Oblivion's size doesn't quite ..fit

[Anonymous]

There have been several complaints about the world size of Oblivion and that the presented size of Cyrodil is nowwhere close to what it apears on its maps.

Of course some of this might be explained if you say that the old mappers of Tamriel simply exagerated the presentation of the province, because its the central of the empire.

In adition to that, the central area(city and lake)compared to the borders appears much bigger than on the known worl maps. This mathces to the mappers theory.

But even then its WAY too small. Its so tiny that you can see the imperial town from almost any place in the whole province. I think its even smaller then ingame Vrardenfell.


You wanted to create the next province on tes4 engine, but in order to do that, you have to adjust several things.
In my opinion you have these three options:
-Adjust to the proportions used in tes4 and build an province that is as minuscule.
-Adjust the drawn world map you formerly used so that it considers the "real" size of cyrodil.
-Rework the province of cyrodil so that it gets larger.

Personally i'd choose a combination of the last two, because several player are anoyed about the small size and want a bigger one and this is the most qualified comunity for this job. But off course inflating it so much that it matches its actuall map would be way too much work and pretty senseless, because it would create much emty landscape.
So inflating ingame Map and sqeezing together World map would be the best compromize.

I havent found a comment about this aspect of your work, so pplease help me out^^

[fanfas]

Well we have discussed this issue in private, and we are already trying some heightmaps to see what will be the best sacale to do it... Stay tuned for more breaking news as soon as we got them

[Vrenir]

I was hesitant to bring this up here, as TR usually likes to do its own thing, and do it very well, but I actually initiated a detailed discussion of this very idea at Silgrad earlier this week. There's also a thread that I started on Planet Elder Scrolls.

I don't know what the committee here has come up with, but I have some voices of support for a rescale at Silgrad, and if we could help each other and merge these two ideas of how to do it, we might actually be able to pull it off.

Once again I know fully that Silgrad especially has had "bad blood" with TR before over lore stances and the like, but I think that a basic rescaling of Cyrodiil is objective enough that both groups could work together for the common good.

Please check out my threads, and let us help each other with whatever plan is most viable. Thanks.

[url]http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/thread.php?postid=21912#post21912
[/url]
[url]http://www.forumplanet.com/planetelderscrolls/topic.asp?fid=16701&tid=1877294[/url]

[Morden]

We've discussed the scale issue to death. The debate continued till everyone was exhausted. We've decided to put opinions and personal preferences aside, and concentrate technical gameplay issues. In other words, the solution which breaks the game least. We are currently working through technical aspects such as game maps, possible worldspace limitations, and shear landmass volume.


I've also just become an administrator of this project, and I have no bad blood with ST, eventhough i'm one of the few people left from said 'bad blood' era. So cheers to that. I have no problems opening a dialogue with other mod communities concerning the new technical challenges we face. In fact, I'd encourage it. However, I don't expect this community to make its scale consistent with other province mods.

[Garrett]

We're certainly not expecting TR nor any other modding team to conform to this standard (Beyond Cyrodiil teams likely will, but their leaders are pretty much all for it anyway). All we're wanting is as many modders as possible to help create the definitive version of Cyrodiil. If other teams end up building at a compatible scale that's merely the icing on the cake of an already epic project.

Hopefully the technical work your members have already done on this topic can soon be shared with what we've already worked on (perhaps via a wiki?) and we can all work together towards this goal. As it is I really can't see the handful of our own members who have expressed an interest getting this done alone, regardless of their enthusiasm and dedication. The new Cyrodiil will simply be too big.

Uriel Septim Needs YOU! Join today!

[Sload]

Its a (possibly unofficial) policy we've had to ask people not to advertise other projects, modding or otherwise, on our forums. Thanks.

[Morden]

I thought it was a discussion regarding the scale of province modifications... how it could be done, whether its a good idea, and if its technically feasible. I read the Silgrad thread however, and it doesn't seem to be a discussion as I had hoped. On the contrary its a plan for rebuilding Cyrodil on a larger scale.

I'd have to say that we have our hands full as it is. Best of luck.

[Garrett]

Just like TR we've discussed other provinces' scales already and largely burned out. This thread was a fresh take on the concept by looking at Cyrodiil only, with the idea that a united standard would help resolve the indecision of the various projects as to what scale to use.

The problem is not only that we have to consider scale vs. Cyrodiil but also vs. each other (two of our teams are even sharing a worldspace). You at least don't have that problem!

However this discussion can only lead to good things: it will help the Beyond Cyrodiil projects decide upon a shared scale and stick to it. Whether or not we ever finish the bigger Cyrodiil, the planning stage will still have been a success.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm sure we'd all still like to hear about your technical discoveries at some point though, there's bound to be much we can learn from them.

[CleverClothe]

Seems to me the scale was almost perfect:

http://www.merzo.net/Oblivion/mergedALL.jpg

The reason it seems small is that you can see more than 1 cell away and the mountains are much bigger.

But I do wish Oblivion were made on a larger scale.

[Xui'al]

But I do wish Oblivion were made on a larger scale.

Me too. Cyrodiil is almost 600 miles long, and yet we barely have any of it!

[Vrenir]

OK, so I guess that there was a misunderstanding here of what this thread initially was about on my part of on Morden's part or something. I do really want to know if this is viable though as a focused precision operation, and TR is one of the most technically accomplished teams there is. If anyone from here is sitting on their hands, waiting for something to do until models or a merging program are ready (aka people who know what they're doing with the CS or heightmapping but aren't working on finishing TR's Morrowind project or building models for Hammerfell), we'd really appreciate your help.

I don't want to threaten the identity of either TR or Silgrad/Beyond Cyrodiil. Each is unique and worthwhile. Also, the differences between the ways of operating on lore are real as a general rule. I just think that things like this could help both, and the best way to make those mutually helpful things is to work together temporarily.

Maybe the Cyrodiil project is a pipe dream, but I figured a few days ago that I'd throw it out there in the most orderly fashion I could to see if it had a chance, and instead of being instantly shouted down, some people actually responded positively! That was really impressive; it indicated a need, and I want to see where it can go from here. If it dies, it dies, and both TR and ST will be able to go on none the worse for it. But if it can provide both with what it intends to, then I think both of us will be better off. Moreover, I, for one, would much rather play on a cohesive map, and I'm sure there are other players who would as well.

[Anonymous]

Well, as some of you have already pointed, my initial idea was simply to discuss how to deal with Bethesdas scaling.

I knew there had to be discussions in smaler groups, but I haven't found a thread about it. So I wanted to hera some oppinions and include more people.

It is simply that several players and a lot of modders complain about cyrodils size.
CleverClothe you are right. inside of Oblivion the provinces match perfecktly together, but compared in whole with other Elder Scrolls titles it appears rather tiny.
Espessially the fact, that you can see 600 miles far and jump over the giant river in some places.
So that mods might appear as tiny as well.

So the idea was mentioned to lets say double length and width and thus create 4 times the amount of cells.
Due to missing tools there is are severel things that can't be done yet anyway. But this Project is, perhaps work intensive, but on the technical side rather simple.
like moving the important cells like big citys a bit out and filling the cracks up with landscape.
Even without an updated version of TesFaith someone with the knowledge and the ambition could do this manually.

I think im getting too technical here^^ it's youre work, not mine (;

And personally I like the idea of the big modding comunities. to work together to set an new standart for modding around cyrodil

[Garrett]

The lack of TesFaith is a little disappointing, but not as devastating as it would have been for Morrowind. Between heightmaps and SpeedTree much of the raw landscaping can be done in days or weeks instead of months.

Anyway, first of all come the towns, where it's easy to just remove the borders and add another ring or street or whatever, without doing much landscaping at all. Even with them still small on the outside, having larger town interiors will definitely be an improvement.

However the underlying problem is STILL the exclusivity; even if we release compatibility patches for the official plugins/expansions many modders will say we're trying to strong-arm everyone into complying with our standard. Which in fact we are (but not out of malice).

[Morden]

Thanks for letting us know guys. Its certainly an ambitious project, and i'll keep my eye on it. I'd be interested in seeing more when you have a solid game plan. I may join the discussion on the ST forums.


PS.

Sload is quite right.

Its a (possibly unofficial) policy we've had to ask people not to advertise other projects, modding or otherwise, on our forums. Thanks.

I love discussions, but with respect to this community, please don't recruit:

Uriel Septim Needs YOU! Join today!

Cheers.

[El Scumbago]

I understand this discussion is over, but I just saw it and would like to add my valueless two cents.

Truth is that if you draw a straight line across the map, and hit no cities, you can move the series of cells that are on that line at a distance of one or two cells away and fill the gap created with other cells (just like in Excel). Thus, the distance between cities can grow. And most important, the cities themselves can accept some building additions, which will allow them to look more like...cities. My guess is that moving a cell will not affect a marker that a quest would add in a place within that cell. So you needn't remake Cyrodiil, just add some series of cells, both vertically and horizontally.

This way it seems much easier and very possible that the province enlargement is accomplished within a relatively short amount of time (say, one to two months at most).

[Garrett]

That wasn't recruiting, it was an allusion to an obscure parody comic. I realised later no-one else would remember it.

As for the cut-n-paste idea, that could work but might have problems. Every time there's a beautifully rolling hill done by Beth it's going to be messed up by having either a flat top or a wider base. However initially that might be the best way. Onc everything has been moved appropriately we could then re-flow a new heightmap beneath the already nicely positioned statics.

Good idea really.

[CleverClothe]

I think it would be harder that it seems and wouldn't be worth the effort. Why not create a new world space for the new provinces so that they can be built at 4 times (or whatever is decided) scale?

[Garrett]

Well, yes, that's going to be done anyway, but the whole point of this idea is to make Cyrodiil larger to match them.

[sirwootalot123]

Why not create a new world space for the new provinces so that they can be built at 4 times (or whatever is decided) scale?

I'd been vehemently arguing for this, and then dexter closed the thread RIGHT when I was about to post a map showing that the "vast" ak'lir desert would be so tiny as to be impossibly stupid in oblivion's scale (not to mention each city would have two cells between them). I'm working on heightmaps now, but it takes SO DAMN LONG to do (regardless of scale, just as long) that I wont have anything useable for a while - but I can say for certain that, technically, a larger scale presents no immediate issues.

[Garrett]

No, the actual scaling a particular project goes for doesn't matter much, as long as you can't see the edge of the worldspace! Oblivion's draw distance is great, but inadvertently causes problems for modders.

[Sload]

I can say for certain that, technically, a larger scale presents no immediate issues.

Depending on what you consider to be an issue, which of course is entirely subjective.

[sirwootalot123]

Technical issues such as morrowind's jitter bug, corrupted files, or random CTDs. The only technical downside of a bigger scale is a bigger file size, which is an issue of how patient you are while downloading more than anything else.

[Mountanious]

I dont see why one couldnt just accept Cyrodiil's size in oblivion and scale thereafter, seems by far the easiest task. And perhaps it will aid in Hammerfell getting out before TES5

[Sload]

I dont see why one couldnt just accept Cyrodiil's size in oblivion and scale thereafter, seems by far the easiest task. And perhaps it will aid in Hammerfell getting out before TES5

That would be far too reasonable.

[Garrett]

The problem is, putting aside lore scaling, Hammerfell is SMALLER than Cyrodiil. And when people make landmass mods, "epic" invariably goes through their minds.

[Sload]

Tamriel is not smaller than Cyrodiil.

[The Old Ye Bard]

Sload you can't read posts.

[Sload]

No, Mr. Old Ye, it is you who cannot read posts. For if you could read what I had said properly, you would have understood exactly what I meant.

That said, this should not extend into yet another arguement about such a ridiculous subject that should not even have come up. So allow me to present you with a speech, prepared for me by the ghost of Johnnie Cochran.

Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed project, some members would certainly want you to believe that a larger scale is the appropriate course of action. And they make a good case. Hell, I almost agreed with them myself! But, ladies and gentlemen of the this supposed project, I have one final thing I want you to consider.
[img]http://swg.stratics.com/content/lore/personas/images/chewbacca.gif[/img]
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this discussion? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this discussion! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm supposed to be arguing about scale, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're deliberatin' and conjugatin' about scale, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed project, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! Sload rests.

[Anonymous]

Not to mention given Oblivion's scale, it would take what, an entire day(in game) to go from one end of Cyrodil all they way through Morrowind, if this mod were to use the scale?

Problem I see is, if there isn't a way to scale everything equally up at the same time, we'll run into far worse problems. But I doubt the construction set comes with a tool to select all exterior cells > X*size of said cells...

[Garrett]

The intention of re-opening this discussion was to determine how feasible a rescale is and how exactly it would be done, not to debate whether it should be done or not.

Gotta love the Chewbacca Defense!

No, there isn't any way to stretch terrain (barring an external tool along the lines of TesFaith). Either new heightmaps are done and then trees and ruins and whatnot moved to match the new land, or else new cells are added between the existing ones to achieve the same effect (as El Scumbago suggested above). The latter would be easier in all ways, while the former would take a lot more time but likely have the best results.

As for travel time, the upsize Vrenir suggested is approximately 1/3 bigger than it already is. Travel-wise it isn't much, but modding-wise it would create a LOT of new land.

[Mountanious]

I think Chewbacca just settled it.

[Anonymous]

Do you know for sure if TesFaith doesn't work or is it just a matter of creating a new program?

Also a more plausible solution(might be, its in use on some mods for FPS games): Micro-scaling. All character, creature, item, objects, weapon, armor models are scaled smaller, textures rescaled to fit the new sizes. If the player model was say 1/4 the size of the original, the player speed slowed down a bit, the effect of having a large world could be achieved.

Of course this might be more work than just using the landscape tool.

[Orix]

That Jhonny Cochrane person never did know his Star Wars lore... Chewbacca never lived on Endor, everyone kinda left Endor to defeat every-other crazed madman that came with yet another big super weapon every week, in the expanded universe .

Still... South Park...

The scale debate is on a standstill. If tech issues say a landmass connecting to Cyrodil is too difficult, with its own map and what not, we'll opt for a seperate worldspace. If having a worldspace causes problems, we're buggered, until someone finds a solution. Simple as... [insert disclaimer here]

The scale debate will come afterwards again, no doubt... unless a core memeber puts their foot down after the issues debate is sor-ted. So far the debating has been about as conclusive as a snake swollowing its own tail while growing at a similar rate of consumption.

[final reclaimer]

umm, sload, in a sick way you just made a lot of sense. teach me in your ways.

[El Scumbago]

Ladies & Gentlemen, your eminence mr. Sload sir, you may now take your Chewbacca and leave the scene for your point is made, though not entirely accepted. Ok, seriously now; i agree with both Sload and Mountanious that rescaling Cyrodiil might be impossible/impractical/improper for any reason. I also do agree that by the laws of possibilities and the quantic theory, all that has been posted thus far may be totally senseless. Yet, as already been said, this thread is about how could it be done, if attempted at all. There are people who are willing to give it a shot, there are people who believe it is worth a shot, and there are people who would love to shoot all those that would like to give it a shot. These last ones though should leave the others to discuss this subject, since they do not bother or disturb anyone.

I'm not being aggressive or anything I'm only saying you're right to want your Cyrodiil untoutched, and we're right to want our Cyrodiil...touched. Whether it will ever happen is a totally different discussion (which is being done right here!).

-El Scumbago, defending the right to rescale-

[Morden]

Actually its being discussed here:

[url]http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/thread.php?postid=21912#post21912[/url]

And here:

[url]http://www.forumplanet.com/planetelderscrolls/topic.asp?fid=16701&tid=1877294[/url]


This thread is no longer about Cyrodil. This thread was over by the 8th post, and its my fault for not locking it, but I figured every modder here knew the scale issues are not currently up for debate... seeing as how many of you still lack the grace to do so in public.


*Locked*