OB Scale vs Our Mod Scale

[kapuhy]

I think we should take one more thing into account:

We don't know OB editor and the process of modding too well at this time. Eraser said that we have the ability to make Hammerfell much larger that Bethesda made Cyrodiil. I wouldn't be so sure...

I feel that there may be more reasons why Cyrodiil is so small, and if we agree to create a big lanmass before we are aware of possible problems (New, more active NPCs,possible engine limitations,etc.), we'll wake up one day with our hands in the closet.

I think that it's a really good idea to make Stirk right now in OB scale and learn a bit about new CS in the process, then decide if we are able to scale up the whole province.

[Haplo]

All I know is that when standing on Stirk in Oblivion's scale (ie Sirwoot's mod), you can see the Velothi's quite well if you look in the right direction (basically East east north)

[Xui'al]

You sure Haplo? The Jerall Mountains are east-north, and from this side the Velothi Mountains are called the Valus Mountains. Velothi = Veloth = Morrowind border.

[Haplo]

My mistake, it's either the Velothi Mtn's or the Elsweyr Mtn's, or so I'm told by wooty. Normally I wouldn't accept that, but what he says seems to be generally more true and more thought-out than it usually is.

[Eraser]

Very true, we're all new to the CS. I have explored a few things with the worldspaces.

It looks like there's a size limitation, which the default landscape fills. This would argue against a bigger scale. The solution would be to use multiple worldspaces. I've got to check on just how exactly they link things up.

Alright, so where is this discussion going?

Sirwoot is concerned about view distance.

Morden says he's concerned about technical issues.

I'm not quite sure what sload is concerned about besides not making the world big.

I'm concerned about gameplay and content. I don't want to cut corners or features because we can't fit them all, nor do I want a crammed wilderness, because otherwise it won't be wilderness. If its not epic huge thats fine, it simply needs to be bigger so that its not watered down.

[PoHa!]

Thank you, SirWoot for the information. Regarding your scale and comparisons.

And yes, Morden seems to catch my meaning. Those who wish to go back to a different scale seem to also be wishing for the things they miss from Morrowind. If we were just starting Morrowind, I'd bet we'd be having the same discussion about scale and the previous games, which were also on a different scale(s).

Point being? Lore changes. In every game, lore has changed in some way or another. Saying that the recent game is against lore is very strange to me, as I thought that, well, it WAS lore. Case in point: [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/fsg/brendanarticle1.shtml]Argonians.[/url] In every game, they've appeared differently. What we have now, however, is more appropriate with what we had in Daggerfall or Arena, than we had in Morrowind. Yet I remember quite a few naysayers (on ESF) in regards to what the Argonians looked like... calling it, among other things, against lore. Obviously, there can be reasons for such things, among them being different species of Argonians.

What I believe we should do is learn to adapt to what we have available, not revert back to what we know. Will it take creativity and ingenuity? Of course. That's a driving force behind this project, and I can't see shying away from those things as a plausible solution.


Side note:

The game had to fit entirely on a single, standard DVD to work with the xbox 360

oblivion's irrational cost-and-diskspace based scale.

As far as XBox 360 goes:

Q. What is the DVD format?

A. Xbox 360 supports 12X dual-layer DVD-ROMs, playing progressive-scan DVD movies right out of the box.

The Oblivion game is about 4GB. Dual Layer DVD-ROMs have a capacity of about 9 GB. So they weren't confined at all. Just for clarification.

[Annon]

i think time is why beth didn't make it larger

[Haplo]

Time? Time better not be why it sucks so much. They had all the time in the world! They even had to delay it! They gave themselves too little time. It's not like they're loosing anything by releasing it later.

[Majra]

yes well you try and tell that to microsoft. They have scary big clubs of money... and by money I mean lack of venture capitalist funding.

Reason number 147 of why I hate microsoft

[Eraser]

Remember that saying about jumping off a bridge?

Just because bethesda did something doesn't mean it was a good decision, it doesn't mean we have to follow with what they did. especially if we're capable of better judgement. Show me a TES book that says tamriel is a floating postage stamp instead of a continent.

[Nomadic1]

It seems that a lot of people are arguing over an increase of x2 by dimensions (making Hammerfell 4 times bigger). So can I throw another dimensional sclaing increase out there, proposed by Ludovic before: what would a 1.42x dimensional increase be like for you (effectively creating Hammerefll 2 times bigger).

[Eraser]

any increase would help, but I think a 5x oblivion scale would solve the size issues without going overboard.

[kapuhy]

5x oblivion scale would solve the size issues without going overboard.

You mean making the area 25 times bigger?

[Theo]

Now I have observed this discussion for a while and suggest this solution. Lets do this, someone (with photoshop skills, which exludes me) should put a cell grid on hammerfell map and mark the cells which will be occupied with cities and post the picture here.
We need to have precise idea how hammerfell would look like.
Then we can discuss whether it is too big, too small and when there is consensus we can see how close it is to real Oblivion scale and discuss how to fit it.
This discussion is about abstract principles but gives little insight into how should hamerfell look in final and how it should be built.

[kapuhy]

I fully support Theo on this one. I would do this myself if I had the game...

[sirwootalot123]

The Oblivion game is about 4GB. Dual Layer DVD-ROMs have a capacity of about 9 GB. So they weren't confined at all. Just for clarification. Smile

And all the dialogue is 5 GB. Actually, if you noticed, they ditched a WHOLE bunch of voice actors to make it all fit, because it's really 7.73 GB - all elves have the same voice, orcs and nords (female orcs sound weird as hell now), all beast races have the same voice...

Now I have observed this discussion for a while and suggest this solution. Lets do this, someone (with photoshop skills, which exludes me) should put a cell grid on hammerfell map and mark the cells which will be occupied with cities and post the picture here.
We need to have precise idea how hammerfell would look like.
Then we can discuss whether it is too big, too small and when there is consensus we can see how close it is to real Oblivion scale and discuss how to fit it.
This discussion is about abstract principles but gives little insight into how should hamerfell look in final and how it should be built.

Will do, man. I can't rest easy if we adopt such a lame scale, and i'll go to any lengths (without making up anything) to prove its lameness.
Oh, and I think not being able to fast travel between the two provinces is a GOOD thing. Province borders are highly regulated, and legally, one can only enter through a Pass. I believe we need to make a few in Cyrodiil (Bethesda TOTALLY neglected them, for not wanting to make meshes for other provinces), and use them as entrances to the Hammerfell worldspace.

Also, guys, ive spent days tinkering around in the CS, and I'm damn sure I know what I'm talking about by now.
Eraser, sorry to say that unless we break hammerfell into more than one worldspace, 5x wont work... the worldspaces, as ginormous as they are, have a limit of 580x580 cells (which is still OMGWTFHUGE). Doing Hammerfell and High rock (putting them together makes the dimensions of the map fit the worldspace dimensions near perfectly) in 2x would make it about 440 by 420, and that's not counting alot of the distant land that needs to be made. I've been arguing 2x all this time because it's a sweet spot - just big enough to not feel stupid, just big enough to rationally fit in a single worldspace...

Here's the bottom line of my argument, because i'm sick of restating all this stuff from two pages ago.
Oblivion was not Bethesda's vision, in all likelihood; but its financial limitation due to Microsoft refusing to use newer disc technology.
We should make TR what Bethesda couldn't make Oblivion - the most believable and immersive Lore-stuffed Elder Scrolls game ever.

[Dexter]

I'm locking this thread, in favor of the voting thread.
Remember when voting, do NOT skirt over the technical issues. If the vote for a bigger scale wins, and we run into a technical problem because of this scale, we are all going to look really stupid.