Interested in Modelling?

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:58 pm

I'm curious as to how many people are interested in modelling, or atleast interested in learning? There are very powerful, and 100% free, tools out there for you to use, most notably Blender 3d:

http://blender.org/cms/Home.2.0.html

Aside from being free, you can do anything you need, such as normal maps, and exporting to a variety of formats including .3ds and .nif. There is also excellent community support, with Wikis, tutorials, documentation, and user-made plugins. The interface can seem intimidating at first, but it is clearly documented, and once you learn the hot keys you'll be on your way.

The system requirements are quite low. Rendering a full color screenshot of your work will take more time, but the actual modelling will work well on old systems. All it requires is a video card capable of OpenGL. I used to run Blender on my old P3 733, 384MB RAM, GeForce 32MB, and it ran fine, I actually even did some rendering on it.

If you have any interest in art I recommend you explore modelling. It really is an extension of drawing and creating concepts. Its like having digital clay. And if you have talent with sketching and hand drawing you'll find that you'll pick it up very quickly, as all the fundementals of proportion, detail, and movement apply. Even if you don't have any particular interest in hand drawing, you can still try modelling other people's concepts. Take this screenshot for example:

[url=http://img67.imageshack.us/my.php?image=blenderbackground50tz.jpg][img]http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/1733/blenderbackground50tz.th.jpg[/img][/url]

I'm using one of lutemoth's concepts as a guide for making a 3d model, and the better a concept is presented, the less the modeller has to rely on their own artistic talent.

By the reaction in this thread I'll gauge if their is enough interest for me to make up a resource thread. I'll also decide if there's enough interest for me to build tutorials on the basic techniques I use while modelling.

Resadyn · Post by **Resadyn** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:14 pm

I'd be interested in doing this. I have used blender, but i have really almost no talent. The resource thread would help lots.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:18 pm

I have some interest in modeling, I just dont think I'm very good at it. I've gotten some good results before, and I do have access to some software. However, I find it very hard to be as paced and methodical as one has to be to be good at it. When I model I just do things that look right to me (the same way I draw and compose). But in modeling, that leaves me with problems (extra verticies, strange wholes and inconsistant results). I suppose I could learn if I realy tried. But, I think I already spend way to much of my free time as it is...

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:19 pm

i want to know what the heck a normal map is and how to make it... but i dought that my extremly limited artistic talent will lend itself to modeling

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:30 pm

You'd be suprised. Its really not that difficult. Obivously you can't load up the program and hope to model a person. You aim for small things... like a bottle, and some candle sticks... and eventually you gain the skills to move on to more complex models. Every single person on these forums is capable of modelling basic objects, regardless of your ability to draw... but those with the art skills already will have an easier time with things such as creatures or armor.

kapuhy · Post by **kapuhy** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:36 pm

I intend to learn modelling during my summer holidays, when I'll have a bit more time and, hopefully, a new computer (my current one is slower that ill turtle). Until then, I'm sticking with TESCS only.

knightmare · Post by **knightmare** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:09 pm

Lady Nerevar wrote:i want to know what the heck a normal map is and how to make it... but i dought that my extremly limited artistic talent will lend itself to modeling

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_mapping

wikipedia is as much of a friend as google

i think this is a great idea for people interested in art and 3d modeling. even though i myself wouldnt use it (im not trying to boast here

) it would be great to get people into modeling and to start helping to model for TR

also if people want i could make a resource thread on 3dsmax, with tutorials plugins and where to get it cheap

(got mine for a bit over $600 for an earlier version with a student discount) ect.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:21 pm

Though for the hobby modder who wants to learn, $600 can't be justified. I've gone back to Blender in the hopes of learning more about it, so that I can help others. I'm delighted to see that in the newer versions they've adopted a lot of the interface I've been using in Softimage XSI. It makes blender so much easier then it used to be...especially for those who want to learn.

Obviously 3ds Max is more widely used among professionals then Blender, but don't underesitmate it. The open source nature has resulted in a pretty powerful program that keeps growing.

And a 3ds max thread would be great.

ShoGun · Post by **ShoGun** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:47 pm

I tried to use blender before, but I couldnt find any tutorials or guide hehe, and yes it is a very intimidating interface

I think I'm gonna download it again hehe

knightmare · Post by **knightmare** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:56 pm

if you think blender is an intimidating interface, go download a 3dsmax or maya trial and then go back to using blender

ShoGun · Post by **ShoGun** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:03 pm

Hehe I already have 3dsmax

And the controlls and everything in blender is.. wierd ^^

knightmare · Post by **knightmare** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:06 pm

well if you are already used to 3dsmax dont get started with blender. 3dsmax takes a bit longer to understand all its features for modeling, but if you get used to it, its a better tool.

ShoGun · Post by **ShoGun** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:09 pm

Ok, I have "mostly" used Milkshape3d hehe

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:25 pm

I used milkshape for a while.. it was probably the most akward interface i've used. If you have 3dsMax available then go for it. Look up some online tutorials.

ShoGun · Post by **ShoGun** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:52 pm

Hehe not now, soon maybe

Right now I'm brushing up on my interior cell crafting in Oblivion

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:59 pm

ShoGun wrote:Ok, I have "mostly" used Milkshape3d hehe

If you have Max, why even glance at Milkshape? And Morden, I'm interested.

(Never would've guessed...) Maybe I could even help out a bit, if people need to see a tutorial for a specific concept or something. Oh, and does G-max have the .Nif exporting ability? I loved using that interface, it gets you prepared for the more complicated 3ds, and it's made by Discreet.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 8:10 pm

Gmax has no .nif exporting plugins unfortunately.

ShoGun · Post by **ShoGun** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:48 pm

My autodesk 3ds max didn't function properly since the cd is broken, so blender3d it is

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:54 am

Morden, you mention nif in your initial post. I'm interested to know if you've successfully exported a model from Blender to Oblivion's NIF format and gotten it to work in the CS?

My only avenue at the moment is the Civ4 exporter for 3D Studio Max (http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=1375). It does get the models into the game... without collision, and with color maps only, but still. Earlier tonight I modelled a bridge and set it up in the CS using lots of collision box meshes (they come with the game) and can't wait to test it out.

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:58 am

I'm glad my interests sparked a new thread with positive feedback. And of course, I'm interested

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:25 am

I haven't tried exporting meshes to Oblivion yet. The .nif exporter I was referring to is for Morrowind, and I honestly haven't checked to see if there is a Civ4 exporter script for blender. I haven't got Oblivion yet, I'm sort of on the road, three time zones away from my own computer

However, I follow the NIFtools forums daily, and i'm interested in their attempts to get weapons into Oblivion, since they don't use havoc data for actual use. While you have to use a container to get them into your inventory, they actually work when swinging (so I read). I believe the collision box thing has been tested, and it didn't work

, but i'm now curious how it turns out for you.

New plants are an option of course, since they don't require collision, but without speedtree, it's all static placing isn't it?

Regardless of getting an exporter anytime soon, I think i'll continue to model. I have faith in the community to put one out sometime

The programmers at niftools seem to have a thing for blender's python script, so I expect OB's exporter to reach blender someday, but if it doesn't i'll be stuck with the .3ds format export... or I learn to use Max 7.. which I have but can't use yet.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:29 am

I took a course in 3dsmax so you can always ask me any questions, no matter how small or seemingly dumb they are, and I'll do my absolute best to answer them. Or maybe I'll go down there, Morden (they closed the local Joey's Only so the best Calamari is now in your hometown!)

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:35 am

Never had the calamari at Joey's in CR, though I worked with the former head chef when I was at the Riptide Pub. Well.. now i'll have to try when I come back in a month or so!

*cough* Yes.. modelling...3ds Max.. good good.

The_Warder · Post by **The_Warder** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:22 am

Blender is a powerful program if you get over some things.

I know nothing of an importer in the works for oblivion but I hope someone will make one. Anyone who is interested in blender should see some of these tutorials:
http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Tutorials/Links

If you have any question I am willing to answer them when I am online.

Morden I would love a thread about modeling techniques.

Also I am running blender on a 3 year old pc.
specs: 256 Ram
P4 2.4ghz
fx 5200 128mb

The graphics card used to be a geforce 2 64mb card.

Blender has ran very well for the most part even on these specs, so most should have no problem with blender.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:48 am

I have an interest in modelling, but IÃ‚Â´m a little frustrated with it because itÃ‚Â´s so time consuming.

IÃ‚Â´ve worked professionally with 3D max on a couple of advertisments. I did modelling an animations, but IÃ‚Â´ve got no knowledge of shaders, normalmapping, unwrapping or rigging. That was the job of someone else.

Anyway if you need something done like a building or other statics I can help out (if you give me some tips on shaders, or someone else could take care of it). IÃ‚Â´d like to focus on the concept art though.

Massalinie · Post by **Massalinie** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:25 pm

i have been interested in modelling for quite some time now, and i started learning from the tutorials available with g-max, but i never got very far because when I started I was going to school and had limited time on my hands, but if you're starting up a sort of system with it, consider me in!

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:45 am

Morden wrote:I haven't tried exporting meshes to Oblivion yet. The .nif exporter I was referring to is for Morrowind, and I honestly haven't checked to see if there is a Civ4 exporter script for blender. I haven't got Oblivion yet, I'm sort of on the road, three time zones away from my own computer However, I follow the NIFtools forums daily, and i'm interested in their attempts to get weapons into Oblivion, since they don't use havoc data for actual use. While you have to use a container to get them into your inventory, they actually work when swinging (so I read). I believe the collision box thing has been tested, and it didn't work , but i'm now curious how it turns out for you.

New plants are an option of course, since they don't require collision, but without speedtree, it's all static placing isn't it?

Regardless of getting an exporter anytime soon, I think i'll continue to model. I have faith in the community to put one out sometime The programmers at niftools seem to have a thing for blender's python script, so I expect OB's exporter to reach blender someday, but if it doesn't i'll be stuck with the .3ds format export... or I learn to use Max 7.. which I have but can't use yet.

Aah, kk.

I've just released "Alpha 02" of Reich Parkeep, which you guys might find interesting to check out.
http://www.silgrad.com/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=1387&sid=

Particularly check out the bridge I modelled and exported from Max 8 with the Civ4 exporter. The bridge doesn't have collision... but I use a bunch of collision boxes from the CS to let the player walk on it anyway.

It needs some fine-tuning because the collision boxes are cumbersome, but I really think it can work. At least until I can get my hands on a proper exporter.

If the models look bland it's because the exporter doesn't seem to be able to handle bump and specular mapping.

Textures are a far worse problem though. The only way I've managed to succeed in implementing new textures is by baking them into the meshes, making the extracted mod *huge* ...like 80+ mb. It compresses to just over 5mb though, which is a relief.

I'll be sure to investigate the developments on NIFtools, thanks for the tip.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:38 pm

Great find Razorwing.

I'm glad to see that worked out for you. Being able to walk on it is certainly better than i've seen anyone do so far. What about placing collision boxes around the entire mesh, to stop people from walking through the sides of the bridge?

Razorwing · Post by **Razorwing** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:50 am

Morden wrote:Great find Razorwing. I'm glad to see that worked out for you. Being able to walk on it is certainly better than i've seen anyone do so far. What about placing collision boxes around the entire mesh, to stop people from walking through the sides of the bridge?

Sorry for the late reply. That's definitely something I'm going to have in the next alpha.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:40 pm

A tutorial for putting a usable weapon into Oblivion has appeared on ESF.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=360277

This is the custom sword made by the tutorial creator:
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v665/EdgeOfForever/?action=view&current=ScreenShot7.jpg

He also provides information on the proper settings and export options to use when working from Blender.

If you'd like to try modelling a weapon in blender you can try this great tutorial. It will also introduce you to the hotkey system in blender which is excellent.

Using Blender to Make Game Models Part 1:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/art/features/blender1/default.asp

Using Blender to Make Game Models Part 2:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/art/features/blender2/default.asp

Here's another linke, with a variety of tutorial on pretty much anything related to the art side of game dev. The tutorials i looked at were quality.

http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=257345

ShoGun · Post by **ShoGun** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:23 pm

All of the www.gamedev.net sites are down =/

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:33 pm

Update:

Much of learning Blender requires memorizing the hotkeys and what they do. It's harder to learn then most interfaces, but it pays off in better workflow.

Hot Key Reference list:
http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Reference/HK/All

Hot Key Map:
http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Reference/Hotkey_Map

Also, here's a detailed tutorial with pictures) on building proper Normal, Specular, and Color maps for Oblivion:

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=376369

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:47 pm

I'm collecting information here. Eventually it will be a FAQ in the first post. Today I looked into Parallax mapping. It's mostly used in architecture as it gives surfaces depth by taking information from a greyscale heightmap.

Here is the wiki on Parallax maps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax_mapping

Basically, Parallax Mapping involves taking your Diffuse Map (color map) and making a grey scale heightmap out of it. You can easily convert it to black and white using any photo program. Next, you convert one version of the heightmap into your normal map, and paste another copy of the heightmap into your Alpha channel. So what you're left with is a Normal Map which has a greyscale heightmap as its alpha channel.

In contrast, weapons and other items use Normal Maps with a greyscale Specular map in their alpha channel. The Specular Map gives the appearance on of shinyness and highlights to a surface. The white in the greyscale texture is shiny,a nd the dark spots are dull. A brick wall doesn't need to be shiny so a Parallax map is best.

Here is a step-by-step tutorial on creating a Parallax Map.

http://reality.artificialstudios.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/BumpMapping

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:18 am

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=399275&hl=

EdgeOfForever's method (the one I have used for the dagger and mace so far) also works for armor. It certainly opens up a lot of possibilities.

ENIGMA* · Post by ENIGMA* » Mon May 01, 2006 5:30 pm

i don think i like blender at all....

Blender wants to blend it's windows into one very colorful picture but it makes for a pain to read anything and it is hurting my eyes....

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Mon May 01, 2006 6:05 pm

I've never used Blender but I'm sure that all 3d modelling programs are much the same: Far too easy to get in over your head and wind up with a massive headache, and the only thing to show for it being a teapot.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon May 01, 2006 6:13 pm

i don think i like blender at all....

Blender is not for weak. You have to actually spend a lot of time with it to realise its hotkey interface potential.+

And everything is pretty customizable... so if it doesn't suit you... change it. Have you tried splitting up the view ports?

pseudoscorpion · Post by **pseudoscorpion** » Mon May 01, 2006 7:58 pm

I did this and that on blender for other game's mods, but I was never able to do anything pretty with less than a centillion quintillions googols of polygons. And b'sides bump mapping was allways too weird for me to do & there were sometimes a few strange anomalias on the models. Indeed, blender is easy, indeed, 'ts like clay & its better then Maya, Milkshape & nything else startin' with "M" imho. Not hard at all. You just have to learn two or three random useful functions and then you can do anything you like with them. BTW, nyone knows how to make YAFRAY work if yera complete fool? & how to make pictures appear on the work desk as in the screenshot morden gave?

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:15 pm

People focus on the differences so much. Frankly I have used 3ds, Maya, and Blender. Theyre pretty much the same. They just have slighly different ways of doing things: but they do the same things.

As for blender. I dont know why everyone is always harping on the hotkeys: Theyre helpful, but you can work without them. The program has just as many buttons as any other.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Mon May 01, 2006 10:19 pm

In the latest build that came out around the end of 2005, I think... they added a lot of the current mouse GUI interface. In particular the tranformation tools/arrows that most 3d programs have to rotate, scale, move and select. Before you only had the hotkeys. Its much more streamlined now then when I first learned a couple years ago.