OB Scale vs Our Mod Scale

[Sload]

Silly Dexter, you should've read his unattributed, unreferenced, and as far as I have seen, inexistent quote:

They've said that they take what their size of the world would really be and scale it down to something they could realistically do in a game.

I'd really love to know where you got that, Eraser.

[Macar]

Honestly, the last 2 pages have not changed anyone's oppinion. I know this conversation must take place (we must decide what to do). But honestly people, let's keep it civil

[Nomadic1]

Alright, let's get what the arguments for and against are:

For Increased Scale:
PRO: Less cluttered world, which is important esp. along Iliac Coast
PRO: View distance problems solved to some extent
PRO: Alik'r Desert, the most important geographical feature in Hammerfell, can be made larger than a sandbox
CON: Not what Bethesda did
CON: Can't line up world space with Cyrodiil's worldspace
CON: More work

Against Increased Scale:
PRO: What Bethesda did
PRO: Can line up world space with Cyrodiil's worldspace
PRO: Less work overall
CON: More cluttered and crowded
CON: There aren't enough forests and what have you to hide the close proximity of cities, or even hide views of each other from each other without fudging
CON: Alik'r desert is too small, and hence laughable

As each Pro has an opposing Con on the other side, the arguments are simplified. And if I missed something, add it.

[Indoril]

Alright, let's get what the arguments for and against are:

For Increased Scale:
PRO: Less cluttered world, which is important esp. along Iliac Coast
PRO: View distance problems solved to some extent
PRO: Alik'r Desert, the most important geographical feature in Hammerfell, can be made larger than a sandbox
CON: Not what Bethesda did
CON: Can't line up world space with Cyrodiil's worldspace
CON: More work

Against Increased Scale:
PRO: What Bethesda did
PRO: Can line up world space with Cyrodiil's worldspace
PRO: Less work overall
CON: More cluttered and crowded
CON: There aren't enough forests and what have you to hide the close proximity of cities, or even hide views of each other from each other without fudging
CON: Alik'r desert is too small, and hence laughable

As each Pro has an opposing Con on the other side, the arguments are simplified. And if I missed something, add it.

Where there are such pros and cons, I have learned that it is best to argue for the middle road. We only would have to increase the scale by so much. We would only need to increase the scale by as much as needed to eliminate the view problems. You would then have room to expand the cities also. I don't mean build something like Narsis, but just expand the cities. So, expanding the scale wouldn't be bad, if only by so much. Only increase the scale by, say 20-50%, not double it or anything. This way, you aren't completely altering the map.

As for Geographical regions, this would still be a problem. So, follow this carefully, and if you don't like, ignore me. It may, after all, not be the best idear.
First, the map doesn't have to be considered solid. After all, we can fudge on the map in some areas. I mean, how can you have a geographically perfect map in a world set in ancient-medieval times? What I mean is that you can say that there are errors in lore, and that whoever drew up the "official imperial maps" (or whatever you'd call them) was wrong. Bare with me, this may not be the best idea. The upside to this solution is that, in moderation, we can slip from the precise map because it suits the spirit of the project. For example, if the desert needs to be bigger, change the map and make it bigger, and you wouldn't need to increase the scale to much. But like I said, in moderation. Fudge only enough to accomplish it. It only needs to be big enough to get lost in.

Sorry if I explained that poorly. Just bear in mind, the artist, the engineer, and the scientist all have to adjust their plans sometimes to fit the big picture. I don't see why we modders are much different.

[kingfish]

i have OB for only 20 or so hours, so i didn't explore it much, but already now it feels crowded and small...

so, the way i see it now, i'd like to see hammerfell bigger. lot of you say it'd mean more work, but that's imo a good thing - we are to have fun while making it, not finish it asap, remember?
i know, after what happened to us in tes3, you don't want to undergo such a load of work, but who says we have to do the whole of hammerfell? - why not [just for now] to make only a part of it?
bethsoft made it small: yeah, true, but the question is why.
was it because they think such small and crowded world is better? i don't think so. let's put aside the fact that it's faster and cheaper to make it small, i hope that's not the reason. imo one of the main reasons is the x-box-ising of the whole game - just take a look at whatever aspect of the game, it's somehow less complex and more straight-forward, less "hard-core" and the smaller size is just a part of it. it's made to be fun for young and impatient players too - a thing we don't have to worry about...

at the present scale, i don't see it possible to make major land features, villages and mainly all those quests/journeys where you are supposed to be lost/wonderind in a middle of nowhere/wilderness.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the middle road principle, even if I personally prefer Ob´s size.

If we allow ourselves to change the shape of the continent, we can make it bigger without having to change the scale so to speak. It would diverge from lore, but It would give us what we want (a big Alik´r desert).

In practice this means bloating parts of the map an keeping the borders with cyrodill the same shape. I suggest elongating the map, stretching it to twice the size in longtitude. And then scaling up the size of Alik´r in every direction until we cannot see the edge when standing in the middle. Problem solved.

It does of course raise the question of lore inconsitency, and involve more work, not to speak of the fact that the map will have to be changed radically. But this way we won´t have to redo Cyrodill, wich in my opinion would be a needless effort, and we have a size we all can be happy with.

I know a lot of you say that the mod doesn´t need to be finished, but working on something where it´s at least possible to reach some of the goals is a great deal more motivating than just plugging away at something that´s never meant to be finished.

[Gez]

How would you pass through? Unless the Redguards decided that they needed to wall in the Alik'r, its not possible.

No need for walls. Natural walls may exist.

[url=http://www.kolumbus.fi/zombie/hfnames.jpg]Official TR map of Hammerfall as far as I know[/url].

We see the Alik'r is already bordered by naturally impassable walls -- mountains. Steep dunes, canyons, cliffs could also be used to wall off the other areas.

And in some parts actual walls could be used too; after all the desert is full of nasty critters. The road west of Hegathe, the one north of Gilane, and the two passages east of Chasetown and Sunkeep can have travel gats garding them. Then only the part southeast of Sentinel needs to get some mountains added to finish walling off the vast Alik'r desert.

[fanfas]

i have OB for only 20 or so hours, so i didn't explore it much, but already now it feels crowded and small...

so, the way i see it now, i'd like to see hammerfell bigger. lot of you say it'd mean more work, but that's imo a good thing - we are to have fun while making it, not finish it asap, remember?
i know, after what happened to us in tes3, you don't want to undergo such a load of work, but who says we have to do the whole of hammerfell? - why not [just for now] to make only a part of it?
bethsoft made it small: yeah, true, but the question is why.
was it because they think such small and crowded world is better? i don't think so. let's put aside the fact that it's faster and cheaper to make it small, i hope that's not the reason. imo one of the main reasons is the x-box-ising of the whole game - just take a look at whatever aspect of the game, it's somehow less complex and more straight-forward, less "hard-core" and the smaller size is just a part of it. it's made to be fun for young and impatient players too - a thing we don't have to worry about...

at the present scale, i don't see it possible to make major land features, villages and mainly all those quests/journeys where you are supposed to be lost/wonderind in a middle of nowhere/wilderness.

My thoughs exactlly, like i said, also eraser has said some good points... and i don't understand why people are so much agains up the scale a bit... c'mom we are not talking about raising it like 10 times are we?... i say more like double the scale or scale x 2.5. This weekend i played OB for the first time outside the dungeon and it comfirmed what i was expecting... like some of you said it is crowded as hell...

In Morrowind province, people like you morden and dexter also stalker for that matter, are always complaining about people put more then on cave ruin or two in small claims... but that was what bethesda did... They have stucked things really near each other... Though map 1 for example looks a little undetailed in some aspects (note i haven't played it since the detail phase) it looks nice in a way that i could run around it just looking at the scenery... even if it was simple, in life we aren't always travelling aroud beautiful scenery aren't we?

Anyway to the people i mentioned, i don't mean to critesize you, i think that what you did is the way things should be.. so why change it to OB just because Beth did...

Another point you are mentioning is that we don't KNOW the reasons bethesda did things smaller and YES you are right, but that goes to everyone not only to people that are saying it, it's speculation so no one knows the truth and no one knows whats right or wrong...

I just would like to say this: Lets make "THIS" OUR WAY in the aspects we CAN do it in our way. This is OUR mod we are not employes of Bethesda, and though we dicided to stick to lore that doesn't mean we have to do all things Bethesda way not to break it(lore), we can do things OUR way without breaking it... like you are saying, in Hammerfell we have the grey zone.. so lets TAKE it and make it OURS.

[El Scumbago]

Plus: I completed the Akaviri Madstone quest that Bruma's countess gave me, and I noticed that the whole Pale Pass worldspace is an exteriorised interior. It makes sense that it had to be made like this since you can't go further north because of the mountains, but with a playable HF province this excuse stands no more. So, do spaces like this need to be 'exteriorised'?

[Stalker]

You see here we have a dilemma. Dilemma between TR-that-was and TR-which-can-be. People use an argument that bigger is not always better. It is true. But waht would you prefer to see ? A huge walled city with slums crawling with poor people surrounded by a grand lake or Vivec with walls, 15 shack-like houses surrounded by a moat ? What would you prefer to visit: a big trade city divided into multiple discticts with it's own big bazaar when you just get the feeling that you are one of many, you are not The One here or medium-sized village with 2 market stalls ? TR-that-was aimed at beleivability(sp). Not every cell must have a dungeon. It is simply stupid. Not every city must look like Caldera in size. Oblivion has killed the feeling that you are traveling vast wilderness visiting 7 major cities in the process and one capital city said to be the biggest city in whole Tamriel. It ruined the felling of the biggest province in Tamriel. It ruined the feeling of the world. When I play Oblivion I see it simply as a number of dungeons with wilderness only to slow me down when travelling between them and cities to sell loot. Because the next second I go into forest and try to enjoy it a marker pops-up on my compass showing that there's another cave\fort\village\Oblvion gate in "a cell near you". I don't want Hammerfell to turn into a number of dungeons and loot drop-offs. And TR-which-can-be is simply TESIV: Oblivion in different decorations. There is no reason for eye candy to be there if the candy is more bitter than pure coffein.

[Sload]

Gez, you don't understand. The only way that passing between worldspaces with scripts could work would be if the second worldspace fit perfectly into the main worldspace, and therefore needs to be on the same scale. This is also why a larger hammerfell is impossible without really lame gates you walk through on roads and making it impossible to go there offroad.

Kingfish: Why would you prefer making half a province to making two provinces?

EDIT: Ooh, Stalker posted while I was writing. You're lucky there are people who agree with you, because now you're just being bitter about what Oblivion is not.

[Stalker]

Okay... I'm just gonna quit this discussion. Not that I really care anymore what scale will it be.

[PoHa!]

*PoHa! dislikes the circled arguments and character attacks he's seen so far in this thread, so intends to give his opinion and his counter-arguments, and be out*

Oblivion scale. For reasons that have already been mentioned.

Counter-arguments:

Scaling and View Distance:
This makes absolutely no sense to me. "We can see too far, so lets make the land bigger." In OB, the draw distance is huge, and the only thing that really cuts it off is the natural features of the terrain. So, lets make it bigger, and see even farther than we already can? I can't see the logic in this. We have to rely on the land to break up the huge view distances, either way we do it.

OB scale and Bethesda's vision
As has already been stated, we don't know what Beth's vision is entirely. We can't say that, if things were just a little different, they would have kept the scale of MW, or of one of their earlier games, or what have you. Use of this argument, by either side, gets no one anywhere. Would they have built it bigger? Would they have made it Morrowind in Cyrodiil? Unless your name is Pete Hines, Tom Howard, Mr. Smiley Face Dude, etc. I don't think you can say what is/was Bethesda's vision for OB. If they could have made it bigger, they might have. But if they could have made it smaller, they might have done that too.

The only one around who MAY be able to shed some insight into this is AFFA. So please don't pretend to know what Beth would or would not have done.

Scale and Cities being too close together
I don't see a problem here. According to the PGE map, the closest two major cities are (or appear to be) Gilane and Hegathe. Those between the major cities are only minor ones, and thus should not even have their own worldspace (being much smaller). There are places like this in Cyrodiil, and it works fine. I feel that people are letting their vision for these smaller towns to override what they should be; which is to say, pretty small.

Scale and the Alik'r
This argument carries a lot more weight than the others do, I believe. The PGE constantly refers to Hammerfell as being desert like, barren, a wasteland, or similar. Quite frankly, I think we just need to change the size of the desert to encompass more of the province (in our map), and have variations upon the desert (ie rocky desert, cliff desert, Oasis desert, dune desert, etc), though, I admit, other than the PGE, I have no other source for lore on this. However, I've seen no reference to anything else by anyone, really.

Scale and Stros M'Kai
Another tough one. Stros M'Kai, as depicted in the Redguard game, was pretty large. At least the size of Solstheim. It has, (from what I saw in the demo version of the game) at least one large town, a palace, mountains, dwemer ruins, and wilderness. However, that was using a different scale. In current maps, they've even made Stros M'Kai larger, which shows that they realized that NO ONE could fit all of that onto that island in OB scale. It simply won't work. We COULD place the palace, the "mountains" (which are mentioned in OB, btw), the ruins, and the town in one cell each, and then perhaps fit them all, but, quite frankly, everyone knows just how badly that would suck.

What does that leave us with then? I can't see us completely forgetting what was there in Redguard, but I certainly don't see the point in changing the scale JUST for this island, either. That leaves us with something that has to be solved. Even doubling the scale won't allow us enough room for what has been mentioned. So either way, this will have to be discussed later, and using it as a reason for making the scale larger holds only so much weight (that being that changing the scale will put less stress on the creation of that island).

Scale and OB not feeling large enough
For me, it feels just fine as far as being large goes. The difference lies in there being many many many dungeons in Oblivion. However, I think that the compass throws the perceived number of dungeons off. You can easily walk into the wilderness, look in all directions, and notice that your compass is pointing out 4 things (or even more) at times. That doesn't mean its all in the same cell, or even in one cell over. As for me, I prefer the vast openness that Cyrodiil holds, and rarely notice the compass if I'm just wandering around. I may feel up for a little dungeon crawling, at which point, I can easily look at my compass, and find the nearest excusion.

That isn't to say, however, that there are the right amount of dungeons. I think that the amount of dungeons in Cyrodiil may very well be argued against (though I myself wouldn't argue against it; I wouldn't argue for it either, I think). That said, the world still seems large to me. Perhaps not the incredibly vast (and, comparatively empty) wilderness that Morrowind presented us with, but I don't find the size inadequate.

*PoHa! is finally done typing, and thus withdraws from the so-called discussion, weary, sleepy, and needing to go to class*

[Dexter]

We seem to keep going over one of Sload's main arguments.
According to him, fast travel is based upon a point's distance from 0,0, which I believe is the Imperial City. If we made Hammerfell on a different scale, it would then be impossible to travel from a point in Cyrodiil to a point in Hammerfell. There would have to be halfway points between the two worldspaces (because we would HAVE to make them separate worldspace), which could either be a really tacky and immersibility-killing experience, or a not-so-bad-and-good-compromise type thing.

[Macar]

I agree with poha that the size o the Desert should be changed. I think that the desert should encompass all the blank area in the eastern side of this map :http://img507.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hf14hx.jpg and the towns within should be moved slightly so they are on the outskirts of the desert- closer too the mountians. I think that works especialy well with our concept of towns on the mountain-side.

[Stalker]

Guys...umm...my last post here, promise. But please listen to it.
Stirk is a test, right ? Why don't you do Stirk in real Ob scale (I mean EXACTLY in Ob scale) and see how it feels ? And then we'll talk about how crappy Sload's PC is so he can't see mainland from there, OK ?

[Xui'al]

We need to compromise
Got your attention, didn't it? We need to find a midpoint between functionality and lore. In lore, it takes nearly a week to walk from the Morrowind border to the Imperial City. Now lets say that the people walking are carrying packs and aren't sticking to the roads. Lets say they are hardy and walk ten hours a day, at 5 kilometers/hour.

5 x 10 = 50km

We know that is unrealistic for a common traveler. They will have to rest. So lets say that they make 45km in a day. Being an avid hiker, this is very realisitic. I always have my GPS with me, so that I have an idea how fast I go.

45 x 6 = 270

So that puts 270 kilometers between the Morrowind border and the Imperial City. Still is a little small of a continent, but

that is unnattainable.

We need to find a scale that can suit both lore and technicality. The dungeon issue is a problem to, because of the density. In Morrowind, our work was comparable to that of Bethesda's, and traveling to the mainland didn't feel all that different. If we don't put a dungeon every five feet it will be, and that is just stupid. There is no way that dungeons occur in those densities.

And finally,
Sirwoot: I like your ideas about using Pixel Shader effects to make the Alik'r feel larger. But wouldn't it just be easier to modify the view distances in the Oblivion_config file and place it in an installer, so 99% of the gamers will be none-the-wiser?

[Morden]

In Morrowind, our work was comparable to that of Bethesda's, and traveling to the mainland didn't feel all that different. If we don't put a dungeon every five feet it will be, and that is just stupid. There is no way that dungeons occur in those densities.

I agree that a compromise might be the case, but our work on the morrowind mainland, especially concerning dungeons, can't be compared to Bethesda quality. There is actually and incredible absence of dungeons throughout our mod. Our landmass was too big and as a result our gameplay points of interest are few and far between. Massey even had to go through Map 1, dropping in cave entrances just to add some playability.. it helped, but our wilderness is still very empty compared to Vvardenfel. Even if we stayed at Oblivion scale, there is no garuntee that we'll reach that density of dungeons, and I fear that if we increase the scale too much, we'll once again create that empty gameplay experience that is our Morrowind landmass.


I also feel that our decision on the issue, including a compromise, is dependant on whether we create a new worldspace or not.

[Xui'al]

Empty is realistic. Big, empty forests and great rolling farmlands are realistic. It is also fun. (at least for us RPing lore people)

[Eraser]

First of all, I get that from all of the books and every source of lore that describe the world. and the scaled down statement...its in the dev quotes section at waiting for oblivion. Don't be so quick to assume I'm making shit up. So please, lets all just lose the attitude.

-Lore paints the picture of a much larger world. Look at all the official maps on TIL, read some of the books, all indicate that tamriel is a continent, not an island thats at best the size of grand cayman or bermuda.

- The geological features of not only hammerfell, but of all of tamriel do not fit together in such a space. Climates and terrains do not vary so greatly within a few miles.

- Different kingdoms, often at war with each other, inside seperate provinces, often at war with each other as well, simply cannot all exist

-The world size that OB shipped with is what they had to work with. The game had to fit entirely on a single, standard DVD to work with the xbox 360. Had such a space requirement(and the sheer quantity of voice acting taking up half of it) not been present, they could have easily made the world bigger.

- They were limited by production costs and hardware limitations. None of those we have to worry about.

-On cyrodiil. No matter what, we have to make Hammerfell in a seperate worldspace. It eliminates tons of problems, the biggest, compatability.

- If we make a larger scale, we will NOT remake cyrodiil to that scale. I think only 1 person might disagree about that. With its own worldspace, we do not have to worry about aligning the landscape like we did in the morrowind engine. The proportions and shape can stay the same regardless of size.

Xui-Empty tends to be boring for most, but cluttered is just as bad. At least to the north and west, we have excellent references for dungeons.

Nomadic just did what I was planning to do to help simplify things.

Increasing scale.
Pros:
-closer adherence to lore as definited by books and maps
-less cluttered world. How can a ruin be lost or forgotten when its in sight of the road to town?
-No cutting corners. We don't have to pick and choose which cities we include. same goes for all kinds of content, we'll have more creative freedom to make variety and everything the best it can be.
-geological features can be more impressive.
-TESCS tools facilitate a larger scale without exponentially increased work. It is more, but nothing we can't handle.
Cons:
-more work and effort
-generated wilderness may need more personal attention
-Inconsistent with cyrodiil's size

keeping OB scale.
Pros:
-Less overall work-> more of tamriel built
-consistency with Cyrodiil's size
-more hand sculpted detail
Cons:
-which cities use need to be prioritized
-prominant geological features will need to be reduced.
-barren landscape will make land feel tiny
-cluttered features



I'm tired and need to get to class, I'll probably add to these later.

[Stalker]

Umm...hello ? I didn't know phpBB has "Ignore user" function.

[Xui'al]

Umm...hello ? I didn't know phpBB has "Ignore user" function.

I'm against Stirk, and therefore will not comment. I will be for Stirk if and when an expansion is announced and it *isn't* set there.

[Macar]

I prefer Nomadic's list as it is unbiased. Sorry Eraser, but your summary is very wieghted toward your prefference.

[PoHa!]

Stirk is small. Its smaller than the ideas that have been already generated for it, IMO (ie the lore that was created for it because no lore existed). Therefor, I very much doubt they release it as an expansion. I also think that Stirk is a good example of what may (or may not) be happening: that some of our ideas for how some things should appear is altering our perceptions upon what we have in OB.

What does that mean? Simply put, we're either basing our scale of things on an older game, or we're basing it on the newest one.

IMO, this should go under the "Bethesda is constantly changing lore, so we go with the latest lore, where available" clause I think I've read somewhere.

[Orix]

I'm seeing your point of view, it is seeming more of a considerable idea to have a larger Hammerfell as a seperate world space, although before we decide, I think we should make a base land (with relief and city markers) to test these claims of size issue out first. Pictures just dont do it justice.

If we use a seperate worldspace, would it be possible to travel from one province to the other without having to go through some checkpoint (without fast travel)? If not, then I suggest that we extend the road that leads past Chorrol, through Colovian Highlands, into Hammerfell and have some kind of large Census & Tax Office or Offical Entry Port (as suggested by that person in that other thread ) that allows you to enter/exit Hammerfell, via fast travel, on horse/foot and boat from Anvil to port cities (similar to Morrowind).

That way, it would feel like you are entering Hammerfell from Cyrodil, although a bit noticeable non the less. This would allow us to keep the invisible walls around Cyrodil, and we'd have to put some around Hammerfell's worldspace too, but the transition is possible, and allows up to use whatever scale we like... despite the change in scale possibly being somewhat initially disorientating to players.

Considering Stirk, perhaps another seperate worldspace? We could have a lump of land in the distance from Anvil, and talking to a boat owner there, for passage to the island, would take you to the seperate worldspace. Giving us the freedom we want. We could do the same with Stros M'kai if our Hammerfell still isnt big enough.

[Macar]

I agree with whoever-said-it that we should build stirk in oblivion scale, as a test. If we dont like that scale, it's changeable- because it's small enough.

[Haplo]

That'd be Stalker.

[Silverwood]

Or you can always go for a happy medium? I mean, I'm not one for conterversy, but can't you do it a bit larger than ob scale, but not so huge it requirers extra years of work?

I say go for Stirk. Who cares if Bethseda releases an expansiont hat could possibly be Stirk or some other place near it, at least it's a test, and we can get used to OB modding.

[sirwootalot123]

First of all, let me say that I agree with these middle-ground people 100%, stalker especially. I've already made a region map which bloats the desert as highly as feasible within the province, and it's STILL too small to feel good from the standpoint of a true Elder Scrolls fan. Many vital community members have left their posts in anger from how mainstreamed Oblivion is, most notably SInder Velvin from TIL. DOn't get me wrong, I love the GAME, but the way they handled lore and the world was beyond disappointing. I made a plugin for myself that disables the bullshit fast travel system altogether and makes the distance for finding icons much smaller, it helps alot.

Stirk is a test, right ? Why don't you do Stirk in real Ob scale (I mean EXACTLY in Ob scale) and see how it feels ? And then we'll talk about how crappy Sload's PC is so he can't see mainland from there, OK ?

I've already done it, and here are the results.
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y28/Sirwootalot/Random%20TR/TR%20Oblivion/

Speaks for itself... I think no words can match the power of these images as an argument against oblivion's irrational cost-and-diskspace based scale.

EDIT: Here's the plugin, so you can all observe it for yourself. The refrences and textures in stirk were all randomly generated, so it looks fairly rough.

[Macar]

Hmm. I find this to be compelling... Some of your shots, though, I couldnt tell what I was looking at. The ones with text, though were enlightening.

[kapuhy]

I've already done it, and here are the results.

Wait... you mean this scrap of land in front of your air travelling knight is actually Stirk?

It looks like it can contain no more than one medium city... if you forget about adding any wilderness around.

EDIT: Actually, it looks like it can contain something the size of Imperial Prison you start the game in:/

EDIT2: I can't open the esp for myself, I don't have Oblivion.

[sirwootalot123]

open up the ESP for yourself. I made it exactly to scale and location based on the pocket guide map, it's about 5x5 cells.

[PoHa!]

PoHa! wishes to reiterate that Stirk has no lore. We made up EVERYTHING that we had planned to place on it. So, is it a scrap of land too small to place what we had envisioned? Possibly so. That is our own fault for not checking its size before we started with ideas about a resort, fort, mine, undead, lighthouse, greenhouse, redhouse, teahouse, or whatever was decided to place on it. This means that if we're disappointed that its not big enough, its because our ideas were too big, not that the land is actually too small. Just a friendly reminder.

Also: SirWoot, I've downloaded your .esp. What did you compare it to to get the size of 5x5? (Not attempting to be pessimistic, offensive, or what-ever-have-you, I'm just trying to find out what you used for comparison) My own comparisons and measurements lead me to believe it was smaller than you have it, and I was curious.

[sirwootalot123]

The diameter of the Imperial City's main walls is EXACTLY 5 cells. I compared the size of the drawn island to the imperial isle on the same map, then looked at the game's paper map to see how wide the Imperial City's walls were. the two were about the exact same size, perhaps with stirk being a smidgen smaller.
And I'm dissapointed to hear what you're saying - basically that we should irrationalize and emaciate our ideas to accomodate an irrational and emaciated scale, rather than rationalize that scale to make something truly beautiful.

[Morden]

If I PoHa's words correctly, he's saying quite the opposite. That we should make our plans according to scale, using our own inginuity to create a beautiful game world. That the reason it seems so small is because we've had our expectations so high to begin with in planning Stirk. That if we had kept Oblivion's scale in mind from the start, our planning would have been different, and there would be no need for a larger island. We're not destroying our ideas or limiting ourselves, but simply planning and building within our means.

[sirwootalot123]

Seriously, the only way we can adapt our ideas to this scale is by making either the lore or the ideas themselves crap, especially when it comes to the Na'Totambu lands around Sentinel - and unless we betray the deepest core of our mission statement, that isn't about to happen.

[Lud]

I'm not going to weigh in with my full thoughts on this yet, but I would like to note a purely mathematical point:
Changing scale to 2x current level=> 4x area increase
Changing scale to ~1.42x current level=> 2x area increase

Many of you don't seem to realise this. A small increase in scale ratio has a large effect on area size.
Right, carry on flaming each other

[Sload]

We seem to keep going over one of Sload's main arguments.
According to him, fast travel is based upon a point's distance from 0,0, which I believe is the Imperial City. If we made Hammerfell on a different scale, it would then be impossible to travel from a point in Cyrodiil to a point in Hammerfell. There would have to be halfway points between the two worldspaces (because we would HAVE to make them separate worldspace), which could either be a really tacky and immersibility-killing experience, or a not-so-bad-and-good-compromise type thing.

You misunderstood. First, 0,0 is a little southwest of the imperal city, right north of the White Rose River thing, I think. Second, it isn't fast travel, its travel in general. There might be a scripty way to travel through worldspaces, atleast I think it will work. It can only work if they are the same scale, because basically it finds your position in one worldspace, moves you to another worldspace, and puts you in the same place. This makes a larger scale Alik'r impossible, unless you can only enter from a certain point, which definitely shouldn't happen. While province travel is possible, it will be lame because you can only enter through, say, the roads.

This is another reason a larger scale seems really lame. If you go 100 yards on one side of the line, move 5 feet to the left, and then go 100 yards back, you'll either be twice as far or half as far as you were before. That is far more "immersion breaking" than being at Oblivion's scale.

Further, Stirk won't prove anything, because the people who think the scale is too small will decide that its too small and the people who think its fine will decide that its fine. What's going to happen is someone (probably the admins) will decide which side is right and things will progress from there.

The problem with a middle road is that the middle road will mean the technical difficulties people who are fine with Oblivion's scale don't want, and not enough of a size increase for the people who want Oblivion's scale larger. Mediation works great when each side wants something to happen, but here each side wants something else to not happen.

[Macar]

I agree that putting The desert in annother dimention wont work.

As for Sirwoot's pictures. I wasnt as distressed by the size of stirk (it's a little island anyway) as I was by the hammerfell pitures. It looks to me like you would be able to see all the southern cities at once, which would be kind of lame.

As I said from the beging I am open to either side, though. And it's true that, in the end, this isue will probably be decided by TEHP0W3rzTH@TB, because this debate is going nowhere.

[Eraser]

I like how sirwoot said that one bit. I can't stand for accomodating our ideas to an irrational and emaciated scale. That's how console developers operate, they take what they have to work with and make their game fit the limitations of the system. The end product turns out to be a mess, if we stick with such a small scale, hammerfell will turn out to be crap.

I want to see hammerfell made all it can be. We have the ability to do this province right. Just because they made Cyrodiil tiny doesn't mean we have to be stuck with the same limitations.