The Next Province

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:42 pm

Well, hammerfell is really more desert and rocky mountains(most like north africa, the middle east and persia) In all my wandering in daggerfall, I'v yet to see anything but those two types of land.

We've seen a few buildings that look nordic, yes, but we also have a ton of designs, and bloodmoon as a good reference. I just think its better to go with the more manageable province first.

Odowacar · Post by **Odowacar** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:53 pm

Dexter wrote:
Em, when was it announced that we were "99.9% sure" that switching to Oblivion was the way to go?
A possible switch to Oblivion is the biggest possible decision TR for TR to make. It shouldn't be taken as a given without hearing from all of the members.
We have said on the forums, many times, that we cannot possibly finish Tamriel in our current engine. There are too many bugs that keep getting worse as you move away from 0,0.
And for the Skyrim Architecture. You all saw one or two buildings in the screenshots that could be used in Skyrim. Have we seen evidence of a whole set we could use in Skyrim? And for the landscape and flora, isnt Hammerfell extremely similar to Cyrodiil? Sure, there are less forests and more plains, but that makes things easier. Obviously we will have to wait and see what Oblivion offers us, but I think it's really silly to be casting your vote for Skyrim because you saw two buildings that we may be able to use.

So after Morrowind completed we will start working with the Oblivion CS? Or will we do some other provinces with the old CS?

And Skyrim will have my vote since so many other people have voted for it and I wanna be on the winner's side.
Just kidding. I vote for Skyrim 'cos there are already billions of models that could be used in Skyrim and 'cos there are a lot of folk here who seem to know about the Skyrim lore.

Infinitium · Post by **Infinitium** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:59 pm

Seeing as cyrodil is likely to have to be rebuilt to a beliavable scale first (the cities are pocket worlds as well, so this would be rather easy as it is), why not set the game to take place a few (dozen?) years BEFORE the coming of the nerevarine (ie morrowind)?

Not only does the games provide us with a bull's load of lore from this period (and a good deal of interesting characters), but it also completely works around the oblivion mainquest, the nerevarine paradox AND allows the tribunal and Dagoth Ur to still be alive (though the latter would still be sleeping beneath red mountain and the former kick your ass regardless of level with their unlimited access to the heart. Would allow the dunmer to actually worship a still living tribunal as well.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:16 pm

the crappy old TES3 netimmerse engine

@Eraser: ahem, if that engine allowed TR members to produce this, then I wouldn't say a word against it.
[url]http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/?picture=Corkarth_04.jpg&p=screenshots&gallery=6[/url]

@Infititium: The problem with that is that you would have to disable all of the Oblivion main quest and probably a huge amount of it's dialogue(and probably some books too)

Also, do you really think all of TR's membership is going to be able to run out and buy a brand-new PC in order to play Oblivion?

And even if TR does switch to Oblivion, Cyrodiil will have to be massively scaled up first.

Odowacar · Post by **Odowacar** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:26 pm

Ludovic wrote: Also, do you really think all of TR's membership is going to be able to run out and buy a brand-new PC in order to play Oblivion?

True.

If TR decides to switch to Oblivion CS I have a problem. My PC is from the Stone Age and I have no money to buy a new one.

Mr. Sorry of Balmora · Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:27 pm

Elsywer would be cool in fact being on just the Oblivion engion would be friggin' awsome

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:02 pm

I agree with Sload, I guess that what the devs say about bigger not always being better is true. You can have 1 thousand square miles filled with the same amount of content as the original game, for the sake of scale, and it would be worse off, for it would feel empty in comparison.

I understand that Daggerfall was a great game, and huge, full of content, its a pity I never got around to playing it. But in comparison, in an engine which is more 3D and requires much more detailing and is not randomly generated, it creates far more work than you would ever want, in my opinion.

Now I dont agree with the ommissions that Oblivion has made over Morrowind, but I do attempt to understand why. Morrowind, in comparison to Daggerfall, there were a helluva lot of skills and features dropped, did this make Morrowind a bad game? Of course not! I believe the same will be true for Oblivion.

This may be an odd idea, but to perhaps get a sense of scale of Oblivion, the TR team could generate a flat landscape (beyond what the devs have done across the boarders) that takes the basic shape of the map of Tamriel. The base model of the landscape would then help decide whether the scale truely needs to be altered, and lay the foundation for those Provinces to be produced in the future.

Mr. Sorry of Balmora · Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:09 pm

Orix wrote:I agree with Sload, I guess that what the devs say about bigger not always being better is true. You can have 1 thousand square miles filled with the same amount of content as the original game, for the sake of scale, and it would be worse off, for it would feel empty in comparison.

I understand that Daggerfall was a great game, and huge, full of content, its a pity I never got around to playing it. But in comparison, in an engine which is more 3D and requires much more detailing and is not randomly generated, it creates far more work than you would ever want, in my opinion.

Now I dont agree with the ommissions that Oblivion has made over Morrowind, but I do attempt to understand why. MOrrowind, in comparison to Daggerfall, there were a helluva lot of skills and features dropped, did this make Morrowind a bad game? Of course not! I believe the same will be true for Oblivion.

This may be an odd idea, but to perhaps get a sense of scale of Oblivion, the TR team could generate a flat landscape (beyond what the devs have done across the boarders) that takes the basic shape of the map of Tamriel. The base model of the landscape would then help decide whether the scale truely needs to be altered, and lay the foundation for those Provinces to be produced in the future.

*cheers and tears my friend*
well said

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:42 pm

Mr. Sorry, please try to make more helpful and constructive contributions to the discussion, rather than quoting large chunks of text and then thanking everyone for what they are saying.

Thanks.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:45 pm

bigger not always being better is true.

Yes, this is true, but look at it from the perspective of creeating all the meshes and Oot items. If Cyrodiil ends up being the same size as Vvardenfell, then many itams will have to be created that will only be used in one province that's half the size.(of Vvardenfell) Not only that, but we don't really know how good Oblivion will be. There's only so much you can tell from screenshots, and sequels aren't always better. (FF9 anyone?)

PoHa! · Post by **PoHa!** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:24 pm

Why do so many people want to resize Oblivion? Isn't it TR's stance NOT to touch Bethesda's original content? So wouldn't that include resizing?

[contradiction="PoHa!, think these things through next time"]Also, I had a thought. Supposing we understand the "Pocket world" concept correctly, we could do Summerset Isles or High Rock next. We would just have to create a teleport to them. Damn... I'm contradicting myself... no touching original content...[/contradiction]

Anyways, while Bloodmoon (and Tribunal) were the most fun and interesting parts of Morrowind (IMO), they also came out after the original, and were largely different from what we had been playing on before. Many of the quests were better/more interesting, because more of the Bethesda team could focus on smaller areas (instead of a huge island). The point is, basing what one wants to do next off of how much fun they had (or how much better it was) in Solstheim shouldn't be the deciding factor.

As far as the meshes and things like that that we will need to add, I think it will likely be the same for most provinces (except Black Marsh and Elseweyr) that border Cyrodil. Of course, that remains to be seen.

kingfish · Post by **kingfish** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:29 pm

come on, stay on topic, will you guys?

the purpose of this thread is to decide what province will be next...

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:58 pm

Yes, this is NOT a thread to discuss any switch to any engine.

We've seen a few buildings that look nordic, yes, but we also have a ton of designs, and bloodmoon as a good reference. I just think its better to go with the more manageable province first.

If you want designs, you need look no further than the Redguard comic. Remember, the Solstheim Nords are NOT the Skyrim Nords. They are two very different cultures. The Solstheim Nords are essentially a group of hippies that ran off to their own private island to hug some trees because they couldn't hang with the bigger badder Nords.
Also, we know that Skyrim has nine holds. But what are their names? Their characteristics? This is a very big decision to make on our part. If we are to invent the lore, it would be even bigger than if we were to invent the Great Houses in Morrowind. In Hammerfell, we know the name of the kingdoms, and what each kingdom is like.

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:33 pm

Right, apologies for digressing to the topic about game engines before.

Nomadic1 wrote:Personally, I reckon this discussion should be taking place once Oblivion has been released.

This is something to consider, since we really have no diea just how much lore is going to be released in Oblivion. For all we know there could hypothetically be books and books released on just about any province. I noticed from the illegal Russian screeshots that there is a series of books (with at least 2 parts) about Argonia. Although I think we should continue the debate, perhaps when Oblivion comes out, the new sources of Lore could be laid out in this discussion and whether it will impact people's descision?

So, according to all the posts so far (in a heavily condensed, and possibly partially subjective, nutshell):

Argonia - No where near enough lore, other Argonian types would be difficult to mesh and animate (facial animation etc), a difficult place to design and build?
Elsweyr - Not quite enough lore?, Other Khajiit types would be difficult to mesh and animate (facial animation etc).
Hammerfell - Loads of Lore about the place (2 games worth), more interesting/less generic than Skyrim?
High Rock - Can only be done after Hammerfell, due to not being connected directly to Cyrodil.
Morrowind - Left as last province, since it's been/being done.
Orsinium - Could be done at same time as Hammerfell (and perhaps Skyrim), but otherwise not connected to Cyrodil.
Skyrim - Fair amount of lore (is it enough, though?), *some* relevant models/textures exist in Ob CS, map has been done, deemed most manageable province?
Summerset Isle - Island would have to be moved, lest it created in proportion to Cyrodil. Amount of usable lore/fun factor unknown (by me).
Valenwood - Unique and interesting to build, but difficult in comparison to other provinces? Amount of usable lore unknown (by me).

People seem to be gravitating towards a Skyrim versus Hammerfell debate. While Skyrim (after a quick skim) looks like it has more votes, I have to agree that Hammerfell, while perhaps marginally harder to create in terms of housing and landscapes, certainly sounds more interesting, and would be my third choice after Argonia and Elsweyr. Maybe we could also use many of the level maps and locales in Daggerfall and Redguard to influence the design, thus perhaps making the creative process easier?

I am wondering though. What about Elsweyr, Summerset Isle and Valenwood in terms of Lore?
Do they have enough background to warrent being a contender for the next province?

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:39 pm

Orsinium is in High Rock.

Summurset, Valenwood, Elsewyre, and Argonia are unknown in terms of Lore so we cannot do those.

Skyrim and Hammerfell remain.

Oh, and please, please, PLEASE don't go by the outdated Arena map borders. Use Rahmoses' fan map as referece to borders.

fanfas · Post by **fanfas** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 8:42 pm

I would love to see summerset islands but as my love for them is so much i think we should do it last (just before MRW) because by that time there will be a lot of meshes and models made by the community as resouces, also that islands, despite their habitants being ass holes to all outsiders, should be about eye candy and paradisiac sites... like the vacations islands of our dreams

.

So by now and as the majority of you think Argonia is difficult to make because of the lack of Lore i should support the Hammerfell province as well (it as a lot of space to creativity and we have lots of lore), also i think that the Skrym map is not complete yet. So no problem here, and speaking about the map, it have to be redone... because of what? well the scale... it was made in Morrowind scale remember... and the scale of OB is for shure at least half of morrowind... Todd and Pete already confirmed that.

About the size of OB i agree that if the province is not big enough we should extend it... but like someone said not touching the citys and stuff, we should just add forests,some caves and plains to explore. will it be boring... well if the province as big forests and plains they should be there. US as a lot of desert to cross too... also if the places have enough cool things they will not be that boring also don't forget that you have a horse

Also if Oblivion is, lets say, smaller then Morrowind (the all province)... the next provinces will be really small... i think that Morrowind has the best scale in terms of gameplay/fun factor.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:13 pm

Ok, I'm sorry for getting caught up in the engines debate.

Some points regarding provinces:

Hammerfell The games already set there took place in a much earlier time, so much of this lore will have changed.

-We have no idea how much extra lore about areas outside Cyrodiil will be provided in Oblivion. I think MK (a dev) once said that the number of books is greater in every game, and the capital would be reasonably expected to have information on the places it rules.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:23 pm

Hammerfell The games already set there took place in a much earlier time, so much of this lore will have changed.

We can't assume that. Most lore from earlier games has stayed the same, more or less. Sure, there are details that get shifted around here and there, but for the most part, the main structure of the lore remains constant.

viKING · Post by **viKING** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:46 pm

I vote for skyrim, but Argonia would be cool too.

But what about morrowind?

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:52 pm

viKING · Post by **viKING** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:38 pm

er... if I said something stupid(again) I'm sorry...

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:27 pm

Skyrim or hammerfell, either way I don't think its a problem. Although I'm pretty sure hammerfell wasn't all nice pretty forests like cyrodiil except for the alik'ir desert.

On the scale, we have to play the game to make a decision. While I'd love a huge world(gigantic forests and mountains and realistic travel times oh I wish it were doable), we do have to balance fun with size. Morrowind did have a good balance, The world felt large, yet it wasn't unmanageably large or empty. The way they talk about the world, it sounds like it will be enormous, but we've seen the 16sqm size(actually I think thats only the playable area, not counting the view distance building, check a screen at oblivionscans.ru to see what i mean) if all of cyrodiil is in the game, since cyrodiil covers about half the width and height of tamriel at 16sqm, would probably make the great continent of tamriel, probably no bigger than long island's land area.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:41 pm

Well my vote's been swayed to Hammerfell, so that's what I'm going to be voting for.

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:21 am

Arthmodeus wrote:Oh, and please, please, PLEASE don't go by the outdated Arena map borders. Use Rahmoses' fan map as referece to borders.

I believe I did

The Orsinium mix up wasn't completely my fault, someone mentioned it in one of their threads and it stuck in my mind. However, looking at the map that you made it shows Orsinum between the Dragonatil and Wrothgian Mountains, both are locales where Orc live (according to the main Elderscrolls website). So perhaps they were thinking of the Dragonatil Mountains in the North of Hammerfell instead?

Eraser wrote:Morrowind did have a good balance, The world felt large, yet it wasn't unmanageably large or empty. The way they talk about the world, it sounds like it will be enormous, but we've seen the 16sqm size(actually I think thats only the playable area, not counting the view distance building, check a screen at oblivionscans.ru to see what i mean) if all of cyrodiil is in the game, since cyrodiil covers about half the width and height of tamriel at 16sqm, would probably make the great continent of tamriel, probably no bigger than long island's land area.

I was just looking at the map, and if Morrowind was 9 square miles, I suppose Cyrodil ought to really be *around* 25 square miles overall... but then again I'm no geographer. I imagine that sticking another 9 square miles into the map would be quite difficult without messing up what is already built, and would go against TR's policy of not messing with what is already done.

viKING wrote:But what about morrowind?

I'm assuming that Morrowind will be the last province to be incorperated into Oblivion, assuming we get that far before the next TES game, mainly because TR is aiming to complete Morrowind using the NetImmerse engine and then be done with it. If anyone else converts Morrowind into the Oblivion engine, which I'm sure they will, lets hope they adhere to lore as well as TR have.

Arthmodeus · Post by **Arthmodeus** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:25 am

I believe I did Razz The Orsinium mix up wasn't completely my fault, someone mentioned it in one of their threads and it stuck in my mind. However, looking at the map that you made it shows Orsinum between the Dragonatil and Wrothgian Mountains, both are locales where Orc live (according to the main Elderscrolls website). So perhaps they were thinking of the Dragonatil Mountains in the North of Hammerfell instead?

Oh, I was refering to everyone, not just you.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:04 am

Either way, well have the southernmost areas of skyrim and hammerfell made already for us:

[img]http://notimp.goldcode.de/pcgamesrep/OblPCGRep22.jpg[/img]

Note the smaller map on the upper right, where you can make out the shape of tamriel and that a good deal of hammerfell and skyrim are very much built. How detailed the area is beyond the terrain shape and texture, we have to wait and see. But its almost certain we'll have to build any cities and towns in the areas.

That will be a problem if they have a mountain right where a town is supposed to be.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:41 am

Hammerfell looks like a good idea, I say this for the general sense of adventure the whole pirate thing gives. It will also be a change from Morrowind, also from what I heard the Comic will provide lore and building styles.

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:49 am

Well, after loading up daggerfall...damn hammerfell can be varied. Lets go with that.

Zipping around, some areas were very desolate, namely around the alik'ir desert's surrounding areas. obviously there's a good deal of desert, dry, rocky plains, some tropical areas, and some regular foresty areas(that actually had snow in daggerfall)

One game where the protaganist is a pirate, doesn't make pirates a common life among redguards, there's alot of hammerfell that doesn't have any water nearby. however we do know they're very aggressive, yet independant.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:52 am

If it comes down to Skyrim and Hammerfell, i'd go with Hammerfell.

Mr. Sorry of Balmora · Wed Oct 26, 2005 2:54 am

how can we be absolutly sure well even have to
Rebuild Tamriel (hah! Get it TR, RT? Ah? AH? oh nevermind) if is is already built for us by the "Oblivions" maybe they will landmass all of tamriel an well just have to put all the little cities and towns in. Well there in lies the problem

messing with Betesda's original work

. if we con vert to the oblivion engion whatever province we do next wether we add landmass or cities to landmass were

messing with Bethesda's original work

what do you think were doing now... creatin a new universe no were messing with Betesda's original game so those who say that they arn't messing wtih the origional content are lieing when they use Hlallu interior textures and only add TR stuff you can never not mess with the original content to create somethin new unless you get a copyright signed by the comany to bulid an entire game yourself with maybe a few close friends definetly not an online community

*Gasp Gasp Gasp*
WWWHHHHEEEEWWW!
There I said it so PoHa!, You are messing with the origional work, we all are.

P.S. Vote for Another Game

P.P.S.
If i have ofended anyone
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Saibot · Post by **Saibot** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:13 am

I would prefer Skyrim. Hammerfell my second pic second. I'm not too interested in Valenwood. Argonia would be cool but wicked-hard. And Elsewyre, well, I kinda have a problem with the Khajiit... They make me nervous. And Mr. sorry, I disagree.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:24 am

Mr. Sorry Of Balmora wrote:how can we be absolutly sure well even have to
Rebuild Tamriel (hah! Get it TR, RT? Ah? AH? oh nevermind) if is is already built for us by the "Oblivions" maybe they will landmass all of tamriel an well just have to put all the little cities and towns in. Well there in lies the problem
messing with Betesda's original work
. if we con vert to the oblivion engion whatever province we do next wether we add landmass or cities to landmass were
messing with Bethesda's original work
what do you think were doing now... creatin a new universe no were messing with Betesda's original game so those who say that they arn't messing wtih the origional content are lieing when they use Hlallu interior textures and only add TR stuff you can never not mess with the original content to create somethin new unless you get a copyright signed by the comany to bulid an entire game yourself with maybe a few close friends definetly not an online community

*Gasp Gasp Gasp*
WWWHHHHEEEEWWW!
There I said it so PoHa!, You are messing with the origional work, we all are.

P.S. Vote for Another Game

P.P.S.
If i have ofended anyone
vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

*dies from the ridiculousness of what he reads* I think anyone here is willing to concede that we are "messing with Bethesda's original work" by modding. That is what we're doing. And

P.S. Vote for Another Game

is the silliest thing you could say.

Mr. Sorry of Balmora · Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:26 am

were do you dissagree? the Another Game, the original work, or the land thing?

even Betesda has to mess with the guy who has a copyright on the interaction between machiens and people... when working on the Xbox... they have to pay a royalty to the microsoft company to pay the royalty to Magnavox not the guy who everyone says invented video games but Magnavox.

PoHa! · Post by **PoHa!** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:37 am

I'm not even going to dignify Sorry's logic with a real response.

And just in case it wasn't clear before, I've changed my vote from Skyrim to Hammerfell, largely due to Dexter's uber convincing of badass righteousness.

Mr. Sorry of Balmora · Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:53 am

I feel like my own self is bein kicked, spat on, whipped, and that i'm bein nailed to something sortta plus sign looking just cause i speak truth

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:05 am

I won't even begin to try to make sense of what just happened.

It seems teh majority is switching to hammerfell now.

Mr. Sorry of Balmora · Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:08 am

well i'm going to "wait-n-see" what Oblivion has to offer

TÃƒÂºrelio · Post by **TÃƒÂºrelio** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:52 am

Don't mean to jump in as the guy-that-is-never-around-anymore, just offering up my thoughts. From a resources point of view, in terms of Lore, concept art, even models and overall structure, the best choice would be to turn right back around and rebuild Morrowind.

You could even translate most of the quests that you have planned now right back into the TESCIV, or build on their stories, either way the foundations are laid, which means it will be 10x faster than this time, not considering how much faster the TESCIV will be anyways.

The main problem with that is that you will HAVE to come up with a future plotline for Morrowind, and what exactly will have happened, even if its only 6 years alot can happen. This will probably be a touchy issues with alot of people, everyone has their own theories and many of them are very possible.

If not Morrowind, I suggest Elsweyr, just because I would love to see all those stoned cats, that would never get old.

Anyways, once I overdose myself on Oblivion, and hopefully find time from work and all the other stuff that comes with a so called "life", I will definitly come back to help on whatever place is chosen next. It'll be just like old times.

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:07 am

Mr. Sorry Of Balmora wrote:I feel like my own self is bein kicked, spat on, whipped, and that i'm bein nailed to something sortta plus sign looking just cause i speak truth

Don't feel that way. But next time you make sweeping comments about things like this, please try to think before you type. ;)

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:11 am

First, if the offtopicness will continue the discussion will be closed and the decision will be made privatly by the core. If you don't understand democracy - there will be no democracy. Comprende ? Oh and posts saying "Sorry, it won't happen again" count as offtopic too.

Now about Elsweyr. Even the idea of making it is absolutly ridiculous. Why ? Because it will take us as much time to model and animate all Khajiit as much time it will take me to me myself make Argonia including all meshes.

Valenwood goes away from the list for the severe lack of lore. We all almost nothing except it is green, has moving cities and populated by crazy Bosmer. Plus imagine the Nerevarine in Fargoth's homeland...

Morrowind...tell me please...do you REALLY want to do it all over again ? Me - no way. After hours spent on fixing that crap which was called finished Map M1 was...Everything is fun to an extent and MW is NOT fun anymore.

The only two candidates are Skyrim and Hammerfell.

Now pros of Skyrim. First of all it is no way snowy plains only. Quite the contrary the landscape seems to be pretty interesting. Read PGE:Skyrim on TIL for more info. Skyrim has no.2 highest mountain, huge archeological site, big port... What else people need for a cool province ?