WSG#11 Swordsingers: Warrior Monks of Hammerfell.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:07 am

Awesome Dex. When you finally settle on a style that you're happy with, could you please upload it in a high resolution for skinning and wallpaper purposes?

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 9:24 am

For a little inspiration concerning warrior monks, consider reading the K.J Parker "Scavenger" series, and the sections on Sword Monks. Their whole idea is that they don't need armour because the steel circle of life and death (i.e. the reach of their blades) protects them. They are the closest thing I can imagine to Swordsingers.

Graff.

Hayden · Post by **Hayden** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:51 pm

In drawing the Swordsinger, I attempted an even mix of Middle and Far Eastern styles. He turned out a bit too ninja-esque for my tastes. My idea for the blades was instead of a tanglible conjured sword, that the blade was instead a kind of projection of the Swordsinger's arms as blades. Just a thought. As with others there is no armor. In designing this costume, I was hoping to make a protective garment to save one from the desert's heat and the intense sunlight.

[url=http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsinger2ve.jpg][img]http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4082/swordsinger2ve.th.jpg[/img][/url]
I also made this "Scary" version

[url=http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsinger29ph.jpg][img]http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/716/swordsinger29ph.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 1:59 pm

Really nice atmosphere in that picture... i feel like i'm going to get my ass kicked just looking at it. I really like the style, but I think the spirit swords on the arms isn't quite the Swordsinger style, and it could prove impossible to implement in the game.

We also won't know how exactly our concept will work until we see the combat system. It might even prove better to have our Swordsingers carry a small buckler for attack deflection then their bracers... it depends on how well the unarmoured skill is designed.

Vholdrian · Post by **Vholdrian** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 3:26 pm

I am SO bad at anatomy that I won't even try to draw a figure. But I've drawn some kind of tanto that I'll expect them to use.

[url=http://img208.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wsgxweapon3ey.jpg][img]http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/5978/wsgxweapon3ey.th.jpg[/img][/url]

It's basicly following the Japanese original design, only the blade is a little bit more curved.

BTW: I did this in a few minutes, I just want to show which weapons I expect them to use. So don't count this one with the WSG11 drawings.

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:20 pm

Okay, here's what I've come up with. I wanted to make him look more like a redguard and thus he simply came to look like a desert type warrior. The cloth around the shoulders can be cast off when getting ready for a fight.
The colored one is my first attempt at coloring with photoshop and I guess it came out pretty well.
The anatomy is a bit crooked because that's not really my strongest point.

[url=http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsinger1br.png][img]http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/8600/swordsinger1br.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsingercolor4ns.png][img]http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/8687/swordsingercolor4ns.th.png[/img][/url]

While drawing this I thought of this, giving them dreadlocked hair seems realistic, because if they live in the desert they won't be able to clean it alot and they won't have time to comb it. Thus their frizzy hair will form dreads. Ofcourse they might shave it off aswell but if they have any hair at all, I think it's very likely to be dreaded.

groza528 · Post by **groza528** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:40 pm

Thanks Macar

I was around a while back, did a couple of exteriors and a bit of quest reviewing but lately I've just been lurking. I've been meaning to submit something for one of these sketch groups... the fact that this is the first non-architecture one is coincidence.
Invisible describes my idea, I guess, but not exactly. My thought (though this would be nigh impossible to implement, I suspect) is that the spirit-sword isn't "summoned" the same way a daedric dagger is, but rather is formed by the specific motions of the Swordsinger's attack, and thus only exists while in motion.

Vholdrian · Post by **Vholdrian** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:47 pm

groza528 wrote:and thus only exists while in motion.

Well that's cool. I thought such things only happend in cheap MMORPG's and Anime series LOL...

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:54 pm

The blades in motion idea is good, but in terms of how the game works, I think its impossible, and the Swordsinger books stated that swords take physical form.

Third one from me... the focus of this pic are the bracers and the clothing... ignore the funky chicken front kick thing.

[url=http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wsg11swordsingermo4a2zu.jpg][img]http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3728/wsg11swordsingermo4a2zu.th.jpg[/img][/url]

xx_chromosome · Post by **xx_chromosome** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 9:46 am

hey, humm.....how's everyone?

anyways, here are some of my intrepretations from the book. just read morden's last post... and happens that almost 1/2 of my drawings are more of the 'energetic' sword than physical. but.. i guess there can be some ways to 'tweak' it no?

as before, many of the concepts are very rough sketches of forms and ideas and several are borrowed from various sources.

[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/mintgreentea/WSG/6_6.jpg]energy sword[/url]
this is actually taken from one of the many popular chinese martial arts novels. incorperating with qi-gong (for example, the pressure points thingy in crouching-tiger hidden-dragon) and the energy is strong enough to be a 'sword' persay. each finger reprsents a sword type.

[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/mintgreentea/WSG/5_5.jpg]energy sword 2[/url]
[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/mintgreentea/WSG/2_2.jpg]same more or less[/url]
more or less the same idea, but this is more like the psylocke's concept. i guess it can always in physical form if it were to be put in the game. or a fist with a 2+ range hit or something.

[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/mintgreentea/WSG/4_4.jpg]haha[/url]
this one is just myself having some fun. i guess if you want to be an artist, you have to master every.. humm.. sword right??

[url=http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/mintgreentea/WSG/1_1.jpg]monks[/url]
random monk concept. not very clear. but distinguishes from the attire and hats.

music sword: from the 'singer' vocabulary, from yet another chinese martial movie [url=http://www.sevenswordsthefilm.com/]7 swords[/url] where one of the characters pocesses a sword that the blade falls through the handle and can be held by the holes on the handle representing like a flute.
in another words, like playing music, different holes presses controls the sword movements.

.... i hope i am on the right track.
thx for reading

C&C as usual plz

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:55 pm

first of, some swords. i wasent quite sure about their specific style.. so i drew a bit of everything.
[url=http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swords4gl.jpg][img]http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2432/swords4gl.th.jpg[/img][/url]

secong, a meditating student.
[url=http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsinger9sf.jpg][img]http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/3151/swordsinger9sf.th.jpg[/img][/url]

ENIGMA* · Post by ENIGMA* » Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:26 pm

once again Lady N you show us your talent in mayt aspects of art....

*bows to the Lady's might*

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:24 pm

Here are some of my ideas. The following are unusually quick drawings for me, so forgive me if they look a bit rudimentary.

[url]http://www.maj.com/gallery/Vahiku/Concept/hammerfell_swordsinger1.jpg[/url]

On the left: an eldery warrior monk. I can imagine this man walking down the street, looking old and frail, a bit hunched. Only when he would be bothered by some rogues, for example, he would show that he, despite his old age, still possesses an unusual mastery of his art. An old, stoic master, so to speak.

On the right (hands): This is how I would image the sword singer could summon a sword. They gather a great amount of energy between their hands. They then "pull" the sword from their one first, with the other one, almost as if it were some kind of invisible scabbard.

[url]http://www.maj.com/gallery/Vahiku/Concept/hammerfell_swordsinger02.jpg[/url]

This one is more of an action pose, with a younger monk. And an idea for a shehai, though I think I still need to work on that sword.

Vholdrian · Post by **Vholdrian** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 6:42 pm

Adanorcil wrote:The following are unusually quick drawings for me

Those are quick drawings? Would you please show me some good drawings then? Because these drawings are way better then anything that would take me an hour to draw...

Adanorcil · Post by **Adanorcil** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:11 pm

Well, quick is relative for me. Half an hour is quick for me, if you get what I mean.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:40 pm

(Directed at everyone who's considered the swords) I think it would be easier for game play if the swordsingers swords were crafted from their thought and then were just swords that did not change or disappear. It would also be easier if the swords were not designed consciously, but instead were attuned with their inner mind or something. Basically, assuming these two things make the swords both easier to include as a swordswinger's weapon and easier to give the playert.

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:01 pm

Good idea Sload. The only problem I see with Spirit Swords as an item is that when the person who created the sword dies, the sword dies with them, or so I'm lead to believe from the lore I've read.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:40 pm

Well yeah, how could you pick up a summoned item ?

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:00 pm

You can pick it up without killing them... although I'm sure if they have such control over it they'd just disassemble it as soon as you took it.

xx_chromosome · Post by **xx_chromosome** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:17 pm

it can't be items but i guess we can improvise by adding more to the lore. for example, a bound spell that can cause the user to have the effect. a enchanted ring that each swordsinger is bestwoed(sp) before they join.

yes?

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:34 pm

It could well be like a bound spell, but I think thats too restrictive. I suggest we keep them as an item, but it would have to have several script effects attached, such as disappearance as of the owner's death (shouldnt be a huge problem with item ownership system), or disappearance say a day or so after being stolen, or perhaps they're unable to be picked up by anyone who doesn't have permission to it.

There were some physical swords imbued with the power of a Shihai made by Divad, so there's various types as well.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:20 am

It would be very simple to script. Each sword (which will have to be unique, though not necessarily in mesh) has a script which removes them from the owner's body on the owner's deat and which removes them from player's body and from any other character the owner will ever be near that might steal them.

Perhaps only the blade is spirit and the hilt is just an empty hilt. This would be good because when the sword is stolen from the owner, if they get it back it could be replaced with their sword again, because the player can have something to collect if they decide to kill swordsingers as a hobby, and because if the player has killed them and has such a handle on their person, other singers could react appropriately.

Also, I think some rules would be neat for the singers to identify them. Like they have to have shaven heads, or can't wear armor that isn't cloth or maybe leather.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:43 am

I am not sure how the scripting on the new engine will work, and how many bugs from Morrowind will carry over, but I am thinking that a CE summon sword spell would do the trick. Advantages would be that as soon as the NPC died, the spell would wear off, and the swords would vanish. Also, the swords would have no weight, which makes complete sense. I am unclear how pickpocketing works, but I'm pretty sure you can't pickpocket a summoned item from an NPC.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:52 am

By the way, I think a saber or a scimitar is the way to go for their swords, and all Yoku swords for that matter.

Vholdrian · Post by **Vholdrian** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:59 pm

[url=http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wsgxiphotoshopped1vj.jpg][img]http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/7032/wsgxiphotoshopped1vj.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Managed to draw something

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:28 pm

Hi!

IÃ‚Â´m back with some more ideas. My first idea was that the swords wouldnÃ‚Â´t be actual swords, but energy of some sort projecting from the swordsingers hands. They would be cast like a spell and exist for as long as the bearer wanted to.
concerning the costumes, I was going for a mix of samurai and tribal style. I also made them go bare-chested because it made sense to me that they wouldnÃ‚Â´t want to be encoumbered by anything.

[url=http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsingermale4nz.jpg][img]http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/6375/swordsingermale4nz.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsingerfemale3ob.jpg][img]http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/7398/swordsingerfemale3ob.th.jpg[/img][/url]

This last one is an apprentice not yet capable of the summoning.

[url=http://img396.imageshack.us/my.php?image=swordsingerapprentice9gm.jpg][img]http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/2589/swordsingerapprentice9gm.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Another idea I have concerning the swords, is that they could just possess any sword they get their hands on with the spirit.

So if the sword was taken away from them it would just be a normal sword, and the swordsinger could use any blade, maybe even a stick, as a spirit sword.

It could be a bit like the ankh symbol carried by death in the Sandman comic (if anyone is familiar with that). It is a powerfull artifact, but only while she carries it, so if someone takes it away from her she only has to get a new one at any nick-nack store.

Gamewise it would mean that the swordsinger would just get a huge bonus from using blade weapons.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:57 pm

Nice concepts Nyren.

Having a sword form as an extention of somebody's arm is a cool idea, but I think it's near impossible to implement in the game with an NPC. As far as I know, the system is based on the attacker having a weapon of predefined class in its inventory. (sword, sword-two-handed, axe, ect.) I don't believe there is a weapon slot for the arms. However, having a glowy, translucent spiritsword in somebody's hand will be entirely possible.

Here's a short passage I've been looking at a lot lately:

All sword singers learn through their intense training and devotion to the gods of war and way of the sword, the forms of discipline that allow the creation of the spirit sword. This is a simple form of magic or mind mastery where by a image of a sword is formed from pure thought. The sword singer forms the sword by concentrating, and it takes shape in his hand

I believe they'd definately be held in the hand.

As for imbuing the sword the spirit of an ancestor, or other diety, I think its possible. Its an area which has remained yet unexplored, unless there is some bethesda created lore i'm forgetting about. The reason for why its called a 'spirit sword' may be left up to our descretion.

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:08 pm

I love the style of the clothing and tatoos Nyren, I think it would fit a warrior monk type perfectly.

Your swords I'm semi-keen on. I'd personally prefer a sword with a hilt. For one it wouldnt require new animations, and putting the sword down wouldn't look as strange.

I do like the representation in the second picture though, I think it aptly captures the mist/light appearal of the partially formed Shehai, which looks misty and vague. Shehai's appearance obviously depends on the user, but the one described in The Memory Stone was very intricately detailed, and varied in brightness depending on the user's determination.

Concening your sword idea, they can indeed power material swords with the power of the Shehai, and they can "summon" them too, we could have a mix. As long as the power imbued on the sword died with the imbuer. Sload, I'm not sure about the hilt idea, I suppose that could be another variation on the concept

.

I personally think the name "spirit sword" in coined because it is intrinsically linked with a person's spirit/mind, when they are powerful, it is powerful, if they die the sword ceases to exist.

For in game stats, the swords dont break unless the mind does, so while it's item health wont be affected, perhaps it's attack power could be determined by the "will" attribute, and perhaps be less powerful when under the influence of sound or blind etc, spells that affect the mind.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:12 pm

Wow, Nyreen. You never cease to blow me away. Also, Hayden, that is some of your best work so far!

I'm finaly back from my weekend trip, so I will have my stuff up soon.

As for taking the swords; The way I see it, the sword is attatched to them. I read something about that they couldnt drop it unless they die. I imagine that if they did die the sword would disapear, because thier mind is no longer alive to fuel it.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:03 am

here are my first sketches. I drew out the basic clothing and brainstormed some different swords. The idea is great individuality between the monks (individuality is an important value to Redgaurds). The initaites of the order follow all the rules, they wear the full outfit, shave thier heads and dont have distinguishing features, they kind of look the same.

The two designs show the common travel outfit (not unlike dunedwellar clothing), and the minimal, practicle fighting garments.
[url=http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rough9bi.jpg][img]http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/466/rough9bi.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The first summoning of the spirit sword often occurs at a time of mortal peril to the user. Years of training are cast asside as the monk relies on instinct and the power of his spirit.
[url=http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firstsword9iy.jpg][img]http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3146/firstsword9iy.th.jpg[/img][/url]

There are 2 main styles of combat taught by the swordsingers; Body and Mind. Followers of either style respect the other. The monks of body use a primal stle; low to the ground and very non-restrictive. They use acrobatics and capeora-like movements.
[url=http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flippy2it.jpg][img]http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/1027/flippy2it.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The monks of mind pursue a more methodical and scholarly aporach. Thier movements are conservative and effecient, not showy or impressive, but deadly. This sword-singer is older (mind monks often live longer, while body deciples act sooner). He holds his spirit sword, an extension of his spirit. It is unique to him, perfectly balanced and suited to the particularities of his movement.
[url=http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=monk4hh.jpg][img]http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/731/monk4hh.th.jpg[/img][/url]

ENIGMA* · Post by ENIGMA* » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:04 am

OMG!!! well we have our Lore.....

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 11:37 am

Wow, I love your work Macar, I think the monks look just the way I pictured 'em.

Now doesn't the lore in the first post here say that the spirit sword is hardly ever used as a weapon and is usually very weak? I believe I read that only the Shehai is truly a weapon of power, and that before the monk is strong enough to create the Shehai he can only create worthless vague spirit swords. If I didn't miss-read, this discussion about the spirit sword is rather useless because the art is dying and probably no-one knows how to really create the sword strong enough to actually use it.

As for how it looks, I think the stronger the monk gets the clearer the sword gets and the more it materializes, I think that the Shehai is actually the only completely formed spirit sword which would mean that it is fully materialized.

I'm not sure if all this is correct but I think this is pretty much how it is (if I read that lore correctly).

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:18 pm

Oops, looks like you studied the lore better than me bard. I guess that my picture of the guy summoning his first sword is invalid then, because he wouldnt be able to stop an incomming blow.

Vholdrian · Post by **Vholdrian** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:25 pm

Macar wrote:Oops, looks like you studied the lore better than me bard. I guess that my picture of the guy summoning his first sword is invalid then, because he wouldnt be able to stop an incomming blow.

Who cares? They're wonderful drawings...

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:47 pm

Sload wrote: Perhaps only the blade is spirit and the hilt is just an empty hilt. This would be good because when the sword is stolen from the owner, if they get it back it could be replaced with their sword again, because the player can have something to collect if they decide to kill swordsingers as a hobby, and because if the player has killed them and has such a handle on their person, other singers could react appropriately.

Sort of like the Ordinators if you are wearing Indoril armour. Same type of script. And I agree with you, scimitars and Rapiers are definatly the way to go. I'll be submitting a few concepts tomorrow, sory for the wait.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 5:06 pm

Rapiers? Are you shure you mean rapier? Perhaps your thinking of a saber.

xx_chromosome · Post by **xx_chromosome** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:08 pm

(not sure if this has been mentioned).... is it possible to integrate something that changes the forms of a single sword?

intrepreting from what morden has quoted perhaps, if forgoing the 'energy form', maybe from the level of the swordsinger his/her sword will upgrade into different forms.
from a short sword, to saber, katana, double-edged (or whatever order).

donno, just thinking out-loud

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 6:14 pm

Macar wrote:Rapiers? Are you shure you mean rapier? Perhaps your thinking of a saber.

We'll definately be needing rapiers too, for the pirates.

As for this:

from a short sword, to saber, katana, double-edged (or whatever order).

I don't think katanas would make a lot of sense. And also, I think it would be most logical if the sword would just get less vague and would materialize more when the swordsinger gets stronger, though I don't know if that would be possible.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 7:43 pm

Macar wrote:Rapiers? Are you shure you mean rapier? Perhaps your thinking of a saber.

Unless I'm quite mistaken, wasn't Cyrus' sword from Redguard a rapier?

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:02 pm

No, it was definately a saber. Rapiers are always double edged and as you can see here, his is definately single edged with a slight curve. (bottom-left)
http://til.gamingsource.net/rgbooks/page.shtml?10