The Official "Let's Talk About The Future Of TR" Thread

[Gez]

You see...you all say to continue working on MW, to unite in the desire to fix all errors etc. etc. etc. I really, really, really can't see the work actually being done. Map 1 detailing and fixing is taking years, interior reviewing has almost halted... Why ? Because there are only a handful of people actually doing something and those people are loosing interest every goddamn second they work on it.

Are nobody interested in doing interior reviewing, if the current reviewers are getting bored?

I'd like to help more than what I've done yet, but I want to see the reviews for my first claim before I do anything else...

[Stalker]

Int reviewing is not as easy as it seems.

[Dexter]

Interior Reviewing is a pain in the ass. You have to check each and every object, both in the editor and in game. It takes a long time, and is extremely tedious.

I'd like to help more than what I've done yet, but I want to see the reviews for my first claim before I do anything else...

There are 157 claims currently in the reviewing section of the Interior Claims Browser. Odds are, you won't be seeing your claim reviews any time soon.

[Gez]

I know. But what would be the purpose of helping in doing stuff right now if it means it will not be reviewed, and thus not be used? As boring and painstaking as they are, reviews are a necessity for the project's life.

And what's the purpose of doing a lot of stuff if all you do contains problems that will have to be solved after the reviews finally arrives? (That's why I'm waiting.)

[Nomadic1]

I'm finding interior reviewing enjoyable (in a way) at the moment. So speak for yourselves

[Savant]

Ehm...Ok...But I am thankfull even with the beta version.So no need to redo OoT.:DUntil it works fine there is no problem.Am I right?

The eyeball's right!... I could imagine a bunch of people would be perfectly happy with just a beta for the time being (myself included); and even if we slack off big and don't finish on TES3, we would still have the beta to play off of. Maybe we could release it after the last of the exterior claims are submitted...

[nietzsche]

I think this topic belongs to this thread It is kind of joint province/quest/future of TR.

Actaually I have two basic ideas: LOTR and war. Let me elaborate.

LOTR: Player would have to or could aquire all the rings of LOTR. Three Elven (Sommerset, Valenwood,Morrowind), Seven Dwarven (Hint: Dwarven ruins scattered perhaps throughout Tamriel) And then the human rings...they would be scattered in the human provinces (High Rock, Cyrodiil, Skyrim).

Okay, Hammerfell is human too. But firstly, it is hard to picture a power hungry lord there. Secondly, 9 divided by 4 gives you uneven number. And this isn't racism. I don't have anything against dark-skinned people (I hope this is a good PC term. Don't flame me please as this is just an idea)

The catch here would be that you would have to collect all the rings before the Nazgul, who would be chasing you and the rings throughout Tamriel (even the nine rings, they wouldn't have those on them)

Where would the One ring be then? The most logical place would of course be Cyrodiil. But perhaps it shouldn't be there. Perhaps it would be hidden deep in the orc territory in some deep underground caverns (not neccesserrally owned by Gollum however). Or perhaps in the Argonia, in the midst of the swamps? Or perhaps in the Elsweyr, buried in some ancient tomb in the desert? (If there is a desert, that is). Of course you would have to destroy the One Ring in Mount Doom (Hint: Red Mountain) Anyways, this could better be done perhaps in Oblivion

War: The reason would be of course be
obvi(li)ous. The collapse of the empire should cause a war between the Tamrielic Provinces. Who would fight who however I can not say. Perhaps Elsweyr and Argonia against Morrowind (slavery) Perhaps High Rock and Summerset Isles (dark mages in High Rock would want wipe out the arrogant Altmer an attain their immortality and magical superiority) Then Skyrim and Hemmerfell against Orcs (pretty obvious). And the Orcs would of course just concentrate in wrecking havoc and generating chaos(with the help of Malacath of course)

Also the various gods should fight with each other. Their motives would be simpler of course: To have as many followers as possible, perhaps even be the sole ruler (diabolical laughter). Or then it could be the classical good gods vs. bad gods thingie. Also this idea is probably better to move to Oblivion.

These are just ideas however and probably easier said than done. You can freely use them as you like. Anyway, they can probably best be done in Oblivion. And if I ever get Oblivion I could perhaps try these myself also (it depends of course a lot about how easy/difficult the Oblivion CS will be)

[Haplo]

Except, this is TES, and not LoTR. Ripping off Tolkien's whole plotline as a mod has already been done by two or three groups, one of which has been shut down. I'm sure TR would prefer to remain open, and true to TES, as apposed to true to LoTR, and run the risk of shutting down.

[Dexter]

You may need to spend some time over here...
http://til.gamingsource.net/
Each of your two ideas go totally in opposition to the goal of this project.

[Morgoth]

Tell me the whole LOTR thing was a joke, please! Don't you think we should one: do something original, two: do something legal, and three: do something that is actually related to TES? Tolkien was the best writer in the history of the world. (No, beleive me, it was not Edgar Allan Poe), I wouldn't want to touch his work for fear of ruining it. That idiot Peter Jackson has already ruined the movies, and now you suggest TR do something along the lines of LOTR too? If anything is to be made into a Tamriel-wide quest, it will certainly not be this. As for your other idea, it just isn't logical for Tamriel. I suggest you spend a little quality time with TIL. (I ask that everyone else ignores this sudden outburst, because I am a Tolkien buff of sorts, and therefore am a bit crazy when it comes to things such as this. )

[Savant]

*stares at nietzsche*
First off: TR creates its own ideas. We're not going to rip off LotR!
Second, and perhaps more important: I don't care how connected to this topic you thought that post was, I'll still call it digression. Make your own thread, or don't do anything at all!

Um, back to the main topic, fellas?

[Morgoth]

Um, back to the main topic, fellas?

Right you are, Savant. Anyhow, days are ticking off the calendar fast, so when are we going to see a next-province poll?

[Lud]

I think the general consensus is that a descision cannot be made until Oblivion is released, due to the large amount of lore that will probably be added by Oblivion.

[Morgoth]

Arg, that doesn't give us any time to prepare at all...

[Orix]

Perhaps, although we should really know how much lore we have for each place before we make a final descision... just think, we may learn everything there is to know about Argonia (since it is known there is more lore on Argonia in Oblivion)! In that case my vote would heartily remain witht that province.

Plus I suppose it enables people to finalise and round off their remaining work on Morrowind before its wrapped up and we move onto Oblivion.

As for whether the team should finish off Morrowind in the Morrowind engine, I suppose finishing Map1 and leaving it there is the only logical way to go, people won't be interested in a mod for a buggy old game... lets hope Oblivion isnt a buggy new game!

One thing that would be cool to see however, is perhaps a little effort on the side of tranferring Morrowind work to Oblivion. Since almost the entire map is done, you know almost exactly how it looks... reproducing something is far easier than creating it in the first place!

That said I agree that most effort should be geared towards the new province. Perhaps when I get my arse in gear and finally begin modding, witht he release of Oblivion, I could try to help the project out in either area .

[Sload]

I know. But what would be the purpose of helping in doing stuff right now if it means it will not be reviewed, and thus not be used? As boring and painstaking as they are, reviews are a necessity for the project's life.

And what's the purpose of doing a lot of stuff if all you do contains problems that will have to be solved after the reviews finally arrives? (That's why I'm waiting.)

Everything will be reviewed eventually and there is no point in waiting instead of claiming something instead. It is impossible to say you won't make something because of something about the way reviews work without being wrong.

[Gibstov]

Not trying to be critical here, just wondering so that as the project moves forward finding out what went right and what went wrong.

I know the scope of the project is huge. But about rebuilding Morrowind, was the scope to large?

What was the time limit on meeting milestones. (Projects without time limits tend to never be completed)

Did the organizational structure of the project reflect the scope of the project? (Was it to hierarchical when is should have been divisional? Or was it too divisional where the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing? Was the organizational structure just right so that it was able to quickly adjust to changing constraints?)

What control systems are in place to ensure quality and timeliness of the deliverables? (Are the controls systems too loose causing alot of reworking of the deliverables. Are the control systems too tight, where people need to circumvent the control system to get work done, or just quit over frustration of the control systems? Or was the control systems fine where they ensure the quality and timeliness of the deliverables, while not constraining the modders from their creativity?)

What is the size of the teams for creating deliverables? (Are the teams too large with alot of members not doing anything, or are the teams to small where everyone is overworked, or are the teams the right size?)

What is the political climate of the project? (Do some people feel left out of the loop? Do people feel that they can circumvent the control systems because they know someone? Or is the political climate fine, where everyone gets along and there is no insider click, and no outsider click?)

Do you have any recommendations for going further?

[Haplo]

The organizational structure now is pretty much able to bend and flex to the needs of organization. The system is pretty much fine now, it's manpower we're lacking in, if anything.

[Nomadic1]

Indeed, IMO the only reason making Morrowind has largely stalled is due to a lack of manpower (that and fixing up Map 1). I think that everything as it is now is right. Claim sizes, maps, scope, OoT, etc. It only took a long time to figure out how to make it right. Even though Morrowind might never be finished, we can at least use what was learnt from making it to make the next province on the TESIVCS right from the word go.

[Morden]

If you think about it, TR has been one big experiment. Expect our Oblivion project to function much more smoothly.

[nietzsche]

...I admit those were pretty bad ideas
Perhaps they indeed don't belong to this project and would probably be too hard to do anyway. Perhaps I got little carried away in my imagining about the future possibilities of TR and Oblivion. Don't hate me please

[Morgoth]

...I admit those were pretty bad ideas
Perhaps they indeed don't belong to this project and would probably be too hard to do anyway. Perhaps I got little carried away in my imagining about the future possibilities of TR and Oblivion. Don't hate me please

Nah, everyone gets off a bad one once in a while. Just try to be more original.

[Savant]

Not trying to be critical here, just wondering so that as the project moves forward finding out what went right and what went wrong.

I know the scope of the project is huge. But about rebuilding Morrowind, was the scope to large?

What was the time limit on meeting milestones. (Projects without time limits tend to never be completed)

I think you might be on to something there. I always remember TR on a "finished when its finished" schedule. Perhaps this could be something to encorporate for our work on Oblivion--kinda like the due date we've just now received on Map 1 detailing.

And oh yeah, nietzsche, my major complaint wasn't that they were crappy ideas. It was just that I thought they belonged in a new thread altogether.

[xroninbasho23]

being new, superficially understanding that some people wanted to see more done with the slavery theme, finding the search tool somewhat ambiguous (though not entirely useless), and turning an eye to Dres, i was just dropping in to wonder if there was consideration of a slave raid or two as quests.

would it be possible to script something simple - a door between two areas, disguised as boat, dropping you off. somehow, you have to knock out or paralyze the natives and slap some bracers on them, at which point they do the old 'travel together' routine back to the boat. there could always be ways to tweak the slave needs: argonians for port work, khajit for jungle work, humans to appease your vampire lords...

i dunno. the idea simple comes from drawing some armors recently and considering what you would wear for a spec-ops style raid into jungle or swamp territory. any thoughts on this (or where i should go to further the idea)?

[Gez]

Everything will be reviewed eventually and there is no point in waiting instead of claiming something instead.

Unless the core gets bored with Morrowind before the unreviewed heap falls back to a two-digit number...

It is impossible to say you won't make something because of something about the way reviews work without being wrong.

It's not about the way reviews work, it's about the way TR cells are supposed to work. If a cell like Balmora's mages guild would not have been approved (you've said it yourself), that's not very encouraging. I feel I need to see how high the bar is before I jump again.

[Nomadic1]

You could just make interiors to the best of your ability.

[Garinator]

well i was part of this project a while ago and while i participated i enjoyed it thoroughly. I did get bored with the engine and now i come back to the forums every once in while to see how you guys are doing.
If you switch to the nxt cs I will definately come back and contribute. I also have a hunch that a lot of ex members will return as well. You have a great system down and the chance to start afresh will see my contributing again. (for whatever you think thats worth )

[Gez]

You could just make interiors to the best of your ability.

Simple examples: desks. Bethesda only made dunmer desks. Using de_ stuff in a non-dunmer interior is a no-no the size of the Moon for TR (but it's a "who cares?" for BethSoft).

As a result, everyone who has a desk has a dunmer desk. Including the Nords and Imperials on Solstheim.

Making a makeshift desk with a common table and a scaled-up chest can work in a lore-correct-way, but looks ugly.

So, if you go to the best of your aesthetical ability, you use a dunmer desk because there's nothing else. If you go to the best of your lore-abiding ability, you do something ugly. But both will be rejected at review.

The problem, thus, is finding the proper equilibrium.

[sirwootalot123]

I think this would be a good plan...
When oblivion comes out, we organise a team to start drawing the map for (next province), and coming up with different regions and such. While they're working, the rest of us finish all of our exterior work/detailing for morrowind province in the current engine, and release that to give an idea of how awesome TR will be in the oblivion engine.

Now, this is just me, but I think it would be neat if TR started by rebuilding Cyrodiil itself in a larger scale - since all the cities and locations (ruins, caves, etc) are in "pocket worlds", we would only have to rebuild the wilderness itself with the landgen tools. Then, we would add things like the Imperial City's slums. From here, we could do the next provinces in that same, astronomically more impressive and realistic scale.

Either way, if we stick with morrowind province 100% when oblivion comes out, we'll be digging a grave. I imagine members would flock away in droves to mod for Oblivion instead.

[Silverwood]

Woot is right. We should at least have a small lot of team members working on a map when it comes out. Adding slums and stuff just to make it larger seems like it would work.

So, are we going to set up a group for the maps? We have nearly three monthes.

[Lady Nerevar]

before we can start drawing the maps, there are still alot of decisions to be made. Like what province we are duing....

[Eraser]

I really like the idea of rescaling cyrodiil, the scale appears really disappointing. The big problem is breaking many quests, as well as how can we keep certain things the way they were(small wilderness settlements, dungeon exteriors etc) and rescale the wilderness in between? and we have to wait to see the game and editor to really make a judgement on such a thing.

[Sload]

Eraser and Sirwoot: This is a dream that only the two of you share interest in. No one is buying so maybe you should give up on selling.

[Orix]

Eraser and Sirwoot: This is a dream that only the two of you share interest in. No one is buying so maybe you should give up on selling.

Indeed, and doesn't TR have a policy to not meddle with stuff already made? I can see how it makes sense, but we've had this discussion before, and making things on a proper scale would probabaly be too much work and not worth the effort, but that's just my opinion.

[Eraser]

Eraser and Sirwoot: This is a dream that only the two of you share interest in. No one is buying so maybe you should give up on selling.

That time of the month sload? you don't speak for the whole of TR anymore than anyone else.

Scale is a serious issue. Places like stros M'kai might very well be impossible to make properly with OB's out of the box scale. it would wind up being the size of bal fell's island or similar.

As for not touching betheda's work, we may have to change that in ordr to stick to lore. OB isn't including the city of sutch, I think because that particular part of cyrodiil would be too filled with cities(unless its simply turned into a small settlement not counting in the 9 major cities) We can make TR's land a whole seperate exterior world and copy over OB's land and resize it.

[Dexter]

Hey, any of you have Oblivion yet?
No?
Then you don't know how big Cyrodiil really is yet, do you?
No?
Then until you do, maybe you should all stop acting like you know what you are talking about, because you just might look like an idiot when Oblivion does come out.
Just a friendly suggestion.

[Eraser]

and we have to wait to see the game and editor to really make a judgement on such a thing.

[Sload]

Eraser and Sirwoot: This is a dream that only the two of you share interest in. No one is buying so maybe you should give up on selling.

That time of the month sload? you don't speak for the whole of TR anymore than anyone else.

I do speak as a candid observer of the question who has seen absolutely 0 people agreeing with the two of you and has gotten tired of hearing this broken record.

[battle_bison]

Let's keep things friendly here, now. I am of the opinion that we should start streamlining this conversation towards something productive. A while ago I proposed an order of actions that I believe should be taken and a couple people seemed to agree with me. Since we know barely anything about Oblivion yet, we'll have to try to make as few assumptions as possible when deciding the next province to create. I do believe that we should decided this before Oblivion is released so that we can get some lore and concepts done. Perhaps it's even time to get that alternate Oblivion forum going where we can discuss what we have to about Oblivion.
I still feel though that we need to cover the first step: What is the next province? A member's poll would be nice so that it would be all democratic, or there could me a member's poll followed by a final core ruling on it so that those in charge decide what to do.

[Nomadic1]

For the next province, you can be 99% certain it will be Hammerfell or Skyrim.

As it stands though, we do not have enough lore to make Skyrim to TR standards. Therefore a vote on the matter before Oblivion is released is rather pointless, because if OB doesn't give us more Skyrim lore the next province would have to be Hammerfell or we would have to lower our lore standards.