The Official "Let's Talk About The Future Of TR" Thread

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:01 am

Morgoth wrote:TR should do this for themselves out of pride. Don't start something unless you plan on finishing it.

Don't forget though, pride makes you arrogant and haughty, and the ESF idiots like us little enough as it is.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:17 am

Morgoth wrote:TR should do this for themselves out of pride. Don't start something unless you plan on finishing it.

Are you actually serious?

Savant · Post by **Savant** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:13 am

We did start something, and we will finish it...er, the morrowind province, at least.

Honestly, though, Morrowind Mainland will probably be the only thing on the TES3 engine. I'd bet things would go a lot quicker when (if?) we switch over to Oblivion, though. Think about it logically: Bethesda alone created the biggest province in all of Tamriel in, what, 3 years? Something having to do with the TES4 engine must have been revamped or something! Imagine what we could acomplish with the entire mod work force at TR!

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:28 am

When actually, nobody can possibly think of not switching at all.

Not only making the biggest province, they had to write the code for the game as well. But in reality, they worked on it all at least 9-5 7 days a week except for holidays, if not much much more(game dev has rediculous work hour requirments)

We on the otherhand do this all in spare time. everyone here has either work, school, or both. If everyone thats ever been a member of TR put in work hours like bethesda the entire time they were memebers, we'd have built all of tamriel by hand in morrowind by now.

battle_bison · Post by **battle_bison** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:50 am

I've been coming and going to the project for more than a year now I think, and I remember when it was (arguably) at its best and that's what convinced me to join. It seemed that Vegor had a new interior released every day, Noirgrim was making leaps and bounds, Asylum, Majra, Morden (and others) were constantly at work on models and the most important part was that it was moving forward (apoligies to those of note who I did not mention).
Right now, it is almost 90% fixing up old work. Granted, the old work needs fixing, but it should have been fixed in the first place. Quite honestly, I think the quests are a tangled web that many find too intimidating to approach. The guild quests are lost in a series of .doc files that have been passed around between a select group of members, or at least, that's what it seems like to me. The main quest I don't think has even been decided on. The new quest system is brilliant and makes things much more organized, but I feel that it may be too little, too late.
In terms of organization, after 3 (I think it's been 3) years of being, TR has come to adopt some brilliant systems. The OoT with collapsible menu and all is amazing and even the claim system was a huge step in the right direction.
Keeping all of our current systems will make whatever province we make next move ahead at lightspeed. The one necessary addition is one of similar quality for quests (which appears to be in the works). For interiors and exteriors we got the claims browser and now this brand spanking new world explorer that splices together all the world maps! As I said, this new stuff with quests is a big step in the right direction.

Right now, it's largely up to the core to get things set up for Oblivion before it is even released. It will need a new forum, a decided province to work on, followed by a map of that province to divide into claims. Then perhaps look into a better way of making quests claimable/helping people understand how they work.
All that aside though, the sooner we settle on the next province, the sooner we can get a map out and then the sooner claiming can start. I think that is step number one.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:01 am

Yes, I agree that a transition to Oblivion would be nice. If we gradually turned our attention to Oblivion, a little bit at a time. It would be ideal if we could just get a few modelers to work on resources here, and some lore-monkeys to work on information there. Meanwhile, the rest of us would be working on Morrowind just as diligently as we are right now.
Oops.
I can count on two hands the number of people whose work ethic on Morrowind right now could be described as "diligent". I would not be one of them.
Reality check:
We are not getting as many new active members as we are losing, and it is only going to get worse and worse as time goes on. Now I beg all of you to be realistic about this, consider the harsh realities, and think of the best opportunity. If you aren't working on Morrowind right now, don't lie to yourself by saying that others will work on it in the future

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:53 pm

Ludovic, you may be right that we'll get new members if we stick with the TES3 engine but I am also sure we'll loose a lot, probably many more than will join. I, and I am 100% sure a lot of people with me, will join another project to do TES4 modding and quit TR. I am more and more getting fed up with TES3 modding. I still enjoy it, but the joy gets less and less and the worst thing is that a lot of work on Morrowind will be fixing, which is the crappiest part of modding. A lot of us want to start afresh and take up TES4 to do that.

And I don't see a combined TES3/TES4 forum work. It might be a bit drastic to split up our project, but combined forums with discussions for both will be very confusing and won't work very well, I'm afraid. Only the Lounge and perhaps the New Members' Forum could be shared, but no more.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:51 pm

I'm not saying we shouldn't mod for TES4, I'm not even saying that we should finish MW before starting with TES4 engine,(even though I would like that) I'm just saying that all of the organizational work should be done before we start on TES4 engine.

Also, could a Core member give stance on beta releases please?

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Alright, everything that was to be said is pretty much said.
Here is what I have to say, regardless if it counts or not.

Morrowind cannot be completed, given the TR community and time left until O comes out. I realized this during summer but decided to keep participating in the project since it was really worth it (aren't the most heroic fights those that are doomed to fail?).

But TR in TES3 engine has offered to all its participants the ability to better understand how modding for a TES game works, the admins learned how to better organize and direct, the modellers got their share of extra practicing etc.

My point is that, though TR was to fail using TES3 engine, we all got infinite experience out of this, and experience is what it's all about, learning through our mistakes.
Should we decide to begin from scratch in TES4, we will be a lot better, having much greater knowledge of what to do and what to expect. Personally I expect us to see our mistake with this and begin including parts of other mods in this one. I can't even imagine how much time we lost with making stuff that were already part of other mods, whatever it may were, scripts, models, plain ideas.

Guys, Silgrad Tower is already up and making things for O, feeling like creating a convincing Morrowind Province.
Check their site and see the buildings they've already made.
I love the work that's been done in Morrowind, and it's my favorite province because of the inhabitants, but it is visible that it can't be accomoplished, except perhaps map 1.

A lot of people plan ahead as we speak, and we should too, for if we do it later we will be left far behind the others.
I don't know about you guys, but I wanna see TR in the starting line when O comes out, not running to the starting line.

El Scumbago, over & out!

Hamlet_Shakespeare · Post by **Hamlet_Shakespeare** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:40 pm

Agreed. But what are we supposed to do? Recruit more people? Recruit better people, or people who are more willing to work and less likely to screw up? Some people would join, piss their pants at what's going on, and leave the project. And, of course, I'm not pointing fingers at those people who have to leave because of a job or school or anything. But we also need a few more young people who have lots of experience with the CS, people who have lots of time, and aren't being bothered by full-time jobs or anything. People who still have many good years of "service" in TR because they aren't grown up just yet.

I sure wish I could help in a real way, but I don't have the lousy CS yet, and it'll take me a while in order to get good at it.

Resadyn · Post by **Resadyn** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 4:50 pm

Immediately after we switch to Oblivion, this project will fall greatly, because many of the modders will be playing the game and making there own small personal mods to test out the new CS. A few months after Oblivions release will be TR's time to shine.

Silverwood · Post by **Silverwood** » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:53 pm

I have a much different idea. Eather way, this could work. If we stay on TES:3 engine (which I certainly do not want to do) TR modders could take a vacation. Or when Oblivion comes out, we could all just spend a week of to beat the game and get used to its system. Than we could all come back and start fresh modding with ideas. Honestly, I can not stay away from TR for more than a day, but when I do, I come back with tons of ideas of concepts that I want to post. I think we could use advertisments too.
Mayeb not at the Elder site, but other places. Morrowind Summit maybe? A HUGE place for modders, and testers too. If we could contact the core and say we are in need of members, we might get some advertisment permistion. I know one of the large rules is never to advertise for TR, but we need it...

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:17 am

We're pretty much set on switching, everyone wants to.

I think its time to move this discussion into the "next province" thread and come to a consensus and have a vote on the province so we can get the hardcore planning going.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:46 am

Hammerfell!

8) Anyway, it looks like it will be between Skyrim and Hammerfell.

Savant · Post by **Savant** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:23 am

But wait, what about the decision on releasing a beta? I think I kinda liked that decision.

Oh, yeah, and I would agree with making Skyrim as the first thing on TES4--we were already developing a whole lot for it in lore and what not. Why stop?

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:48 am

Savant wrote:But wait, what about the decision on releasing a beta? I think I kinda liked that decision.

Oh, yeah, and I would agree with making Skyrim as the first thing on TES4--we were already developing a whole lot for it in lore and what not. Why stop?

I think I like Hammerfell more, but we already know alot about what Bethesda intends Skyrim to look like because of Solstheim, and I think for the good of TR we should start out with something a bit easier, therefore, Skyrim gets my vote as of now. If we ever did get it finished, then I think we would be ready and willing for Hammerfell. We just shouldn't jump into something so hard so soon. Making Skyrim will give us alot of experiance with the new CS and the O engine as a whole, so it's basically a warmup. Plus, as you said, we already have a good few concepts for Skyrim.

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:54 am

A warmup? I doubt we'll ever get to finish it. Don't expect the new CS to be a wondertool with which you can create great things very fast. Maybe it'll go a little faster, but Skyrim is much, much bigger than mainland Morrowind and will require much more models. The same goes for any other province. We won't finish much more than one province, if any, on one engine.

I would vote for Skyrim. We know more about it and many stock models from Oblivion fit Skyrim perfectly (check screenshots), while they don't fit Hammerfel. Models will be our main problem (or dialogue, perhaps), so I vote Skyrim.

Silverwood · Post by **Silverwood** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:21 am

Shouldn't the votes be in the "Next Province" thread? If not, I vote for Skyrim because I think we should finish whats left the TES:4 didn't do...

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:23 am

I'm still happy either way.

Skyrim would be easier for architecture and other models (we have excellent reference with OB's content and bloodmoon) But I think hammerfell really would be more interesting and fun to do.

There will be (unexplorable) bits of valenwood, elseweyr, argonia, morrowind and hammerfell too for that matter.

fanfas · Post by **fanfas** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:00 am

Don't forget about the scale of OB it's smaller... so all provinces will be smaller

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:14 am

Yes, please let's keep all discussion on which province we do next in the appropriate thread.

battle_bison · Post by **battle_bison** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:47 am

So can we get a new Oblivion forum organized? I think it would be good to get an early start and then everything will be set up by the time that it is actually released.
Here are the steps that I envision need to happen (tentative):
Step 1: Decide on a new province
Step 2: Make a map for that province
Step 3: Divide the map into claims (claiming would not begin yet, of course)
Step 4: Get some concept art for the new province
Step 5: Sexy party!
Perhaps changes should me made here and there, but that's my two cents (or as this is my second message here, perhaps it's four cents now, but who's counting?)

Silverwood · Post by **Silverwood** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:26 am

Battle_Bison seems to have a fine plan for it. It seems as if alot of people in this thread (and the official voting thread.) seemed to favor Skyrim and Hammerfal. Because we dont know what Skyrim they may have done, I say we just start Hammerfal because we can create the map without questioning what The Elder Scrolls Oblivion team has finished in that province.
Also, lots of concept art threads about Hammerfall have seemed to emerge, I think it may be the favored of the group...

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:11 am

We can't really plan something because Oblivion can change a lot of things. And add too. I am pretty sure we won't even need to worry about some stuff in a list...

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:53 am

We're pretty much set on switching, everyone wants to

Em, not me. Am I the only one who wants to keep modding for MW?
Also,I agree with Stalker that there's no point in planning for a game for which we don't even know the specifications.
One other thing, what's the stance on beta releases?

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:08 pm

A beta release is supposed to be full of errors, what would people want to do with something like that?
That was probably our mistake since the beginning, wanting to make every town and village of the mainland and then focus on the exteriors in general and the first map. If all had concetrated on map 1 creation from day 1, it would be done by now-imo.

But wasn't there a poll about the next province already?
An oooold thread in the Tavern.

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:23 pm

Now the claims can't be redone.So we have to use all our goods to have no errors.Error by error...Brick by brick... we will easily fix them...I think if all the member shall gather together then we can do it faster.For example I am waiting for three days on an interior and the intrior moderator didn't granted it.When we are many the power grows!

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:36 pm

You see...you all say to continue working on MW, to unite in the desire to fix all errors etc. etc. etc. I really, really, really can't see the work actually being done. Map 1 detailing and fixing is taking years, interior reviewing has almost halted... Why ? Because there are only a handful of people actually doing something and those people are loosing interest every goddamn second they work on it. Heck, even me who was always for finishing Morrowind (ask Dex or Vern, they'll prove it) is starting to loose interest. Not because of graphics, mind you. I am pretty much comfortable with graphical and modding capabilities of TES3 engine. I am bored of fixing errors, I see that people are bored to do stuff. Nobody has this sparkle to continue working. Oblivion proved to be the poison which is slowly wasting the project. People see how good it may be and they no longer want to endlessly fix errors.

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:48 pm

I think we sholdn't make Tamriel on layers.The mergers have a lot to do and it is a loss of time.I wish to continue on MW.And I want to fix that error.I am not asking you to do that.Maybe I can do it in about a month if you give me all necesarry.Error without cure does not exist.If you tell me what to do I will.

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:11 pm

Ehm...But if the errors can't be fixed...I am sure if we redo EoT and OoT those errors will not be there.And we have to test all of the objects.To ensure we don't have the errors again.So...I think I can do it in about a month(and something

).And until the errors are not finished I will not continue my life.

"For Tamriel!"

Vegor · Post by **Vegor** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:17 pm

Why don't you download the files and give it a try!

And what Stalker says is rather crucial. it's not about the capability of the TES3 engine but because we want to start fresh instead of spending a year long fixing annoying errors. But of course, if hornidcordragos or whathisnameis fixes all errors, everything is solved! Maybe he can finish all Map 4-6 interiors in the next month.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:29 pm

Oblivion proved to be the poison which is slowly wasting the project. People see how good it may be and they no longer want to endlessly fix errors.

Oblivion doesn't really have to do with our own lack of interest... the error fixing alone is enough to drive us away. We're not modding.. and haven't been for a long time. We're just fixing shoddy work that some modder did 3 years ago.. and it blows. We need something new and Oblivion is that opportunity.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:46 pm

horodnicdragos wrote:...redo EoT and OoT...

Hah. Hahah.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:50 pm

Sload wrote:
horodnicdragos wrote:...redo EoT and OoT...
Hah. Hahah.

Uhuh, hysteria.

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:17 pm

Sload wrote:
horodnicdragos wrote:
...redo EoT and OoT...

Hah. Hahah.

Uhuh, hysteria.

I don't understand.What is so funny?

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:25 pm

Horodnic, maybe the language barrier stopped you from realising that people were being sarcastic. Oot has taken thousands of hours to complete, re-doing it isn't an option. Your enthusiasm is good, but you really need to be more realistic.

Now, to try to get the topic back on track, could a Core member comment on why we can't release a beta?(sorry to keep asking)

fanfas · Post by **fanfas** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:28 pm

horodnicdragos wrote:
Sload wrote:
horodnicdragos wrote:
...redo EoT and OoT...

Hah. Hahah.

Uhuh, hysteria.
I don't understand.What is so funny?

Well you shurelly are new here aren't you

try to read some posts around OoT

About not being able to plan thinghs I DISAGREE a lot... if we choose a province we can start doing the map for it and the lore research.... and that is a big point... because it is nor easy todo a good map with all things the later we start dioing that the later we can MOD the real thing....

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:34 pm

Ludovic wrote:Now, to try to get the topic back on track, could a Core member comment on why we can't release a beta?(sorry to keep asking)

We can. We aren't ready yet. Simple as that.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:41 pm

Ok, thanks Stalker.

horodnicdragos · Post by **horodnicdragos** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:08 pm

Ehm...Ok...But I am thankfull even with the beta version.So no need to redo OoT.:DUntil it works fine there is no problem.Am I right?

Tamriel Rebuilt

The Official "Let's Talk About The Future Of TR" Thread

hmm

uh

good