Hammerfell Lore
Moderators: Haplo, Lead Developers
Heheh 
That's just what I've been hoping for - harsh critique, that's what drives innovation
That said, I agree on quite a few points. Too many mountains, for one - I must add that I didn't have a brush for hills, yet, and neither one for cliffs, so you're seeing entirely too many mountains as is. There should be uneven terrain where they are, in any case.
The reasons for this are various. For one, though I'm impressed by Oblivion's engine, I very much believe that drawing distance will still be a technichal issue. Valleys tend to alleviate that since they offer that player something in the distance to look at without requiring the engine to draw too much. Also, this division allows for different modders' claims to be separated from one another naturally, which should make connecting them seamlessly so much easier.
Finally, and most importantly, from a lore point of view, Hammerfell is one of the most mountainous provinces of Tamriel. Just look at the original Arena maps ([url]http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/big-tamriel.jpg[/url]): you'll notice that whereas colour represents climate/vegetation, light and shadow on the map signify altitude. There's more of that in Hammerfell than in almost any other province, and just because MW was about on par with that doesn't mean we should decide to make large swathes of HF flat simply because of that.
When I made that peculiar mount on the westernmost part of the province that seems to puzzle many, I had two things to go on. Firstly, there IS a noticeable mountain at about that point on the Arena map. Secondly, if you visit the towns of Hegathe, Sunkeep or Dragon Grove in the game, you'll quickly notice that they are not in the desert at all - instead, there are mountains and even forests.
Now, of course you could discount this as dated and vague information, but until someone shows me something more solid lore-wise, you will agree that this is plainly not reason enough to just make up something else instead.
A similar thing goes for whether or not there's a river through Dragonstar. When there's one in Arena and not one in Shadowkeep, I tend to go for the Arena information rather than that of a mobile game developed by a team that did not work on the original.
Now on to some particular points:
Zephyr's first:
Still, this is easily amended.
I like your effort a lot, as well, especially from an artistic viewpoint. I'd gladly exchange some thoughts on technique with you in a seperate thread.
On to Stalker:
I realize I sound very defensive in this posting. Of course, on always is with one's own creation or vision, but I am also very much open to agree to someone else's good reasoning or better sources. My map leaves a lot to wish for, and I really want to help create a project map that everyone can be happy with and also serves future modders as a useful resource without restricting them beyond reason in what they can and cannot do.[/url]
That's just what I've been hoping for - harsh critique, that's what drives innovation
That said, I agree on quite a few points. Too many mountains, for one - I must add that I didn't have a brush for hills, yet, and neither one for cliffs, so you're seeing entirely too many mountains as is. There should be uneven terrain where they are, in any case.
The reasons for this are various. For one, though I'm impressed by Oblivion's engine, I very much believe that drawing distance will still be a technichal issue. Valleys tend to alleviate that since they offer that player something in the distance to look at without requiring the engine to draw too much. Also, this division allows for different modders' claims to be separated from one another naturally, which should make connecting them seamlessly so much easier.
Finally, and most importantly, from a lore point of view, Hammerfell is one of the most mountainous provinces of Tamriel. Just look at the original Arena maps ([url]http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/big-tamriel.jpg[/url]): you'll notice that whereas colour represents climate/vegetation, light and shadow on the map signify altitude. There's more of that in Hammerfell than in almost any other province, and just because MW was about on par with that doesn't mean we should decide to make large swathes of HF flat simply because of that.
When I made that peculiar mount on the westernmost part of the province that seems to puzzle many, I had two things to go on. Firstly, there IS a noticeable mountain at about that point on the Arena map. Secondly, if you visit the towns of Hegathe, Sunkeep or Dragon Grove in the game, you'll quickly notice that they are not in the desert at all - instead, there are mountains and even forests.
Now, of course you could discount this as dated and vague information, but until someone shows me something more solid lore-wise, you will agree that this is plainly not reason enough to just make up something else instead.
A similar thing goes for whether or not there's a river through Dragonstar. When there's one in Arena and not one in Shadowkeep, I tend to go for the Arena information rather than that of a mobile game developed by a team that did not work on the original.
Now on to some particular points:
Zephyr's first:
I'm glad to say that's enough solid common ground to properly discuss the details where we don't.Yellow color is area that we are mostly on the same track,
I definitely agree on that. IF Oblivion actually defines the Imperial Province's western border, which I have strong doubts about.grey color (on Cyrodiil border) is something that is to be changed on Oblivion release and cannot really be disputed
While I can see that as well, and have accomdated this in large parts. However, I'd choose to consider the green areas in eastern central HF not to be actual forests but more likely more sparse vegetation belts because otherwise we wouldn't have much of a desert province at all any more. Add to that the fact that while towns such as Riverpoint or North Hall might look like surrounded by greens on the map, they are absolutely desert towns in the game.- green color something is for forest areas that would make sense to me to exist (based on the same Arena map you have looked at)
Absolutely. But snowy forestsThe green area marked with 1) should be mountainous though, as you describe, but it should also be lush in vegetation.
There is a river in it in Arena, I swear, and c'mon, who really plays mobile games anyways1) You have a lot of vegetation here, as I do alongside the river. However, the river does not extend to Dragonstar - take a look at Shadowkey map. Again, I have not played Shadowkey myself, but since the map doesn't have a river, I very much doubt it would have one in the first place.
Still, this is easily amended. That town would be Dragon Gate, and I definitely read the Arena map in a manner that shows me there is a vally connecting Dragonstar and Dragon Gate - which would also kinda make sense from their names. The valley might be a lot smaller, though, agreed. BUT I don't feel that smaller valleys would be desert valleys - those tend to be brad, and DG is supposedly a desert town, again.2) The river mentioned in first point extends to a huge valley in the middle of the mountains. Looking at Arena map, this makes little sense to me - especially in this magnitude. There are a few valleys but it's certainly not that big and definitely ends much before the town you have there. (Which makes me wonder about town placement; either of us has a lof of them off by many cells).
Again, I'd counsel for desert highlands with maybe some mountainside vegetation - I simply cannot see any sound geographical reason to have an extended forest or farmlands in this area, given that it is the very center of a desert province.3) I see no real basis for these mountains. From the Arena map, this area seems to be a forest or farmland, through which rivers flow, not a mountainous desert. At most, they could be highlands, since the height map looks very even on that part.
well, yes, I am sure there is. maybe we could have some river spring up from a cavern in the middle of the desert, but I'm afraid this doesn't change much elsefor Hammerfell being full of deserts, there's also the underground streams as a source of water. I think I read from somewhere that there's huge amounts of water under the Sahara desert, but it's so far under it that it's hard to get to.
I'd recommend a lengthy drought and permanently dry riverbeds - might be cause for all kinds of story and quest elements, tooIn terms of gameplay, there can be no kinds of seasonal rivers. They're either completely dry or have water flowing through them all the time. Of course, there just might be ways to do this with some very clever scripting, but I very much doubt it.
Yes, it is. I know there isn't a forest there on the Arena map, but Lainlyn is forested in-game, it is jugle in DF and the Jungle is further mentioned in Redguard
Is Lainlyn area actually a rainforest? I will change it to such if it really is. I've never played Daggerfall either so I really don't know.
Thanks - I really appreciate your interest.Having said that, I think your map is interesting. I would think that some major eastern deserts would be on the southern side of Dragontail mountains or bit after that, as some of the rainfall is bound to get through the mountainline anyway.
I like your effort a lot, as well, especially from an artistic viewpoint. I'd gladly exchange some thoughts on technique with you in a seperate thread. On to Stalker:
I wonder about that info. I find no mention of elephants neither in the game's books nor in its quest dialogues. I'd really want to know exactly how much info on that they have taken from the game and how much it has been fleshed out...There's a description of Elephant saying this and stating TES2: Daggerfall as a source
I realize I sound very defensive in this posting. Of course, on always is with one's own creation or vision, but I am also very much open to agree to someone else's good reasoning or better sources. My map leaves a lot to wish for, and I really want to help create a project map that everyone can be happy with and also serves future modders as a useful resource without restricting them beyond reason in what they can and cannot do.[/url]
I didn't find "elephant" on tes.ag.ru, so I looked for the Russian word (слон according to an [url=http://www.freedict.com/onldict/rus.html]online dictionary[/url]) and [url=http://tes.ag.ru/files/results.txt]this is the only result[/url] (set the character encoding to cyrillic if you see just weird and random letters).
Here's the relevant part:
Here's the relevant part:
Which with my dictionary and my total cluelessness about this language translates into:Слон и дракон 26
I don't really know what that is supposed to mean, maybe the translation of a tavern name? I can see a DF tavern name being called the Elephant & Dragon, there were plenty of names like this.Elephant unto dragon 26
This page - http://tes.ag.ru/articles/bestiary/bestiary.shtmlGez wrote:I didn't find "elephant" on tes.ag.ru, so I looked for the Russian word
Слон (elephant):
Довольно большое млекопитающие, обитающие в степях и саваннах Хаммерфелла и Эйлсвейра. Относится к отряду хоботных. Слоны имеют довольно крупные размеры, внушающие бивни и длинный хобот. Хобот в первую очередь - манипулятор, предназначенный для сбора пищи. Питаются слоны, в основном травой, ветками и прочей растительной пищей. Живут слоны семейными группами, контактируют с другими семьями. Слоновая кость очень ценится у алхимиков в Иллиакском заливе.
Упоминание: TES2: Daggerfall
Elphant
Quite big mamal which lives in plains and savannas of Elsweyr and Hammerfell. [Here goes the description of the animal from your book about animals]
Source: TES2: Daggerfall
The thing is that if it was a tavern name they write something like "TES2: Daggerfall tavern name"
[img]http://img430.imageshack.us/img430/3336/oblivionforum5tb.jpg[/img]
Your friendly slavedriver.
Your friendly slavedriver.
It could be a lot of other things that city, though.
Castle or fort, neutral meeting place, market, crossroad, bridge... All these things often end up having a city built up around them, which gets named after the thing.
If it means "bridge", then maybe Verkarth City may simply mean something like "Oldbridge City".
Anyway, double redundance is also a common thing in real life. You can find cities or towns with names like Burgton (towntown) or Villebourg (citytown).
Especially when the old name is now longer understood. Strange deformations may appear. It's not exactly an example of this, but take Istanbul -- this is the Turkish simplification of Constantinopolis. The Greek told them eis Constantinopolis, and the Ottomans would shorten it in Eistanopol, eventually Istanbul. If the same thing had happened at New York, the Big Apple would have become "Itsnook".
I would have given some example of redundant names like City City, but I don't remember them on the top of my head. Maybe Reykjavik (Iceland's capital), I'm not sure. Vik stands for city, but I forgot what the beginning of the name means.
Castle or fort, neutral meeting place, market, crossroad, bridge... All these things often end up having a city built up around them, which gets named after the thing.
If it means "bridge", then maybe Verkarth City may simply mean something like "Oldbridge City".
Anyway, double redundance is also a common thing in real life. You can find cities or towns with names like Burgton (towntown) or Villebourg (citytown).
Especially when the old name is now longer understood. Strange deformations may appear. It's not exactly an example of this, but take Istanbul -- this is the Turkish simplification of Constantinopolis. The Greek told them eis Constantinopolis, and the Ottomans would shorten it in Eistanopol, eventually Istanbul. If the same thing had happened at New York, the Big Apple would have become "Itsnook".
I would have given some example of redundant names like City City, but I don't remember them on the top of my head. Maybe Reykjavik (Iceland's capital), I'm not sure. Vik stands for city, but I forgot what the beginning of the name means.
-
Nomadic1
- Developer Emeritus
- Posts: 3338
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 7:34 am
- Location: Adelaide, Australia
Istanbul is actually a Turkicisation of the Greek phrase meaning "In the City" ("ist ein polein" or something similar. I don't speak Greek). Constantinople was the city during the Middle Ages.
I also reckon it is dangerous to conjecture and come up with meanings of words.
I also reckon it is dangerous to conjecture and come up with meanings of words.
<insert witty signature here. i might spend time trying to come up with something, but its not like anybody reads these anyway>
-
Majra
- Developer Emeritus
- Posts: 1871
- Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:23 am
- Location: Darvulk Haven Elsweyr
- Contact:
For the way Hammerfell is geologically you have to have mountains to split the province in watersheds, because otherwise the river and valley patterns wouldnt make sense. Therefore we can not just have the dragontail mountains. The animals and vegitation and plains would be in the valleys. The valleys within the province would be wide open floodplains with trees and lush yada yada. Closer to the coasts you would find much more arid conditions but away from these valleyed areas. Zeph your depiction on the 1st page is pretty darn close to what I see when I look and read about hammerfell, it makes the most amount of sense for lore, geology, and cartography from previous games.
I suppose though for those who want to keep the stumpy rivers then the zeph map from this page (or whoevers it is in zephs post) makes the most sense for that scenario, and I must admit, looks cooler.
I suppose though for those who want to keep the stumpy rivers then the zeph map from this page (or whoevers it is in zephs post) makes the most sense for that scenario, and I must admit, looks cooler.
I've been gradually updating my map as I've been drawing more sections to it (in case someone hasn't noticed). Most of the most basic terrain features are completed (mountains, rivers) but a lot the areas still lack detail like vegetation and such. As for the areas I have not drawn yet, I have this basic plan for it that would probably make sense geographically and make Hammerfell a major desert landscape that it is, with a few habitable areas.
[img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/layout.jpg[/img]
I've been having difficulty with having ideas about what kind of deserts would the ones shown in the map be. I've been reading wikipedia at it says that the following six types of deserts exist:
As for the purple area with a question mark, I'm thinking of having a more habitable forest (perhaps moving those trees from Lainlyn to that location). Would this make sense? Also, Moorkh has a river flowing through Lainlyn on his map. Since he said that each town has a river on his map where there was one in Arena, it would make sense lore-wise to have a river there. However, I was thinking more of having it start from the hills/mountains in the central region, instead of flowing all the way from the Dragontails.
Some other points:
1) The western end of Dragontail mountains is a bit too much to south. I will fix this eventually.
2) Lainlyn is still not a jungle. I will fix this eventually as well.
3) Since my last post, the Iliac bay coastline has changed drastically due to an error in the source map (Arth's) that I was using. This picture illustrates the difference:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hf-ohshit.jpg
In any case, the coastline is now nearly exactly correct with the height map from Daggerfall.
The full size map is still at http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hf.jpg
[img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/layout.jpg[/img]
I've been having difficulty with having ideas about what kind of deserts would the ones shown in the map be. I've been reading wikipedia at it says that the following six types of deserts exist:
I don't even want to pretend like I had an idea what these actually mean, so if someone has ideas about this and most of all, which types would best fit the areas I've illustrated on the map, please state those opinions here. If you disagree with the terrain choices I've made, those are open for discussion too.
i.Mountain and basin deserts;
ii. Hamada deserts, which comprise of a plateaux landforms;
iii. Regs which consist of rock pavements;
iv. Ergs which are formed by sand seas;
v. Intermontane Basins; and
vi. Badlands which are located at the margins of arid lands comprising of clay-rich soil.
As for the purple area with a question mark, I'm thinking of having a more habitable forest (perhaps moving those trees from Lainlyn to that location). Would this make sense? Also, Moorkh has a river flowing through Lainlyn on his map. Since he said that each town has a river on his map where there was one in Arena, it would make sense lore-wise to have a river there. However, I was thinking more of having it start from the hills/mountains in the central region, instead of flowing all the way from the Dragontails.
Some other points:
1) The western end of Dragontail mountains is a bit too much to south. I will fix this eventually.
2) Lainlyn is still not a jungle. I will fix this eventually as well.
3) Since my last post, the Iliac bay coastline has changed drastically due to an error in the source map (Arth's) that I was using. This picture illustrates the difference:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hf-ohshit.jpg
In any case, the coastline is now nearly exactly correct with the height map from Daggerfall.
The full size map is still at http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hf.jpg
-
Nomadic1
- Developer Emeritus
- Posts: 3338
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 7:34 am
- Location: Adelaide, Australia
Here's what I'm guessing is meant:Zephyr wrote:I don't even want to pretend like I had an idea what these actually mean, so if someone has ideas about this and most of all, which types would best fit the areas I've illustrated on the map, please state those opinions here. If you disagree with the terrain choices I've made, those are open for discussion too.
i.Mountain and basin deserts;
ii. Hamada deserts, which comprise of a plateaux landforms;
iii. Regs which consist of rock pavements;
iv. Ergs which are formed by sand seas;
v. Intermontane Basins; and
vi. Badlands which are located at the margins of arid lands comprising of clay-rich soil.
i. Mountain and basin deserts: Don't really know. My guess would be that it would be like the a desert extends across a mountain range. Normally the mountain valleys and the mountains themselves would be lush and fertile, but these might be deserts like those around Uighuria where there is no plant life at all
ii. Hamada deserts: Think Iran. Desert plateau (Hamadan - Hamada)
iii. Regs which consist of rock pavements: I'm guessing stony deserts. There are a lot of these in Australia. I don't know what is meant by "pavement"
iv. Ergs which are formed by sand seas: maybe big sandy deserts? Like those of Arabia or the Sahara
v. Intermontane Basins: No idea. If they use big words it cannot possibly be important. It might be a desert in which water sometime collects and then dries up quickly, leaving that "cracked" desert look (I think Death Valley looks like what I mean)
vi. Badlands which are located at the margins of arid lands comprising of clay-rich soil: Think the Wild West or Palestine. Bloody hot, terrible land, but at least stuff grows
3E396-3E397
The War of the Bend'r-mahk. Skyrim destroys the combined forces of Hammerfell and High Rock. The eastern part of Dragonstar city of Hammerfell falls to the Skyrim force led by General Duvais; while the Hammerfell force regroups and defends the western region of the city. Both forces build walls that separate the city permanently into two regions. The wall that separates the city still exists to these days, and the eastern region is still occupied by Skyrim – creating political obstacle between the two Provinces.
3E402
War of Betony begins. A war between Sentinel of Hammerfell and Daggerfall of High Rock. Lord Mogref of Betony Island for monetary reasons agrees to vassal himself and the rest of Betony to King Lysandus of Daggerfall. King Camaron of Sentinel objects. The war is unavoided.
3E403
During the War of Betony, the Lord of Reich Gradkeep tries to facilitate the peace negotiation between two warring city-state. In the appointed day, King Lysandus of Daggerfall and King Camaron of Sentinel meet at the Palace of Reich Gradkeep for a truce. However this treaty is never to be. Daggerfall Priest Vanech considered the Betony to be a holy land of Kynareth; any attempt to give up the island is blasphemous for him. Vanech fakes the treaty, and this false treaty offends Lysandus. The room disrupts into chaos. King Camaron knows of Vanech's treachery, pursues and finally slays the priest. However, the chaos is too severe, a great riot breaks throughout the Reich Gradkeep capitol. The entire family of Reich Gradkeep is killed. The only surviving member of the ruling family of Reich Gradkeep is a sickly infant. So the councilors of the state choose Lord Auberon Flyte to rule the lordship in regency. The state is now known as Anticlere as his ancestral home.
The war continues and takes its climax in the Cryngaine Field. King Lysandus is slain in the field. Gothryd, son of King Lysandus, is crowned King of Daggerfall. Inspired with the new King's bravery the Daggerfall force fights with new determination. Lord Bridwell, the leader of the Knights of the Dragon, slays King Camaron. The Sentinel army retreat in disorder. Lord Oresme of Sentinel surrenders; he commits suicide in the way back to Sentinel.
Direct quote from the timeline section on TIL. The part that interests me mostly is between the provinces. The city of Dragonstar is split between Hammerfell and Skyrim. Furthermore, this indicates that a small portion of northeastern Hammerfell might be occupied by Skyrim, or at least contested. There would certainly be a good deal of conflict and its evidence here: ruins of homes, small military settlements, etc.
Second, there is the matter of the war between Hammerfell and High Rock. There is a whole lot of border shared between these two countries, and I think that we'll probably see some of the scars of war there still (although not so badly as the border near Skyrim). I don't really know exactly how the war went down (at least well enough to get an idea of how the land would look at this point), but I'm sure that some people have a better idea than me.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to get at is that the recent of history will alter how the province looks. I'd expect a highly salient military presence along with the signs of battle not yet gone in the north, whereas the south might look somewhat more peaceful.
3E433
The Emperor Uriel Septim VII and three sons and heirs (Crown Prince Geldall (56), Prince Enman (55) and Prince Ebel (53)) are assassinated. The Empire of Tamriel is in chaos. In the same time portals from Oblivion are randomly opened throughout Tamriel; from those gates, the Daedra invade.
Based on my guesses regarding how Hammerfell might look with pre-Daedric invasion, the post-invasion face of the country changes as well. Do we see slaughter in the south with perhaps a more defended north? What cities will even be left standing? How do the politics of the region change with the invasion of the Daedra? I think that a lot of how Hammerfell looks will be open to interpretation; the decisions of how Hammerfell looks in this dynamic time of change give us many more options than we had with Morrowind.
Also, a brief history of the heroes of Hammerfell:
[url]http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b105_alt_redguard.shtml[/url]
Click on the thumbnails to enlarge.
Normal version:
[url=http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hf.jpg][img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfthumb.jpg[/img][/url]
Version with names:
[url=http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfnames.jpg][img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfthumb.jpg[/img][/url]
High-res version, no names:
[url=http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfHIRES.jpg][img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfthumb.jpg[/img][/url]
The different versions may contain small differences because it's a pain to update each file when small changes are done.
I hope that there will be discussion about the names. As stated before by several people, the current names for some cities are not that good.
As for the map itself, I've been working on it for about a month now or something. I think it's mostly done; adding more detail would not only be a frustrating job, but also limit the imagination of modders. However, if you do have change suggestions about it, you're welcome to do so. If not, this will probably become the official map for TR sooner or later.
I've tried to add as much features from Moorkh's map as I illustrated before. As for plans of other people, I've tried to incorporate them too at least to some extent.
Other people who have worked on the map (drawing stuff to it) are as follows;
- Arthmodeus, who made the base map and a sketch for Fang Lair icon
- Graff, who made the initial outline of the province based on A's map
- Lady N, who took some screenshots I needed for icons and drew the grayscale city icons
- Lutemoth, Morgoth and Vholdrian for making concept art on which some icons were based on.
Normal version:
[url=http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hf.jpg][img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfthumb.jpg[/img][/url]
Version with names:
[url=http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfnames.jpg][img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfthumb.jpg[/img][/url]
High-res version, no names:
[url=http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfHIRES.jpg][img]http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfthumb.jpg[/img][/url]
The different versions may contain small differences because it's a pain to update each file when small changes are done.
I hope that there will be discussion about the names. As stated before by several people, the current names for some cities are not that good.
As for the map itself, I've been working on it for about a month now or something. I think it's mostly done; adding more detail would not only be a frustrating job, but also limit the imagination of modders. However, if you do have change suggestions about it, you're welcome to do so. If not, this will probably become the official map for TR sooner or later.
I've tried to add as much features from Moorkh's map as I illustrated before. As for plans of other people, I've tried to incorporate them too at least to some extent.
Other people who have worked on the map (drawing stuff to it) are as follows;
- Arthmodeus, who made the base map and a sketch for Fang Lair icon
- Graff, who made the initial outline of the province based on A's map
- Lady N, who took some screenshots I needed for icons and drew the grayscale city icons
- Lutemoth, Morgoth and Vholdrian for making concept art on which some icons were based on.
This site gives information on all of the regions inn the Iliac Bay, Hammerfell ones included. Interesting to note that there are witch covens in Hammerfell. Also includes pictures of the scenery.[url]http://www.jceason.dircon.co.uk/dagger/dfgprov.htm[/url]
"It’s all been such a mistake. We were once little shrew-like animals. That would be so much better."
-Ophelia Benson
-Ophelia Benson
-
Nomadic1
- Developer Emeritus
- Posts: 3338
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 7:34 am
- Location: Adelaide, Australia
Also, the Imperial Library has a feature where they've done info and screenshots of the main regions in Daggerfall. That is worth a looksie too, especially for concept artists.
<insert witty signature here. i might spend time trying to come up with something, but its not like anybody reads these anyway>
PGE: Hammerfell
PGE: Hammerfell
Places to note[/b]
Hammerfell is the eternal outsider of the human lands, either regarded by the Imperial citizen as Tamriel's dark and exotic west or its most tempestuous and dangerous quarter, full of barbarians and cutthroats. Both descriptions are apt, and can be equally attributed to its people, the proud and savage Redguards.
Some three thousand years ago the continent of Yokuda suffered a cataclysm that sunk most of it into the sea, driving its people towards Tamriel. The bulk of these refugees landed at the uninhabited isle of Herne, while the rest continued on to the mainland. This vanguard "warrior wave" of Yokudans, the Ra Gada, swept into the country, quickly slaughtering and enslaving the beastfolk and Nedic villagers before them, bloodily paving the way for their people who waited at Herne, including the Na-Totambu, their kings and ruling bodies. The fierce Ra Gada became, phonetically, the Redguards, a name that has since spread to designate the Tamrielic-Yokudan race in general. They ultimately displaced the Nedic peoples, for their own agriculture and society was better organized and better adapted to Hammerfell's harsh environment. They took much of Nedic custom, religion, and language for themselves in the process, and eventual contact with the surrounding Breton tribes and Colovian Cyrodilics hastened their own assimilation into the larger Tamrielic theater. Yoku, the Redguard oral language, was almost entirely replaced as the need for foreign commerce and treaties increased.
Under the provincial organization of the Second Empire, two Redguard "parties" formed to aid Cyrodiil's administration of Hammerfell. The ancient Na-Totambu ruling class retained the rights of noble council as the Crowns, and the much-admired warriors of the Ra Gada were finally granted rights of ownership within their tribal districts. This empowerment fundamentally changed the Ra Gada, who began to call themselves the Forebears, firmly announcing their status as the first Redguards on Tamriel. This republic, however, lasted only so long as the Cyrodiils were strong enough to support it. During the Imperial Interregnum, control reverted back to the hereditary monarchy of the Na-Totambu. The new "High King" was even so bold as to move his throne from Old Hegathe to the more prosperous Forebear city of Sentinel, which had, by this time, mastered a third of the trade of the Iliac Bay.
Thassad II was the last of these "High Kings," for upon his death in CE862, the honorable Forebears retook Sentinel by force. Crown Prince A'tor then sailed from Stros M'kai to avenge his father, resulting in one of the bloodiest massacres of Tamrielic history. Tiber Septim, in his rightful duty as Heir to the Reman Dynasty, answered the Forebears' plea for help, sending his men to end the mad Prince's butchery. A'tor found it impossible to stand against the superiority of the Imperial legions; many of the Crowns had deserted him after seeing the glory of the reborn Empire. He and a few loyalists fled back to Stros M'kai, doggedly pursued by the West Navy, where they were soundly defeated at the Battle of Hunding Bay. The Emperor, in his wisdom, deemed it best to assume responsibility for Hammerfell's lawful restoration as a republic and provincial territory, where presently the Redguards spend their days as proud subjects of the new Cyrodilic Empire.
Physically, the Redguards can be intimidating to an outsider, with their dark skin and wooly hair, tall, gaunt frames and finely toned physiques. Custom and dress differs by district: the Redguards of Elinhir are Colovian in fashion and taste, while some in Rihad go naked in the streets. In demeanor, they are haughty and easily provoked, and, to the last, obsessed with personal honor. Though it is widely acknowledged that Hammerfell is home to the finest warriors of the Empire, they are but indifferent soldiers, being unwilling to defer to authority or endure military discipline, and few serve in the Ruby ranks. There is no standing army in Hammerfell, only paid militias of the oft-contested border-states and along its coastline. Ancient tradition has predisposed the Redguards to knightly orders, though, customarily in the service of royal families. Initiates of these orders must prove themselves in dangerous, even deadly, tests of skill. The youths of Crown Totambu, for example, must sail to the Dwemer Ruins of Stros M'kai, to avoid its deathtraps and "wrestle its mechanical men back into shape" before they can join the Knights of the Scarab. The more severe Order of Diagna, on the other hand, stages an annual recreation of the Siege of Orsinium, where their initiates must play the part of the Orcs....
The colonization of Hammerfell was a slow process, since it was mainly a barren and rocky place, with the vast Alik'r desert in the center, and only a few grasslands that hugged the coastline in horseshoe fashion. As such, Redguard civilization is divided into the cosmopolitan coastal cities on one hand, and the numerous nomadic tribes that wander the desert itself on the other. The former have adopted Breton or Imperial manners of dress and architecture, modified with motifs and styles from lost Yokuda, and some have even reorganized their gods and tribal spirits to fit into the traditional Imperial pantheon of Eight Divines. The nomads are more primitive, either with trace-Nedic influences or stubbornly Yokudan, throwback castaways even to other Redguards. Devotees of Satakal the Serpent God are strewn among them, historically causing the A'likr border-states no end of strife. These revered madmen depend entirely on the charity of the other Redguards, though sometimes they rise in perilous bands, terrorizing the countryside in old Ra Gada fashion. Many, as in Rihad, go nude, rolling around in the dirt and nipping at the legs of passersby, "striking out" as if they were snakes themselves, while others perform terrible exhibitions of "shedding their skin". They have been seen rolling in the desert sand sidewinder-fashion in continuous, hundred-mile stretches, from Balhar all the way to the Nohotogrha oasis. The Satakals have never liked the Imperial presence, and have recently taken to harassing its civil servants. The Provisional Governors have been forced to run them out of the cities for the safety of its garrisoned troops and the native citizenry at large.
Tourists have, historically, given wide berth to the Redguard cities outside of those facing the Iliac Bay. Considering the (mostly deserved) reputation of its people, Hammerfell is frequently seen as intolerant of "foreigners," where trespass is dealt with in blood. This is a shame, and a situation that the Emperor seeks to rectify, for Hammerfell itself is a beautiful country. From the twin moonrises over the Alik'r shade-temples to the austere ramparts of Old Hegathe, everywhere there is the appearance of antique splendor. Its people are harsh but, taken singly, the Redguard is often a masterful work of a man. Perhaps a guiding power like the Empire, steering Hammerfell clear of the foul agents of A'tor's legacy, and protecting her from the avarice of her Elven neighbors, will bring the same prosperity to her people that it seeks to bring to the world.
Places of Note:
Sentinel
Second capital of Hammerfell, Sentinel sits on the edge of the Iliac Bay. It is most definitely a merchant power, for it sits on a rocky run of hills, and the barren plains behind it offer no good soil before they run into the desert sands of the Alik'r. Its principal street is a vast marketplace stretching from the harbor all the way to the badlands gate. Sentinel Palace is the oldest and largest Redguard architectural monument, quickly built during the Ra Gada firestorm to ward against the Bretons and added to ever thereafter. Currently, this Palace is the headquarters of Provisional Governor Senecus Goddkey, who has been helping to administer the Forebear principalities since Baron Volag's disappearance. Since its Imperial reorganization, Sentinel has become an exotic retreat for the nobility of Daggerfall and Wayrest, who delight in its native cooking, craftsmanship, and the bizarre morality-plays of its Royal Theatre.
Stros M'kai
Formerly the principality of Thassad II's heir, A'tor, Stros M'kai's small island serves as the office of Provisional Governor Amiel Richton, who is charged with the protection and patrol of Hammerfell's barbarous southern coast. Lord-Admiral Richton was the officer who defeated Prince A'tor in the Battle of Hunding Bay, and is the latest of a long line of heroes to serve in the Colovian West Navy. Stros M'kai itself would be an unassuming little port, famous only for its Dwemer Ruins, were it not for its presently strategic location near the Cape of the Blue Divide, the waters of the dread Aldmeri Dominion.
Places to note[/b]
Hammerfell is the eternal outsider of the human lands, either regarded by the Imperial citizen as Tamriel's dark and exotic west or its most tempestuous and dangerous quarter, full of barbarians and cutthroats. Both descriptions are apt, and can be equally attributed to its people, the proud and savage Redguards.
Some three thousand years ago the continent of Yokuda suffered a cataclysm that sunk most of it into the sea, driving its people towards Tamriel. The bulk of these refugees landed at the uninhabited isle of Herne, while the rest continued on to the mainland. This vanguard "warrior wave" of Yokudans, the Ra Gada, swept into the country, quickly slaughtering and enslaving the beastfolk and Nedic villagers before them, bloodily paving the way for their people who waited at Herne, including the Na-Totambu, their kings and ruling bodies. The fierce Ra Gada became, phonetically, the Redguards, a name that has since spread to designate the Tamrielic-Yokudan race in general. They ultimately displaced the Nedic peoples, for their own agriculture and society was better organized and better adapted to Hammerfell's harsh environment. They took much of Nedic custom, religion, and language for themselves in the process, and eventual contact with the surrounding Breton tribes and Colovian Cyrodilics hastened their own assimilation into the larger Tamrielic theater. Yoku, the Redguard oral language, was almost entirely replaced as the need for foreign commerce and treaties increased.
Under the provincial organization of the Second Empire, two Redguard "parties" formed to aid Cyrodiil's administration of Hammerfell. The ancient Na-Totambu ruling class retained the rights of noble council as the Crowns, and the much-admired warriors of the Ra Gada were finally granted rights of ownership within their tribal districts. This empowerment fundamentally changed the Ra Gada, who began to call themselves the Forebears, firmly announcing their status as the first Redguards on Tamriel. This republic, however, lasted only so long as the Cyrodiils were strong enough to support it. During the Imperial Interregnum, control reverted back to the hereditary monarchy of the Na-Totambu. The new "High King" was even so bold as to move his throne from Old Hegathe to the more prosperous Forebear city of Sentinel, which had, by this time, mastered a third of the trade of the Iliac Bay.
Thassad II was the last of these "High Kings," for upon his death in CE862, the honorable Forebears retook Sentinel by force. Crown Prince A'tor then sailed from Stros M'kai to avenge his father, resulting in one of the bloodiest massacres of Tamrielic history. Tiber Septim, in his rightful duty as Heir to the Reman Dynasty, answered the Forebears' plea for help, sending his men to end the mad Prince's butchery. A'tor found it impossible to stand against the superiority of the Imperial legions; many of the Crowns had deserted him after seeing the glory of the reborn Empire. He and a few loyalists fled back to Stros M'kai, doggedly pursued by the West Navy, where they were soundly defeated at the Battle of Hunding Bay. The Emperor, in his wisdom, deemed it best to assume responsibility for Hammerfell's lawful restoration as a republic and provincial territory, where presently the Redguards spend their days as proud subjects of the new Cyrodilic Empire.
Physically, the Redguards can be intimidating to an outsider, with their dark skin and wooly hair, tall, gaunt frames and finely toned physiques. Custom and dress differs by district: the Redguards of Elinhir are Colovian in fashion and taste, while some in Rihad go naked in the streets. In demeanor, they are haughty and easily provoked, and, to the last, obsessed with personal honor. Though it is widely acknowledged that Hammerfell is home to the finest warriors of the Empire, they are but indifferent soldiers, being unwilling to defer to authority or endure military discipline, and few serve in the Ruby ranks. There is no standing army in Hammerfell, only paid militias of the oft-contested border-states and along its coastline. Ancient tradition has predisposed the Redguards to knightly orders, though, customarily in the service of royal families. Initiates of these orders must prove themselves in dangerous, even deadly, tests of skill. The youths of Crown Totambu, for example, must sail to the Dwemer Ruins of Stros M'kai, to avoid its deathtraps and "wrestle its mechanical men back into shape" before they can join the Knights of the Scarab. The more severe Order of Diagna, on the other hand, stages an annual recreation of the Siege of Orsinium, where their initiates must play the part of the Orcs....
The colonization of Hammerfell was a slow process, since it was mainly a barren and rocky place, with the vast Alik'r desert in the center, and only a few grasslands that hugged the coastline in horseshoe fashion. As such, Redguard civilization is divided into the cosmopolitan coastal cities on one hand, and the numerous nomadic tribes that wander the desert itself on the other. The former have adopted Breton or Imperial manners of dress and architecture, modified with motifs and styles from lost Yokuda, and some have even reorganized their gods and tribal spirits to fit into the traditional Imperial pantheon of Eight Divines. The nomads are more primitive, either with trace-Nedic influences or stubbornly Yokudan, throwback castaways even to other Redguards. Devotees of Satakal the Serpent God are strewn among them, historically causing the A'likr border-states no end of strife. These revered madmen depend entirely on the charity of the other Redguards, though sometimes they rise in perilous bands, terrorizing the countryside in old Ra Gada fashion. Many, as in Rihad, go nude, rolling around in the dirt and nipping at the legs of passersby, "striking out" as if they were snakes themselves, while others perform terrible exhibitions of "shedding their skin". They have been seen rolling in the desert sand sidewinder-fashion in continuous, hundred-mile stretches, from Balhar all the way to the Nohotogrha oasis. The Satakals have never liked the Imperial presence, and have recently taken to harassing its civil servants. The Provisional Governors have been forced to run them out of the cities for the safety of its garrisoned troops and the native citizenry at large.
Tourists have, historically, given wide berth to the Redguard cities outside of those facing the Iliac Bay. Considering the (mostly deserved) reputation of its people, Hammerfell is frequently seen as intolerant of "foreigners," where trespass is dealt with in blood. This is a shame, and a situation that the Emperor seeks to rectify, for Hammerfell itself is a beautiful country. From the twin moonrises over the Alik'r shade-temples to the austere ramparts of Old Hegathe, everywhere there is the appearance of antique splendor. Its people are harsh but, taken singly, the Redguard is often a masterful work of a man. Perhaps a guiding power like the Empire, steering Hammerfell clear of the foul agents of A'tor's legacy, and protecting her from the avarice of her Elven neighbors, will bring the same prosperity to her people that it seeks to bring to the world.
Places of Note:
Sentinel
Second capital of Hammerfell, Sentinel sits on the edge of the Iliac Bay. It is most definitely a merchant power, for it sits on a rocky run of hills, and the barren plains behind it offer no good soil before they run into the desert sands of the Alik'r. Its principal street is a vast marketplace stretching from the harbor all the way to the badlands gate. Sentinel Palace is the oldest and largest Redguard architectural monument, quickly built during the Ra Gada firestorm to ward against the Bretons and added to ever thereafter. Currently, this Palace is the headquarters of Provisional Governor Senecus Goddkey, who has been helping to administer the Forebear principalities since Baron Volag's disappearance. Since its Imperial reorganization, Sentinel has become an exotic retreat for the nobility of Daggerfall and Wayrest, who delight in its native cooking, craftsmanship, and the bizarre morality-plays of its Royal Theatre.
Stros M'kai
Formerly the principality of Thassad II's heir, A'tor, Stros M'kai's small island serves as the office of Provisional Governor Amiel Richton, who is charged with the protection and patrol of Hammerfell's barbarous southern coast. Lord-Admiral Richton was the officer who defeated Prince A'tor in the Battle of Hunding Bay, and is the latest of a long line of heroes to serve in the Colovian West Navy. Stros M'kai itself would be an unassuming little port, famous only for its Dwemer Ruins, were it not for its presently strategic location near the Cape of the Blue Divide, the waters of the dread Aldmeri Dominion.
[img]http://img430.imageshack.us/img430/3336/oblivionforum5tb.jpg[/img]
Your friendly slavedriver.
Your friendly slavedriver.
In that case, should not Stros M'kai be painstaking created in TR as it appeared in Redguard? or at least the portions represented.Zalzidrax wrote:I wonder if my friend sill has a copy of Redguard. It's set in Stros M'kai, and so has a great deal of information about the town at the very least.
If we do Stros M'kai, we should definitely put statues of Cyrus and Iszara in somewhere.
I was also noting something said about Gilane being outside of Hammerfell because of Daggerfall, but Daggerfall does not span all of Hammerfell but rather the top and middle regions. As I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm currently playing daggerfall now so I think I will move my character to the Hammerfell region and take notes.
Knowledge gleaned from lore books mentioning flora (Flora of Hammerfell, Special Flora of Tamriel, The Sage), Shadow Key storyline, Redguard screenshots (all from TIL), and Daggerfall potion ingredients section (from UESP). Added real world knowledge to descriptions of flora which really exist in order to flesh them out, although I've pointed out where I have done so.
Flora:
Aloe (Vera) –The ancients know well the efficiency of the Aloe. It is a wondrous herb, useful in stanching the flow of blood and in promoting the healing of wounds. It has also been found to lessen the effect of the pox. An elixir may be simply made by combining the liquor from a crushed leaf with purest water. Used in increase stamina potions.
Angelica - A parsley like herb with liquorice flavoured stalk, used to flavour liquors in real world. Known among those who dwell in Hammerfell as a delicacy when crystallised. It has been used to cure flatulence.
Bamboo – Hollow woody, segmented shafts of large, fast growing, hardy tropical grass, used for construction purposes and making paper in real world. Used in "Free Action" and Resist Shock potions.
Basil - This herb is beneficial for reducing swelling in the proboscis [a human nose, especially a prominent one]. It is applied as a poultice [a medical dressing consisting of a soft heated mass of meal or clay that is spread on a cloth and applied to the skin to treat inflamed areas or improve circulation, etc] over the affected area as a precautionary measure, straws should be placed in the nostrils prior to application. A heavily flavoured, low growing, green herb in real life.
Cactus – Drought resistant, succulent, spiny desert plants of greatly varying shape and size in real world. Used in Resist Fire potions.
Fig – Very sweet, juicy fruit, eaten raw (when green), stewed or dried (very sugary), grown on woody trees, shrubs and vines in real world. Used in Cure Disease, "Purification" and Invisibility potions.
Ginko: The Ginko leaves which are found along the banks of rivers and lakes in Hammerfell are most inconspicuous, only their peculiar half-moon shape making them noticeable. The edible foliage is very sweet and quite tasty. Legend has it that when mixed properly with the pulp of the aloe plant, the resulting concoction has the ability of increasing one's stamina for a short while. Used in increased stamina potions. In Daggerfall, it’s named Ginkgo, after the ancient species of Chinese deciduous tree with fan shaped leaves.
Poppy - In both black and white varieties, may be found growing wild in the mountains of Hammerfell. Their succulent pods are often the only nourishment for adventurers who find themselves in the wilderness without rations. It is said that black and white poppies imbibed together have magical properties. When they are crushed and mixed with the milk of the agile-footed mountain goat, the resulting potion allows the user to glide safely aboveground. Golden poppy used in resist poison potions, White and Black poppy used in slowfall potions.
Palm – Tropical tree with unbranched trunk with a crown of long, straight, green leaves in real world. Possibly bears coconuts. Leaves used in water walking potions.
ShadowKey:
Foxglove, Mountaintail, Snow Blossom, Trefoil Flower, and Yuin Root - Skrim herbs, but sold in Dragonstar.
Algae –Revitalises Stamina, found grown in a pool in goblin caverns.
Giant Mushrooms – 5 grey mushrooms, increased speed by a point permanently. Also found in goblin caverns
Vicar Herbs: Used for its healing properties – DragonStar, Hammerfell
Persa Flowers: - Boost unlocking skill when consumed. It’s not mentioned in which province they grow, could be Skyrim, Hammerfell or High Rock.
Other/Unknown Flora:
The Sage [book] – Plants from Hammerfell, combined with other elements, could restore life to the dead, prolong life of the living, and even bestow immortality.
Map of DragonStar city from Shadow Key:
[img]http://til.gamingsource.net/tsosk/dragonstar-annotated.jpg[/img]
I'd only use the map for loose reference. The shape of city buildings and so on should fit in with the rest of Hammerfell architecture, this is the city as of 3E 379. Of course the ShadowGates should probably be removed.
EDIT: Heavily edited to be more concise and improve layout.
Flora:
Aloe (Vera) –The ancients know well the efficiency of the Aloe. It is a wondrous herb, useful in stanching the flow of blood and in promoting the healing of wounds. It has also been found to lessen the effect of the pox. An elixir may be simply made by combining the liquor from a crushed leaf with purest water. Used in increase stamina potions.
Angelica - A parsley like herb with liquorice flavoured stalk, used to flavour liquors in real world. Known among those who dwell in Hammerfell as a delicacy when crystallised. It has been used to cure flatulence.
Bamboo – Hollow woody, segmented shafts of large, fast growing, hardy tropical grass, used for construction purposes and making paper in real world. Used in "Free Action" and Resist Shock potions.
Basil - This herb is beneficial for reducing swelling in the proboscis [a human nose, especially a prominent one]. It is applied as a poultice [a medical dressing consisting of a soft heated mass of meal or clay that is spread on a cloth and applied to the skin to treat inflamed areas or improve circulation, etc] over the affected area as a precautionary measure, straws should be placed in the nostrils prior to application. A heavily flavoured, low growing, green herb in real life.
Cactus – Drought resistant, succulent, spiny desert plants of greatly varying shape and size in real world. Used in Resist Fire potions.
Fig – Very sweet, juicy fruit, eaten raw (when green), stewed or dried (very sugary), grown on woody trees, shrubs and vines in real world. Used in Cure Disease, "Purification" and Invisibility potions.
Ginko: The Ginko leaves which are found along the banks of rivers and lakes in Hammerfell are most inconspicuous, only their peculiar half-moon shape making them noticeable. The edible foliage is very sweet and quite tasty. Legend has it that when mixed properly with the pulp of the aloe plant, the resulting concoction has the ability of increasing one's stamina for a short while. Used in increased stamina potions. In Daggerfall, it’s named Ginkgo, after the ancient species of Chinese deciduous tree with fan shaped leaves.
Poppy - In both black and white varieties, may be found growing wild in the mountains of Hammerfell. Their succulent pods are often the only nourishment for adventurers who find themselves in the wilderness without rations. It is said that black and white poppies imbibed together have magical properties. When they are crushed and mixed with the milk of the agile-footed mountain goat, the resulting potion allows the user to glide safely aboveground. Golden poppy used in resist poison potions, White and Black poppy used in slowfall potions.
Palm – Tropical tree with unbranched trunk with a crown of long, straight, green leaves in real world. Possibly bears coconuts. Leaves used in water walking potions.
ShadowKey:
Foxglove, Mountaintail, Snow Blossom, Trefoil Flower, and Yuin Root - Skrim herbs, but sold in Dragonstar.
Algae –Revitalises Stamina, found grown in a pool in goblin caverns.
Giant Mushrooms – 5 grey mushrooms, increased speed by a point permanently. Also found in goblin caverns
Vicar Herbs: Used for its healing properties – DragonStar, Hammerfell
Persa Flowers: - Boost unlocking skill when consumed. It’s not mentioned in which province they grow, could be Skyrim, Hammerfell or High Rock.
Other/Unknown Flora:
The Sage [book] – Plants from Hammerfell, combined with other elements, could restore life to the dead, prolong life of the living, and even bestow immortality.
Map of DragonStar city from Shadow Key:
[img]http://til.gamingsource.net/tsosk/dragonstar-annotated.jpg[/img]
I'd only use the map for loose reference. The shape of city buildings and so on should fit in with the rest of Hammerfell architecture, this is the city as of 3E 379. Of course the ShadowGates should probably be removed.
EDIT: Heavily edited to be more concise and improve layout.
Not to beat a dead horse, but...
This map, from TES.com,
http://theelderscrolls.com/images/codex/racemaps/racemap03S.jpg
as well as the maps in the Pocket Guide, though low detail, point to there being two big mountain ranges; one on the Northern border with High Rock, and one on the Eastern border with Skyrim. The large Western peninsula has little bits of grass, pointing to it being largely either sporadic forest, foothills or grasslands.
Of course, this is far from detailed, but there is no apparent sign of the mountain ranges shown in the south of those maps you guys have made or on the "deformed boot" peninsula.
And though I'm pretty new, and just a "fan" of TR, it strikes me that these maps of HF are really too green. There isn't one bit of lore I have encountered that suggests that HF isn't pretty much all desert, grasslands and savannah with bits of mountainous regions. Given Oblivion's scale and such, the amount of desert shown on those maps pretty much looks like the largest desert will be roughly a 10 minute walk across.
Here are some tidbits from the Pocket Guide...
"The elves and later the Bretons did set up outposts in what are now Sentinel and Lainlyn in order to protect their fisherfolk and seafaring merchants from the Orcs who had taken over the interior of the land (interior of Hammerfell? If so, Orcish ruins anyone?!?!). Nor were these the only dangers of record. Wind spirits, fire spirits, goblins, trolls, and scorpions the size of horses regularly crept in from the desert, and were rebuffed at the frontier, sometimes at a terrible cost."
Now, on Zeph's map, Sentinel is somewhat close to the desert while Lainlyn is pretty much smack-dab in the middle of a forest, buffered by some mountains -- nowhere near the deserts that these monsters would have crept in from.
"They [the Redguards] adapted to the harsh desert of their new homeland and made a former wasteland into a power to be reckoned with."
"It was desolation, a wasteland where hot winds blew over burning rock, and the only feet that walked the sands belonged to monsters."
"...predators from the inland desert prowled the empty streets, and the harsh elements took their toll as well." - refering to abandoned Rourken Dwemer cities along the Southern coasts after the disappearance of the Dwemers.
Lastly, the Imperial Library (although far from canon), states:
"The colonization of Hammerfell was a slow process, since it was mainly a barren and rocky place, with the vast Alik'r desert in the center, and only a few grasslands that hugged the coastline in horseshoe fashion."
Anyway, like I said, I'm new and I might not have the "street creds" to be taken seriously, but I'm just trying to add constructively to the conversation...
This map, from TES.com,
http://theelderscrolls.com/images/codex/racemaps/racemap03S.jpg
as well as the maps in the Pocket Guide, though low detail, point to there being two big mountain ranges; one on the Northern border with High Rock, and one on the Eastern border with Skyrim. The large Western peninsula has little bits of grass, pointing to it being largely either sporadic forest, foothills or grasslands.
Of course, this is far from detailed, but there is no apparent sign of the mountain ranges shown in the south of those maps you guys have made or on the "deformed boot" peninsula.
And though I'm pretty new, and just a "fan" of TR, it strikes me that these maps of HF are really too green. There isn't one bit of lore I have encountered that suggests that HF isn't pretty much all desert, grasslands and savannah with bits of mountainous regions. Given Oblivion's scale and such, the amount of desert shown on those maps pretty much looks like the largest desert will be roughly a 10 minute walk across.
Here are some tidbits from the Pocket Guide...
"The elves and later the Bretons did set up outposts in what are now Sentinel and Lainlyn in order to protect their fisherfolk and seafaring merchants from the Orcs who had taken over the interior of the land (interior of Hammerfell? If so, Orcish ruins anyone?!?!). Nor were these the only dangers of record. Wind spirits, fire spirits, goblins, trolls, and scorpions the size of horses regularly crept in from the desert, and were rebuffed at the frontier, sometimes at a terrible cost."
Now, on Zeph's map, Sentinel is somewhat close to the desert while Lainlyn is pretty much smack-dab in the middle of a forest, buffered by some mountains -- nowhere near the deserts that these monsters would have crept in from.
"They [the Redguards] adapted to the harsh desert of their new homeland and made a former wasteland into a power to be reckoned with."
"It was desolation, a wasteland where hot winds blew over burning rock, and the only feet that walked the sands belonged to monsters."
"...predators from the inland desert prowled the empty streets, and the harsh elements took their toll as well." - refering to abandoned Rourken Dwemer cities along the Southern coasts after the disappearance of the Dwemers.
Lastly, the Imperial Library (although far from canon), states:
"The colonization of Hammerfell was a slow process, since it was mainly a barren and rocky place, with the vast Alik'r desert in the center, and only a few grasslands that hugged the coastline in horseshoe fashion."
Anyway, like I said, I'm new and I might not have the "street creds" to be taken seriously, but I'm just trying to add constructively to the conversation...
That's odd... the PGE's map of Hammerfell shows 8 major cities, not one of which is Sutch.Nomadic1 wrote:Even though I don't have Oblivion, I've already found some Hammerfell lore we will need...
They moved Sutch to Hammerfell.Thief of Virtue wrote:In the land of Hammerfell in the city of Sutch ...
[Edit]
<Snipped out>
[/edit]
Last edited by PoHa! on Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hmm... so there is... but it should be here too, no?Macar wrote:There is already a typed up version of the whole thing in the PGE thread.
Also, I've just found a "Fort Sutch" in Cyrodiil. Is this supposed to be the remnants of Sutch, or do we believe the book, and say that Sutch is actually in Hammerfell?Sload quoting PGE wrote:Current Events(Centered)
Following the Miracle of Peace, the Forebear kingdom of Sentinel grew to encompass the entirity of the northern coast of Hammerfell, from Abibon-Gora in the west to Satakalaam in the east, at the mouth of the Bjoulsae River. As most of the formerly independent lands in this northern area were Crown in sympathy, King Lhotun has continually been involved in military diplomatic, and even in religious missions to keep them under his wing. Lhotun has been forced to create what some consider a third party, one with reverence for the Yokudan past but respect for the Imperial ways, which is appropriately enough called the Lhotunic.
Perhaps not surprisingly, the moderate Lhotunics have attracted nothing but contempt from the Crown and Forebear kingdoms alike. Clavilla, the Queen of Taneth, has tried without success to have the charters of the independent guilds revoked from all Sentinel lands, saying that the accepted worship of Satakal is grounds enough for heresy against the Empire. Ayaan-si, High PRophet of Elinhir, has called upon the "True Crowns" of the north to rebel against Lhotun, and financed a number of forays against teh borders in Bergama and Dak'fron. His one success, this far, has been significant. The land of Totambu, named in the ancient days after the Na-Totambu of Yokuda, the progenitors of the Crowns, has refered to his fold and declared independence from Sentinel. As Lhotun's kingdom surrounds Totambu on all four sides, it is questionable how much longer it can assert itself, but at the time of this writing, its people are holding their resistance.
Eastern Hammerfell, less concerned with Sentinel, has continued its effors to take back the lands conquered by Skyrim in the War of Bend'r-Mahk. There is no question that Redguards, while currently lacking the cohesiveness as a sociey to forn effective armies, are excellent warriors and unmatched at guerilla warfare. Still, little ground has been regained, for the Nords too are renowned warriors.
Grr... I think we should make an underground contingent. I love our satakal concepts, and I dont want to part with them.
NEW MEMBERS: I'm not with TR anymore, so please stop PMing me. Just post your sample work in the showcase.
[url=http://www.realmsofrenth.com][img]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3020/banner3er0.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.realmsofrenth.com][img]http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3020/banner3er0.jpg[/img][/url]
What? Satakal isn't going anywhere, its not like being called a heresy got rid of the Tribunal, the Aedra, the Daedra, the End of Times Cult, every single religious group that met another religious group in the history of always..
Satakal has no reason for not being in the open. And I hearby declare every religion except Sloadism and Pastafarianism a heresy, for good measure.
Satakal has no reason for not being in the open. And I hearby declare every religion except Sloadism and Pastafarianism a heresy, for good measure.
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nabO_UXb6MM]This is not my life[/url]
-
CleverClothe
- Developer
- Posts: 907
- Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:29 am
- Location: Everett, WA
- Contact:
There is another interesting part in the PGE mentioning the Redguard to add:
The guide does mention that there hasn't been any activity in 30 years, but who knows.PGE 3rd ed., pg 102, second to last paragraph wrote: (speaking of Thras and the Sload....)
The reach of Thras has been felt far beyond its own land. The Thrassian Plague which decimated Tamriel's population in the year 2260 of the First Era was their most egregious attack against the mainland, but other, subtler predations have also been recorded. When the Redguards came to Tamriel in 1E 808, they brought with them the tradition of burying their criminals on the islands off their shore, to prevent their evil spirits from disturbing the living. The Sload took advantage of these graveyards off the coast, finding them suitable laboratories for their necromancy. The Redguards pushed back against the invaders, but reports of Sload living near the settled lands from Stros M'Kai to Abibon-Gora have surfaced well into the Third Era.
As you may have read we've been planning to develope the Isle of Stirk first. We're now discussing these ideas.-
Anonymous
This might seem obvious, but its something I was unsure about while reading this thread up until a point...
Seems like the crowns/baronys are Hereditary. Its not like in some societies where new leaders are elected (eg Ancient Rome) or done by who is best. This would definitely imply a sort of 'house' system like the Dunmer society, to a far lesser extent, of course. As well as the ruling houses one might expect other households made up from the ranks of that ruling class mentioned earlier, which could lead to a political set of quests. In hereditary systems there are usually a few houses which periodically change power either through competition, coups, public demand or just plain inbreeding. I think that the term 'crowns' is directly linked to this: after all, if each person has a different title (king...baron...duke...) then it woud be easier to call them a collective term like 'crowns'. One could essentially say that each city state has a 'crown' to which several families are attached, each occasionally gaining control of that crown.
On Propaganda...well I dont think the entire city walks around naked. I do however think that it would be unwise to discount the whole story. It is probably a very hot place, so a lack of clothing would be understandable. Due to imperialisation the practice has probably been discouraged, but I think it would be wrong of us to not put in some people with less attire than usual.
On the naming of cities...I too think that some should obviously be renamed slightly. The whole 'Verkath City' thing is probably just a distinction that the Imperials made to tell the difference between the state of Verkath and the city it is named after. However we could make this distinction by calling the area "Verkath Forest" or "Verkath Plains" or whatever geographical type is around there. Likewise, where we have things like 'Nimbel Moor' we just need to make the area around there look like a moor (highlands, sparse vegetation, lots of rain...im off to dartmoor in a few hours!) and make Corten Mont a mountain, etc etc. I think its all to do with how the imperials refer to them..."Im off to Lainbon","The forest?","No the PLACE..." eventually led to it being known at Lainbon place. For local purposes these extra bits should be taken off. The names you have marked as needing overhaul, I agree with. Far too generic. Ill just rattle off a few things from the top of my head (with no backup from any lore, just an experiment in Redguard sounding names)
Malkarth
Sinlan
Verborn
Drane
Cornek
Macil
Tegrand
On Factions: There is an extra one you missed, from the game Redguard. They are called the Restless League and are a group of anti-imperial freedom fighters. Their insignia is...well...boring:
http://til.gamingsource.net/rgbooks/restless_league.jpg
In Redguard they are shown as pirates, but due to the problems with that (ie ships...) it might be better to portray them as general scallywags. There is logic behind this: Redguard takes place on an island, so of course they would have to be maritime-based. On the mainland they would have to leave their ships to get anything good done. This wouldnt be a major guild, just like the Redguard version of the Camonna Tong, a nice compliment to the thieves guild.
Seems like the crowns/baronys are Hereditary. Its not like in some societies where new leaders are elected (eg Ancient Rome) or done by who is best. This would definitely imply a sort of 'house' system like the Dunmer society, to a far lesser extent, of course. As well as the ruling houses one might expect other households made up from the ranks of that ruling class mentioned earlier, which could lead to a political set of quests. In hereditary systems there are usually a few houses which periodically change power either through competition, coups, public demand or just plain inbreeding. I think that the term 'crowns' is directly linked to this: after all, if each person has a different title (king...baron...duke...) then it woud be easier to call them a collective term like 'crowns'. One could essentially say that each city state has a 'crown' to which several families are attached, each occasionally gaining control of that crown.
On Propaganda...well I dont think the entire city walks around naked. I do however think that it would be unwise to discount the whole story. It is probably a very hot place, so a lack of clothing would be understandable. Due to imperialisation the practice has probably been discouraged, but I think it would be wrong of us to not put in some people with less attire than usual.
On the naming of cities...I too think that some should obviously be renamed slightly. The whole 'Verkath City' thing is probably just a distinction that the Imperials made to tell the difference between the state of Verkath and the city it is named after. However we could make this distinction by calling the area "Verkath Forest" or "Verkath Plains" or whatever geographical type is around there. Likewise, where we have things like 'Nimbel Moor' we just need to make the area around there look like a moor (highlands, sparse vegetation, lots of rain...im off to dartmoor in a few hours!) and make Corten Mont a mountain, etc etc. I think its all to do with how the imperials refer to them..."Im off to Lainbon","The forest?","No the PLACE..." eventually led to it being known at Lainbon place. For local purposes these extra bits should be taken off. The names you have marked as needing overhaul, I agree with. Far too generic. Ill just rattle off a few things from the top of my head (with no backup from any lore, just an experiment in Redguard sounding names)
Malkarth
Sinlan
Verborn
Drane
Cornek
Macil
Tegrand
On Factions: There is an extra one you missed, from the game Redguard. They are called the Restless League and are a group of anti-imperial freedom fighters. Their insignia is...well...boring:
http://til.gamingsource.net/rgbooks/restless_league.jpg
In Redguard they are shown as pirates, but due to the problems with that (ie ships...) it might be better to portray them as general scallywags. There is logic behind this: Redguard takes place on an island, so of course they would have to be maritime-based. On the mainland they would have to leave their ships to get anything good done. This wouldnt be a major guild, just like the Redguard version of the Camonna Tong, a nice compliment to the thieves guild.
-
Nomadic1
- Developer Emeritus
- Posts: 3338
- Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 7:34 am
- Location: Adelaide, Australia
Not only that, but the Restless League was also crown loyal. It seems redundant heaving them a separate faction...
Unless...
The Restless League is made active in coastal Forebear loyal places, such as Rihad, furthering Crown interests. Their base would of course be on Stros M'Kai, so if the Restless League makes it into TR, Stros M'Kai should be made before the Restless League is established as a faction. They certainly would not operate out of anywhere near hostile Forebear territory, and Stros M'Kai is probably the safest place.
Unless...
The Restless League is made active in coastal Forebear loyal places, such as Rihad, furthering Crown interests. Their base would of course be on Stros M'Kai, so if the Restless League makes it into TR, Stros M'Kai should be made before the Restless League is established as a faction. They certainly would not operate out of anywhere near hostile Forebear territory, and Stros M'Kai is probably the safest place.