Calligraphy Request

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Fri May 12, 2006 7:28 pm

Here is a gold foil arabic inspired 3d font

[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/goldfoilarabiclike3d.png[/img]

To answer an earlier question: There appears to be a way that we can add fonts to Oblivion, I have not researched the ability to do this in Morrowind yet.

It is going to be a complicated process and the fonts may be kinda dull, because they are not standard windows .TTF, Opentype or Adobe type 1 font file formats. I had been researching the best way to do the conversion with only limited progress. The format that is used is an old windows 3.0 - win95 era screen font format. I have the software to convert fonts to that format; however, the fonts lose a tremendous amount of detail. I know we would not be able to get the 3d effect shown above.

The possible addition of fonts to the game was one reason I had been asking about how we were going to do the installer for TR. The inclusion of our own fonts in the game will necessitate modification of the stock .INI files to add the new font information. Due to the reception I received when asking about the installer on the IRC channel, I have been reluctant to persue any additional research in this area.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri May 12, 2006 7:40 pm

Looks good but I think some of the letters should have the 'smileyface' things, or just dots like i and j has. Kind of like some letters have ÃƒÂ¤ ÃƒÂ¶ ÃƒÂ¥ ÃƒÂ¹ ÃƒÂ» ÃƒÂ¼ etc but at same time being normal letters a o a u u u.
*wonders if anyone got what he said*

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Fri May 12, 2006 8:00 pm

I believe that you are talking about quran marks (arabic) or torah marks (hebrew). I chose not to include them as this was an americanized arabic inspired font. I did not want someone to get offended at the mixture. The world is a very intolerant place at the moment. They can however be added at a later time, if someone deems that it should be so.

Something else to consider is that Arabic, is written from right to left, not left to right like english. So it is never really gonna look "right". Arabic also has 28 letters, not 26 and out of the 28 letters 22 of them have 4 different varients. The remaining 6 letters never join with the succeeding letter, even when in the middle of a word.

here are 5 more:

[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/a1.png[/img]
[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/a2.png[/img]
[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/a3.png[/img]
[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/a4.png[/img]
[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/a5.png[/img]

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat May 13, 2006 12:08 am

We only need capitals and we only need them for a single letter. No need for a complete arabic looking font.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat May 13, 2006 12:22 am

I really like the 2 from the bottom.

Sload wrote:We only need capitals and we only need them for a single letter. No need for a complete arabic looking font.

But dong you guys need font for road sings and stuff like that?

Post by **Haplo** » Sat May 13, 2006 1:21 am

I highly doubt anyone could or would want to read a signpost with bright gold lettering shaped like that.

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Sat May 13, 2006 1:36 am

I have been making complete alphabets due to the fact that; while most of the text will start with A, I or T those are not the only letters that will be used to start a sentence. Some of these are fonts that I have found, and made modifications to, some are fonts I have created myself. They were created in Gold like so that the might look embossed or foiled in the books.

I understand what the initial request was for, I can read. I was asked personally by Xui to make a couple alphabets for him, prior to ever seeing this thread.

I started posting these others due to Macar's question.

Are we able to make a font for books? I did not know that we could. It's different with the big caps: those are just images, but does anyone here have a program for fonts?"

YES, there is a way to add WHOLE FONTS to the game.

YES, I know that was not the original request. It did however become the request through private conversations with Xui, once he realized that the ornate fonts that people are coming up with are not going to look very good with the stock book fonts. I decided to post the results here since they apply to this thread and I didn't feel like getting my ass chewed for starting another thread with a topic so closely covered by this one and since another person that ask about whole alphabets.

It would appear that there are quite a few people that do not understand the technicalities of Arabic, Sanskrit or Hebrew alphabets and why the Americanized fonts don't look quite right.

It is not like they are taking up server space here at TR. They reside on a web server that I pay for.

One more thing, what is that one great Arabic letter going to look like with the stock book font? <EDITED>

If I am in error, and I took your comment out of context, then I apologize for my rant.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat May 13, 2006 1:57 am

I have nothing against making whole alphabets, I was merely trying to make a point of answering Donny's statement.

(And I think the WXYZ should be the same size as the rest of the alphabets, if we're going to make all of the American English alphabet letters)

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Sat May 13, 2006 2:35 am

My response was not directed at you Haplo. I actually took to long editing it, it should have followed Sload's post...

The wxyz being a different size was due to an error on my part. After making the fonts with fontlab or editing them, I opened PSP to make the 3d embossed/gold foil/thread effect and when I entered the text I screwed up on the last 4 and did not notice until after I uploaded the .png files to my web server.

the color and 3d stuff was to make it stand out and look like gold embossing, but are not native to the fonts themselves.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat May 13, 2006 5:19 am

Goodness, don't be so angry. Overreacting doesn't begin to cover it.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Sat May 13, 2006 6:35 am

I actually reckon the bottom two fonts could probably be used by TR somewhere (signs, book covers, notes, etc). The second from the bottom definately

Ali · Post by **Ali** » Sat May 13, 2006 7:46 am

"I believe that you are talking about quran marks (arabic) or torah marks (hebrew). "

By the way people Qur'an marks consist of either a diagnal line above or below a letter and a circle with a tail, and a back to front 2 (there are some others, but they are normally purely decorative as their meanings are fairly obscure). These hold no particular religious meaning as they are merely vocalizaions, there are no vowels in regular written Arabic so these are added above the letters in the Qur'an to verify meanings and help people who don't speak Arabic recite it correctly. They are also used in Arabic childrens books...

With regards to using single Arabic letters for book headings (that last font was pretty much Arabic letters reversed and moved around abit) I don't think its a good idea. Arabic can't be written with spaces between each letter, even computer fonts have to follow a handwritten style so book capitals would look wrong and for capitals, personally I think we should go for something more decorative and ostentatous.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:56 am

Haplo wrote:I highly doubt anyone could or would want to read a signpost with bright gold lettering shaped like that.

Like Ronain Arthyn has stated, he edited them to look like that

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Sat May 13, 2006 12:37 pm

I like 2 and 3 in the big post. The rest are neat looking but pretty hard to make out. Plus they arent caps. But I know you did that on purpose.

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Mon May 15, 2006 5:37 am

[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/turk1.png[/img]

Something like this set in a frame or illuminations around it like the "general" one I posted earlier might work. I have upper and lowercase for it, and it should transfer to the .fon file type should the powers that be decide we should add whole fonts to the game to make our books truly stand out.

Ali · Post by **Ali** » Mon May 15, 2006 9:17 pm

I like this font Ronain, through it would look best for a books actual writing and a more elaborate version could be used as an illuminatory start.

I have also tried a different aproach, this time instead of goinng with the sanskrit I've tried a more Arabic based design with a decorative feel for a books first letter illumination. Its only an idea and some of the letters need alot of refinement like H and F while some I'm fairly happy with some such as B.

Anyway I just wan't to know if people think I should go back to a sanskrit design or if I should follow this direction (keep in mind its rough with a blunt reed, and its the letters that are most important, dots etc can be easily moved)

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4049/img1004g1sp.jpg[/img][/url]

Oh btw the letter E is the word Allah on its side, so I'll probly change that anyway.

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Tue May 16, 2006 12:18 am

That was what I was trying to say Ali, the words just failed me at that moment.

Maybe you and I could work on this together, I will try to pm you with some information later.

Ali · Post by **Ali** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:52 pm

I've done a design for an illumination, again its rough as I have to use white spirit and there's no chance I'm risking my best brushes until its the final thing...
Anyway basically its a simple Islamic shape painted with bronze powder and spirit surround by oil painted shading. The font and writing is just to help you visualise what it might look like in a book.

[url=http://imageshack.us][img]http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/628/img10144iw.jpg[/img][/url]

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Wed May 17, 2006 6:13 am

Inspired by Ali's last post

[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/wip6sized.png[/img]

[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/Nashi1.png[/img]

[img]http://seihea.org/gallery/images/Nashi2.png[/img]

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Sun May 21, 2006 12:50 am

What about these (with nice backgrounds)?
[url=http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=yokudanprint7qx.png][img]http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/7326/yokudanprint7qx.th.png[/img][/url]

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sun May 21, 2006 1:13 am

Before i praise your work Ronain, I have to say, I don't think you can just decide to work on it with Ali, especially since he is not a modder yet, but I can very easily be proved wrong. TR is a community project, we are not being funded (although i hope to slip it onto my CV), so it is a group work, just seemed a bit selfish, as other people like Macar, who has just posted something, may want to have a part in it.

Anyway, it is fantastic Ronain, and that is what i would be looking for, but once again it is a group dicision, and really Ali should get credit too as he came up with design, nice one Ali, I am extremely impressed by your work, i believe you should post it on your showcase, and your concept art thread!

And Macar, although I like it, the ones above the T and the R are illegible. Or maybe I am thinking of them to complicatedly? You tell me, but i really like it Macar, really. Just the whole intricacy thing is great. But it is also what confuses me!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun May 21, 2006 1:26 am

There's no reason they can't work on something together. His moddership has nothing to do with it, since non-modders can post in the WSG and such. Neither of them has the authority to say who can and can't do what or what is chosen, so anyone else can still submit stuff and Xui will decide which he prefers. Basically, they'd just be working on it together.

As I said to Ronain in an IM, I'm not a fan of the ones with the background because I feel like I have to search for the letter. There's just so much space between B and uttercup that it doesn't feel like the same word.

The two whole fonts were made, I believe, because of my opinion on it. Having those that look just like the font would be simple and good looking, no fancy colors just large and good looking letters. I think that's what we should be going for.

My only problem with Macar's (except that I can't tell what 1,3 and 2,1 are) is that they don't feel very Hammerfell. They're too like European caligraphy, which I would put in High Rock.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sun May 21, 2006 1:38 am

No i meant, he said that they should work on it together, i thought he meant just them, so it was a mistake on my part, sorry Ronain

.

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Sun May 21, 2006 2:01 am

The reason that I offered to work on it with Ali, is that he does not have a scanner, has to take pictures with a digital camera and I have the software to digitize any of the fonts that he came up with. It had also seemed like others had lost interest, while Ali still had an interest.

There was no intent to hijack this from anyone else offering up ideas, I was just trying to get Ali's concepts from paper to digital work, expand my ideas and make a contribution.

I apolologise if the innocence of this was missinterpereted, maybe I should have explained myself better. Sorry if I offended anyone.

I have in PM and in Ali's concept art thread, expressed a desire for him to post some of his work within the showcase forum. I think he fully deserves credit for anything he does. Hence the line above my last post that states that the work was inspired by his last post. It is not identical, and took me several hours to get it just the way I wanted it, but was inspired by him.

Macar, I like the detail in your illumination; however, like Pound said there are several that are illegible. They are very creative. To me they are more reminiscent of somthing with a celtic or maybe a south american flair. I like them none the less.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sun May 21, 2006 2:05 am

No Ronain, there is enough trouble in this topic already, i misintertrpretted it, I apologise, I was the dunce here, sorry again

.

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Sun May 21, 2006 3:01 am

Really? They're still unreadable? Wow, My brain must be screwed up, because they look really obvious to me. Well they were supposed to read as follows:
TSIJAN
BCDRFG

As for them not looking eastern, oh well I tried, I thought the line across the top would make them look sanscrit-like, but I guess that effect dosent come across with single letters. Oh well, seems calegraphy is not my thing

Ronain Arthyn · Post by **Ronain Arthyn** » Sun May 21, 2006 3:49 am

Now that you say what the letters are, they are clear. I like the heads that you did on some of the letters. they look like serpents heads or crocodile heads, common in celtic and south american art.

I think the problem with figuring out what some were was due to it not being a linear progression of the alphabet, at least that was my problem, can't speak for anyone else.

I think it would be quite viable with a little refinement

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun May 21, 2006 4:50 am

Macar wrote:Oh well, seems calegraphy is not my thing

I don't think so. First there's how I can't even read cursive writing, so you can't go too far beyond standard text without confusing me. Then there's how they're great, beyond their illegibility for some of us, they're just not the Hammerfell. They look kind of halfway between Hammerfell and Breton or Imperial. I can't explain why, it's just..I d'know, something about them.

Ali · Post by **Ali** » Mon May 22, 2006 11:39 am

I've started another font about a week ago but stopped work on it as I'm preparing to start a showcase which I'll be posting on thursday (after that I'm working in the UK for 3 weeks so I won't send anything at that time...)
Anyway here it is, basically another Arabic inspired font but more simplified and Art Noveau than the previous one.

[url=http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img100267758as.jpg][img]http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/7837/img100267758as.th.jpg[/img][/url]

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Mon May 22, 2006 2:23 pm

Macar wrote:Really? They're still unreadable? Wow, My brain must be screwed up, because they look really obvious to me. Well they were supposed to read as follows:
TSIJAN
BCDRFG

As for them not looking eastern, oh well I tried, I thought the line across the top would make them look sanscrit-like, but I guess that effect dosent come across with single letters. Oh well, seems calegraphy is not my thing

I never said it doesn't look Eastern, it's a great design, and now you say I can see it's an I and J. I just couldn't red them.