Approved guilds

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:21 am

Bounty hunter guild...Morag Tong/Dark Brotherhood anyone?

I have suggested mercenary factions for Hammerfell on the Hammerfell lore post, but I dont think we will ever have a 'mercenary guild'. For one point, the name mercenary is quite negative, and they would not call it that.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:54 am

edog99 wrote:Dear Nomadic1

It's true that the fighters gulid is kind of mercenary guild, But also the mages and thives guilds are...
All three guilds similar to mercenary guild, but each guild have their on masters, interests and political view, while i mean to pure mercenary\bounty huntres guild without - masters, interest and political view...

Uhhh... It's a bit hard to not get involved in politics as a guild. Especially when the faction would be stepping onto the turf of other established guilds with Imperial and local sanction.

edog99 · Post by **edog99** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:49 pm

Ok

you right
I give up
You convinced me that there is no need in mercenary\bounty hunters guild in TR...
Are you happy now?

edog99 · Post by **edog99** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:06 pm

necromancer guild

It is a very good idea, there where few qusts about necromancer at morrowind...
necromancer guild must be exist on TR (and even joniable)

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:14 pm

I suppose that now the Mages Guild has been somewhat split by the leader after banning necromancy, all those that left would have to go somewhere...

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:39 pm

'Guilds' in the Elder Scrolls implies an Imperial Charter, and no necromancers would get that. The thieves guild is an exception, since their craft is illegal, if pretty innocuous. Having a 'Necromancer guild' would be like having a Rapist's Guild as far as some people are concerned.

What you would get is necromancers practicing in secret, probably alone but maybe in sects.

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:46 pm

So, perhaps a joinable faction then?

I've noticed some dungeon spawn are collections of Necromancers. If you're part of the faction they could hold less agression toward you, depending on your sect...

Remember, they did have the Vampire guilds in Morrowind, who were just as evil. Not to mention the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion too. I doubt the people of Tamriel like either of those guilds, but they exist!

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:16 pm

Yeh taking a page out of the Vampiric quests would be a good idea. Thats the sort of organisation we really want to base this on.

Not sure really how we would set up three factions though. Perhaps there could be three factions which believe they draw power from different sources:

-A faction which believes necromancy is pure magick from Aetherius with no connection to other spirits
-A faction which believes necromancy is a power drawn via Daedric sources
-A faction which believes necromancy is a power drawn via Aedric sources

Now, you may wonder about the Aedric one. Well Arkay is the God of the life/death cycle. The priests of Arkay are totally against necromancy and the undead, and the first law of Arkay is that no body can be resurrected without prior permission. However he is also a god of perfect balance...joy and sorrow, blight and health. This implies there must also be followers who are FOR necromancy when it follows the first law. Would make for a pretty interesting faction, getting people to sign up to turn into zombies!

The Daedric one would be your out and out bloody cult really. Im not sure which daedra would apply most...
Clavicus Vile has dealings with necromancy: the Masque of Clavivus Vile was in the posession of that nord necromancer in Dagon Fel, and he has had dealings with N'Gasta.

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:39 pm

I'd say three "necromancer's guilds" would be a bit much, like Orix said it would be people that split from the Mages Guild. If there would have to be a three faction system it would probably include the Mages Guild and another faction which would for example take their power from divine energy or something. All in all I think it wouldn't make sense to create three of 'em.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:54 pm

Well we are only talking on the scale of the Morrowind Vampire system...one base, a couple of outposts. Its more like 3 flavours of the same faction.

And its still not a guild

We do really need necromancers for Hammerfell anyway, as there is a place up in the Dragontail Mountains called Scourg Barrow which is the home of Necromancy proper: probably the pure magic type. They follow the Worm King, who lives there. Perhaps two factions would be a better idea: Those who follow the Worm King and those who follow the Underking, the banished soul of Zurin Arcturius, the Battlemage.

edog99 · Post by **edog99** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:12 pm

It is obvious that Necromancers shell be an underground guild hostile to the Mages guild (as orix mentiond), like the Camona Tong and the Thieves Guild...

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:21 pm

edog99 wrote:It is obvious that Necromancers shell be an underground guild hostile to the Mages guild (as orix mentiond), like the Camona Tong and the Thieves Guild...

Yes...yes it is...

I think having the Worm King and the Underking as opposing factions would be good, since thats how it was done in the original Daggerfall. The only problem is that the lore on the Underking is quite annoying: theres no solid info on whether he is actually Zurin Arcturus or if he is this old Nordic King, and if you are going to be getting close to him one could assume we would learn these things. Unless it was really mysterious...

Also we would ahve to make the assumption that the player didnt give either character the totem at the end of Daggerfall, since both end up leaving Tamriel if they got it. We might have to pick which ending happened anyway as it affects other lore. This has probably actually already been done

. The most logical one to choose would be the blades, as that keeps most of the whole political thing the same, with no one faction gaining total power, its just everyone is under the Empire's thumb.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:55 pm

I heard it was confirmed in Oblivion that he was Zurin Arctus, but also believe that he was put to sleep at the end of one of the Daggerfall storylines, and all of them happened because of the Warp of the West.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:36 pm

Sload wrote:I heard it was confirmed in Oblivion that he was Zurin Arctus, but also believe that he was put to sleep at the end of one of the Daggerfall storylines, and all of them happened because of the Warp of the West.

The problem is that all of them can't have happened in the same reality, since they sorta cancel each other out: You cant have Daggerfall, Wayrest and Sentinel all in solo control of the Iliac Bay while also being defeated by the Empire, its just not possible. Lets not delve into alternate realities! From the oblivion book 'the Warp in the West' we could deduce that the events settled in a stalemate and thus a peace in the bay region, with each power gaining essentially what they wanted: an end of war, more power, and recognition in the case of the orcs. The other storylines also kill off some good characters: The Worm King ends up flying Numidium to Aetherium, and The Underking uses it to finally achieve death. If we were to assume that all this did happen then the necromancers would probably be following the teachings of these two lichs rather than being actively lead by them. They both had pretty devout followers who would have definitely continued in their wake.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 10:57 pm

Zurin Arctus is dead. Unless any new lore by Bethesda expands on it, we shouldn't conjecture against it.

The King of Worms is killed in the Mages' Guild questline in Oblivion. I found that out in the TES Lore forum.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:38 pm

Yup if all of the possible endings happened then he is dead, but he did have a devout following who will have carried on their merry way resurrecting dead people.

Ive just gone and read up on the Worm King with reference to Oblivion

(spoilers)
Apparently he did ascend to godhood and sought to overthrow Arkay as the god of life and death. However, he failed and was cast back to earth. He ended up a mortal man and is killed in the mages guild quest
(end spoilers)

Thus we can have his following in Hammerfell alive and well. One would expect they would be pleased at his return, and then annoyed at his death. They must have certain anonimity from him, if he felt that he could leave them in the stronghold as he settled a vendetta in Cyrodil.

We should also bear in mind that this is a faction which deals with death magic...who knows, we may speak to both the Underking and Mannimarco (the worm king)!

EDIT: heres a book about the origins of Mannimarco - http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/mannimarco.shtml

He trained as a Psjiic with Galerion, founder of the mages guild. They split off and had a big battle in the end.

We learn a lot about necromancy in Oblivion so it would be ridiculous for us to not have at least one playable necromancer faction

http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/souls_black_white.shtml

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:27 am

...for fuck's sake Nomadic1

.

I would actually like to find out some of the stuff contained within that game for myself! I avoid ESF - Oblivion General, and the Oblivion Discussion on this very forum to stop things like this being spoilt for me.

Why don't we all try to keep the spoliers contained within those thread, hmmm?

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:39 am

Orix wrote:...for fuck's sake Nomadic1 .

I would actually like to find out some of the stuff contained within that game for myself! I avoid ESF - Oblivion General, and the Oblivion Discussion on this very forum to stop things like this being spoilt for me.

Why don't we all try to keep the spoliers contained within those thread, hmmm?

Sorry, although you have to admit it was pretty relevant to the discussion at hand. I'll remember to say SPOILER! in future.

SPOILER!

Jale wrote:Yup if all of the possible endings happened then he is dead, but he did have a devout following who will have carried on their merry way resurrecting dead people.

Ive just gone and read up on the Worm King with reference to Oblivion

(spoilers)
Apparently he did ascend to godhood and sought to overthrow Arkay as the god of life and death. However, he failed and was cast back to earth. He ended up a mortal man and is killed in the mages guild quest
(end spoilers)

Thus we can have his following in Hammerfell alive and well. One would expect they would be pleased at his return, and then annoyed at his death. They must have certain anonimity from him, if he felt that he could leave them in the stronghold as he settled a vendetta in Cyrodil.

We should also bear in mind that this is a faction which deals with death magic...who knows, we may speak to both the Underking and Mannimarco (the worm king)!

A joinable Necromancers faction would be fun. I'd just be cautious for the time being. Zurin Arctus was by the end of Daggerfall tired of everything mortal. There would be no speaking to him. And Mannimarco I don't think can be raised as anything more than a zombie by necromancers. Who knows,the guild probably held a proper funeral for him so he can't be resurrected.

edog99 wrote:Ok

you right
I give up
You convinced me that there is no need in mercenary\bounty hunters guild in TR...
Are you happy now?

No, no I am not

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 1:08 am

SPOILER

If there is any necromancer faction, it should just be a Mages' Guild split-off after necromancy was illegal. Atleast for Hammerfell.

edog99 · Post by **edog99** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:27 am

Smuggler guild

The Smuggler guild Must be includ in TR, Sumggling is the most profitable job in the world! So whay not in TR? It is also possible that in each province at TR will have a smogglers base, Or maybe the smugglers can be part of the thives guils...

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:42 am

Would someone care to read the first post!? I am not going into these arguments once more, three times was just enough.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:38 am

Sload wrote:SPOILER

If there is any necromancer faction, it should just be a Mages' Guild split-off after necromancy was illegal. Atleast for Hammerfell.

Mannimarco's Necromancers have always been a power while the mage's guild has been around. Galerion and he trained as Psjiics together, and set up their organisations around the same time. You could say it was an offshoot in that they both came from the same roots. I think most of the members would be Mage Guild defectors.

When I said speak to him, I meant as a ghost or summoned spirit, not as a real live man again. This isnt Harry Potter...

Zurin Arctus is dead (BIG FULL STOP).
But his people would still be around. They hate the other necromancers but would probably be a sneakier type of faction.

If we wanted to keep the ol' holy trinity of combat/magic/stealth we could do mannimarco's followers as really really magical, the Underking's old followers as the sneakier one and have a daedric cult of Clavicus Vile who are a bit more gorey.

Though personally I would just keep it to the Mannimarco and Arctus one, or even just have the Mannimarco one as playable, and you have to hunt out the Underking's rememaining followers.

I really am not just plucking this out of thin air here, there is overwhelming lore for this:
-The Worm King's citadel is in Scourg Barrow, Dragontain Mountains
-The Worm King appears in Oblivion with followers
-Someone that cunning would have a backup plan
-With the baning of necromancy many many more people would be 'going to ground' and finding a place to hide, like Scourg Barrow
-The Underking had loyal followers, who you did all your dealings with in Daggerall, and they were pretty secretitive
-Necromancy is a main theme in Oblivion so we should have it represented

As far as I'm concerned there is a big sign saying 'THAR BE NECROMANCERS HERE' planted squarely in the middle of Hamerfell. To ignore them would be like if we left House Dres and House Indoril out of Morrowind when we were building it.

On smugglers...nononononononono! Though there should be smuggling quests for people like the theives guild. Also if we do something like the immigration thing where you have to pay taxes on goods then you would have an incentive to smuggle just for yourself.

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:41 pm

Although I don't think there should be an actual smugglers guild, I think there should be something which makes npc smugglers less hostile if you smuggle too 'cause in morrowind I was annoyed that you could hardly do anything that had anything to with smuggling because there were hardly any smuggling quests and you couldn't interact with the smugglers in caves.

edog99 · Post by **edog99** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:33 pm

Yes!

That exactly what i ment! maybe sumggler are Disapprove guild
but way to make them completely hostile and untouched..
There should be at list few unhostile and tradeable\questable
smugglers wich can give us a litle more taste of the outlaw and the crimanal life and also to make some easy mony...

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:06 pm

Should I start doing a bit of quest and structure planning for the necromancers? I would envision it as a post-mages guild of cyrodil quest, so Mannimarco would be dead again.

I think it would be fun to have the player become a lich towards the end of the questline. That would be pretty awesome and would certainly add flavour and interest to the province. It would just be a sorta perma-buff with some downsides, and maybe a slight physical augmentation if that is possible (paler skin, maybe wierd eyes).

Orix · Post by **Orix** » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:36 pm

It's an interesting idea. There's nothing stopping you planning, although in my opinion it wouldn't be very prudent at this stage, Jale. Our focus should remain on Rihad/Stirk quests and design for the time being, and moving onto bigger and better things after they are done and dusted. People going off and doing what they want might not help things in the long term. This is just my view though.

But like I said, nowt to stop you planning, it just won't be useful for anything in the short term if its not situated in the lower quarter of Hammerfell near Rihad

.

edog99 · Post by **edog99** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:00 am

Jale wrot:

Should I start doing a bit of quest and structure planning for the necromancers? I would envision it as a post-mages guild of cyrodil quest, so Mannimarco would be dead again.

I say go for it!
Also segest you built the necromancers on the backround\history of the necromancers as sload wrote: "If there is any necromancer faction, it should just be a Mages' Guild split-off after necromancy was illegal. Atleast for Hammerfell."

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:35 am

Heh ive always been a bit of a foreward planner.

Besides, I dont know anything about the Rihad/Stirk situations so I woudl be useless at this late late stage.

Of course, there could be a couple of early quests based in Rihad. I reckon the recruitment thing should be like in Daggerfall: A zombie attacks you in the street with a message on its chest.

Heres a relaly old discussion I found on the topic: http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=8631&sid=988f696d38ae1f401c1883200c02e284

I do think this would be best to be written as a questline to pursue after the Cyrodil Mages guild. Now, you may ask why anyone would want to invite the person who killed your leader into the guid. Well there are some options..(some spoilers)

1) They view you as such a large threat that they feel the only way to survive is to get you on their side. If you can't beat em, join em. They try to show you the 'virtues' of their craft.

2) They leader of the necromancers who took over after the Worm King 'ascended' was actually pissed to have Mannimarco return, as it means he would lose power. Thus he is grateful and offers you a place in his guild

3) Mannimarco didnt really die when you 'kill' him in Oblivion, and was very impressed by your powers, and wishes you to train under his personal tuition. I dont like this one, its a bit of a cop out.

4)The necromancers rejected Mannimarco when he returned, so they are no longer allied with him, only a few chose to follow him to Cyrodiil

5) This is my personal favourite:
Apparently in Oblivion there is no proof that the man you kill really is Mannimarco. Perhaps when Mannimarco returned he was so weakened (I know I said this wasnt harry potter, but think like the whole Voldemorte thing) that he was unable to do anything, and his followers had to devote themselves to his return to power. Either that or he returned as a normal man and his people are helping him get back to undeath. Terrified that the Mages guild might catch wind of this and pounce while they are distracted helping mannimarco they create a diversion by sending a very powerful (but ultimately expendable) necromancer to pretend to be Mannimarco. The logic behind this would be that if the mages guild thought he was really dead, they wouldnt come and kill him in his weakened state if they found out/divined that he had returned.

Reasons why number 4 would be good and possible:
-I doubt the player would be able to kill the real Mannimarco...he was as powerful a Psjiic as Galerion himself, and thus a ridiculously powerful man. Even Galerion and all the Mages could not really kill him in their war. (http://til.gamingsource.net/obbooks/mannimarco.shtml)

-If Mannimarco had returned as a human man he would have probably set about returning to undeath before attempting to attack the well-established mages guild. Thats more his style, biding his time. He would not risk failure as he did

-If he had decided to attack Cyrodil straight after returning (unlikely) then he wouldnt have come with so few helpers. He would have gone all out: every necromancer he had. Sure, the numbers have probably decreased over the years, but those who are remaining are probably very powerful.

Im not going to go and start on it until I get a few more respected lore people behind me, but I think path 4 is the way to go. It really fits what I think Mannimarco would actually do if he returned.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:21 pm

Jale wrote:Besides, I dont know anything about the Rihad/Stirk situations so I woudl be useless at this late late stage.

Yes. The late late stage of not even having begun yet.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:04 pm

This is more of a lore discussion then part of actuall design procedures as I see it. I do not know what else should I say to this.
No one can forbid you to develop your ideas, but right now no one on these forums can promise there will be any outcome of them neither.
Anyway please open new thread for this discussion.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:07 pm

Umm Stirk planning hasnt begun?...http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=16020&start=80

Ive made my post. Its long...very long. But much of it is skimmable. Feel free to remove anything you think is unecessary from here. Or just tell me to do it.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:33 pm

THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS

Mannimarco should be treated as dead, or at least gone, in TR IMO. He is dead, and it will give us something more to work with without delving into murky lore.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:40 pm

The discussion has moved to this thread:
http://tamriel-rebuilt.org/old_forum/viewtopic.php?t=16123

And I think that would give us less to work with, as well as being against lore-based logic. Ive made my case in that thread. In fact im still adding to it.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:26 am

Nomadic1 wrote:The King of Worms is killed in the Mages' Guild questline in Oblivion. I found that out in the TES Lore forum.

Yes. And I must admit this plot arc was particularly disappointing. What, this most ancient and powerful of the arch liches, who managed to flee the Gray Maybe with the Mantella's essence and become a God, decide to reincarnate himself as a puny normal human so that he could wait in a hole until a champion arrives, gloat like a James Bond villain even though the champion isn't even captured or anything, and die?

Lame. We've seriously lost a lot of depth here...

I mean, this sort of thing is perfect for daedra princes -- after all, they don't care that much, if they're killed it's just a minor inconvenience until they can grow a new body back.

But a mortal who conquered undeath and then godhood in order to no longer be a mere mortal, deciding to renounce all that? It's nonsensical.

Amrod · Post by **Amrod** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:43 pm

Gez wrote:
Nomadic1 wrote:The King of Worms is killed in the Mages' Guild questline in Oblivion. I found that out in the TES Lore forum.
Yes. And I must admit this plot arc was particularly disappointing. What, this most ancient and powerful of the arch liches, who managed to flee the Gray Maybe with the Mantella's essence and become a God, decide to reincarnate himself as a puny normal human so that he could wait in a hole until a champion arrives, gloat like a James Bond villain even though the champion isn't even captured or anything, and die?

Lame. We've seriously lost a lot of depth here...

I mean, this sort of thing is perfect for daedra princes -- after all, they don't care that much, if they're killed it's just a minor inconvenience until they can grow a new body back.

But a mortal who conquered undeath and then godhood in order to no longer be a mere mortal, deciding to renounce all that? It's nonsensical.

Lore says he fougth arkay for his position and lost. he was then thrown back to nirn as a mortal. Although I can hardly believe a green unknown adventurer can beat a person who even galerion could not defeat. As some of you migth now galerion is the founder of the mages guild, and could shift mountains by touching them.

edog99 · Post by **edog99** » Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:32 am

I sure your all know the Farmers Guild mod: http://mwmodders.com/

It is a very nice mod.. So whay not to adopt this mod in TR... It gose very good with the slaves markets on morrowind, and in other provinces to hire workers and gurds, sell the goods in the markets & stores all around TR

It is very cool!!!

salmonix · Post by **salmonix** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:11 am

if I'm not too late I could help in developing Imp.Archeol.Soc. being a classical archaeologist myself.
If required could you provide startpoints?

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 7:43 am

The farmers guild won't be added by TR for the simple reason there is no basis for it to exist in lore.

The IAS would be a minor faction if included. We have plans to include it in Morrowind, although that province offered far more to excavate.

On a new topic: to try and prevent what I reckon was a recurring problem in Morrowind, can we plan before hand where each major faction has headquarters in the major cities? In Morrowind some cities should have had guildhalls (noticably Mournhold-Almalexia if even Sadrith Mora had them), some cities should have had a Temple but didn't (like Verarchen Hall in Map 4), there was a shortage of legion forts when it was clear every major city should have had one overlooking it, etc. Get it right beforehand and noone will have any right to complain.

salmonix · Post by **salmonix** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:36 pm

Dunno, if my prev.message hit the page...
I could help in creating the Archaeol.Society, If you could provide some background. (I'm archaeologist too.)
I would need some non dwemer ruins too.
I think the arch.soc. could be imagined as a relic collecting branch of the court historicians, later becoming more accurate , a bit esoteric esp. as they find some contradictionary evidence to the royal censored history of T. Might be a startpoint.
The quests would be looking for information - finding places from books, there objects -, and promoted when information is shared. So, here not necessarily an object would be in the focus of the quest.
The arche.soc. would have one kind of spell, only for the society members: detect object of interest. This would substitute the excavation.
And: I would include antiquity shops in the great cities only, where a wealthy class can afford such luxury. Here objects (of interest, of course) could be sold. For the objects there I could make some scetches of object easy to modell (like dwemer cups), and existing textures and motifs could be applied. So, not much work would be to develop some archaeological past for T.
Only ruins are needed, not necessarily spectacular, but ruins. If interested, I'd make some drawings.

Theo · Post by **Theo** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:43 pm

I am sorry to be the one to say it so open, but I came to conclusion that most likely no guild for TES III engine will ever be made. Map 1 is still in ready_for_quests_in_a_moment stage ever since I joined this project, which is over a year.
Thank you for your input everyone, but this thread should probably be locked as posting here will lead to no result. Otherwise there should be outline for Archeological society stickied somewhere in Private Tavern, if I am not wrong, but again.. (see above)

Tamriel Rebuilt

Approved guilds

Re: reply

ok

necromancer guild

underground

Re: underground

Smugglers guild

Smugglers

Farmers Guild