Bards Guild

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:52 am

Should thier be a Bards Guild?

Yes 10
Yes not jion: 0

No 1

Katse · Post by **Katse** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 8:44 am

For those who vote "No",

.

Katse

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:01 am

I say, we will give them a bard time.

Greetings

Quentin

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:24 am

go bards

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:25 am

I also say yes to the Bards

.
But I see a problem to give Music to them.
First of all there is no skill that curent represent the ability to sing or play a instrument and this is next to speechcraft the mainskill of a bard.
Second we have to change the existing instruments and implement new Instruments and also add a code to them so that the player can realy play music.

Katse · Post by **Katse** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 11:08 am

I don't know anything about coding, but I've wonderful pictures of medieval instruments and music samples of medieval music for reference. Though I don't really see the need to actually have the PC "play", just do it the same as in Eight Plates in Balmora.

Playing music requires three skills, in my view: Agility (you need agile fingers to hit the notes correctly), Speechcraft (can double as vocal training), and the most important, Intelligence. If you want to take on the metaphysical idea that music is soothing and relaxing, and is in some ways a form of magic, then make Restoration (ie. ability to relax people and soothe mental stresses of life by listening to good music) a requirement as well. I think that should pretty much cover it.

Quentin: Cute pun.

I "treble" at the thought of you giving anyone a "bard" time.

Katse

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:26 pm

As for magic, Illusion also would make sense, as in magical entertainment. And whatever cathegory charm is in.

How did you like the instruments I found? Did anyone even look at them

?

As for scripting, I don't see a problem; just use the entertainers plug, and maybe add some more possibbilities (play the (instrument) comes to mind).

One might also consider a quest where the PC has to take part in an orchestra - step in for a famous bard, that is sick/dead/kidnapped, maybe? - and, like in the show piece in Mournhold (which I loved - too bad Telvanni have no sense of humor

), you have to strike the right chords, or sing the right vocals. You're given some time to memorize them, and then, let's go!

Other random bard ideas:

- implement the Ministrel's hat from Hollow's objects
- Bards have to dress up -> good clothing becomes important
- if acting, dress according to your role (will be evaluated by a script - can't play a beggar when you're dressed in exquistite clothes)
- have Bard NPCs in Vvardenfell be part of the guild, and act accordingly
- have tavern bards play songs you want them to (music box script, there're a bunch of such mods around, activate via dialogue); also, be able to teach them new songs b giving them song books
- minnesÃƒÂ¤nger quests - woo on some clumsy noble's behalf for the woman/man of his/her dreams (male/female exclusive quests I think).

Well, that's it for now.

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 12:50 pm

Excellent ideas, Hermit

and yes, I took a look at the instruments. Dongle has done an exceptional job - again. :goodjob:

Although I thnk that it's high time that somebody out there makes a flute ... or flutes.

I have a quite old mod (I'm not even sure it has ever been completed, but parts of it have been done) which is called 'Playable Lutes'. I'll search for it and upload it here ... if I find it that is (half a dozen disorganized CDs full packed with mods

). I think it is self-explanatory what it does.

It would be a great addition, I think

[quote]- minnesÃƒÂ¤nger quests - woo on some clumsy noble's behalf for the woman/man of his/her dreams (male/female exclusive quests I think). [quote]That's a great idea, maybe add some touch of 'Cyrano de Bergerac' to it. Either the bard falls for the woman or - even better I think - the woman falls for the bard and the noble gets quite annoyed and threatens to kill the bard in a duel and only quick wits and a silvery tongue will save the poor guy.

I think that bards will allow us to add more 'romantic moments' to the world ... I truly hope the hack-and-slash faction will forgive me, but I think this is something Morrowind lacks.

Enough for now ... where are those playable lutes?

And Katse: where I come from, we call it 'a rock and a bard place'

Greetings

Quentin

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:16 pm

Yeah, flutes - I think I could ask Vorrheis, or maybe even LadyE, to do this. I'll search for medieval instruments right now. Should be simple, too - just take parts of that 'bamboo' sticks (dried marshmarrow?) the guar cart is made of, and add stuff to the texture, and maybe a mouthpiece and an end texture, and voila! there's the flute.

We'd also need Lytes, barrel organs (a dwemer instrument? very rare? maybe even a giant steam organ in some hidden, lost dwemer temple? Whee, that could make a good archaeologists quest, too), and more lute varieties - rare lutes, famouts lutes, famous, unique instruments in general.

Ah, and if we could make PC animations, playing, we could also add bards playing the instrument. We could declare it a weapon, have it equip like that, and have it do no damage whatsoever - but we'd have to implement a script disabling the 'less-disposition-because-armend' script. Then, a "custom weapon" animation could be used to either display NPCs playing instruments (would greatly liven up taverns!), or make a cutscene of the PC playing when entertaining (should be possible to do in a way that only one script is needed, Amalia's daughters (a crappy prostitudes mod otherwise) did something similar). Similar things could be done with dancing (we have that anim already) and teling jokes; we'd just need a facial laugh animation, maybe a bit of body language, for the audience. That would really liven up entertaining patrons.

More random bard ideas:
- Escort a famous bard on a tour through Morrowind (side quests: fend of Assassins, smoothe things with badly tempered guards, negotiate with tavern owners, find out which member of the team is trying to poison the bard). Large Super-quest with lots of sub quests, side uests, ect.
- retieve famous instruments for a bard
- negotiate with daedric princes, to have a bard granted special musical abilities in exchange for his service to the daedra (anyone seen 'O brother where art thou'?)
- Rise in the ranks of the bards guild by entertaining patrons as well as doing quests
- have unique bards' clothes that positively influence the audience (and again, make dress important to audience reaction to one's performancs)
- Be able to just *watch* plays, in a cut scene, in the Mournhopld theatre (should be short, around five minutes, but nicely done). Help out on other plays. Maybe some books in the Great Library could be made into plays? Would requite a ton of voice recording though ...

go bards!

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:52 pm

also I forgot to say this but post you view and ideas about it or I won't count your vote.

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:16 pm

Sorry, but what is this supposed to mean?

I apologize, if this sounds a bit rough (no offense intended), but what is this poll about then?

Are we going do decide here or is this a general survey? If it is a survey, I don't think there is a need to rectify or explain your vote. If it is a decision, then you should have said so in your first post and maybe shouldn't have made a poll, but ask for peoples' opinion, with a request that they add an 'Aye!' or 'Nay!' in their post, otherwise it wouldn't count.

But to make things absolute clear: I voted with yes, I think it would be a great addition, adding depth, entertainment and various aspects to the game, Joe Barbarian can't provide.

Bards would add to the intelligence/riddle/wittiness aspects of role-playing.

And I am a bard myself, I want to play, erm, me

, so ...

Make a joinable Bard faction.

Greetings

Quentin

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:20 pm

I posted about the bards' guild on LadyE's forums. So far, the response was positive. Hopefully, someone there will join us, in our quest to keep Tamriel entertained

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:30 pm

... another aspect: jokes, puns, humourous stories.

I think especially with a stern race like the Dunmer, it is necessary that there is somebody around, who cheers them up ... or rather dies trying.

(This is the story of the unlucky fate of the famous Bard Simpson *ducks away*, who told his final joke to the Patriarch of the Temple.

"How many Dunmer do you need to replace an extinguished candle?" "???" "Only one, but it will take him years to replace even one, because hundreds of Acolytes would have to search through thousands of books and scrolls to find out how it has to be done properly. Buahaha."

Until today nobody was ever able to find out what truly happened to the Bard Simpson)

Greetings

Quentin

Katse · Post by **Katse** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 9:44 pm

*Starts throwing tomatoes at Quentin*

Arcadea, seeing that I came up with the idea for the guild, I think you can pretty much guess what my views are on it.

I also have a long list of instruments I'll post up later--all of which would have been around in the Roman Era/medieval ages--nothing from the Renaissance or later.

I'm happy everyone is so interested in the Bards Guild--I just wanted to have it as a guild because I've only ever been good at writing lyrics--I'd love to roleplay as someone who could actually play an instrument.

Katse

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:11 pm

I've always found it strange that BethSoft was so much on the hack&slay track. I'd like to see more roleplay opportinuties. And have those lutes, drums and whatnot finally put to good use. And the bard class. And all those bards just standing around in Vvardenfell's taverns, sad. And there's this magnificent enterntainment idea - why didn't they make more of it?

Well, that's our mission now. And we shall make a bards guild to remember.

I'm looking forward to your scetches, Katse. I'll go and look for 3dmax models, now; if I find some, I'll post them here, and get someone with 3Dmax to export them (Monk? Ra'Jevir?).

So, if need be, to make my vote count, YES! YES! and YES!!

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:30 pm

I vote yes, because I think a bards guild would be awesome!!! I also have tons of knowledge on medieval instruments and music and stuff like that, so now we have two sources of info, and I'd love to go around Tamriel singing and dancing and being jovial!!!

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 10:40 pm

Welcome aboard haplo!

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 1:22 am

Yeah, welcome aboard. Bards united it is.

And Katse, thanks for the tomatoes, I haven't had a proper meal for weeks, so your presents are appreciated very much.

Until now I haven't found the playable lutes on my discs, but there must be a link to a site with tons of models of instruments for 3dsMax. I'll search for that as well.

Greetings

Quentin.

P.S.: and here's a famous song, 'A Bard day's night' by The Buggles ... or was it The Silt Striders?

Quentin

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:16 am

i too also agree with all the sayings of the answer of the yes that agrees with yes that also means the no's opposite who though are 1 now but no to the yes is not the yes that was chose by the ones who chose and said yes to the yes and yes to no opposite and . . .

i mean YES to the bard guild which is the opposite of NO. if you did not understand before now you can.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:22 am

ti tog i

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 3:28 am

tog s'rehto eht tog eno eht sa rehto hcae morf tog evah htob ew hcihw won tog i thaw tog dna ti got ouy neht dna ti was ouy nehw tog ouy tahw si hcihw osla dais ouy tahw tog i

Katse · Post by **Katse** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 4:40 am

*starts forming a union to be protected from such outbreaks of silliness*

Katse

Sniper4 · Post by **Sniper4** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 6:25 am

I just like the idea of having another guild to choose from. Also, we should make the Bard's guild quests increase reputation as well. Afterall, what is the purpose of being a romantic, silver-tongued stud that all the ladies dream of, if no one knows about you. Plus, everyone should remember me if I'm the one waking them up at 2 A.M. singing "Three Blind Mice" at the top of my lungs, and doing it highly off key might I add

. Of course, when I think about it, no one in Morrowind sleeps anyway. They are always up at all hours at the night watching me as I walk through the town, and saying the same things over and over again ("how fair thee friend" "What is it Nord?" ).

Earl · Post by **Earl** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 9:53 am

I'm the one 'no' vote.

Not because I think it's a bad idea; because I remain unconvinced that it can be implemented in a way that doesn't seem. . . lame.

Bards are about singing, playing instruments, telling jokes, and theater [it might be cool to see some 'which cup is the ball under?' gambling stuff too].

How are you going to sing? Chose some option in dialog that says something like 'I will sing now / I demand 100 more gold to sing / I refuse to sing'? Then what? You stand around on a stage for some set amount of time? Do you rip an MP3 from some opera CD and set it to play right then, forcing the player to stand around until it's done? Might be okay, if it's short. . . and if you can rig it up to look like the PC's mouth is moving [I hear this happens when you 'talk' to daedric statues, or rather they talk to you]. . .

How are you going to play an instrument? Make them a class of weapons, that you strum/blow differently with respect to slash/chop/thrust? Rig it up so you have to play notes this way in a certain way for a quest to be completed? I remember something about it being impossible to make new weapon types, so I have no idea how one could go about playing instruments. . .

How do you tell jokes? Via dialog? What, do you pick from a list? Thrilling - do I tell the one about the Guar crossing the road, the two Dunmer and an Altmer walking into a tavern, or the Archcannon and the underage mer? I tell the wrong one for the wrong crowd, and they attack me? Yay, bard is a stealth-type, so I get killed! Or maybe I get jailed instead. Still, picking a joke out of a pre-made list doesn't strike me as fun.

In all fairness to theater, I haven't done that particular Tribunal quest. I can't imagine it's much more than dialog with lists of choices of lines to say. . . which sounds boring to me. I think if it were an NPC-only affair, it would be more interesting since you wouldn't get dialog boxes popping up to break up the voice acting. . .

If someone knows how those things could be done within the game, and done interestingly, I'd change my tune.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:51 am

Earl,

Some of the points you criticized have already been discussed further up. I do take that criticism seriously, so I'll give my best to answer to it.

"Bards are about singing, playing instruments, telling jokes, and theater [it might be cool to see some 'which cup is the ball under?' gambling stuff too]. "

Yes, gambling would be cool, as would be card game mini-games (anyone played Final Fantasy 8? That type of game, maybe?). And don't forget dancing (

)

.

(Random bard idea: mini-games)

"How are you going to sing? Chose some option in dialog that says something like 'I will sing now / I demand 100 more gold to sing / I refuse to sing'? Then what? You stand around on a stage for some set amount of time? Do you rip an MP3 from some opera CD and set it to play right then, forcing the player to stand around until it's done? Might be okay, if it's short. . . and if you can rig it up to look like the PC's mouth is moving [I hear this happens when you 'talk' to daedric statues, or rather they talk to you]. . . "

For now, we'd think that it would work more or less like the 'entertainers' plug. So, yes, you'd pick a topic, then an action happens (if it can be done, a cutscene will be played), then you either get moey or tomatoes.

"How are you going to play an instrument? Make them a class of weapons, that you strum/blow differently with respect to slash/chop/thrust? Rig it up so you have to play notes this way in a certain way for a quest to be completed? I remember something about it being impossible to make new weapon types, so I have no idea how one could go about playing instruments. . . "

Actually, that was the idea. None of us did know wether it was impossible to make new weapon classes (8o); if it is so, maybe we make it a piece of clothing (most likely armour; you cannot possibly be armoured when performing anyway). Also, this was as much a PC idea as something for NPCs, like bards (there are quite some around in Vvardenfell) that double as music boxes for a fee (and wear instruments; would be funny if they'd conjure music out of thin air, right?

. Also, one could have the PC take part in an orchestra (where you are offered *basic* choices in how you play, a lot like the theater), which would also requite them to "wear" an instrument. and lastly, an enchanted instrument could even double as a weapon (producing magical effects), but for that, we'd need control over which attach is executed, and I have no idea wether this can be done.

(Random bard idea: solve a riddle by playing music: "Rig it up so you have to play notes this way in a certain way for a quest to be completed".)

"How do you tell jokes? Via dialog? What, do you pick from a list? Thrilling - do I tell the one about the Guar crossing the road, the two Dunmer and an Altmer walking into a tavern, or the Archcannon and the underage mer? I tell the wrong one for the wrong crowd, and they attack me? Yay, bard is a stealth-type, so I get killed! Or maybe I get jailed instead. Still, picking a joke out of a pre-made list doesn't strike me as fun."

The entertainers way, so much less immersive (basically, a test on speechcraft. A quest based on specific jokes to entertain a bunch of nobles might be possible, though.

(Random bard idea: A quest thatb involves entertaining people on some banquest; like, telling the right jokes at the right time, kinda an extended version of 'as I hear areall Telvanni, with less hack&slay', might be fun).

"In all fairness to theater, I haven't done that particular Tribunal quest. I can't imagine it's much more than dialog with lists of choices of lines to say. . . which sounds boring to me. I think if it were an NPC-only affair, it would be more interesting since you wouldn't get dialog boxes popping up to break up the voice acting. . . "

Of course, if you didn't like the theater, you'll propably hate our idea altogether. But there were people who enjoyed the theater quest - like me - and who generally enjoy such things.

If you don't like it, it's your opinion, no hard feelings on that. Some people like this style of gaming, others that. But I don't see how variety can hurt. If you're more into mission based hack and slay, nothing wrong with that, and you'll have a myriad quests that will offer exactly that. However, if you're more into the roleplay type of gaming, and want to see a riddle or two every once in a while, you're much harder pressed to find such quests. All we do is make sure such gamers will have something for them, too. The bards will be roleplay-focused. So will the courtesans, but in a different way. The Archaelologists will have much more riddles, and even make it nescessary to read books for research at some points, demanding a little bit of adventure-like thinking. None, in my opinion, threatens either the quality of TR or the fun for everyone.

Prowler · Post by **Prowler** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 11:11 am

and how about killing the compition? Finding out some gosip to make another bard les populair, killing his lover or qeust to find the Drum of Jasan Nil Naro, the famous redgaurd Bard? ect, ect, ect I doesnt have to be, just preforming.

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 2:52 pm

Bards united, look what I found!

Heh. That opens up quite some possibilities, at least for NPC bards, doesn't it?

Any animator, do you think those animatiopns can be transferred on PC/NPC characters?

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:02 pm

what is that that you brought to the attention of us all as a group of TR people?

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 9:17 am

It's a Christmas gift from LadyE. Musicians playing instruments ... oh dear, drooling time again.

BTW, anybody interested or in need of genuine songs or poems for bards?

Though my time is somewhat limited and though creativity isn't a steady stream, I'm willing to provide those in need with heroic battle songs, depressingly melancholy love poems ... and sometimes the one or other limerick.

Say the word, name the topic ... I'll see what I can do.

Greetings

Quentin

Geowulf · Post by **Geowulf** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 11:14 am

Here are some songtitles that need lyrics (from the entertainers plugin):

Bold Admiral Richton
The Golden Grove
The Twelve-Night Drunk
Island Lads Down from the Mountain
Beans, Bloody Beans
Olga's Smickett
Black Fredas
The Imperial Volunteer
Down by the Ginger Garden
Roll, Bretonnia, Roll
The Isle of Summerset
Dark Blooded Foes
Dawn and Dusk
Farewell to Colovia
Wind and Rain
Green and Gracious Land
The Jolly Archer
Sorrow Waters
Inkkit Hinkit
Pilgrim on the Road
I'm Glad I'm Not No Orc

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:26 pm

If you could do that, Quentin, that would be so great. What good are bards without songs and poems? And, any tamrielic lyrics you can produce will be valued additions to the books of Tamriel, I think. We've got way too much novels, we need more poetry.

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:56 pm

I'll give it a shot as soon as possible ... 21

*sigh*.

Hehe, some of the titles are already providing some sort of first inspiration.

This is my second attempt on P.O.D. ... poetry-on-demand

and the first one was quite successful.

O.K. If I count my band, it's the third one.

Greetings

Quentin

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 1:57 pm

Yea 10 votes.

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:32 pm

Hey yo! Good news.

One question, since I can't access my usual ressources, I need help. Is there somewhere in all the various books, scrolls, letters 'pork' mentioned? I try further, but it would be too kind, if anybody would help me out.

Greetings

Quentin

Hermit · Post by **Hermit** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 5:59 pm

Does that mean bards are a go? Yahoo

There are pigs in Tamriel (was in that imperial census document, I think, where livestock and population of some village were counted, also in How Ornisium passed to the orcs and the 2029 series). And where's pig, there's gotta be pork too.

Geowulf · Post by **Geowulf** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:01 pm

A dance in the fire, chapter 3, fourth last paragraph:

Scotti did not know if he was capable of eating a creature as intelligent as a man or mer, but he surprised himself, as he had done several times over the last days. It was rich, succulent, and sweet, like sugared pork , but no seasonings had been added. He surveyed the crowd as he ate. A sad lot, some still weeping for lost family members. They were the survivors of both the villages of Grenos and Athay, and war was on every person's lips. Why had the Khajiiti attacked again? Why -- specifically directed at Scotti, as a Cyrodiil -- why was the Emperor not enforcing peace in his provinces?

Quentin Fortune · Post by **Quentin Fortune** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 6:09 pm

Thanks a lot Hermit and Geowulf,

very good, very good indeed. Geez, some rhymes are more difficult than others

Greetings

Quentin

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:13 pm

pork? that rhymes with something that you are using right? if you are then i am right.

Arcadea · Post by **Arcadea** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:16 pm

Katse I'm having trouble with the admins. I'm not sure if I can get it passed. I'll try but feer for the worst. I'm sorry I'll try but seems not much hope.

wererat · Post by **wererat** » Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:24 pm

what you do is go up to the admins and say 'if you dont pass this guild thingy ill leave right now and never come back!' then if they say OK you go now then you say you were joking around and youre not leaving and that this guild is foolish and they are da bomb.
good luck!