Approved guilds

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu May 04, 2006 5:15 am

Yeah, I was always disastisfied with the fact that you only used the arena pit to fight masters of a faction.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu May 04, 2006 6:54 pm

A simple work-around to allow guildmasters to feel like their power has some influence in other places would be to have, for example, the Fighters Guild Head allowing you use of all facilities like a high ranking member, and then rather than starting at the very bottom rung of the ladder, you start your quests at rank 2 or 3, thus skipping any sort of application test or errand-like duties.

On the topic of the main quest, considering the general hoo-haa around whether or not mannimarco is still a god, whether he was an imposter, whether hes dead, whether hes a clone, whatever...it would not be a good idea to base the main quest on him. Keep the necromancers, unjoinable, and very...VERY mysterious. We dont want to state that he is dead or alive, to avoid upsetting future plots (he might come back) or to peeve off people who still think that wasnt really him. Its just more comfortable for everyone this way.

A form of rebellion is a good idea for a main quest, since the emperor dies right at the beginning of the game, so the player need not finish the MQ beforehand.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Thu May 04, 2006 8:11 pm

The example I gave with the necromancers was just a "Completely, 100% seperate from Cyrodiil" quest, not a serious one (though how cool would it be to revive one of the greatest sword masters in the world?)

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Thu May 04, 2006 8:38 pm

Daedric shrines: they should probably be there. Vvardenfell had them, yet there are others built in Cyrodiil. We can presume they're in every region.

However, it's one game, one world. Who is to say Azura would have a different mission to give you just because you're in Hammerfell?

I'd say the shrine should just have the same script as their cyrodiilic equivalent. That way, if you haven't talked to them in Cyrodiil, and find one in Hammerfell, it would work (and send you to the Imperial Province to do the quest).

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:31 am

Sure, that would remove the need to find more artifacts, but its a bit boring. I would much rather have them offering you new items. Perhaps ones which disappear in the OB quests, like the necromancers amulet if you do the MG.

"Come to me when you are the greatest sorceror of tamriel"

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri May 05, 2006 3:05 pm

Jale wrote:A simple work-around to allow guildmasters to feel like their power has some influence in other places would be to have, for example, the Fighters Guild Head allowing you use of all facilities like a high ranking member, and then rather than starting at the very bottom rung of the ladder, you start your quests at rank 2 or 3, thus skipping any sort of application test or errand-like duties.

On the topic of the main quest, considering the general hoo-haa around whether or not mannimarco is still a god, whether he was an imposter, whether hes dead, whether hes a clone, whatever...it would not be a good idea to base the main quest on him. Keep the necromancers, unjoinable, and very...VERY mysterious. We dont want to state that he is dead or alive, to avoid upsetting future plots (he might come back) or to peeve off people who still think that wasnt really him. Its just more comfortable for everyone this way.

A form of rebellion is a good idea for a main quest, since the emperor dies right at the beginning of the game, so the player need not finish the MQ beforehand.

Yes, that is something to be considered. Being at the bottom level ranks takes a different sort of skill then the leadership ranks, yet you can go to the top with your combat strengths. In the US militias, an enlisted member can only get so far, to some degree of master sergeant, unless they go to officer candidate school, or with the ROTC, you can start out of college at the officer candidate school. It would be interesting if we could create our factions in such a way that it actually meant something to be in a leadership position. With my current morrowind character, I'm Knight of the Imperial Dragon, Archmagister of House Telvanni, Arch-Mage of the Mages Guild, Patriarch of the temple, Primate of the cult, Nerevarine, Hortator(or however that's spelled), and I'm going to work my way up the fighter's guild soon. I have a riddiculous amount of positions, and no obligations or privileges from them. The most I get for my accomplishments is, when I click advancement they say, "Am I ready for the next rank?"

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri May 05, 2006 6:36 pm

I agree with Jale, though I still will suggest new characters be used.

Dr.zombie · Post by **Dr.zombie** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:25 pm

Gez wrote:.

However, it's one game, one world. Who is to say Azura would have a different mission to give you just because you're in Hammerfell?

Maybe not Azura herself but her followers could give you a mission.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:54 pm

Sload wrote:I agree with Jale, though I still will suggest new characters be used.

Of course to get the most from the mod, one should start a new character, but I think this would be the way to please everyone. There perhaps should be an initial master quest like 'oh thank god YOU are here, i need help with so-and-so', cue nice quest, followed by 'thank you archmage. Whats that? You wish to join the Mages Guild in Hammerfell? Why of course, but I would be forced to insist you follow the normal channels. How about you submit work as a Journeyman?'

Thus skipping the associate and apprentice ranks. I have always viewed Journeyman as the sort of 'prove you are worthy' rank, after the initiation of associate and the learning of apprentice.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri May 05, 2006 7:56 pm

These would be misc quests and not what this thread is for. However, the fact that there are Daedric shrines in Morrowind and Cyrodiil does not mean that there are Daedric shrines in Hammerfell. It reminds me of cum hoc ergo propter hoc and post hoc ergo propter hoc, but it isn't quite the same thing. Incorrect deductive reasoning, basically "This is true in these places, therefore it is true everywhere." "These people love brussel sprouts, therefore all people love brussel sprouts."

I'd be much more interested in serving the Yoku gods or the worshippers of the Yoku gods.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Fri May 05, 2006 8:04 pm

Sload wrote:I'd be much more interested in serving the Yoku gods or the worshippers of the Yoku gods.

But aren't the Yoku gods just the Aedra?
As in, they're just different depictions of the same cosmin force. The Aedra don't really care about mortals anyway, IMO.
Working for Yoku cults would be good, though.

Question: Are the Aedra actual beings, or concepts/forces? Is there any difference between the different pantheaons, or are they just ideas projected by the believers?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri May 05, 2006 8:26 pm

We don't really know, but yes, many of them are based on the aedra (Morwha is Mara, Sep is Lorkhan, I believe Tall Papa is Akatosh). There are some that aren't, though, it'd be better to have a cultist give the quest through divine inspiration or just because.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri May 05, 2006 9:56 pm

From what I have gleaned from books and so forth, the Yoku gods are part aedra ones, part deified heros and then some other random things chucked in.

Satakal - Akatosh

Sep - Lhorkan

Tall Papa/Ruptga - A chief of gods, Essentially Padomay

Morhwa - Fertility goddess, which is a common theme for goddesses, though could be linked to Mara

Tu'Whacca - Arkay, but with a more devious twist

Zeht - An agricultural god, probably linked with Zenithar, god of commerce and industry.

Tava - Kyraneth

Malooc - Malacath, plays the antagonistic 'Devil' character of Redguard mythology

Leki - a wierd goddess of swordsmanship

Onsi - the male version of Leki, who apparently taught redguards how to make swords.

HoonDing - Essentially, the hero Hunding. He was a major player in the invasion of Hammerfell, and the belief is that he was later the sword in Stros M'Kai, when really that was a prince's soul

Diagna - another deified hero-god, like Hunding. Originally he was presented as a manifestation of Hunding, but later he became so powerful that they made him into a whole new god.

I think this would be far more interesting to have as the cult feature for Hammerfell. Daedra have been done. Here we get a good mix of Aedra, heros, and one Daedra. The cults, as far as I can gather, would be secretitive and a bit wacky, with a lot of roots in a cliched version of voodoo. Artifacts we could add include the Talisman of Hunding, the Soul Sword and pretty much anything we care to invent or find in lore.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:15 pm

You're not entirely correct. Satakal is Anu and Padomae. Ruptga is probably Akatosh, he being the first god. Dibella, Stendarr, and Julianos don't exist as part of their pantheon. Probably all part of Ruptga except Dibella, who probably is part of Morwha.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri May 05, 2006 10:31 pm

Well I was going on my own interpretations, since the ones in the Varieties of Faith bit seem to be...well...wrong. Padomay is supposed to be the father of Lhorkan, which the book states to be Sep. That would make his creator, Tall Papa/Ruptga, Padomay. However, they say that Satakal is Anu and Padomay. Thats why those suggestions are not the same as in the book.

The other Aedra need not be represented at all. I believe that they can function perfectly well without those deities featuring.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:18 pm

There are in lore Daedric shrines in all provinces, that includes Hammerfell.

Satakal is more specifically the concept of the Aurbis from what I understand of it.

Lastly, here's an idea I've been thinking of: in Oblivion each major city is a centre for a god, a centre for a college of magick, a centre of ..., etc. Maybe we could try and do the same with main 8 major mainland cities?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri May 05, 2006 11:30 pm

Well Hammerfell isnt as unified as Cyrodiil, so being the centre of a school of magick, rather than being like the one chosen by the university to represent it, would be like the guarded secret of that area.

Besides, magic and the mages guild is far less prevalent in hammerfell.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat May 06, 2006 12:23 am

Nomadic1 wrote:There are in lore Daedric shrines in all provinces, that includes Hammerfell.

Source?

Lastly, here's an idea I've been thinking of: in Oblivion each major city is a centre for a god, a centre for a college of magick, a centre of ..., etc. Maybe we could try and do the same with main 8 major mainland cities?

Name something the 8 Hammerfell cities could have as a set.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sat May 06, 2006 1:15 am

im guesing that the daedric shrine thing is pure asumption, based on teh fact that daedra are worshiped in one form or anotehr everywhere. i dont think that its as wide spread however, since the ra-gada pretynmuch wiped out all other civilisations at the beggining of their conquest.

and id have to agree with sload, the 8 cities arent realy idea for centering, due to their different politics and enviorment, etc. (the traditional redguards dotn suport mages for ex.)

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sat May 06, 2006 2:00 am

Sload wrote:Source?

I don't have a source for all of them. But Nocturnal was probably the Daedra worshipped around Lainlyn. Malacath is one of the Redguard pantheon and would certainly have a shrine. Hircine would also have a shrine, given that there are a lot of witches in northwestern Hammerfell, and Hammerfell is home to two kinds of lycanthropes. And so on.

Name something the 8 Hammerfell cities could have as a set.

Well, I dunno. Well, Mages Guild college specialisations would be a start. If the idea of arenas and underground fighting clubs is approved, maybe each could specialise in different rules and styles.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:32 am

Nomadic1 wrote:
Sload wrote:Source?
I don't have a source for all of them. But Nocturnal was probably the Daedra worshipped around Lainlyn. Malacath is one of the Redguard pantheon and would certainly have a shrine. Hircine would also have a shrine, given that there are a lot of witches in northwestern Hammerfell, and Hammerfell is home to two kinds of lycanthropes. And so on.

I see no sources there. How do you know Nocturnal was the Daedra worshipped around Lainlyn? (Not doubting it, I just want a source) Malacath would have a shrine as Malooc. Lycanthrope does not exist in Oblivion, and witches are everywhere, but Hircine isn't.

Daedra quests have been done in the original. Let's do something new.

Well, I dunno. Well, Mages Guild college specialisations would be a start. If the idea of arenas and underground fighting clubs is approved, maybe each could specialise in different rules and styles.

Mages Guild has been done, originality is a good thing. I can't think of 8 different styles of fighting (archery, blunt, blade, and hand-to-hand), and neither of those would make a city as a whole unique.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sat May 06, 2006 3:56 am

Sentinel is the epicenter of Mercantile.

I have seen it.

I have sight.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:35 am

Sload wrote:
Nomadic1 wrote:
Sload wrote:Source?
I don't have a source for all of them. But Nocturnal was probably the Daedra worshipped around Lainlyn. Malacath is one of the Redguard pantheon and would certainly have a shrine. Hircine would also have a shrine, given that there are a lot of witches in northwestern Hammerfell, and Hammerfell is home to two kinds of lycanthropes. And so on.
I see no sources there. How do you know Nocturnal was the Daedra worshipped around Lainlyn? (Not doubting it, I just want a source) Malacath would have a shrine as Malooc. Lycanthrope does not exist in Oblivion, and witches are everywhere, but Hircine isn't.

Daedra quests have been done in the original. Let's do something new.

Alright.

let's just have something new which is interesting enough to be a substitute for it. (The Boom "Ghwaraj and the Harpies", or whatever it is called, pretty much says at the end the worshippers were Nocturnals. There are two kinds of lycanthropes in Hammerfell - werewolves and wereboars, and you didn't say anything which made my argument wrong)

Well, I dunno. Well, Mages Guild college specialisations would be a start. If the idea of arenas and underground fighting clubs is approved, maybe each could specialise in different rules and styles.
Mages Guild has been done, originality is a good thing. I can't think of 8 different styles of fighting (archery, blunt, blade, and hand-to-hand), and neither of those would make a city as a whole unique.

You aren't trying :p What about no armour? Swords only? No shields? No weapons or armour? Poisoned blades only? No potions? Poisons? Or magick? etc. The possibilities are there if you want to do it. The only thing really stopping it is imagination.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat May 06, 2006 4:50 am

No armor was the only one that was not what I listed and not ridiculously specific (poisoned blades) or not combat (poisons and magick). I'm not a fan of the idea, anyway, it's the same as making different sides of a quest class-based, what the player does and where they fight should be a roleplaying choice, not a "oh, this is the best for my class" choice.

EDIT: And we seem to be habitually getting off-topic. I can't edit the original post, but I'm creating a new thread with the approved guilds for Oblivion.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat May 06, 2006 10:12 am

Imperial Legion and Imperial Temple - Not approved for consistency with Bethesda's original work.

The Imperial Legion is vastly absent from the Imperial Province, all its forts have been abandonned since seemingly the dawn of time, so it was logical there would be no legion quests. Likewise, the Nine Divines are the local religion, no need to proselytize.

But in a "foreign" province both would makes sense. Just like the Imperial Cult in Morrowind tried to proselytize Ashlanders and Solstheim's drunken nords, the IC in Hammerfell could try to proselytize Dunedwellers and other faithful of the old Yoku gods. And since it's a conquered province, there should be well-maintained forts here and there.

So, what I'm saying is not that we should absolutely make them, but that if we did, it wouldn't be inconsistant with Bethesda's original work.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat May 06, 2006 10:28 am

Well Malacath as Malooc would have a shrine, but he really is the Devil character of the Redguard, so those worshiping him would be like Satanists (which is a misonomer since Satan in the bible was an angel who tested people like Job, and later got painted as the lord of hell, etc).

The whole 'which aedra is which Yoku god' is largely irrelevant, since the Yoku wouldn't tell you anything like that. All we need to know is that Satakal, Sep, Ruptga, Morhwa and Tu'Whacca appear to be Aedric, Onsi and Leki appear to be original warrior gods, and HoonDing and Diagna are hero-gods like Tiber Septim.

They could be centres of their own knowledge, but it wouldn't be knowledge that they share. An easy way to do this would be to have no set 'Redguard Knight' template...Rihad Knights might be heavily armored, axe wielding and slow. Stros M'Kai knights might be very lightly armored ninja-fast fencers. A different style of player from each powerhouse could be interesting, thought the player himself might feel a bit excluded from the fun, since s/he would have already chosen his/her class. The different weapons and armor might make up for that though. A city which specialises in training heavily armored knights probably makes damn good heavy armor.

mynilar · Post by **mynilar** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:19 pm

I played Daggerfall and in the mainquest you meet an orc leader Gortwog from the Wrothgorian Mts. if I remember it right. So even if he's not in charge anymore I don't believe the orcs are completely unorganized now. Even if that organization is centered far away, they sure must have some hideout locations to persuade their comrade orcs to join 'their cause'. Maybe something for the lore experts to check.

When thinking about guilds you immediately think about the usuals, but what about intelligent creature factions? If they are there Im sure they are non-joinable but that decision is up to you. I know lore talks about dragons, so isnt there an (or more) ancient dragon left with an organization (secret maybe)? Same about Giants and other intelligent creatures. You will get the point I think.

In Daggerfall there were also Witch covens where you could summon Daedra, but not sure if you can call this an organization.

And what about some sort of Gypsy's who entertain with fortunetelling and the like (and take part in smuggling etc). Gypsy's/Nomads or whatever maybe not specific mentioned in the lore but like thieves/fighters/mages they are so generic that they would fit into any world.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:25 pm

First, the appropriate thread is the one that has oblivion or obliviated in the name.

mynilar wrote:I played Daggerfall and in the mainquest you meet an orc leader Gortwog from the Wrothgorian Mts. if I remember it right. So even if he's not in charge anymore I don't believe the orcs are completely unorganized now. Even if that organization is centered far away, they sure must have some hideout locations to persuade their comrade orcs to join 'their cause'. Maybe something for the lore experts to check.

I can tell you more than you need to know about it off the top of my head. You are thinking of Orsinium, which is its own city-state and some think it deserves to be listed as a province. It is not a guild, it is a city and that cities holds around it, like Anvil or Leyawiin are cities. At the moment, hot button issues include whether or not Malouch/Malak/Malooc/Malacath is the same person as Trinimac and which of those two should be worshipped.

Further, this is in High Rock, which we are Not Currently Making.

When thinking about guilds you immediately think about the usuals, but what about intelligent creature factions? If they are there Im sure they are non-joinable but that decision is up to you. I know lore talks about dragons, so isnt there an (or more) ancient dragon left with an organization (secret maybe)? Same about Giants and other intelligent creatures. You will get the point I think.

These do not exist, and references to them have been sent the way of [NUMINIT]. That is to say, retcon'd.

In Daggerfall there were also Witch covens where you could summon Daedra, but not sure if you can call this an organization.

Covens will be included in Hammerfell (kind of) but they are more than rare in Morrowind.

And what about some sort of Gypsy's who entertain with fortunetelling and the like (and take part in smuggling etc). Gypsy's/Nomads or whatever maybe not specific mentioned in the lore but like thieves/fighters/mages they are so generic that they would fit into any world.

Gyspies and nomads exist in multiple forms in Hammerfell. However, they are not a joinable faction.