Black Light: The Never To Be Seen

[Pythearon]

Hey guys, since this version of blacklight wont be added (my version) to TR, i was wanting some feed back on the curent layout. Im doing this for fun since i really have nothing else to do so any suggestions or criticism is appreciated. I added the Imperial District for two reasons:

1)Due to the location and general influenceof the imperials, i believe that the imperials would have an out post here to control some trade going in and out of vvardenfall.

2)TR made Black Light Hlaalu, and as we all know, Hlaalu are the imperial ass kissers.

Besides that, as you will see, a lot of the detailing, terrain texturing, and item placement isnt done. I am planning on a busy-body type of market in that empty spot off the docks. As far as the general road and city item detailing, i think ive done about 4 buildings in the hlaalu district. The interiors that are done within the imperial district are just interiors left over from the old version that have been toned up and fixed lore wise (as well as takin out all that super armor crap). There are still a few Black Guards millin around but only because I havent gotten to them yet.

I plan to keep workin on this so anything you all have to add would be great and anyone that wants to submit some interiors to me that they are building for Vernon's version would be great. Itll save me some time and since your doin it anyway...

Just ignore all the floating doors btw. Those are just interiors that have to be taking out in TESAME, so theyre out there so i dont forget. Only the east side of the town is actually done so no need to criticize the crap to the side where the messed up keep was, and i havent even touched the redoran part of it yet. I was also thinking of adding main gates but im not sure what that would really do lore wise seeing as ive never seen hlaalu as the type to heavily fortify entire towns. If someone on lore sees this, could ya get back to me about that before i script it?

Well, thanks ahead of time for whoever actually looks at this.

EDIT: Also for anyone that thinks the building into the walls thing in the imperial district is wierd, I did this because that is how it was done in RL medieval times to save space. I llooks a hell of a lot better too.

[Pythearon]

Ok well im not gettin any feed back and since this isnt my claim then ill just stop. This is my final version ( as far as i got) and its posted for Vernon. Any comments on the city, I can generally be found on IRC.

[Dexter]

Now, this may just be an extreme oddity on my end, but when I load it, there is a massive cluster of doors and door markers all in one place in -20, 12. The city itself is okay, but a bit lackluster. I personally don't like how it just seems to hug the water, and not expand outward too far from it. And what's with the Daedric stone texture?
My advice would be to make it totally Hlaalu, take the city block structure that you have in the Hlaalu portion, and spread out from that.

[Pythearon]

Ok, well i just got back from a new years party and I may missunderstand but, the massive jumble of door is interiors that need to be deleted and the imperial presense within the city not only adds flare, but also shows the fact that the imperials would not leave this area up to free trade let alone it being hlaalu. The fact that it hugs the water...THAT IS REAL!!! That is the way that towns were built back then. I hate to break it to ya but why dont you take a nice look at the largest hlaalu city (balmora). Not that big is it? Exactly. Towns were built close together for defensive, economic, and materialistic reasons. This is why diseases would spread so rapidly in large towns...this is why london burned down. Regardless of whether you like the layout or not, last time I checked, TR was about lore and realism. Thank you for at least lookoing at it though.

EDIT: the daedric Stone texture is what was there and since im a new modder, I dont know anything better to use.

[Dexter]

Yes, the towns are built near the water for a reason, but look how far Balmora stretches out from the water. With most real cities, there is a port near the water, with buildings stretching back from the water. Shops and the like would be closer to the port, and as the city progresses away, houses and forts would pop up.
And I think you could argue a point about the Imperials wanting some port access, but we should look to Vvardenfell for examples. The -moth forts are all built by the biggest Dunmer House cities, and so I think Blacklight would be similar. It seems very odd to me that Blacklight contains an enormous Imperial harbor, but no Dunmer harbor, and there are commoner houses built within the confines of the walls.

[Pythearon]

Im not exactly sure where you learned about medieval architecture, but if you paid for it, get a refund. I, on the other hand, was required to take it for my degree. I love it and I really have a passion for it. So, you can run this "shops near the water" shit out of your head. Im sorry to tell you but everything in books is not what was real. So, in turn for the reply to a well thought out city (maybe not lore wise but terrain wise) you now get to learn a few things.

The layout of many medieval cities was based entirely on space and money. Many houses would be built into walls and as close together as possible so that they could save materials. Another thing to keep in mind is that most medieval cities were built in haste. The did not have planned areas. Houses were rapidly constructed, generally around a fort, for the people that were building the city. This is of course assuming thy didnt live in slums outside the city (I had plans of adding slums in an older part of the city that i took out). Another large part of the area within walls was a barracks and/or a port. The port would be placed in a heavily defensible place since it was generally an easily accesable area by boat (duh). Most architects would then allow space for large stone enclosures that goods would come into called a bull run. This was basically a safe gaurd to attack on the port. (notice the big open spot near the end of the docks in my BL...uh huh) As far as house within the city proper or imperial outpost...VERY few forts built before the 1600's had a lack of housing. It was early american architecture by the army that killed "in the wall" housing and instead made large bunk houses. Want a good example in real life? Look up a little place called Tripoli. It has at least 45 houses in the remains of the old city...and even better? theyre near the ports lol. P.S. There is a mixture of shops and houses near the port.

As far as comparing the size and layout of Blacklight to Blamora...a bit sophmoric. The regions are completely different. Balmora is allowed to be spaced out due to natural defense. It has mountains on two sides and A RIVER running through it...not an ocean. Rivers are damable and defensable. By placing a city between two mountians, it would be dumb not to use all of the room, because then you allow yourself to be surrounded in a valley bed. Youve just trapped yourself in a "bull run". Balmora = Balcklight...no.

Moving on to Imperial District reasoning. Ask yourself a question...How powerful are the imperials? How did the get that way? How do they keep their power? How does any world power, real life or tamriel, keep power?

When the imperials made their rapid move into morrowind, Hlaalu was the first house to welcome them and say HELL YA! Now ask yourself how many imperial ports are in the region. I dont see many. It only makes sense to have an imperial port near OR connected to a Hlaalu city. The Hlaalu are a trade house and were excited to see the coming of the imperials because they knew that the trade in the district would improve, so why would they have such a problem having an imperial fortress (added defense) and a thriving port attached to their city? I can probably very well tell yu why the imperials would want it. They have conquered morrowind for trade and thus they have succeeded. Hlaalu shows to be thier biggest supporter. They have a region (map 5) which is low terrain towards the northern end and very easily accessible by rebellion and/or opposing armies (not real sure of any towards the imperials). Why would they not tend to offer a deal to hlaalu. Its a basic you scratch my back ill scratch yours. You let us run our trade towards solthseim (example) and Hla Oad (example) through your city and you recieve better trade and better defense. Those two go hand and hand. Better defense means a more desirable city to trade in and the more trade means more business.

Obviously you dont think as far into things as i do, and maybe im going for to much realism, but i play this game and when i saw the architecture of it, i wanted to make something that was well thought out. Regardless of your liking of it, it is real and if thats not what TR is for then tell me. I know the bethesda thought these things out (well maybe not vivec lol). Please, the next time that you want to saysomething about actual architecture, you may want to make sure your not fibbing to an architect, let alone one for a passion of medieval architecture.

Once again, thank you for at least the interest to shoot down my work. It may sound cocky but i dont mean it that way, for I really am glad you at least took the time to look at it.

[Vholdrian]

As you said yourself, TR is not like the real world. Cities may have had those looks in the medieval age, but in Tamriel it is possible that they have a total different look. It is fantasy after all. Besides that, i did finally learn something about medieval cities Thanks for that.

[Nomadic1]

As you said yourself, TR is not like the real world. Cities may have had those looks in the medieval age, but in Tamriel it is possible that they have a total different look. It is fantasy after all. Besides that, i did finally learn something about medieval cities Thanks for that.

Perhaps, but TR still follows common sense. And keeps true to function and purpose. I admit I haven't looked at your work Pythearon. But you do seem to understand full well the medieval city. I'll take a look some time and give an opinion.

[Gez]

Perhaps, but TR still follows common sense.

Contrarily to Bethesda.

Look at the Moonmoth Legion Fort. Can you tell me all that is wrong with it?
[url=http://img380.imageshack.us/my.php?image=moonmoth6mv.png][img]http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/1165/moonmoth6mv.th.png[/img][/url]

If it had been built with common sense, it would have been built so that it would really control the bridge. Instead, ennemies coming from the bridge can climb on the rocks and jump inside the castle, making the curtain wall completely useless.

[kebra]

To Pythearon :
Im not exactly sure where you learned about medieval architecture, but if you paid for it, get a refund.

Don’t be so sure about you.
First, the middle age it’s 1000 years of history in a much extended area, so, it’s possible to find quite all the possibilities.
You speak about the money and forget that in Europe the trade have been asleep until the XI century for the best. The large majority of cities where coming from the Roman Empire, and haven’t been build in the speed; The few new ones where usually planed. (Look at the “bastideâ€Â￾ builds by the kings of England or France.) The chaotic aspect they have come from the time. Also, it depend where and when: Tripoli is a Muslim city build like all the Medina in a early Islamic society where the trade was central. A lot of cities have no harbour, like Athena, Roma…Because of the pirates the harbour is usually a dependant city. The castle could have been the main geographic element, but not always: A lot of cities has grown because of a church or a monastery, and don’t forget that the castle is not only a military building, he is more the symbol of the public power.(justice, politic, economic, fiscal.) The castles have start to be build (in great number) in the X century, not always in stone, at the beginning they where just a tower, it’s at the end of the middle age (XIV) that the castle have had buildings in (comfort and economy) till the artillery and not the early American … (first known example: the castle of Bonaguil XV) (ex can be fund in the Spanish or Portuguese forts.).And the big fortress you speak about have existed but before, that’s typical of the Neolithic period, it’s just OK for the early middle age, when all the population where looking protection from the public fortress, but after, when the publics rights became private, the Lords have stop to protect there populations in the castle who were now there own house. About the slum or suburb, it’s difficult, in general they where considered like another city.(ex : if a new village born because of a monastery located near a city, this village will have is own statute., St Denis is still an independent city at the doors of Paris.) And the develloppement of the cities has restart only in the XI. ( İn the XIX century 80% of the Europeans where peasants, the cities where little.) ………
Of course there are a lot of examples to prove the contrary of what I wrote!
And TR still a game, we are free from history and history is relative.
Difficult in English…

[Inferno_str1ke]

As we seem to be arguing both lore and history here I'll simply point out something that can help when creating things based on conflicting designs - if it can be explained, include it. If you can think of (good) reasons why the city should be built in such a way, then that's fine, do it. If you go on to include people/interiors then put explanations in books or dialogue, simple. That's the way to resolve lore conflicts, meaning you can build things how you want.

[Dexter]

I'll sum this thread up.
No matter what way you want to cut it, your city does not accurately portray what we want Blacklight to look like.
Also, if you want to come down off your potium and stop being a pompous cock, that's fine with me. However, one reason we did this forum change is so that we can better clamp down on behavior problems. So if you want to keep acting like this, don't be shocked when there are consequences.

[Pythearon]

[Pythearon]

I'll sum this thread up.
No matter what way you want to cut it, your city does not accurately portray what we want Blacklight to look like.
Also, if you want to come down off your potium and stop being a pompous cock, that's fine with me. However, one reason we did this forum change is so that we can better clamp down on behavior problems. So if you want to keep acting like this, don't be shocked when there are consequences.

1) I havent had anyone look at this except haplo and Lady N and they both seemed to enjoy it.

2) I DIDNT SUBMIT THIS FOR BLACKLIGHT!

3) You should watch your mouth as that word is highly offensive and some people may not enjoy having that in use. Im not sure how old you are but you come off as an immature child because I have yet to be unpleasant to you and now im being called names. If your not a child then you need to go to someone that can teach you some manners and learn to talk to be in a civilized way.

4) How the hell do you slap down consequences on someone who you have nothing to take away? What are you gonna do to me? Ive only said I wanna help and your callin me names and being hostile. I think my four year old neice has more mature friends...

5) Everyone who has made the effort to see this as just a minor project and would like to leave CONSTRUCTIVE critisism, I have posted in the new forum for feedback.

Thx everyone and have a good night. I wont be responding here again

[Sload]

Maybe if you didn't act like you were better than everyone, Dexter wouldn't call you pompous.

[kebra]

To Pythearon :

First generation of D&D, but thanks.
Sorry for the speech but Dexter wasn't agressive with you.
Anyway ,i'm a bit jalous not to have think to redo BL.İt's a good idea.

[Pythearon]

Maybe if you didn't act like you were better than everyone, Dexter wouldn't call you pompous.

I dont act better...Hell, I ask for help all the time and only get it from certain people. I have told everyone im new at this and im only trying to put RL elements into this because it makes the imagination flow since it is bound by shaky lore. All of the lore i have tried to include has been shot at me from 10 angles and then im told that what someone else said is wrong. Hell, I cant even get a straight answer on what house that BL should be. Ive been told hlaalu, redoran, hlaalu...and have changed it everytime and then i was told "thats not lore but were lazy and dont wanna redo where we already screwed up the lore" (or something to that effect). I dont mind this nor have I put up any fuss...I told everyone on IRC that i was merely doing this for practice.

Sload: Im not the one whom says that everything we try to discuss on IRC is stupid and not worth your time. Youve done that 3 times while ive been on and thats been probably a total of 6 times...

I didnt come to TR to start anything with anybody...I just want to mod for a good team. This team seems great except for a few people so far and the fact that I cant get CONSTRUCTIVE critisism from any of the moderators except Haplo and Stalker. (Anyone else out there that is a moderator and has helped me I apologize because I didnt know). I would really just like to do something. I am decent with CS, I can draw really well, and i am an architect by trade. I make an attempt to help if ya just give me something to do. I do not wish to sit on these forums day in and day out and argue with Sload and Dexter...I do this for fun and in my spare time I would actually like to be building something that can help thuis project rather than typing novels having to defend the fact of a simple idea. You all think I am trying to force something on TR when I am merely suggesting and then defending my suggestion.

Once again thank you for the mild compliment Kebra.

[Macar]

Sir, there is nothing wrong with defending your choices. Dexter suggested some changes and instead of simply defending your choices, you used demeaning language:

Im not exactly sure where you learned about medieval architecture, but if you paid for it, get a refund. I, on the other hand,

If you cant see why people think you are acting pompus you should consider the content of posts that say things like:

Obviously you dont think as far into things as i do

I dont think you meant to read that way, and I know what it feels like to be chalenged in an area that you see as one you exell in, but you should be a little more careful in your word choice.

[Pythearon]

Ok, I was harsh and a bit of a dick with the schooling thing but I was aggrivated. I dont like it when people say things that are wrong when I know they are correct. Like I said, I am a bit overzealous. And As far as the quote of him looking into it as fare as me, I dont believe that many people do look into it as far as me. There was one post about people jumping over walls.

This is the end of this please.

Dexter: This version of Blacklight was a personal peice of practice. I am sorry I was a bit of an ass to ya and I dont want any hard feelings. I looked back at the prior posts and the one that got me started was on New Years night and now that I look, you were giving opinions. After that, I was just rolling with it.

As far as me being pompous, when I need help I will ask for it. As far as most medieval architecture, I am pretty damn knowledgable. I dont call it pompous because Im just trying to help/defend my design. I really thought out that city as far as how it was layed out. I really think that an imperial port makes sense and would save time as far as having the imperial presence already there.