AFFA's Province Music Discussion

[AFFA]

I tried posting this in the Province Music Discussion, but:

Sorry, but only users granted special access can reply to posts in this forum.

OH NOES111

So, I'll put it here and hope no one minds.

A long time ago, in a city far away, I spent some time thinking about the music of Tamriel.

Trivia: I was assigned to do quests instead of level design for two reasons. First, my level design mostly sucked. Second, I made a sample CD of what I thought Khajiit and Argonian music might sound like. Petty "look at me! look at me!" projects like this were part of why I was assigned to do quests instead of being fired for being way behind schedule with my nit-picky level design (Did you ever notice Aryni Orethi is left handed? Assuming one of the artists didn't re-do that interior...).

The following are my assumptions. Take them for what they're worth.

If nothing else, perhaps someone might be inspired by something here.

The Music of Men

Assumption: The music that you hear in the games is in this style, but played with modern instruments. Thus, you might actually hear the Redguard Theme when wandering around Hammerfell. You might hear music similar to the MIDI files in Daggerfall when wandering around the Iliac Bay. The main difference would be that they were played on more primitive instruments, and perhaps with a different temperament.

Morrowind is an odd case, since the music in the style of men (i.e. a modern, fake-classical style), but the game does not take place in a land of men. I'm choosing to ignore this contradiction.

This means that men are roughly at the neoclassical stage with a few modern allowances, but with limited instrument technology. This is a good place to be, in my opinion. "Classical" music pretty much went downhill from there as it drifted away from harmony and reason.

Of course, this also means that since Redguard was a long time ago, and the music in Redguard doesn't sound all that different from the music in Morrowind, Tamriel has been stuck at the same stage of musical development, like, forever. I'm choosing to ignore this contradiction.

Yes, there are some Huge Assumptions here.

Imperials

Since the Imperials are stolen from real-life Rome and since both Rome and the Imperials tended to adapt the cultures of others instead of creating anything new, I assume that they don't have a real musical tradition, but rather steal the instruments, styles, and trends from the various other provinces. I must confess to a strong anti-Roman prejudice here, having visited too many SQUARE Roman ruins and read too much about their SQUARE culture and SQUARE history and overall SQUARENESS. At least the Imperials have a more vaguely medieval architecture, which is still SQUARE, but not as SQUARE as the SQUARE city of Timgad, which is a SQUARE with SQUARE buildings.

Okay, deep breaths... Count to ten. Okay.

Nords

If you believe the less sensationalist parts of the PGE, Nords have a strong a cappella tradition. And not in the boring "barbershop quartet" sense, but the exciting smashing rocks apart sense. I'm thinking Toby Twining, Bobby McFerrin, Shout Choirs, those guys in Dune, etc. Making all kinds of sounds with your voice, not just regular pitched oohs and aahs. Definitely Just Intonation instead of Equal Temperament. The songs Hymn and Himalaya from Toby Twining's Shaman album were made for a choir of Nord Tongues. At least the way I imagine them... Good luck finding a copy of Shaman, though.

I haven't spent much time thinking about what their non-vocal music would sound like.

Bretons

I imagine Bretons being closest to the Medieval-to-Romance music of the real world. I imagine they'd have music fairly typical of Europe, with a range of styles and eras. Some older music (Renaissance or earlier) is probably preserved and some of it may still be played (or borrowed from by current composers). The only real difference is that Bretons probably can't make some modern instruments due to technological restraints. For instance, their brass instruments are probably more often "natural" than "keyed," etc. Good valves aren't easy, though I admit there is some impressive metalwork in Tamriel, so it's certainly possible. If they didn't have keyed instruments, this would limit which notes they could play and things like key changes in the middle of a song. Again, they may use more Just Intonation than other temperaments because of instrument technology.

Redguards

I imagine the Redguards as having the richest and most diverse musical tradition due to their confused cultural heritage. They are also probably closest to 20th century music because they mix strong rhythms, repetition, and a backbeat (from Yokuda) with the more "classical" music of the other races of men. This is more or less how blues, jazz, and rock started. So perhaps Hammerfell could have some of that, to the extent the technology allows.

Off-Topic: The cultural origins argument is rather silly. I don't think of Redguards as African or Japanese or Arab or Celtic, etc. Redguards are Redguards, and their music is whatever you can get away with.

I think the music in the game Redguard was well done, though there wasn't enough of it. As I said before (see the Huge Assumptions above), I think it should be possible to hear this type of music if you're in Hammerfell. A combination of Classical, Romantic, or Neoclassical European music with any of several "tribal" or "folk" music styles could achieve this in theory.

Due to the Redguard culture (and the music in the game of the same name), I assume there would be a lot of military or majestic music. Not marches, exactly (or at least No Sousa, Please), but music intended to get your blood pumping rather than more intellectual music. They'd like Mars or Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi more than a Bach fugue.

The instrument technology problems, if they exist at all, would apply to Redguards, too.

The Music of Elves

I basically have no good ideas here. The stereotypical wimpy elf "Harp and Flute" music doesn't seem to apply to the mer of Tamriel, but I'm not sure what would.

The Music of the Beasts

Khajiit are twitchy. They tend to the atonal and arrhythmic. I think of them as playing a kind of staccato, syncopated jazz... I can imagine the style well, but it doesn't lend itself well to verbal description.

By syncopated and staccato, I mean like Gunslinging Bird or Tiger of San Pedro or Mr. Kenyatta.

By atonal, I mean Khajiti music wanders a bit, at least as much as it can with primitive instruments. I don't mean that it has no base tone or no structure or is shockingly dissonant. I believe the example of "atonal and arrhythmic but still sounds good (unlike all that 12-tone crap)" on my example CD was the first movement of Sonata for Harp by Germaine Tailleferre, one of my favorites. Of course, you can't play this on a harp without pedals... And those are probably too expensive for a medieval technology.

By arrhythmic, I mean that Khajiti musicians often speed up or slow down during play to add emotional emphasis, not that the music has no rhythm. By jazz I mean a tendency towards "simultaneous soloists" and larger intervals (again, within the limitations of primitive instruments).

Ideally, Khajiti music should fit together, but it should sound almost accidental. They are good synchronizers, Hayek capitalists, Darwinists... None of those are quite the right concept. Khajiti music is the result of Khajiti actions, but not of Khajiti design.

I imagine the Khajiit having rules for music, but as in other areas, they think of rules as suggestions. Or, as Mudarra wrote on one of his fantasias, "From here to the end there are many wrong notes. If you play it well, it will not sound bad."

Khajiti instruments aren't all percussive, but they tend to be played staccato. Khajiit use sustained notes, but have a preference for fast, short notes. I imagine the Khajiit would have something like a Hurdy-Gurdy that could do sort-of sustained notes, but not a real bowed instrument (other that what they imported from men--the Khajiit are almost as good at stealing from other cultures as Imperials). They have many wind instruments, but tend to play them staccato (trills, serious vibrato, and series of fast notes at the same pitch are common, but steady, sustained notes are not). Native Khajiti instruments would be even more primitive than those of men. This puts some constraints on what they can play and how jazz-like and atonal they can get.

The people of Rimmen, being a mix of Khajiit and Imperials of Akaviri descent, would have a unique style, which I could see spreading a bit. This would be reflected in their music, which might include various more asian instruments (especially some kind of "zither" such as a koto or guzheng) in addition to the regular Khajiit instruments.

Black Marsh

Due to their environment and apparently low technology, Argonians have even more limited instrument options. Unless Argonians have a metal-working culture (they do not appear to, but I was never an Argonian expert) and unless there are lots of mammals in Black Marsh (no idea) or a plant that can be made into instrument strings, Argonians wouldn't have easy access to strings or membranes. No drum heads. No string instruments. Only aerophones and idiophones made of wood. There are plenty of wooden aerophones (they're called wood winds for a reason), though Argonians probably wouldn't be able to make complicated keying mechanisms with just wood. There aren't many wooden, concussive idiophones (things like xylophones, maracas, udus, maybe a wooden form of mbira or jaw harp, etc), but most concussive idiophones have a unique sound, so there's more variety here than is first apparent.

In spite of their limited instrument choices, the Argonians have two big advantages for making music. First, their environment is full of natural instruments. Argonians could play hollow logs or even living trees. Argonians could also play the swamp itself. Did you ever play with the sound water makes in a bathtub? The Baka Forest People (Google them) make an art form of it, and I think the Argonians would do that too. Second, the Argonians can sing. Since I tend to think of the Argonians as more dinosaur than lizard, I assume that they make dinosaur sounds. Google for reconstructed dinosaur sounds and transposed bird calls for many examples. With a versatile voice box, various wood flutes, and some wood and water percussion, the Argonians could have a unique and highly complex form of music.

Imga

The Imga are mainly drummers. They have all kinds of drums, ranging from improvised (hollow logs, etc) to more complex skin and frame drums. I thought the Imga would have a particular fondness for drums that can do pitch shifts, such as udus or water drums (not to be confused with playing water like the Baka Forest People--the water drum is usually a single head kettle drum filled partly with water which changes the pitch as the water sloshes around).

Conclusion

There's no real justification for my assumptions, so I won't try to defend them. I'm just putting them out there in case someone else is interested.

[Macar]

A lot to respond to here. I'll hit a few points here. First of all, the music of Morrowind was not classical- in the sense of the classical period. I think you may be somewhat mislead in you conceptions of what constitues classical music. The music was more romantic, but it utilised some more modern techniques.

Also, I dont know how you can say that the classical was the be all and end all of musical periods. There was a lot of classical music that was crap. Most people cannot name a classical composer other than Mozart or Beethoven (who is borderline romantic). This is because a lot of this music was so boring it hasnt lasted. But anyway, that's a matter of opinion.

Another point I would like to hit is vocal music. There is a notable absance of vocal music from almost every video-game in history. The first reason is that it cannot be synthasized, and most videogame music is. But another reason is that vocal music lacks an ambient quality. Basicaly, lyrics tend to draw attention to themselves. If a song comes on, you tend to listen to the words to find out what the song is about. Now, music in an alien language may be less so, but that effect still exists. Another problem with vocal music is that singers who can properly imulate these various folk styles are few and far between. Add to that that they would have to be interested in modding and have decent recording equipment and you have some pretty slim odds. So, I have doubts about the inclusion of vocal music.

I have a bunch more coments on your post, but not enough time to adress them now. Stay tuned.

[Orix]

You'll have to get modder status and see what the rest of us have said on the subject, I'm sure you'll find it quite interesting .

I dont agree with large parts of your thinking though, Bretons, Nords, Argonians and Imga are the only ones I really see as making sense. For all the others, with the exception of elves, you limit the races to jazz and/or classical (although I personally prefer to think of it as orchestral).

I agree with Macar, vocal music for Nords would be great, but if you asked a raise of hands for celtic style vocallists, I dont think you get any. Macar, in terms of vocal music, I wouldn't expect to be able to understand the lyrics, they could be spoken in the Nordic tongue or something. If any of you have heard the StarWars: Republic Commando soundtrack (a widely available soure, since its free to download), vocals add a lot to the music without being too prominant.

[AFFA]

There are no words sung or spoken on the Shaman album, apart from a version of Agnus Dei, but that's only one track.

I mix definitions of classical, especially when I type fast, even if I try to avoid it. There's the more technical definition of "about 1750 to 1815" and there's the more popular definition of "anything before I was born."

When I say the music in the actual games is "fake classical" I mean that it sounds like Classical/Romance/Neoclassical music, but it's a product of the modern era with modern instruments, tunings, and a higher tolerance for discordance, etc. Though "neoclassical" is a vague term, too, as it can refer to a period of time or any modern composition that imitates an older style, etc.

Music seems to improve and build upon the past until the Modernist period. The cut-off for date for anything that sounds pleasing to the ears is somewhere in the 1930s or 1940s, but the decline started with the impressionists. It gets increasingly abstract from there and slowly becomes noise instead of music.

Edit: If you could send me links to past discussions, I would appreciate it.

[Stalker]

Just in case you didn't know AFFA is also known as Jobasha and he's ex-dev. I hope it was OK to say that

[Morden]

Trivia: I was assigned to do quests instead of level design for two reasons. First, my level design mostly sucked. Second, I made a sample CD of what I thought Khajiit and Argonian music might sound like. Petty "look at me! look at me!" projects like this were part of why I was assigned to do quests instead of being fired for being way behind schedule with my nit-picky level design (Did you ever notice Aryni Orethi is left handed? Assuming one of the artists didn't re-do that interior...).

I assumed so, from this...

Anyways, I'll stay out of this discussion because I know nothing about music.

[Morgoth]

Just in case you didn't know AFFA is also known as Jobasha and he's ex-dev. I hope it was OK to say that

Er... This is true? Wow, that's awesome! So, AFFA, you'll know all about lore then?

[Macar]

really . I thought he was just some savant. Wow. I guess I didn't really pick up on what you were talking about when you said that stuff about quests.

Anyway, continueing my response:

The music that you hear in the games is in this style, but played with modern instruments. Thus, you might actually hear the Redguard Theme when wandering around Hammerfell. You might hear music similar to the MIDI files in Daggerfall when wandering around the Iliac Bay. The main difference would be that they were played on more primitive instruments, and perhaps with a different temperament.

Can you explain this any further? If I understand what you are saying is that the same themes would be all the reigons, but as you traveled from one place to the next the style of thier playing would change. IE. in hammerfell you might hear the title theme from morrowind played in a redgaurd style. Is that what you mean?

[Adanorcil]

Great. I have a lot of work to do. Not only do I talk about imaginary creatures, now I talk about imaginary music too...




Good, let's get to my reactions then.

I will not pretend that I know a whole lot about music, but I do think that music is more than the sum of the environmental condition. Music is a result of -yes, I know- conditions, technology, available materials but also of political and religious situations, economy and war or peace.

Looking at each province in particular, they have very different histories. Since we are talking late Third Era here, I am going to look at the events in the last centuries (since history obviously evolves more slowly in Tamriel than it does on earth). This only applies for some regions though, I will treat the ones I don't mention later.

The Music of Men

Cyrodiil

If there is one thing I do know, it is that culture is not random. Without people realizing it, it is one of the most cyclic events in history.

In Cyrodiil, I will start from the beginning of the Third Era. All is well under the reign of Tiber Septim, the new Empire is powerful as can be. This would normally result in grand, powerful, barocque-like music, reflecting the glory and grandeur. Over the following years, the Empire is threathened by internal strife (War of the Red Diamond), wars (War of the Isle) and invasions (Camoran Usurper). All of this could easily have caused a kind of desperate, romantic feeling. A new period begins with Uriel V, who diverts the attention by conquering new land, reminding the Imperials of the glory of old. After this, the Empire slowly glides away into its old situation again, until we are at the moment we are now. The Emperor is weak, sickly and can no longer rule the Empire.

[AFFA]

Can you explain this any further? If I understand what you are saying is that the same themes would be all the reigons, but as you traveled from one place to the next the style of thier playing would change. IE. in hammerfell you might hear the title theme from morrowind played in a redgaurd style. Is that what you mean?

Not quite. I just assumed that the music you hear in the games is the music of Tamriel, with some changes (modern instruments, etc). That style of music is common to the races of men (or perhaps just one them... maybe all you hear on the game soundtracks is Breton or Cyrodilic music).

There isn't any reason for this assumption. You could just as easily assume that the music you hear in the games is (with a few exceptions, where someone in-game actually plays a song) just ambiance and part of the game rather than part of the lore.

Assuming that the music you hear is the actual music of the land does cause some problems as I mentioned. It would mean that the music hadn't changed much between the game Redguard and the other games, etc.

[Macar]

Oh okay I understand now. And I agree somewhat. I agree, the music you hear ingame is a like an orchestral arangment of what thier folk music actualy sounds like. I dont think that any ingame culture has orchestras, becuase no culture in the game seems like they are further than medieval.

[Eraser]

Really cool to have an ex dev here

I think ambient music is more of an environmental thing in games than the cultures of the people of an RPG. Morrowind's music didn't sound "dunmer" to me, but more of a music for the mood of exploring or fighting. I plan on using all of it in oblivion.

[AFFA]

I always thought the full orchestra was more related to economics and fashion (patronage, city size, fully notated music vs. obbligato plus, etc) than technology. Tamriel seems rich enough and organized enough to have a few orchestras (assuming city size in-game is small due to technology and time more than lore...), but orchestras may not be fashionable or musical notation may still be undeveloped, etc.

I assumed that orchestras existed and were "in fashion," but I can't say I have any evidence for that. It's just an assumption.

I think orchestras have been mentioned a couple times in the lore. The Asylum Ball, for instance. But maybe only the Emperor can afford one...

Edit:
As I mentioned already, the fact that Morrowind's music doesn't sound different from the other games is a problem with my assumption. I was assuming that the music in Morrowind was the music of men and empire, not the music of the native Dunmer. And otherwise ignoring that contradiction. Assuming that the in-game music is not part of the lore is an equally valid (and perhaps more liberating) assumption.

[Macar]

I thought the music of morrowind kind of fit the environment (not necisarily the culture). It was very desolate and depressing, which sounds like morrowind to me. Also, the title theme set the mood with it's dirge like quality. How long has that been the TES theme?


Orchestras actualy developed from 2 things. One is the idustrial revolution; with mass production the cost of suplying such a large ensemble became feasable. Second factor was the boom of the middle class. In the 19th century, when a lot of people could afford to see concerts, huge concert halls were buit, and they needed huge ensembles to fill them.

Okay, point by point:

Nords: As I said, I dont know about the vocal stuff, but I'll have to have a listen to that shaman thing. I agree with you in principle that the nords are most likely focused on vocal. I imagine that the instumental side of things is probably lyres and posibly the lute. The bards would accompany themselves monophonicly as they recount thier historic epics that take 3 days to recite.

Bretons: Celtic and English Renaisance would probably be the way to go. They are the most genericly fantasy, and that would be the music to go along with them.

Redgaurds: Here I'm not shure I agree. First of all, I do think of the Redgaurds as afro-arabic with some other faint influences (far eastern, gypsies, and of course pirates . I'm not shure I like the idea of Jazz feelining, I think that that type of music is too modern. After all, Jazz was also heavily influenced by appalachian and American music, a cultural force with no counterpart in Tamriel. Mostly though, I just think it creates the wrong environment. What I do think they would have though, is eclectic beats and mixed meter. I do agree that thier martial heratige would incline them toward militaristic music. I still cant bear to part with the arabic sound, though. I think that it just sets the environemt so well in desert places to use those modes.

Blackmarsh: I agree that a lot of woodwinds would be nice. I'm thinking of an airy sound, not a lot of reed instruments (even though I suppose a lot of reeds grow there). As for membranes, I'm no drum maker, but would it realy be imposible to make drums out of reptile hides? And if they need mamal skin, there is always a steady suply of unexperienced Dres slavers But I think woodblocks and stick drumming would be nice for the swampy atmosphere.

Khajit: I have more to add to this later, but I do remember a lore attested khajit instrument that was discribed as plucked metal bars. That seems to line up with what you were describing.

Igma: do they really have thier own cultre? I thought they just lived with bosmer.

More on Khajit and elves later.

[AFFA]

As far as I know, the Morrowind theme was original to Morrowind. I don't recall hearing anything like it in the previous games.

The industrial revolution can't be a pre-requisite for orchestras. They gained popularity in the 17th century along with opera, long before musical instrument manufacture was automated. I see it as more of a general economic issue, but I don't really know. Also, ancient Egypt had orchestras. Or at least ensembles of two dozen or so musicians. In fact, the word "orchestra" comes from Greek drama (the auditorium for the audience, the proscenium for the actors, and the orchestra for the choir and musicians--a Greek orchestra wouldn't be as large as a modern orchestra, but I'm not sure you could claim it wasn't one).

I wrote Mixed Unit Tactics, so of course a mbira-like instrument fits That is not exactly fair, I admit.

Vocal music makes sense to me for Nords, but I can see some of the technical problems with it. Even a good sound bank (i.e. Miroslav Choir) of vocal samples wouldn't sound natural. I might see if I can force them into a natural sound or at least a state of nature. But I don't have them yet.

I don't have strong feeling about Redguard music (or any, really, apart from the beast races). I was just throwing out some ideas.

You can make drum heads out of reptile skins, but it's not that common on Earth. Now that I think about it, one of the main reasons reptile skins aren't used for drums is size. That's a problem on Earth (not many big enough lizards--they tend to be used for rare, narrow, ceremonial drums), but that might not be a problem on Tamriel. The other reasons have to do with how well the skin stretches and vibrates. Reptile skins could be used if Tamriel reptiles have softer skin or if the skins are treated to make them more flexible and/or stronger (which you can do on Earth: alligator boots, rattlesnake belts, etc--it's just not common for drums).

I've assumed the Imga have their own culture. They only appear in the PGE to any real degree. There, they are depicted with distinctly different attitudes (if not culture) from the Bosmer. But the PGE isn't exactly an unimpeachable source. Until there's more Official Lore on them, you can pretty much make up anything.

[Eraser]

Well, we'll see with the new tes4 collectors edition PGE.

Reptiles would be a very viable source for skins in Tamriel, in morrowind alone you've got guars, alits, durzogs and kagouti. All huge as far as reptiles go....and for the telvanni, indoril and dres, there's always argonians themselves.

Considering the environment, I think their music would have a distinct persian/islamic resemblance.

[Macar]

Wow, I dont want to act star struck or anything; but as far as I'm concerned, your word is gospel when it comes to Khajiti lore .

I have never encountered anything about Egyptian orchestras, that's odd since, as you may guess, I'm a bit of an enthusiast (see my avatar). Basicly my knowlage of music that predates western notation is almost none. But, industrail revolution was instrumental in the development of large-scale orchestras. There were some before that, but the baroque orchestra was quite different- a lot smaller and quiet, especialy in opera where it was often just harpsichord and a few strings. But it's not really that important.

This is a very inspiring thread! I'm hoping to have time on Friday to record some short clips of what I'm imagineing to get some opinions.

[Macar]

Okay, here's an attempt at creating an argonian sound http://media.putfile.com/blackmarsh-sample
What do you all think?

[Adanorcil]

I like it. The percussion sounds a bit unorganized at first, but this improves and it adds to the feeling too. My idea would be to make the flute that plays those long tones in the first ten seconds sound more hoarse, if you get what I mean. The slight dissonant around 0:16 sounds very well too. I like how it gains more power, though that power seems to be added by stringed instruments. (Which is not much of an objection in my opinion.)

[Macar]

Well, keep in mind that that wasnt really a finished piece; more an experament with sonority. The former half represents the music as the argonians might perform it, the later what it might sound like ingame. I agree that the flute would sound better if it were more enthnic, but alas, I have no such sample.

I'm working on similar samples of khajit and bretonian. Stay tuned.

[Macar]

These are the new samples. I dont like the khajit one so far, what do ya think.

http://media.putfile.com/renaisancey
http://media.putfile.com/Khajit

[Orix]

I've listened to the Rennaiscance one, so far it would make quite nice explore music, similarity to Daggerfall music is clear. I realise its not finished, but the bit with the tamborine, although its a good choice of instrument, didnt quite sound right, like it was out of sync with the rest fo the music.

[Macar]

http://media.putfile.com/blackmarsh-2

A new short Blackmarsh piece with ideas from Affa. Check it out, tell me what you think.

[AFFA]

The instrumentation is close, and I like how it starts.

I think the voices and splashes are too prominent. It seems odd when the music almost cuts off for the splashes. I'd just work them into the background--basically, replace a "background" percussion instrument with the splashes. I think they're like the hi-hats and tambourines of Black Marsh. Ever-present, but rarely prominent. Some of the voice samples sound very "Argonian" to me, but I'd probably keep them in the background, too.

Anyway, I have Reason 3 now. And a Reason for Dummies book. The samples haven't arrived yet, and the learning curve is steep. But perhaps I'll have something to share more publically before the end of next month.

[Eraser]

None of the links want to work for me

[Orix]

The Khajiit music is pretty interesting, although when I listen to it, I think more of wood elves. I really dont think the music would suit Elsweyr. Its kinda wierd, a bit lighthearted and kinda cheeky. I like the way it builds up into a tune, its pretty effective, and it's difference in cohesion makes it quite unique. I think it would work really well in Valendwood, maybe in the wildrness or small town.

I like the Argonian tune, although, like AFFA, I didnt like how the music stopped for the vocals (which are really ace by the way! are they from morrowind?) nor how the vocals were too prominant. The tune itself is spot on, quite friendly, so I can imagine it being a society music, such as a city. The ambiant sounds really add to the music too.

[Macar]

Yeah, I guess I got carried away with the level for the sound effects. I guess I was just exited to have figured out a clever way of integrating them (since the music program I'm using dosent have a way to do it). Yes, the vocals are Bethesda originals. I reversed it so that they would be incomprensable and sound like a forien language. I also played with the pitch and rythm to make it sound chantlike. I'm playing around with making a more scary version- just by changing a few notes to make it minor.

PS. metal percussion rules out the khajitsample for vallenwood.

[AFFA]

Well, the wacky Bosmer might not want to use wood instruments either... Other than skin drums (in which the shell can be made of anything stiff enough without altering the sound too much) and bone flutes, I doubt anyone could find samples of instruments that are entirely animal parts.

Hm.

I didn't think the Khajiit one sounded like what I had in mind, but I'm well aware that I have a hard time explaining what I think it sounds like.

[Macar]

Wait, actualy I think I had it backwords, it's wood that they dont work- not metal. Anyway, I didnt really like the Khajit sample either- It just sounds like John Cage to me (not the mortal combat character). But it dosent sound khajiti.

[Vholdrian]

I tried posting this in the Province Music Discussion, but:

Sorry, but only users granted special access can reply to posts in this forum.

OH NOES111

So, I'll put it here and hope no one minds.

Nice idea's.

Will you compose it?

[Macar]

I dont know if your read the whole thread. But he said:

perhaps I'll have something to share more publically before the end of next month.

[Graff]

[Could an admin move this to the S&M forum, now we've solved the access problems?]

[Anonymous]

Well if we need any wierd effects they can be tacked onto sythesised music, and over the next 2 years I will be learning to use a recording studio, and have regular access to it. Ive already had a few turns at using wierd instruments...I used a guitar pedal (Zfex Fuzz Factory) not plugged into a guitar, just an amp, set it so it was constantly spewing out feeback and played it with two of its knobs to make a sound like a theremin. I also used a knackered acoustic guitar as percussion, tapping strings against the bottom of the fretboard for a crazy, clicky, semi-harmonic sound.

Using wierd instruments always helps. Anyone watch 'Lost'? The percussion in there is actually bits of the plane!

[Sincerebrus]

Hey man, that Black Marsh 2 track sounds AWESOME that'd be perfect for in-game I'd reckon.. That atmospheric sound, like you're actually in a swamp really kicks asp lol.. My browsers seems to be stuffing up a bit atm, I keep on getting all these annoying pauses and stuff in the music.. I'm kind of unsure of the Khajit one.. sounds a little too modernish.. I know, this is sort of false-medieval music we're making, but it doesn't really seem to have a medievallish sound.. idunno, I can't even be constructive here.. I know jack all about the khajit..

On another point, lore-wise what about the.. errrm.. the name isn't coming to me atm, but the large flying jelly-fish style things in TES3: Morrowind.. If they inhabity swamps (Unless they are native only to the Morrowind province) wouldn't swampy-native races be able to use their hide, etc, for drumskins? Idunno, just an idea.. Really quite pointless, but yeah.. hehe

[sapien]

Ive read this entire thread and i really think i could take a crack at making some of the in game music , i have been producing music for a hobby and for my friend who dj's , i like alot of tribal music , studied classical music at school, i can play numerous instruments , and i have a few music production programmes at home.

ill make up what i think the music for those races would sound like , id mostly like to try the khajit and argonian styles

I think that the khajit style of music , would be based around simplistic drum and wood instruments, minimal percussion with a good depth.As they are similar to animals the sound of their music would almost mimic nature , the sounds of the animals they hear when they were wild , assuming that they evolved from cat species.I think it would sound alot like african tribal music mixed with aboriginal instruments. The drum is the most basic music instrument yet the most popularly used around the world in any tribe, starting from rituals to create shamanic trance.
To tell stories of myths and legend.

The argonian music would sound richly organic in origin again to mimic the sounds of the animals in the black marsh . For instance frogs can make interesting songs when mating and the argonians would listen when relaxing , they could mimic this in their music , their music would flow continuously reaching a climax then slowing down , much like a river starting slow in the mountains then coming to a waterfall then rapids then to the seas or lakes.It would sound like insect like and be of high pitch , and low basstones, their hearing being of a different frequency i imagine.

Its quite hard to decide on set style for something we have no reference for , however its all down to opinion.

I think we should get as many differnt styles possible for the khajit and argonian and then pick the best ones voted by everyone .

In no way would khajit and argonian borrow from breton or imperial or nord styles.

for instance khajit hands are to large to play fine stringed instruments , similar with argonian .

well thats my two cents

[Thrignar Fraxix]

We don't really have any use for Khajiit or Argonian music.

[Orix]

Although music for Hammerfell is more than welcome!

We've aimed for a pseudo-Middle Eastern/Arabian thus far.

[Macar]

Yes, at the moment Khajit and Argonian music would be a waste of you time, though short samples just for experaments are okay. Just dont blow to much time on something that we cant use.

Affa had some interesting ideas about Reguard music, but I just dont know how we would impliment them. Backbeat and things like that wouldnt really fit in game.

We want to make the music of hammerfell just with a hint of exoticism. Around the border this is faint- but areas like the Alik'r should have a really middle eastern sound to them.

[sapien]

Yes i see what you mean , i was just interested in the discussion , i think that i could make some interesting middle eastern sounding arabic music , of course nothing like a full score production , just some ambient sounds to give the desert something other than sand particles blasting everywhere and the howling winds.

im thinking some long string sounds , with some sort of toms, or some minimal bass drum , with some reed sounds and sort of clicking stick type sounds , you know there was a game called global operations that was a multiplayer FPS , and the opening music had a really good sound to it !

But id like to aim just for ambient sounds to give the impression of wide open desolate spaces .

[Gilboron]

About Elven Music:

Granted, for Dunmeri music we already have an idea (sort of) due to the instruments we find in game. Lutes and drums. Chimes. Tribal, Mongolian, Japanese and Egyptian influences would be expected due to the type of culture we get to explore in TESIII.

Altmeri, I imagine, would use a lot of strings and violins and bells and choirs. Lots of old (not primitive) instruments too, due to their nostalgic and conservative nature.

Bosmeri would probably use animal skin drums and flutes. We have got the least idea of this one, mostly because we don't really get too much culture information on these guys, unlike the Altmer, were we did get some in past games.

Of course, these are just ideas, and I can't compose music at all, so it'll just be ideas from my side. I wish I could compose tracks anyway.