm, where did you find that, Sload? I musn't have read something or another here.

I was just kinda getting onto that conclusion by myself, though. Last night I had just gone off to analize the frequency in the symbols. I could probably show you it in its entirety, but the gist of it was that there was a distubingly equal distribution of letters. While there's a couple majorities in some letters like X15, they were around a 5% majority tops, which is only half what would be needed to match the letter E, which has a 11.74% frequency in our alphabet.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 9:46 pm

Interview with Douglas Goodall:

Sinder Velvin:
Can the two Dwemer books Divine Metaphyscis and Egg of Time ever be translated?

Douglas Goodall:
Egg of Time and Divine Metaphyiscs are, as far as I know, random Dwemer letters. The letters don't have any real pattern or meaning.

Savant · Post by **Savant** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:07 pm

Oh, yes, I read that. Of course, I looked at it saying that's "as far as he knows." Still, the frequencies I found might agree.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:11 pm

The only thing Dwemer that we can translate is the pipes. Its 'Wormgod' bacwards.