Hammerfell Lore

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Hammerfell Lore

Post by Sload »

This is a thread for discussion of Hammerfell Lore. We had one for Argonia a while ago that was stuck. At the moment, I would prefer it if only TIL based lore was posted and conjectures were logically made off of them. Doodling in the white space can come later. This post will be editted with stuff from me soon.

[edited by Lady N, based on new PGE]

Things to do:
  • *More information on factions. Especially Forebears, Crowns, Alik'r Nomads (Dunedwellers) and Swordsingers (Halls of the Virtues of War)
    *Information on the ancient settlers. Dwemer (Rourken and Kragen clans) and Nedics.
    *Information on the southern and eastern region
    *More about the cities
Major Cities
Note: Major cities are cities are the ones with castles on the Arena map.

Hegathe -Was the original Ra-Gada capital, and probably is one of the oldest cities in Hammerfell, though it probably isn't older than Stros M'kai. It's name means "deathland" in aldmeri.

Rihad - Might also be an old city. This is where a scholar who translated ancient texts lived, and the PGE says that Redguards walk around naked, which is traditional. I doubt that they are actually naked, though they could be without a lot of clothing, because the PGE has a lot of misrepresentation. Rihad is a Forebear city.

Taneth - Taneth is a Forebear city ruled by Queen Clavilla.

Elinhir - The "capital" of Crown Hammerfell, Elinhir is ruled by High Prophet Ayaan-Si .He has called upon "True Crowns" of the north to rebel against Lhotun, and financed a number of forays against teh borders in Bergama and Dak'fron. Based on this call the land of Totambu has reeled against sentinel. Elinhir is located in the region conquered by Skyrim in the war of Bend'r-Mahk, there isn't much resistance however (I assume its because the Nords have little influence over it).

Dragonstar - Much like Berlin after WWII, Dragonstar is divided into eastern and western sections, each with their own culture and government, and each with an atmosphere of mistrust and fear. the eastern side is ruled by Skyrim, while the western side is Hammerfellian (Crown, I think, dues to its northern location). Featured in Shadowkey. [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/tsosk/dragonstar-annotated.jpg]MAP[/url]

Gilane - not in High Rock-- as listed in time line -- but in the south of Hammerfell. Near it, in the Alik'r dessert, lie the ruins of the Rourken clan's capital, Volenfel.

Skaven - The only thing said about this city is that a Hall of Virtues of War is in the wilderness "near" it. This tells us nothing about the city, because the hall probably predates it by quite a long time, and the Dragontail Mountains are probably the best place for such a hall.

Sentinel - Sentinel is one of the oldest cities in Hammerfell, and the Hammerfell.It is also teh "capital" of the Forbears. It is most definitely a merchant power, for it sits on a rocky run of hills, and the barren plains behind it offer no good soil before they run into the desert sands of the Alik'r. Its principal street is a vast marketplace stretching from the harbor all the way to the badlands gate. Sentinel Palace is the oldest and largest Redguard architectural monument, quickly built during the Ra Gada firestorm to ward against the Bretons and added to ever thereafter.Since its Imperial reorganization, Sentinel has become an exotic retreat for the nobility of Daggerfall and Wayrest, who delight in its native cooking, craftsmanship, and the bizarre morality-plays of its Royal Theater.

Following the Miracle of Peace, the Forebear kingdom of Sentinel grew to encompass the entirety of the northern coast of Hammerfell, from Abibon-Gora in the west to Satakalaam in the east, at the mouth of the Bjoulsae River. As most of the formerly independent lands in this northern area were Crown in sympathy, King Lhotun (son of king Camoran and queen Akorithi) has continually been involved in military diplomatic, and even in religious missions to keep them under his wing. Lhotun has been forced to create what some consider a third party, one with reverence for the Yokudan past but respect for the Imperial ways, which is appropriately enough called the Lhotunic. The Lhutonic lands make up the majority of Sentinel lands, and have attracted contempt from both sides. The land of Totambu, a crown province, has referred to his fold and declared independence from Sentinel.

Stros M'kai - Stros M'kai itself would be an unassuming little port, famous only for its Dwemer Ruins, were it not for its presently strategic location near the Cape of the Blue Divide, the waters of the dread Aldmeri Dominion. The mountain range on the islands is called Ogre Tooth Mountains. Although Stros M'kai originally served as a seat for Hammerfellian government, it is now a seat of the imperials (or it was at the time of TES: Redguard). As a "right of passage" the youths of Crown Totambu, must sail to the Dwemer Ruins of Stros M'kai, to avoid its deathtraps and "wrestle its mechanical men back into shape" before they can join the Knights of the Scarab. Morwha is worshiped here.[url=http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/redguard_map.jpg]MAP[/url]

Towns
note: towns are the houses with red roofs on the arena map

Sunkeep
Lainebon Place
Roseguard
North Hall
River Point
Vulnim Gate
Belkarth Guard
Heldorn Mount

Villages
note: villages are the small houses on the arena map

Dragon Grove
Shadymarch
Chaseguard
Stonemoor
Corten Mont
Carnver Falls
River View
Chasetown
Lainlyn
Vulkneu Town
Stonedale
Nimbel Moor
Cliff Keep
Thorstad Place
Velkarth City
Dragon Gate

Political Factions

Definitely more to come


Other Factions

Swordsingers/Halls of the Virtues of War - This is an ancient Ra Gada monastic organization dedicated to combat. They appear to be very very rare, many believe them to be gone completely. Perhaps this could be a Redguard-only thing, like we were discussing having one for each province once. They forge blades out of pure thought.


Regions

Alik'r Desert - Appears to run along the Iliac coast and the farthest west area of Hammerfell. May not be the only desert, however.

Dragontail Mountains - Mountains running across northern Hammerfell and parts of High Rock. Location of Fang Lair.

Timeline
Taken from TIL's time line

1E 376- The original Yokuda traditional rule of Emperors has been overthrown in 2012 in the old way of reckoning, and although each successive emperor remains as the figurehead of the empire, his powers are very much reduced. The Yokudans (later known as Redguards) see these 300 years of almost continuous civil war between the provincial lords, warrior monks and brigands, all fighting each other for land and power.
Source: Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes.

1E 420- One of the Dwemer factions, Rourken clan refuses to make peace with the Chimer, the clan makes themselves self-exiled and departs to the western part of Tamriel. They eventually arrive on Hammerfell and build their new home in that area. Some notes call them as The Left-Handed Elves. The legend says that the Rourken chieftain threw his mighty hammer, Volendrung, across Tamriel, promising to lead his clansmer to "wherever it should fall." This mythic image has been depicted on the walls of several ruins in Hammerfell: a mass exodus of golden-clad Dwemer, trudging through the Cyrodiilic forests, Volendrung a falling star in the night sky before them, urging them on. Not only the artifact Volendrung, The Rourken clan is also associated with the artifact known as The Spell Breaker. A Dwemeri Tower Shield that plays a major role in the Battle between The Rourken clan and the Wizard Shalidor.
Source: Pocket Guide to The Empire: Hammerfell, Artifacts of Elder Scrolls.

1E 477- Clan Direnni conquers High Rock, large parts of Skyrim and Hammerfell.

1E 609- on the continent of Yokuda (west of the continent of Tamriel), Mansel Sesnit becomes Elden Yokeda or a military dictator. He almost conquers all Yokuda in just a short eight years.

1E 617- Mansel Sesnit is assassinated. Randic Torn continues the work of unifying the Empire of Yokuda.

1E 720- Frandar Hunding, the great Yokudan (later known as Redguard) Sword Singer, is born in 2356 in the old way of reckoning, which is approximately 1E 720 in the current Tamrielic way of reckoning. A Sword Singer is basically a special fighter with a very intensive training and great devotion to the god of war; with this they can form a Shehai, a mystical spirit sword of pure energy, just from their pure thought.

1E 760- Divad Hunding, the only son of Frandar Hunding is born. From the Yokuda old way of reckoning, the year is 2396. This is a good moment in time to translate the Yokudan old way of reckoning in to current Tamrielic way of reckoning. However some experts say that the old Yokudan way of reckoning is not exactly 360 days like Tamrielic calendar, so there is the possibility of a mistake in the translation, but this is at most a minor mistake of approximately one year more or less.

1E 780- After all the battles and continuous fights, Frandar Hunding believes that he is invincible, and then he chooses to live as a hermit. He composes the Book of Circle, a philosophy book of the Way of the Sword.

1E 808- The Yokudans arrives at Hammerfell after a catastrophic disaster on the continent of Yokuda. The powerful Yokudan warriors (who are later known as the Forebears faction of Redguard society) are the first ones to arrive in Hammerfell. The first Yokudan wave that first arrived in Hammerfell is known as The Warrior Wave or "Ra Gada". They drive the aboriginal beastfolk (mostly goblin) and the nedic (human) settlers out of the land, effectively making a secure way for the king and Na-Totambu ruling class (who are later known as the Crowns faction of the Redguard society) that arrive later after Hammerfell has been conquered.

Frandar Hunding is among the first who comes and investigates the new land. Hunding's party is ambushed by the goblins under the lead of Malooc. Frandar Hunding dies on the assault. Later on, in order to end the assaults of the goblin horde that seemingly has unlimited number, Divad, the son of Frandar Hunding, forges five swords and imbues them with the magic of the Spirit Sword. Then Divad and the five Ansei who wield the five magical swords face the goblin horde and finally able to destroy them once and for all. After the final battle the five Ansei and Divad climb the northern mountains. The Ansei hide themselves, guarding the swords. Divad returns to Hammerfell and passes away short after. Although, Hunding is killed in the first battle, but the Redguard reveres him as the god who makes the way for the people.

The Yokudans, who later get the name "Redguard" from "Ra Gada"", claim Hammerfell as their new homeland. The beastfolk refugees escape from Hammerfell and join the Orcs of the Orsinium in the Wrothgarian Mountain; strengthening the Orsinium.

1E 948- The mighty Orsinium becomes a great threat to the neighboring kingdoms. King Joile of Daggerfall sends a letter to Gaiden Shinji of the Order of Diagna, proposing a joint attack on Orsinium. And an alliance is formed.

1E 950-1E 980- The Bretony forces of Daggerfall, the Redguard army of Sentinel and Order of Diagna join forces to invade Orsinium. However, the Orcish kingdom of Orsinium proves to be too powerful. The "Siege of Orsinium" takes a long 30 years, taking great warriors and heroes. Among them are the famous sword master Gaiden Shinji. To this day, the Orcs are still renowned for their battle prowess.

1E 973- Makela Leki's memory stone is found in the Bankorai Pass of the Wrothgarian Mountains. The stone records her last battle, when she guards the Bankorai Pass from the army of King Joile of Daggerfall, their own ally in the Siege of Orsinium!

1E 983- With opening of Bjoulsae River, open trade between provinces [High Rock and Hammerfell] flourishes. Great social and technological boosts, including writing, ensue.

1E 2200- The Thrassian Plague destroys over half of the population of Tamriel. The plague is released by a tribe of beastmen called Sload from the coral kingdom of Thras. Nobility from Daggerfall, Sentinel, and Wayrest escape to the Isle of Balfiera.

2E 638- The Mages Guild of Stros M'Kai is fully chartered.

2E 831- Cyrus the famous Redguard mercenary is born.

2E 862- The Empire of Tiber Septim sweeps through the kingdoms of Tamriel in a glorious bid for conquest. Septim is opposed on all sides, but never more fiercely than by Hammerfell, the home of the Redguards. The High King of Hammerfell, Thassad II, resists the Imperial invasions even as he sees other kingdoms crumble, until, at last, without warning and surprisingly devoid of court treachery, death takes its full measure. With its High King dead, Hammerfell is crippled, plunging into a bloody civil war between the Crowns, fighting for their homeland's continued sovereignty, and the Forebears, who have finally accepted the Emperor's rule. Crown Prince A'tor, son of Thassad and heir to Hammerfell, leads his forces in continual victory over the Forebears. But the latter make a pact with the Emperor, which allows Tiber Septim to bring his armies in and crush the weakened Crown forces.

Prince A'tor is forced to leave the mainland, and retreats to Stros M'Kai, the ancestral seat of the Crowns. Septim's force continues to press the weakened Crowns. At the harbor of Stros M'Kai, The Battle of Hunding Bay rages. The Imperial force faces Prince A'tor, and intends to destroy the Crowns’ resistance once and for all. The Prince and his followers fight bravely. The Imperial is nearly defeated, until the Dunmer Assassin, Dram, shoots his poisonous arrow at the Prince. Archmage Voa, the friend of the Prince and sympathizer of the Crowns' struggle tries to save the Prince, but the Dragon Nafaalilargus burns down the ship and ends the Crowns' effort to win the battle.

Fearing eventual rebellion from the headstrong Redguards, who have never suffered long under a foreign ruler, Tiber Septim establishes Imperial garrisons in every city of Hammerfell. Lord Richton, the man who beat A'tor at the Battle of Stros M'kai, is appointed Provisional Governor of that city.

2E 864- The Battle of Hunding Bay officially marks the end of men (human) resistances. However, Tiber Septim knows that the might of his powerful army is not enough for his fledgling Empire. Therefore a pamphlet was released to the public. The pamphlet is known as The Pocket Guide to The Empire. Although the pamphlet is full of Septim's propaganda (for weakening the elves/mer), it is the first good account that has details information about each part of Tamriel.

Opposed to what the Empire thought, not all the humans of Tamriel have been subdued, in the Stros M'Kai, Cyrus the mercenary manages to move the Restless League to start a rebellion. They successfully destroy the Imperial Fleet and route the Legion. Armed with the Soulsword of Prince A’tor, Cyrus faces the Governor Amiel Richton on the top of a Dwemeri Dirigible. Although Cyrus is defeated by treachery, but the Soulsword has will of its own, and moves by itself, slaying the Governor and Dram, the Dunmeri Assassin. Eventually, The Emperor Tiber Septim is forced to sue for peace on terms favorable to Hammerfell.

3E 114- Destri Melarg (3E 20-3E 114), a well known Redguard historian and translator of old Redguard verse, dies. "Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes" is one of Destri Melarg's works that is published in the Imperial City by Melius Kane.

3E 253- At the Battle of Dragontooth, the Camoran Usurper defeats the armies of Taneth and Rihad of Hammerfell. Southern Hammerfell falls.

3E 336- Nulfaga, a powerful sorceress and the mother to the future Daggerfall King Lysandus, is born.

3E 368- In Hammerfell, Cameron, the future King of Sentinel, is born.

3E 369- Akorithi, future Queen of Sentinel and wife to Cameron, is born.

3E 385- the "first" prince of Sentinel, Hammerfell is born to Cameron and Akorithi. He has poor health and is weak. The name of this prince and his fate is never known to the public and it is just said that the Underking took him for no apparent reason. In the later days, the fate of this prince resurfaces. His name is Arthago.

3E 392- Greklith is born to Cameron and Akorithi, rulers of Sentinel. In the same year, Carolyna, Queen of Wayrest and wife of Eadwyre, dies.

3E 393- Lhotun is born to Cameron and Akorithi, rulers of Sentinel.

3E 396-3E 397- The War of the Bend'r-mahk. Skyrim destroys the combined forces of Hammerfell and High Rock. The eastern part of Dragonstar city of Hammerfell falls to the Skyrim force led by General Duvais; while the Hammerfell force regroups and defends the western region of the city. Both forces build walls that separate the city permanently into two regions. The wall that separates the city still exists to these days, and the eastern region is still occupied by Skyrim – creating political obstacle between the two Provinces.

3E 397- Shadowmage Skelos Undriel is on the run, with agents of the Battlemage Jagar Tharn in close pursuit. He flees from the center of the Tamrielic Empire to the Western Reach, where the borders of High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim meet. These three regions are engaged in a bitter conflict, The War of the Bend'r-mahk. Undriel manages to recruit a young adventurer to collect magical objects called Shadowkey and in turn to gather Star Teeth. With the help from Azra Nightwielder (the greatest of Shadowmages), the young adventurer manages to collect all the Star Teeth, destroys Tharn's underlings and defeats the daunting shadow power of Umbra'Keth.

3E 400- Arthago, the Ill-fated first prince of Sentinel, Hammerfell, is sent to Castle Faalem. He was left there to die, to make a smoother way to the throne for his stronger brother Greklith. Lhotun (the official second prince of Sentinel) learns about the fate of his older brother from the mysterious Daggerfall hero. The name of this prince is Arthago.

3E 401- Nulfaga of Daggerfall, High Rock, finds the exact location of the Mantella, the heart of Numidium. At this time the Blades has managed to collect most of the Numidium pieces, even the Totem of Tiber Septim has already in their grasp. Nulfaga promises to tell the location to the Blades (The Emperor) if any of Daggerfall's holds would not be destroyed. The Emperor cannot accept this and then he sends a letter to the Lady Brisienna Magnessen, the sister of the Great Knight of the Blades, which has already infiltrated Daggerfall court; asking her to do anything necessary to get the location of the Mantella. Although, the letter is addressed to the Queen of Daggerfall, The Emperor knows that the letter would arrive in Lady Brisienna's hands first. However the courier is late due to the War of Betony. Although the letter is eventually delivered, but it arrives in different hands. Lady Brisienna never receives the letter.

3E 402- War of Betony begins. A war between Sentinel of Hammerfell and Daggerfall of High Rock. Lord Mogref of Betony Island for monetary reasons agrees to vassal himself and the rest of Betony to King Lysandus of Daggerfall. King Camaron of Sentinel objects. The war is not avoided.

3E 403- During the War of Betony, the Lord of Reich Gradkeep tries to facilitate the peace negotiation between two warring city-state. In the appointed day, King Lysandus of Daggerfall and King Camaron of Sentinel meet at the Palace of Reich Gradkeep for a truce. However this treaty is never to be. Daggerfall Priest Vanech considered the Betony to be a holy land of Kynareth; any attempt to give up the island is blasphemous for him. Vanech fakes the treaty, and this false treaty offends Lysandus. The room disrupts into chaos. King Camaron knows of Vanech's treachery, pursues and finally slays the priest. However, the chaos is too severe, a great riot breaks throughout the Reich Gradkeep capitol. The entire family of Reich Gradkeep is killed. The only surviving member of the ruling family of Reich Gradkeep is a sickly infant. So the councilors of the state choose Lord Auberon Flyte to rule the lordship in regency. The state is now known as Anticlere as his ancestral home.

The war continues and takes its climax in the Cryngaine Field. King Lysandus is slain in the field. Gothryd, son of King Lysandus, is crowned King of Daggerfall. Inspired with the new King's bravery the Daggerfall force fights with new determination. Lord Bridwell, the leader of the Knights of the Dragon, slays King Camaron. The Sentinel army retreat in disorder. Lord Oresme of Sentinel surrenders; he commits suicide in the way back to Sentinel.

3E 404- Gothryd marries Aubk-i. Aubk-i is now the Queen of Daggerfall. The letter from The Emperor Uriel Septim VII arrives to her hand. Confused of the contents of the letter, eventually she sells the letter to the highest bidder, King Gortworg of the Orsinium. Gortworg has no idea what the Mantella is; he consults the King of Worms of the Necromancer. The confidential information about Numidium is spread out.
Last edited by Sload on Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Resadyn
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Post by Resadyn »

Thats some great lore there, I never played Daggerfall, so I can't help out, but I'll be coming back to this page for updates frequently.
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Post by Macar »

I am in favor of this being made sticky. I too never played TES games before morrowind. I'm interested in the culture, because the stuff I've read dosent give me much of an image other that that there are lots of pirates.
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Post by Morgoth »

Yes, this should be made a sticky. We'll need as much lore as we can get.
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Post by Zalzidrax »

I wonder if my friend sill has a copy of Redguard. It's set in Stros M'kai, and so has a great deal of information about the town at the very least.

If we do Stros M'kai, we should definitely put statues of Cyrus and Iszara in somewhere.
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Post by Gez »

Gilane is firmly in Hammerfell in the [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/arena_hammerfell.shtml]Arena map[/url]. It's the city-state that controls the entrance to the isthma leading to the Hnes Rax (the peninsula without any major settlement, according to [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/minibigmaproadslore35jr.jpg]Arthmodeus' map[/url]).

It was not on the Daggerfall map, proving that in this game too, it was too far from the Iliac Bay to reasonably have been part of High Rock. The timeline is thus wrong. It may have been a confusion with Jehanna, a city-state in High Rock, bordering Skyrim.


Rihad, IIRC, is ruled by a Queen which revealed to the anonymous champion the location of Fang Lair, where he found the first piece of the Staff of Chaos.
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Post by Sload »

I know where it is on the map, but the problem is that the timeline says it was in High Rock. This should probably be brought up on the storyboard.
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Post by sirwootalot123 »

Here's some various images showing redguard fashion, creatures and architechture, mostly from the comic book.

Sea Serpent
[img]http://til.gamingsource.net/gallery/rg_serpent.gif[/img]

Various armor/architechture
http://elderscrolls.com/images/comic_book/27B.jpg

There's alot of other stuff that I'd have to cut out with photoshop (and eventually will), but I have to run off for some last-second christmas shopping now.
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Post by Eraser »

Straight from daggerfall( augmented by uesp)

Kingdoms and regions:
Abibon-Gora-knights of the wheel
Kairou
Pothago
Myrkwesa
Sentinel(kingdom surrounding the city)-knights of the moon/replaced by order of the candle
Cybiades
Ayasofya
Antiphyllos
Bergama
Dak'fron
Tigonus
Santaki-order of the hawk
Lainlyn
Kozanset
Satakalaam
Mournoth
Totambu-knights of the scarab
Ephesus

My spelling needs to be checked, and I need to research, which exactly are kingdoms themselves, and which are geographical regions. Many of the kingdoms have their own knight/guard faction to go along with it.

orders/factions
"Knights of the Hawk
Another knightly order found in the cities of Antypyllos and Santaki in the Iliac Bay area"

Order of diagna- general hammerfell area

Ra'Gada (as a faction)"A holy-avenging order of Hammerfell which strongly opposed outsiders during the 1E. Thge Ra Gada was mostly responsible for preventing the Allessian Doctrines from having a strong presence in Hammerfell. "

Restless league-"A Crown organization starting after the defeat of Prince A'tor at the Battle of Hunding Bay in and around Stros M'kai"
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Post by Macar »

Can anyone shed light on the "Rihad"? Are they some sort of cultists. I read somthing about them covering themselves with mud, and biteing people (in the pocket guide).
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Post by Lady Nerevar »

well, the pocket guide is mostly propoganda, so we dont realy know if the biting people thing is real. ill see what else i can find on this city.
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Post by Sload »

Rihad is a city. The PGE is saying that some Redguards run around naked, but covered in mud, and bite people. I doubt this is more than propoganda.
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Hammerfell Map

Post by Pythearon »

I was referring to this:

http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/shadowkey-map01.jpg

Its a map that was drawn by bethesda developerand then released. I figured you all had seen this.

The . was a mistake. Thats not what was meant to go there lol.
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Post by Xui'al »

That map is simply to small of a portion of Hammerfell to be of use. Sure we may refer to it when we are at the Skyrim/Hammerfell/High Rock border, but other than that it isn't that usefull. It also seems to primarily show dungeons from Shadowkey.

Does anyone know the date of Shadowkey?
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Post by Resadyn »

Why didnt you just edit your other post?
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Wrong buttons

Post by Pythearon »

Im gettin used to this forum. I hit new topic instead of reply. Fell free to delete this if youa moderator. As far as the map goes: I know its not a lot of help but its the only thing that is kinda sorta textured that ive really seen for hammerfell..I wasnt really looking for locations. Thats also assuming Bethesda dosent switch it up.
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Post by Nomadic1 »

Shadowkey took place during the Jagar Tharn period. Therefore, it was probably going on when Arena took place, so maybe 20 - 30 years ago?
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Post by Arthmodeus »

Well, the map I did used Shadowkey stuff...
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Post by Swiftoak »

hmmm, this could be useful. Im very excited. Hey Arth, have you updated MoT yet?
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Post by Arthmodeus »

Having lots of trouble with Photoshop I won't be able to work on it til I give the file to Stalker.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Who did those water textures on Skyrim? Does anyone know how to do them?
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Post by Zephyr »

I'm not sure what's going on here, Swiftoak, but I'm already working on the map. Perhaps I just misunderstood you.

As to answer to your question, prometheus did the skyrim map, if that's what you meant.

The current version of the map is here, http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hf.jpg
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Post by Eraser »

Nice map zeph!

Not as intricately detailed as prom's or moorhk's, but just showing the general regions. Leaves alot of freedom for modders (and oblivion's generator doing natural erosion)

One criticism though, the area directly around sentinel is all desert.
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Post by Arthmodeus »

Only the Western area is close to being finished. The finished product will be as good as/better than Prom's.
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Post by Zephyr »

Eraser, are you sure? There are some sources saying that western HF is a rather dry country encircled by lush areas in a horseshoe manner.
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Post by Majra »

The best way to check is to play Daggerfall. I remember when playing Daggerfall that when you walk out of sentinel it is all sand, with patches of desert brush. The closer you get to the water the greener it becomes. But in my memory, the jungle and forests resided almost solely in the eastern portion. The coastline was more sparse vegetation

Think oasises. Where you find oasises would be in valleyed areas between the mountainous areas of the south and north. There you would find the pockets of lush vegetation you are speaking of, not closer to the coastline. (salt water = bad for real growth)

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Post by Zephyr »

Majra: You're right, but the way I've positioned the mountains makes it so that all the rainfall would end up on the coast anyways, because they block the way to the desert. That's my reasoning (along with the horseshoe thing I got from some lore book I think) for having the vegetation on coast.

I would definitely be interested in what Daggerfall is like in the HF areas so that the map could be made as accurate as possible. For one, is Sentinel a coastal city or not? If there are some small towns worth mentioning, caves and so on, what are their locations and names? If someone can play Daggerfall and look for these things, I think it would really help in making the map, and eventually the final product more accurate.
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Post by Swiftoak »

Shit nice job Zephyr. Ill let you have it. Though i did voulounteer to do it some time ago. I did post a thread sometime in the summer. Oh well good job. Did you use fireworks or photoshop?
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Post by Majra »

Ok well lets start from the top. Now in Daggerfall, I believe I remember Sentinel being very close to the water, (and looking at the Arena map it concurs that as well. If I remember correctly the shape around the city was a peninsula basically and all around it was the Iliac Bay (on 3 sides if you walk out the city) I also remember Sentinel was the one large city in HF that did not have the desert look in Terrain or in architecture. It was much like Daggerfall in style in fact if Im not mistaken. (jeez I need to find a way to make my old DF game work to check on all this). Now south of sentinel is Alik'r Desert of course, where i suspect there would be mountains similar to Afghanistan or Iran (plateuaed in nature with caves) But not real "peaked" mountains. To the east of that would of course be the dragontail mountains where you would see more of the temperate rainforest occuring high up turning into plain old ice tops mountains with tundra and what not. Through there you could prolly have some nifty mountain passes, winding roads up and around etc. and that would mark your provincial rain divide. (the highest point in Hammerfell)

At the bottom of each side you would have lush jungle and hills (on the north and east side they are in the region called Totambu)

------------------

Now to the question of cities

To the north and east of sentinel is the isle of cybiades which I remember correctly is fairly wild, lots of baddies. You also have Lainlyn which is a fairly moderate sized town mentioned in both Daggerfall and Arena. Along the border with Imp. Province is Elinhir on the far east of the province, and at the far south along the imperial province border is Rihad. These two cities in Arena were hardcore arabic. Belly dancer uniforms, palm trees, and brick mud housing.

--------------------

Now to things that might be off on the map. In my opinion the Dragontail mountains were meant to be for real mountains, with very large peaks. And I believe it truly runs (look at the old arena map on TIL to see the locations of these towns) from the coast line (there should be tall cliffs) between Sentinel and Lainlyn all the way to Vulnum gate with a valley between Lainlyn and Riverpoint, Riverpoint being a town within that valley along the river that would run through it. Then rising very quickly with the highest town in the province being Corten Mont (though it should be named something non french when we make it) staying high through down to rihad and basically have a defined range along the border of the imperial province connecting to that. Then if you travel north along the province border around stonedale I believe we would start goin to foothills and by Elinhir it should be lush jungles all around there. I say that because North and west of Elinhir we start rising quickly again (though not to as high a point) with the Wrothgarian Mountains which should run all along the border between skyrim, HF, and HR. (from fang lair to "dragonstar" and Skaven. The foothills would be around where Thorstad Place is. And this range has an enormous valley right along the border between all three provinces which seperate them geographically.

The most important thing is the location of the valleys in those mountains, they should be around where Riverpoint and River view is on the arena map. And whatever towns go there should be river towns. (most of these town names will be unusable of course)


A couple more things. I believe the two valleys that occur at River point and Riverview should be very different in nature. One should be very drastic and rapid like (River point) and the other a slow running mountain river (river view). These two rivers should both flow and converge just north of where Karnver Falls is on the map, and flow quickly down stream to a very large system of falls. which dramatically reduce the elevation. And the river that comes from that should feed to the bay that Taneth sits on, with Taneth being at the mouth of the river and coast.


I hope some of that might help, this is prolly the most Ive contributed since my absence, and Im really excited about joining again.
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Post by Moorkh »

Alright, found some time today and collected some stuff:

In Arena I found the following on various settlements (of course all of this is dated by several decades):

City-states:

Sentinel
Ruler: King Coade
Climate: mountains
Special: port
Introduction:"Weary traveler, thou art entering
Sentinel, the guardian of Starfall Bay.
Learn what it is to be survivors, for
amongst enemies we stand alone..."
Arena Introduction:"Weary traveler, thou art entering Sentinel, the holding of %t %rf and
Guardian of Starfall Bay. Attend our
team, the Deathbringers, and learn what
it is to be warriors, for we stand alone..."

Hegathe
Ruler: Queen Ghabimli
Climate: forest
Special: port, curse of bad health (might be random, not sure)
Introduction:"Hegathe bids you welcome,
and good fortune. We are home many
who would seek the paths of danger.
Not a deadlier challenge wouldst
thou face elsewhere..."
Arena Introduction:"Hegathe and %t %rf bid you welcome, and good fortune. We are home to the
Bloodhorns, and not a deadlier challenge
wouldst thou face elsewhere..."

Dragonstar
Ruler: King Dhotan
Climate: mountains
Special: river
Introduction:"Welcome to Dragonstar, home of the sacred rage. We wish thee peace and
rest in our City-State, but conduct
thyselves honorably, or thou shalt
answer to our guards..."
Arena Introduction:"Welcome to Dragonstar, home of the Sacred Rage. We wish thee peace and
rest in our city-state, but conduct
thyselves honorably, or thou shalt answer
to our champions..."

Skaven
Ruler: Queen Mijurti
Climate: desert
Special: abundance of temples
Introduction:"Know that we of Skaven welcome
thee, for it is rare indeed to
receive travelers brave enough
to stand under the shadow of our
land..."
Arena Introduction:"Know that we of Skaven welcome thee, for it is rare indeed to receive travelers brave enough to stand under the shadow of Fang Lair. Our team, the Guards,
stand ready..."

Taneth
Ruler: King Lhezem
Climate: desert
Special: port, abundance of taverns
Introduction:"The port city of Taneth welcomes
thee unto its soil. We bids thee,
be not fearful of this world, but
stand forward tall and proud..."
Arena Introduction:"The port city of Taneth welcomes thee unto its soil. %t %rf bids be not fearful of the Arena, but stand forward tall and proud, as our team the War Eagles do,
for here they are home..."

Gilane
Ruler: King Coc
Climate: desert
Special: port, abundance of temples
Introduction:"Gilane, the southern port of
Hammerfell, welcomes thee into
its walls. We stand ready for
all who would come to us in peace..."
Arena Introduction:"Gilane, the southern port of Hammerfell,
welcomes thee into its walls. %t %rf and
the Dire Wolves stand ready for all who
would test their mettle..."

Rihad
Ruler: Queen Blubamka
Climate: desert
Special: port
Introduction:"Rihad, southern most port of
Hammerfell, welcomes thee.
Lay aside thy vice and avarice
and enter these walls as nobles.
We wish you only a long life and
prosperity..."
Arena Introduction:"Rihad, southern most port of Hammerfell, welcomes thee. Lay aside
thy vice and avarice and enter these walls
as nobles. Do not however seek to
challenge the Bane, who call this home.
We wish you only a long life and
prosperity..."

Elinhir
Ruler: Queen Fhimke-i
Climate: mountains
Special: plenty of taverns
Introduction:"Thou art welcome in Elinhir,
guardian of the West. Many
name this home. Be cautious,
lest ye draw their wrath upon
thy heads..."
Arena Introduction:"Thou art welcome in Elinhir by %t %rf, Guardian of the West. The Blackcasters name this home. Be cautious, lest ye draw their wrath upon thy heads..."

(...to be continued...)
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Post by Moorkh »

(part 2)

Towns:

Sunkeep
Climate: forest
Special: nothing

Vulnim Gate
Climate: desert
Special: magnificent gardens

Lainebon Place
Climate: desert
Special: port, ruler: Prince Fanta (sic!)

Heldorn Mount
Climate: desert
Special: small river

Riverpoint
Climate: desert
Special: no river!

Roseguard
Climate: desert
Special: port, magnificent gardens

Belkarth Guard
Climate: mountains
Special: lake next to town

North Hall
Climate: desert
Special: not in the north; oddly regular setup of buildings - recently established?


Villages:


Lainlyn
Climate: forest
Special: nothing

Chasetown
Climate: mountains
Special: nothing

Dragon Grove
Climate: forest
Special: river

Thorstad Place
Climate: mountains
Special: river

Riverview
Climate: desert
Special: no river in view

Shadymarch
Climate: desert
Special: no shade at all

Verkarth City
Climate: desert
Special: a city? not likely

Cliff Keep
Climate: desert
Special: river

Dragon Gate
Climate: desert
Special: nothing

Nimbel Moor
Climate: mountains
Special: nothing

Stonedale
Climate: desert
Special: surrounded by small lakes

Vulkneu Town
Climate: desert
Special: nothing

Corten Mont
Climate: desert
Special: palace in huge hedge maze, some lakes

Chaseguard
Climate: desert
Special: river, port

Karnver Falls
Climate: desert
Special: some lakes, but nothing to fall from; consists exclusively of small houses, no larger buildings

Stonemoor
Climate: desert
Special: river

(will add stuff from Daggerfall tomorrow)
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Post by Zephyr »

You have some interesting points. However, I'm fairly certain that Dragontail mountains go to northeast, not southeast where Corten Mont is. I was thinking of the highest point being Heldom mount, which is not far from Dragonstar. Another possibility for the peak would be Dragon Gate, but for some reason that's not even shown in Arth's map which I'm using as a source. It is shown on the Hammerfell map at http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/ though.

I think you've also mixed up Riverpoint and Riverview in the description; it would make little sense to have a valley between Lainlyn and Riverpoint, as the distance between them is like a third of Hammerfell's width. As for Riverview and Lainlyn though, a valley would make sense according to the Arena map as well so I'm going to carve one there.

The waterfall stuff is really interesting, but I don't think that a river from Riverview would run that long of a distance just to get there. Instead, there should be other rivers to join in the waterfall cluster. In Arena map, there's an L shape formed by Riverpoint, Karnver Falls and Verkath City that seems to have lush vegetation, ie. a valley. So here's how I think the rivers could be formed:

[img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfsketch.jpg[/img]

As for Alik'r, I will fix the mountains to be less peaked.
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Post by Moorkh »

Information on lore and geography in Daggerfall is evidently pretty much restricted to books and dialogues, which I haven't had time to delve into, yet. Merely visiting towns and places does not yield much information, but I'll post what I can.

The part of Daggerfall's map belonging to Hammerfell is divided into 20 smaller districts of vastly different sizes. Each district is named after its main city and shares some properties such as climate, architecture, vegetation and ethnicity. There are 4 different types to be found in Hammerfell:

mountains
setting: mountain background, conifers, stone buildings
race: imperial or breton
districts:
Dragontail Mountains (18 settlements of the largest category)
Ephesus (1)

jungle
setting: forest background, lush exotic vegetation, overgrown stone buildings
race: redguard
districts:
Mournoth (13)
Safakalaam (5)
Totambu (27)
Kozanset (1)
Lainlyn (8)

desert
setting: mountain background, very little vegetation (cacti), sandstone buildings
race: redguard
districts:
Santaki (1)
Antipyllos (2)
Bergama (5)
Alik'r Desert (13)
Dak'fron (0)

mediterranean
setting: forest background, sparse mediterranean vegetation, mud buildings
race: imperial or breton
districts:
Abibon-Gora (5)
Kairou (3)
Pothago (1)
Myrkwasa (2)
Sentinel (15)
Ayasofya (4)
Tigonus (17)
Cybiades? (no settlements at all - just a dungeon)

I actually went through the trouble of listing the names of all major settlements, but I'm not sure if it is worth the effort of typing them here.
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Post by Eraser »

Don't bother with arena information. It really wasn't fleshed out nearly enough to use in tes4. Besides, we know from daggerfall, that rulers have changed since arena.
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Post by Moorkh »

Of course rulers have changed. Other things likely haven't. And since you're still considering the towns from Arena the major ones (and have in MW, also), I guess the little lore we find in Arena is still better thn nothing at all...

...anyhow, of course, if you have already discussed what is and what isn't considered dogmatic (I have a strong guess you have), please do point me to what decisions you have come to. I do not relish in vain efforts... ;)
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Post by Eraser »

For one, they've changed starfall bay to the illiac bay.
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Post by Stalker »

Even if Arena lore has changed we can still take some stuff from it. City info in particular. Daggerfall lore would also be useful. Redguard lore would be most useful (from games featuring HF I mean).
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Post by Sload »

Old knowledge is better than no knowledge.
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Post by Moorkh »

Relevant lore from the books in Daggerfall:

Lainlyn:
- ruled by a baron(ess) (book file bok00020.txt)
- many harpies (0020)

Sentinel:
- Pelagius used to be king of Sentinel (0042)
- Sentinel used cannons recently lost War of Betony against Daggerfall (0070)

Abibon-Gora:
- the sun is worshipped in this town in midsummer (but nowhere else) (0033)

Satakalaam:
- the people here still worship an ancient dead serpent god (0033)

Iliac Bay:
- the Iliac bay is plagued by many pirates (0084)

Fang Lair:
- used to be a dwarven mithril mine (0106)
- mountains surrounding it are called 'dragon's teeth' (0106)

Alik'r Desert:
- sands of the desert cover ruins (0085)
- desert baronies have vague borders with the rest of the desert (0085)

Hegathe:
- the Blood Queen Alimahera ruled in Hegathe 2E412 in cooperation with the Dark Brotherhood (0026)

Rihad:
- there is a slave market for concubines in Rihad (0047)

Skaven:
- the knowledge of how to create a swordsinger's fabled spirit sword is kept by followers of the old Redguard ways around Skaven (0087)

Other places:
- battlefield near a town called 'Ichidag' (Uriel III lost and was captured in 3E 127; 0029)
- there is a so-called "Banthan Jungle", likely the one in the SE DF area (0033)

Hammerfell general:
- gingko trees grow around its lakes (0027)
- wereboars and werewolves are the predominant lycanthropes of HF (0036)
- Hammerfell was conquered in 3E267 by the Camoran Usurper (0041)
- Gyron Vardengroet spent time in Hammerfell (0054)
- Ius, god of animals, is revered in parts of HF (0071)
- before the Redguards came and the glorious Septim Empire was formed, the goblins had driven the dwarves out of Hammerfell (0100)
- extinct Order of Diagna was active in HF prior to defeat of Orsinium (0022)
- one of the 5 swords that closed the goblin gate is supposed to be hidden in HF (0087)
- all the old dwarven cities in HF are still settled by humans today - except for Dwarfhome, the dwaven ghost city (0087)

Redguards:
- cultivate their own language, 'Old Redguard' (0085)
- nothing has worth to Redguards unless they had to struggle to gain it (0085)
- they are descended from a exiled caste of warriors (swordsingers) who were led to Tamriel from a desert empire by one Frandar Hunding (0004)
- the Book of Circles holds the ancient sacred traditions of the Redguards (0087)
- the Redguards have stopped a second invasion by the goblins from the void (0087)

Relevant lore from the quest dialogues of Daggerfall:

-There is a dungeon worthy of note in the Dragontail Mountains called Scourg Barrow. I don't currently have its location but will track it down for the map.

-King Cameron ruled all of HF from Sentinel.

Not much else worth mentioning in those dialogue files :(
Last edited by Moorkh on Fri Dec 30, 2005 12:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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