The Notion of Water in Hammerfell

[Upsilon]

This might not be the best place to post this, but it's some kind of a concept idea, so...

Since Hammerfell mainly takes place in the desert, I think it would be great to give the player the impression water is something extremly important. Someone could write a script that wouldn't allow the player to stay in the desert, without water for a long period of time. In fact, we could make a new object, just about anything that can contain water, and make it so that the player will have to keep the container full. Of course, as the player spends more time in the desert, travelling or fighting beasts, his quantity of water would go down. When it reaches zero, the player would gradually loose stamina, then health, to ultimatly die.

I think that would enhance the realism of the game, as well as adding a sense of precaution when travelling in the desert. That way, the player will have to think about water before deciding to cross countless miles of sand. Finally, this could also enhance the impression that Hammerfell is blazing hot.

Thanks.

UPS

(Someone might have already proposed this... If so, I am very sorry!)

[Xui'al]

This is a wonderful idea that would greatly add to RPing, which is what Elder Scrolls is. Plenty of such mods exist for Morrowind, such as the fabled Middle-Earth mod, as well as Necessities of Morrowind. I know NoM was mentioned a while back, but I never bothered to look at the discussion, so I do not know whether or not OB was discussed. I like the idea, but I really think that it should be something that is optional, as not all players *cough* ESF *cough* like to, or are intelligent enough to; RP.

[Silverwood]

It could work like the sun damage script. Except when you enter a certain region.

[Sload]

No. Bethesda has said that they don't consider necessary eating and drinking fun, and I don't either.

[Upsilon]

I really don't care about what Bethesda thinks or says. Lore should be respected, but I don't think this has anything to do with lore. This would enhance, for certain people, the realism of the game. However, I really think it should be optional. It's true some people might not really like to have to preoccupate themselves for water.

I personnaly would like that feature to be added because in real life, if you wander in the desert for days without drinking, you die. That'd would really give me the impression the desert is an hostile place, and not some kind of large mesh where my *bored* character is walking on.

Anyway, let's make a pool...

[Dexter]

If Bethesda doesn't make water necesscary for the player to survive, neither will we.

[Upsilon]

I have trouble understanding this mentality... we are not touching to the lore here... But, if you guys are really against it, then be it! I cannot take decisions, I propose options...

[Dexter]

It's the same reason we are not adding kids to Morrowind. It would certainly increase the realism factor, and make the game more immersive, but the Devs chose not to, and so we will focus our attention on what the Devs have done.

[Morden]

Morrowind is not like real life, in fact you'll not find many games that are like real life, because it makes drastic changes to gameplay. One person may find it more immersive and difficult, but the next person might view it as a pain in the ass. It may expand gameplay for one type of gamer, but it is limiting for others.

[Upsilon]

It's the same reason we are not adding kids to Morrowind. It would certainly increase the realism factor, and make the game more immersive, but the Devs chose not to, and so we will focus our attention on what the Devs have done.

I think this is as illogical than it is negative. Why can't we make better things than Devs have? Why limit ourselves to already done things? I'm saying, respect the lore, but leave room for innovation. We have a lot of extremly talented people around here, and let's not pretend we are not able to make something pretty enjoyable.

I'm not saying "Oh, let's drop the swords, and let's add planes in Morrowind". I am not saying: "Hey uhh, you know, we should completly change the UI in Morrowind..." No, I simply, and only, want to add a feature that would ONLY be activated in deserts. This is not a "food and drink" device.

I simply don't understand why we have to limit ourselves to what the Devs have done...

--------------

Morrowind is not like real life, in fact you'll not find many games that are like real life, because it makes drastic changes to gameplay. One person may find it more immersive and difficult, but the next person might view it as a pain in the ass. It may expand gameplay for one type of gamer, but it is limiting for others.

That is why I wanted to make optional...

Also, understand that I am not trying to start some kind of debate or war, but rather understand why this would not be applicable in TR...

[Lutemoth]

Although I wouldn't be able to contribute a viable opinion either way, One can consider the lore versus the gameplay via weather.

In morrowind, and in the pocket guide to Tamriel, the weather is often described as pyroclastic, inhuman and alien. The quote may be off, but it was mentioned that bundles of clothing was required to even enter outside in an ashstorm

concept art prior:
[url=http://morrowind.ttlg.com/screenshots/Redoran.jpg][img]http://morrowind.ttlg.com/screenshots/Redoransmall.jpg[/img][/url]

after:
[img]http://morrowind.bonusweb.cz/obrazek/bonemold2.jpg[/img]

[Macar]

The goal of TR is to continue in the same style as Bethesda. I personaly would enjoy such a mod, but it's not for TR.

Here's an example of why. Going back to the isue of adding children. If we added children to HF, the lack of them in cyrodill would be pretty obtrusive. And since we dont touch the original, there would be nothing we could do.

I would recomend this a plug-in... but those have gone the way of 8-track cassetes.

[Anonymous]

I feel things like this should be addons to the original package, that way, people can customize this mod to there liking, rather than throwing in something that could ruin the game for many who agree or disagree with what the addon brings.

Matter of fact, I would be more than willing to incorporate things like Morrowind Comes Alive, into Tamriel Rebuilt. Since mods like that are very valued among certain members of the community.

But I strongly agree and align with TRs view of doing things the bethsade way.

[kebra]

Agree with Upsilon.
Childs are a thing, suffering of water in a specific quest another. İf it's a limited risk the player don't have to manage all the time, i don't see the problem. MW is full of that kind of particuliar things, and if they didn't insist about the weather effects that's maybee because of the importance of healness who play quite the same function. (but only in MW)

[Morgoth]

It's the same reason we are not adding kids to Morrowind. It would certainly increase the realism factor, and make the game more immersive, but the Devs chose not to, and so we will focus our attention on what the Devs have done.

The Devs have never created all of Tamriel. Darn, guess we can't either.

[Boompiee]

There is a big difference between bethesda's plans to not enter hunger and thirst to morrowind and the conditions in the deserts of hammerfell. Just like the sun damage vampires take, I think Bethesda would agree that dehydration damage in the desert would prove a valuable gameplay addition (you can drown as well, can't you?). It would also increase the roleplaying aspect, by giving meaning to the heat, so you feel more like a part of the world. I believe it could be balanced in such a way that it would be challenging, without making the game less fun.

[Macar]

Why is this in concept art, anyway?

[Zephyr]

The Devs have never created all of Tamriel. Darn, guess we can't either.

So, um, what is Arena about, then?

[sxotty]

This is exactly like the thread about cold damage in skyrim.

And I still think it could be a good thing, but as was said it needs to be limited, not just extremely annoying. Like when you cross the Rhub al kali, or however you spell it. So if a specific questline says something about needing water then maybe they player would have to find an oasis or something to refill his water, that could be cool, but it would be annoying as heck to have to always refill water in an entire province.

[Stalker]

Have any of you thought of the scale ? Alik'r can be no more than a sand dot because of very realistic Ob scale.

[kebra]

So, um, what is Arena about, then?

İn Arena the PC was going from place to place, never walking in the countryside.

[Morgoth]

So, um, what is Arena about, then?

İn Arena the PC was going from place to place, never walking in the countryside.

Exactly my point. We are attempting to do something the Dev's have never done. Isn't that a no-no? Anyway, I think this should be made as a bolt-on. It should also be moved to lore discussion or the tavern.

[Upsilon]

Agree with Upsilon.
Childs are a thing, suffering of water in a specific quest another. İf it's a limited risk the player don't have to manage all the time, i don't see the problem. MW is full of that kind of particuliar things, and if they didn't insist about the weather effects that's maybee because of the importance of healness who play quite the same function. (but only in MW)

That's it! That's what I meant! It would be somehow included in one specific quest. I mean, even the Devs have done something similar in Bloodmoon. As a werewolf, you had to kill to feed yourself, otherwise you would grow weak.

[Stalker]

Let's add water and air pressure, need to eat, drink and sleep, need to poo with realistic fart sounds ! This will greatly add immersion !

[Upsilon]

That was a very mature conversaton up to now. If this is the way the core thinks, delete my account. I am not coming back.

[Boompiee]

Let's add water and air pressure, need to eat, drink and sleep, need to poo with realistic fart sounds ! This will greatly add immersion !

Seems to me like this project would do well enough without cynicism, especially regarding such a serious topic.

[PoHa!]

While I don't think that this is entirely a bad concept in itself (actually, I kinda like it), I think it would be too much effort for too little gain. The reason being, because once the player figures out that the desert can be harmful to them (and possibly even annoying, if not balanced nicely) then they'll avoid it, because no other places would have this problem.

Further, if what we've seen and heard about the fast travel system for Oblivion is true, then the player would easily point and click on the town they want to be at (one that's on the opposite side of the desert from them) and appear there. Of course, they'd have to go through the desert once to have access to that fast travel to the city across the desert, but after that, they'd ALWAYS bypass it, just to avoid the hassle.

Then, all the work that will go into that region will be practically for not, unless we had quests into the region, which I don't think is a good idea with the water necessity concept, for other reasons.

In the end, it comes down to everywhere else doesn't have any kind of environmental effects on the player, while this place has potentially harmful effects, meaning the player would avoid it if possible. (Of course, I can't be 100% on that info regarding Oblivion, but I think I made my point).

[Stalker]

Think of this: you decide to visit Alik'r but forget to refill your water supply for one reason or another (main reason being because you didn't have to do it in original Ob) and your last save was a long time ago. You was hurted by a monster and you decide to take a nap. BAM ! You die. Very cool, eh ? Why would I HAVE to use something I generally concider stupid and distractive ? I would agree on stat penalties (stamina especially) but for death from dehydration - hell no ! Plus, as I said earlier but people are too busy providing more ridiculous arguments than my clearly sarcastic post was, Alik'r can be nothing more than 15 cells big meaning I can pass it with 3 jumps in MW and I'll be sure it'll be around 6-8 jumps in Ob. There are better and less annoying things to add immersity to the game.
Second question I want to ask is who will script it ? You Upsilon ? Somehow I do not think so. The only active scripters I am aware of are Sload, PoHa (if I am not mistaken) and me. Sload is against, PoHa is too, me...you can guess.
Third - there's always a way around the desert with water and many settlements along it.


And why does everybody concider my opinion to be core opinion ?

[Colhir]

i voted yes but only in the desert. now i think about it i should have voted to make it optional.

there was so much to do in morrowind without having to stop for a snack if your hungry. but it would be a nice option if you like roleplay alot.

[Orix]

I find myself agreeing with Stalker. While you cant sleep in the wildrness anymore, only in beds (and possibly bedrolls, but no word on that yet), fast travel would be a huge problem in the desert.

Its like adding bleeding wounds, or as mentioned, the need to eat, its an annoying and rather unecessary annoyance. Although a Bolt-on qould probabaly be the best course of action is anyone did decide to undertake it.

One last thing Upsilon, dont take everything too too seriously, take comments with a pinch of salt, afterall Stalkers' comment did make a valid point, if we started adding water requirements, food, bleeding wounds, drink etc would also be required for realism. And too much realism can ruin a game .

[Upsilon]

Second question I want to ask is who will script it ? You Upsilon ? Somehow I do not think so. The only active scripters I am aware of are Sload, PoHa (if I am not mistaken) and me. Sload is against, PoHa is too, me...you can guess.

I was ready to do it. In fact, I would have learnt scripting only for that, but now, I don't think I'll ever do that.

Let's add water and air pressure, need to eat, drink and sleep, need to poo with realistic fart sounds ! This will greatly add immersion !

Getting ridiculized by an administrator was not what I looked for when I joined this project. Stalker, I really don't know what you tried to do. I quit.

[Stalker]

We can't sleep on the ground anymore ? Oh well. +1 reason to slaughter devs. I want to get phenoumonia from sleeping on the cold and wet grass goddamit !

[Dexter]

This idea is not something we will be including as an official part of TR. That's all there is to it.
If you want to make this as a separate mod and release it, then go ahead. There will be some people that like it, and some that don't. Normally this would constitude a Bolt-On, but Bolt-Ons are no longer an official part of TR.

[Macar]

This discussion has nothing to do with concept art. Can somebody please move it to the appropriate place?

[The Old Ye Bard]

it would be better me thinks if instead of drinking why don't there be a script that you can only last in the desert for a few days without an object like "Water Skin" but if you had one in your inventory you could last one or two days more. if you stay over the amount of time in the desert the screen will go black and you will be teleported to the nearest town/city with low health and a message will appear on the screen saying something like "You blacked-out in the desert on the brink of death, but lukily you where saved by the wandering nomads of the desert" and depending on how high your luck level is your health will be higher.

[Stalker]

I was ready to do it. In fact, I would have learnt scripting only for that, but now, I don't think I'll ever do that.

So if you're not going to learn scripting even for your idea I don't see the point of this discussion at all.

Getting ridiculized by an administrator was not what I looked for when I joined this project.

Sorry but kindergarden is two doors to the right. I am not here to babysit people. If I wanted to do that I would have applied to be ESF moderator. If you can't understand simple sarcasm - ESF if your place. Their yesterday "flame a dev because he posted a joke" was extremly funny to watch. Yours "delete this thread and ban me because you disagree with me" is funny to watch too.

[Serric]

OB gives you fast travel so it sort of defeats the object...It's a good idea for a plug-in, but Beth didn't make the player drink in MW, so we shouldn't either.

[ookami]

Well, it doesn't get much more 'optional' than a bolt-on, so I think that's the best course of action. I'm sure the people who use and enjoy plug-ins such as Necessities of Morrowind and Weather Effects (which is kind of neat) would appreciate it.

I hope the Bethesda devs give us bedrolls and things like that for Oblivion. I want to do some camping while I explore, damn it. The prospect of having to blow my drakes on inns to rest just doesn't seem like much fun to me.

[Razorwing]

Really, you can't sleep outdoors in Oblivion? Cool! Finally Inns will be useful.

[Xui'al]

Really, there is RP way to explain why this isn't going to happen. If you play one of the sterotypes, your huge, muscle-bound (just like Dexter) warrior isn't going to be stopped by some desert. Look at the Rock in the Mummy or Scorpion movie. If you play a mage, elements shouldn't be a problem. Look at Gandalf, or Sotha Sil. A thief-type character is going to avoid the sun all together, so that isn't a problem for them.

If one of the admins need one more excuse to not include water, feel free to use those.