Orsinium- relations with others and internally

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:56 am

okie dokie, so Orsinium (or the nova orsinium) is the orkish city-state in High Rock, with territory mostly in the Wrothgarian Mts. and controlling the Bjoulsae River.
Apparently the Orkish state is a haven for goblins, ogres, and other beast-folk who find refuge in the Wrothgarian Mts. and many were driven here when displaced by Mer and Men.
I have heard that there is internal conflict in Nova Orsinium. Apparently, Gortwog, in order to make the Orkish state more acceptable to the Empire, has tried to separate Trinimac and Malacath in religion and is trying to have the orcs worship Trinimac the Aedra instead of Malacath the Daedra. Well as we know this guy could be one and the same....

anyhow, given that...
what are Orsinium's relations with the rest of High Rock? (I heard they are allied to Wayrest)
what are Orsinium's relations with the states in Hammerfell?
what are Orsinium's relations with the holds in Skyrim?
and finally, how is Orsinium faring in itself with all the different tribes and races?

my guess is that the complex tribal relations within are all dominated by the Orc (orsimer) who defend the beast-folk and have forged a nation in the inhospitable land.
also, I think years of war have brought some allies to Orsinium but also many more enemies. But I think the short time of peace has made it somewhat more acceptable to the surrounding states who probably still watch it cautiously.

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:35 am

Trinimac was/is not an Aedra, but was/is a champion of the Aldmeri Pantheon, who was eaten by the Daedra Prince Boethiah (because he tried to oppose the Chimer migration), he then turned into Malacath (or Mauloch) who is neither mortal or Daedra but another entity that has its own plane of oblivion he is treated by most mortals (except Orcs) as a daedra but is not by the other Princes of Oblivion.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:42 am

I personally consider Orsinium a state unto itself. It governs itself, and has fairly expansive territory (most of the Wrothgarian Mountains), the only thing that keeps it from being a province is its small size and the emperor's dislike or orcs: he kept it officially a client kingdom of High Rock. While just part of High Rock de jure, its pretty much a de facto power unto itself. Its pretty much like those countries in Africa which despite having an established economy, a fair government, a currency, a flag, a national anthem, peace and generally what we want most countries to have, are not recognised by other states and appear on no maps.

Orcs have attacked and pillaged all over the Iliac Bay for centuries, so there is bound to be some resentment. However, pretty much all the races have harried their neighbours and get on fine these days, so such wounds will have probabl healed. I think the Redguard will respect and honour the Orcs: they are great warriors, and if you read "How Orsinium Passed to the Orcs" you will see that they have a strong sense of honour too (at least, the more intelligent ones do). I think the culture would be quite stratified. There would be the intelligent, cultured upper classes who have adopted Imperial conventions. There would also be the primitive orcs who would be little more than big gobins. I think the King would be trying to convert all the primitive orcs to modern standards of conduct. He would probably also keep quite a tight rein on the nastier elements so as not to anger neighbouring territories. I think the primitive orcs wouldnt mind this, since it is in their best interests.

I wouldnt say that they follow the Empire's concept of Malacath. They follow 'Malauch', which is of course the same as Malacath, with the difference that they probably dont consider him a Daedra. Its probably pretty much like how a tribal religeon will worship a God of the Underworld, who a Christian would consider to be the Devil. There would be cultist elements, do doubt, but I think they would know the distinction between Malauch and the other Daedra.

Varieties of Faith in the Empire wrote: Mauloch (Malacath): An Orcish god, Mauloch troubled the heirs of King Harald for a long time. Fled east after his defeat at the Battle of Dragon Wall, ca. 1E660. His rage was said to fill the sky with his sulphurous hatred, later called the "Year of Winter in Summer".

Varieties of Faith in the Empire wrote: Malacath (God of Curses): Malacath is the reanimated dung that was Trinimac. A somewhat weak but vengeful Daedra, the Dark Elves say he is also Malak, the god-king of the orcs. He always tests the Dunmer for physical weakness.

Its also worth noting that they are not related to goblins. Goblins were around before the Orcs were changed to be Orcs, and so they are only related in that both races have been ostracised from society.[/quote]

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:49 am

Orsinium is allied to Wayrest, and Gortwog and Queen <insert name here> are personal friends. Orsinium is not friendly with Daggerfall, and I'm guessing would also face hostility from northern High Rock statelets.

Gortwog has tried to make Orsinium a separate province from High Rock, but the Elder Council has repeatedly refused the request. They have made a half measure by giving him some sort of dignity title. Orsinium was a province of the first empire, but Tiber Septim hated Orcs therefore he abolished the province. Orsinium itself spans into northern Hammerfell slightly also.

The Redguards, both Crown and Forebear, hate the Orcs. Orsinium is a rival of Sentinel, and Crowns pretty much dominate all of northern and western Hammerfell (except Sentinel) and thus have suffered in wars against Orcs in times past. The Redguards aren't ones to drop a grudge.

The Nords are not too fond of the Orcs either from my understanding. However, alliances between Orcs and Nords are common, like the present one in which they are invading Morrowind. I can't speak anything of the successfulness of such alliances (in fact the only other one I can think of ended in a humiliating defeat for Skyrim and the Orcs)

Lastly, I don't think things are too good in Orsinium. Gortwog certainly has enemies, and attempts to separate Malacath from Trinimac (if true) are bound to end in complete and utter disaster for him. You just know it.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:14 am

I dont think that he needs to seperate Malacath from Mauloch in the eyes of his people: I would bet that they personally dont consider him evil. After all, hes not a daedra anyway.

What people nearby think of them depends on how we choose to portray their behaviour. If they have just carried on fighting (despite no need to) then people will hate them...but the empire would have stepped in anyway to stop this kind of behaviour. If they are trying to make economic agreements (they have skills in armor making, so that would make for good trading) then they might get along.

I think the Redguards might not like the Orcs but they would definitely respect them. They would be a 'worthy enemy'.

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:29 am

1. relations with others
- alright, so Orsinium has the grudging respect of its neighbors
- the alliance with Wayrest (and control of Bjoulsae R.)
- Orcs & Nords occasionally ally to fight an enemy, I haven't found any example of a time where it has worked out
- Gortowg wants to make Osinium a province & more acceptable to the Empire
2. internal relations
- Gortwog's attempt to separate Trinimac and Malacath and to have orcs worship Trinimac; most orcs don't like it

but we still don't know much about relations with beast-folk in the Orc kingdom
lets research that... also can anyone find if there are any comments in TES4 Oblivion's dialogue?

Assassinace · Post by **Assassinace** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:21 pm

Well it seems that the "Capitol" that is besically a fortified shantytown from the description in the pocket guide shows centaur, goblins, and orcs living together in seperate slums (written by non beastfolk so truth may very). But at the very least it shows that like the various races in the empire the beastfolk can get along and live together but have strained relations.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:34 pm

Well the PGE is full of propaganda: I bet the keep is actually fairly grand, and that there are very civilised areas, but that the bulk of the city is temporary shacks. Its probably that the more primitive orcs and beastfolk dont like to stay in cities too long and are probably semi-nomadic. While out hunting for a month they would essentially 'camp out', and when returning to the city they would build a hut or shanty.

I think there would also be encampments of primitive citizens around the area, where they have just sorta set up more permentant camps around, say, a water source. On the flipside, civilised orcs who dont like the city will have set up villages.

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:36 pm

so it is very possible there are small orcish and goblin settlements around but aren't mapped since they aren't powerfu city-states, rather towns under the rule of Orsinium

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:44 pm

I think assuming that they all live in the city of Orsinium when they have all that territory would be stupid. I also think that assuming all orcs, even civilised ones, would want to live in cities is wrong.

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:11 pm

Quite alot of Orcs would be hearders so they wouldn't live in Orsinuim, but in small nomadic yurts littered around the Mountain range.

Also I did find some lore in dialouge by accident in-game, I found an Orcish adventurer in a Ayleid Ruin who said that Gortwog wants Adventurers to find Orsinuim riches to make it more well known, he then says if he does it will make Gortwog very happy, or something like that.

Jale: He is not trying to seperate Malacath from Mauloch, But Trinimac from Mauloch because he beleives that Trinimac still lives on.

Most of Orsinuim will be in poverty because of the lack of jobs food and water because most of the population of Orcs on Tamriel live in it.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:10 pm

Umm no, I cant find any evidence that Trinimac is believed to still be around by the Orcs.

Again, I refer you to 'Varieties of Faith in the Empire'...

Mauloch is described as 'an orcish god'.
'The Dark Elves say [Malacath] is also Malak, the god-king of the Orcs' (Malak sounds like a transliteration of Mauloch from Orcish to Dunmer)

While Trinimac 'vanishes from the mythic stage'.

Doesnt sound like hes around to be followed!

Furthermore in 'The True Nature of Orcs'...

When Trinimac was eaten by the Daedroth Prince Boethiah, and transformed in that foul god's insides, the Orcs were transformed as well. The ancient name for the Orcs is 'Orsimer,' which means 'The Pariah Folk.' They now follow Malauch, the remains of Trinimac.

Another spelling of Mauloch I guess. I would say that Mauloch is Trinimac in the same way that the Dunmer are the Chimer...they used to be, and have changed, but are still essentially the same. Malacath on the other hand is the evil representation of the same concept. Daedra arent really evil anyway, they just happen to upset mortals sometimes.

No evidence that anyone thinks Trinimac is still around (except maybe the Altmer, since he is listed as being in thier pantheon).

CleverClothe · Post by **CleverClothe** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:44 am

Jale wrote: Another spelling of Mauloch I guess. I would say that Mauloch is Trinimac in the same way that the Dunmer are the Chimer...they used to be, and have changed, but are still essentially the same. Malacath on the other hand is the evil representation of the same concept. Daedra arent really evil anyway, they just happen to upset mortals sometimes.

No evidence that anyone thinks Trinimac is still around (except maybe the Altmer, since he is listed as being in thier pantheon).

PGE 3rd Edition, pg 100 wrote: The only troubling sign for Orsinium is a religious conflict that has brewed over the last ten years. Traditionally, the Orcs have worshipped the Daedra Malacath (Mauloch) as their patron deity. Gortwog, however, has established a new priesthood devoted to the worship of Trinimac, the ancient hero of the Orcs, who legend has it was devoured by Boethia and became the Daedra Malacath. The Orc King's belief that Trinimac still lives and that Malacath is a separate entity, a demon whose aim was to keep the Orsimer pariah folk forever, is the official position of the shaman priests of Orsinium. A minority of traditionalists within the territory, and the majority of Orcs without, view this as heresy. There is fear eve among those who support Gortwog and Orsinium that turning their back on the Daedric Prince of the Bloody Oath is dangerous policy indeed.

I think that is what The Old Ye Bard is refering to.

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:47 am

Jale: You obviously haven't read the pocket guide to the Empire from the colector's edition of Oblivion, I sugest you read it.

Oh and they mainly survive off Giant Shaggy Alpine Centepedes as these are the only herd animal that live there, they have no official name.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:58 am

Bah :p missed that bit.

It is the only occurance of that! Everywhere else says they fllow mauloch! My bad...

So I guess while the upper classes would follow Trinimac, quite a few would follow 'Mauloch' and then the nastier element would worship Malacath.

CleverClothe · Post by **CleverClothe** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:34 pm

Jale wrote:Bah :p missed that bit.

It is the only occurance of that! Everywhere else says they fllow mauloch! My bad...

So I guess while the upper classes would follow Trinimac, quite a few would follow 'Mauloch' and then the nastier element would worship Malacath.

Yup. They DO follow Malacath/Mauloch, but Gortwog is trying to change that.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:46 pm

And for those of you who don't know, 'pariah' means outcast.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 11:03 pm

The Old Ye Bard wrote: They mainly survive off Giant Shaggy Alpine Centepedes as these are the only herd animal that live there, they have no official name.

Im not sure if they are the only herd animals that live there.

These Orcish tribes chose an uninhabited mountain region near Old H'roldan in High Rock, for their people were (and most still are) dependent on a rare shaggy giant centipede herdbeast that can live only at high altitudes on alpine and sub-alpine forage.

Sure, it means that the centipedes are around a lot, but only because its their ideal habitat. You would probably also get things like yaks, sheep and goats.

I think there would be indigenous mammals around, unless the introduction of the centipedes drove them out. They would be kept for milk, probably...centipedes have no nipples!

The Old Ye Bard · Post by **The Old Ye Bard** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:16 am

Jale wrote:Bah :p missed that bit.

It is the only occurance of that! Everywhere else says they fllow mauloch! My bad...

So I guess while the upper classes would follow Trinimac, quite a few would follow 'Mauloch' and then the nastier element would worship Malacath.

Jale there is no differnce between Mauloch and Malacath the orcs treat them exactly the same.
Oh and other animals would live there such as mountain goats and stuff but I'm pretty sure that cetepedes are the only herd beast (or they live in larger herds then sheep, etc so are more worth while to raise).

Edit: Mauloch/Malacath isn't evil anyway he is just seen as a daedra and an outcast by the ignorant(every race except the orcs).

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:50 am

See I believe there is a distinction. Even if the orcs dont make it, others do. If there was no distinction, books from other areas would not even make the distinction and just say 'the orcs worship malacath'. I think that most people will say that the orcs worship mauloch, and those poor stupid orcs are really worshipping Malacath. Poor, unenlightened fools being tricked into daedra worship, eh?

Also I think that orcish worship of Mauloch would be very very different from normal worship of Malacath. Malacath worship is probably like most daedra worship: full of evil little rituals and lots of trafficking with daeda. Mauloch worship is probably more conventional. Thats why I make the distinction. They all

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:30 am

on the Malacath - Mauloch
I think we can look to the Daedric Shrines in Morrowind... the ones inhabited by Orcs (Malacath) probably follow their god like a god, but the Dunmer (or other) followers of Malacath probably do things for him and get rewards and bargain with the Prince with nasty things like souls, etc.

so I think they are worshipped differently. Those who are not of the Orcish religion follow him as a Daedric Prince. Those who do follow the orc religion follow him like the supreme god, champion of the orcish people, as well as the patron of the outcast (in a larger sense of Tamriel, outcast would mean orcs and beast-folk)

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:50 am

Malacath seems the less conventional of all the Daedra lords. He seems to care deeply for his followers, unlike many other Daedric lords such as Mehrunes Dagon or Sheogorath (to name but a few). He also seems to care for other beings treated as second class citizens, such as ogres and goblins, and people outcast from mainstream society. Not even Azura does that. Consider that his quest in Oblivion sends the PC out to free enslaved ogres. He also seems to hate frauds, like in Morrowind where he sends the PC out to kill the descendant of a fake elven hero.

I think worship when it comes to Malacath is the most personal. His true worshippers, mainly Orcs, have what I think is a closer connection and he generally helps them out. On the other hand people who aren't his true worshippers, such as glory-seeking adventurers, have to treat him as any other Daedric Lord if they want some special treatment.

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:52 am

which means they have to do some nasty bargaining... cause he has the sphere of oaths and curses...

yes it does seem like Malacath takes good care of his folks... kinda like Sheogorad, but Sheogorad isn't benevolent... he just makes sure they stay insane and safe... maybe that's why the Orcs have such a connection withtheir god, some entity who actually helps them as opposed to the legendary Trinimac whos story seems to make the orcish race look like an accident, or something not-meant-to-be, something defiled or transformed...
the old orc ways make them seem like that is the way they are and should be and should be proud of....

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:25 pm

[img]http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/9904/iliacbay4331tj.gif[/img]
can you agree to this map made by Marauth AlaÃƒÂ-RÃƒÂ¡n? It looks right to me...

I am planning an Orsinium mod after Vvardenfell, I do not know what you guys' plans are for the Orsinium control of the Bjoulsae and portions of the Dragontail Mts. but I guess it's no tthe point...

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:44 pm

Cuts a bit too far West for my liking. Also the southern bit should probably be pushed back from the road a little.

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:31 am

yeah, probably just along the river but not actually so far penetrating into hammerfell?

Dr.zombie · Post by **Dr.zombie** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:01 am

Malauch has a short temper and is a bit vengeful but at least he has a no bulls**t polacy and seems to treat his true worshipers well, deep down inside heÃ‚Â´s probably a very nice.....dead...ehh..aedr, no...whatever he is.

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:18 am

I would think some of the noble warrior-god is still isnide this Prince of curses & oaths and polluter of bloodlines...
he is liek the orcs, honorable, mean, a fighter, cursed, and no bullsh*t

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:07 pm

I agree with Jale... also, i think that sjyrim ocupies alot less of HR then the map shows (im not sure however, since my studies of the war are mostly about HF) imho, ehena should be the only city that is under skyrim teritory (see PGE3, skyrim section)

KuKulzA · Post by **KuKulzA** » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:14 pm

thanks

Dr.zombie · Post by **Dr.zombie** » Thu May 04, 2006 11:01 pm

IÃ‚Â´m quite sure that Gortowg will be overthrwon or killed my Malak worshippers unhappy with his ideas.