Wsg 16: The Navy of Hamerfell

Silverwood · Post by **Silverwood** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:28 pm

Yup.

And for the first time, my concepts ass has been royally kicked. I'm sure more will follow. Awsome detail lady N., my design (the mesh part) was designed basically imperially, but the coloring/ details were from several extravagant clothings I saw that were on Redgaurds and Altmer. It does seem to need an area to put the Navy symbol or city symbol. i noticed the shoulder had one, but it would be cooler to also have the city symbol on the belt or something.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed May 31, 2006 7:47 pm

Well this is not the best shot of it, but here's a preview of my 'Slavedriver' (A pirate crew's foreman

)

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/haplo12345/Preview.jpg[/img]

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:41 pm

Lady N, I expect nothing else, and I think with a Turban that design would be complete! I do prfer the Imperial for travelled peole like this, but that is pretty cool. And not noly that, you need a career in this sort of thing. really nice. Haplo, I would love for this to be possible. As some charcters just don't fit slim do they? But I am sure we could sort out any clipping problems with those really cool trousers. We have got to somehow get good ol' MC Hammer style trousers in!

Silverwood · Post by **Silverwood** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:06 am

woOtah! that is good. I keep forgetting you are good at art.

I'm not sure if you can stretch people to be that bulbous in the character making though...

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:13 am

Here are some ideas for Hammerfell pirate costumes.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/Dexter_Kong/HFPirate1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/Dexter_Kong/HFPirate2.jpg[/img]
I'm going to work on a jolly roger for Hammerfell too. I want it to be non-standard, more threatening than the jolly roger you find in the Den of Thieves mod.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:16 am

woah, thats pretty darn sick. No-one has taken the 'biker' look yet! I think that is pretty sick!

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:54 am

The man in the second picture may look overladen with swords, daggers and other pointies, but really, they're just for cooking.

Anyway, first I didn't realise that image shack just mean making the picture smaller, so I'll do that. I nowmally have it at 500 width, should fit in the screen easily, but for this one I used 660 so that you could read the writing. Really all I need to do is make my images .jpeg, but to do this I'll have to run it through paint first, and paint ain't so good.

*edit* And Lady N, you call my costumes too Imperial? Come now, they're less Imperial than yours. Great picture though, and if mine don't make the cut that would be my next in line, right beside that robust Overseer by Haplo. *edit*

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:16 am

I think these might be reffered to Gnomey, but I doubt these are finalised concepts for modelling.

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:45 am

True, and I didn't expect mine, at least, to be used, I hardly call myself the best concept artist or the best mind in this project. Not to say that I'm insulting my skills... *Holds sketchbook above head*

But if I manage to model and texture, I think Vvardenfell will have a visit from some Redguard galleys.

Or if I have Oblivion, I'll make my HNR, Hammerfell Navy Rebuilt!

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:53 am

Hahaha, good luck with that (HNR). But if you feel that strongly about it being more Redgaurd style, and you prove you are dedicated, you're views will be taken into consideration more openly, as you will be a well known and respected memebr of the TR community.

Must write that in my to do list...

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:05 am

Yes, yes, I must have power! I must be the most powerful modder in all the internet! I WILL RULE ALL WITH AN IRON... Oh, wait, I shouldn't give away my plans. He he he.

But I don't really feel so strongly about having my things be in TR, I just want to put my models into a game and hope the selfish mission might help someone. However, I'm actually all for TR just having Redguard upped to the Oblivion level, it shows a more accurate picture of how Hammerfell should be, or should've bin, rather. But at least have baggy pants, people, the player should know when he leaves Cyrodiil and enters Hammerfell!

Anyway, I'll say this because I think it fits into the subject of this thread. If Redguard was supposed to have taken place a long time before Oblivion, and they had cannons, or proof of them, wouldn't cannons and muskets be common by this time? Maybe ES decided they wanted to freeze the world in one timeframe, thinking that the technologies are getting too far, but still...

By the way, I decided to do a scale of an Imperial Ship compared to my Hammerfell boat. It was originally going to be atmospheric, but... Yeah. In the middle top you will see what I think the flag for the Imperial Navy should look like, with a nice wooly texture.

Also, that thing that looks like a large crack near the front of the hull is supposed to be foam from a wave, the ship is turning away from you.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:02 pm

I think you want to make the main mast larger, it looks a bit sparse at the moment and it would really need a larger sail anyway.

And pirate/sailor clothing with tools attached would actually be a good idea...on a boat having a spare knife handy at all times would be pretty useful.

As far as we know the only race who had prolific use of explosives were the dwemer. You can have a respectable war without it...catapaults, burning pitch pots, ballistae....two ballistae with a barbed rope held between the bolts would be great for either greatly injuring a crew or fouling up the rigging of a ship that you want to capture.

The thing is, with magic, they have no real need to look into science to solve their problems.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:03 pm

I have to say, i don't remmebr any muskets. But whatever, I know it was set far before OB, in the Second Era

EDIT: I agree with what Jale said, they have magic, and BTW, really nice Boat! Another minor problem is the Captains quarters need to be longer You'll find the riased part of a ships deck will often be closer to 1/3 the way in. Anyway, it's pretty nice though.

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:17 pm

No, no muskets. Just I think in a picture of Redguard, not screenshot, drawing, they showed a cannon, they also had a barrel of gunpowder, but it may have been Dwemer, who knows. I just assumed that, possibly having cannons, they might want to make the cannons holdable, and smaller, and lighter, hence musket.

And Jale, the mast is longer, I just ran out of paper.

It would actually go higher and have something, maybe a sort of communication, whether in form of flags or whatever, on top.

Pound, you're right with the pirate deck, and the part below it shouldn't have gone so far down. Oh well. And, back to Jale, it isn't so necessary with pirates, who normally stay within the vicinity of their ship, which means they're also close to the mess. However, for malitia and the such it would really be a good idea.

Finally, thank you both for your comments.

Oh wait, also I agree with the magic part, but if the opponent has a good anti-magic defence you'll need a powerful plan B, right? Maybe the cannons were made to watch the Bretons/Altmer.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:25 pm

We generally Bretons and Altmer. Well, magic users are usually pretty darn weak when it ome to a shiny blade. So you've got a weakness to either, whoevr you are, unles you are some guy withheavy armor that has 100% Sheild or 100% Spell Reflection.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:35 pm

Dexter: I love the second one, the amount of knives reminds me of that Blackbeard incedent where he boarded the ship with the seven pistols and three knives. The first one, while very badass, just doesn't seem very Tamriel to me. More Hell's Angels.

(And is everyone you draw that ripped?)

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:38 pm

Yer, i can see the Hells Angels influence there definately! But maybe without the spikes it could work.

I actually didn't comment on your knifey one Dexter, it is definately more what I imagined than our friendly biker.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:43 pm

Gnomey wrote:And, back to Jale, it isn't so necessary with pirates, who normally stay within the vicinity of their ship, which means they're also close to the mess. However, for malitia and the such it would really be a good idea.

I have no idea whta you thought I meant, but I was referring to how a knife is a great tool for ship life. Ropes need splicing, and so forth. If you get fouled up you need to be able to cut yourself loose.

Im currently drawing a river-going skiff for troop transport.

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:46 pm

Oops, sorry, read that wrong. I thought you were referring more closely to my post, but I see now. I think a normal dagger should do the trick, unless someone can model a Swiss Army Knife.

Im currently drawing a river-going skiff for troop transport.

That hurts. Didn't my river ship get the cut?

[/quote]

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:25 pm

In the Thieves Den mod, didn't the captain have a problem with mages? I know that some pirates might not have problems with them, but the Red Sabres' captain had to have some influence in the way of mages on ships. In the modern era. Not the second.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:36 pm

A lot of people have a problem with mages, but still mages are the intelligensia of Tamriel. No point having an alchemist invent gunpowder, which needs to be lit to work, when you can just have a potion whihc explodes when thrown, or enchanted fire arrows.

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:54 pm

I understand you Jale.

I was talking about having mages on ships.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:13 pm

You didnt.

I know what you meant. He doesnt have a mage on a ship. Thats pretty much a choice not to use a weapon on moral grounds. theres no alternative, because the only people who would be able to make gunpowder...are mages!

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:36 pm

Alchemists are not mages, though they're close to it. And if you're faced by a really good wizard, do you run at his with a sword? If you're stupid, yes, but at least get him by range, and cannons can get a couple at a time, so let's make cannons! Remember, I'm talking about alchemists who try and help fight other mages who are immune to... Alchemists can't fight anyway, and if a mage is resistant to other mages, I'd want a huge cannon ball to knock him down instead!

But I see your argument and agree, for firepower cross... oh right. Bows might do then.

Composite bows, short bows, whatever seems the most Redguard.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:53 pm

Alchemists are mages, and they view chemicals as 'magical extracts' according to one book I read. If they arent mages, why are alchemists in the guild of mages, alchemy under 'Magic' skills, and alchemical knowledge a requirement for mages as stated in their guild charter? Its a mundane and minor school of magic, but its magic as far as people in Tamriel are concerned.

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:05 pm

Oh, sorry, I meant Alchemists are not fighting mages, and have no way of defence. They are, however, mages. That's for sure.

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:11 pm

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/haplo12345/Ship.jpg[/img]

Here is an anatomically correct English Galleon from around the 1400s, however sketchy the quality may be X-/

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:31 pm

Very nice! I always draw my lines too hard, and I can never leave a line unfinished. Because of this, I'm no sketcher, so when I see one, I'm humbled. The picture itself is good too, just what I meant to draw before starting on unrealsitic stereotypes. For my Galleon, of course. You can never shake my defence of my galley!

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:12 pm

[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/RedguardNavyShip.jpg][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/Dark_Jale/th_RedguardNavyShip.jpg[/img][/url]

Im fairly dissatisfied with this, but heyho it was fun to draw.

This is supposed to be a multipurpose transport ship. Its intended for rivers and coasts, and is propelled by a crew of 38 rowers, on 16 oars. The main deck is very adaptable: rings set into the deck allow provisions and siege machines to be safely transported. Alternatively benches for soldiers can be put out, or more rowers. As you can see, its fairly exposed, but this is not a long-range ship: its mainly for quick assault or getting a lot of stuff from point A to point B. For landings, a shield wall would be used to defend the men on deck (watch troy

). The flat bottom allows the craft to beach effectively, and the lack of sides on the main deck allows troops to literally jump into battle. In addition, arrow slits are set into the forecastle, and a small ballista can be mounted on the foredeck to defend a landing party. While the first troops are the cannon fodder, knights would follow, followed by the militamen who would have been manning the oars. The main advantage of the ship is adaptablity. A mast can be added for longer trips, and tents can easily be pitched on the main deck.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:58 am

Very practical build. Perhaps I should have given my ship a raised platform for rowers, leaving the lower deck clear for storage. The low sides are also a good idea, I put mine high so that a roof could be put on top incase of bad weather. The roof could be the a fore mentioned platform. In short, your ship has many good ideas which have rather inspired me. I might update the transport, though now I'm feeling that it would be way too heavy for any but the biggest rivers.

But the arrow slits in the front, not so good. When ships move forward they displace water, a lot of which goes up, and it would spill into the slits even in calm seas. Also, you could place a board in front of the ballista with a hole for shooting through. This board will protect the ballista and archers from arrows, and the board could be on hinges so that it can clap down to release a wave of attackers. However, it will limit the movement of the ballista. Just my idea.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:08 am

Excellent drawing LadyN

I look forward to seeing it in color

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:35 am

But the Hell's Angels are pirates.
To tell the truth, the concept was based off a photograph of Sid Vicious. I wanted to go for a grunge/punk style for the Hammerfell pirates. The vest is already a staple pirate garmet (even the Lego pirates wore vests), I just jazzed it up with spikes on the shoulders and a jolly roger patch on the back. Through texturing, we can keep them from looking like modern-day bikers (they'll be wearing cheap cloth, not leather), but I feel that the grungy punk look is a good way to go for the pirates. It'll create both a sense of anarchy and disorder in the different pirates, but it will also give us a theme by which the pirates can be distinguished from normal citizens, and even marauders and the like.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 7:49 am

Certainly, I can see what you mean. I think the only problems, for me at least, are the bracelets and the chains, which weren't clothing accesories in the ES world or our Middle Ages. Other than that, but this is getting really fussy, so ignore it, there's something about the vest's cut that seems... modern and wierd. However, as long as the vest isn't black leather or denim I'm fine. As for the spikes on the shoulder, they look kind of like a Hammerfell pauldron to me, so I have no problem with them.

Anyway, my main problem is that it stands out too much. Pirates in history were unemployed or poor people who needed some money, so they banded together and got a ship. I don't think there was much 'punk' in there, just meeting needs. And also, how would the pirates come up with the looks? No one else wears anything remotely the same. Well, in connection with the vest at least. The only thing the vest has in common with others is that it is a vest, with buttons. Again, great sketch, I just don't think it works for Hammerfell.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:41 am

Well the arrowslits would have watertight shutters and really just be glorified portholes. Also the rowers are on the lower deck and the useful stuff is on the bottom...of course like I said its an adaptable ship so you could have the rowers up top.

The point about having the bottom so wide is that it displaces a lot of volume, and so sits very high in the water. As long as there is the width of river, deapth would not really be an issue.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:23 am

With the last comment I meant my ship. I'll post the updated version soon, and I hope, Jale, that you don't mind my using some of your ideas. They were just too good.

I'm also going to post a totally different sailor suit soon, this one will be more Medieval Turkish and is outfitted for battle. I'm thinking that the sailor would normally just wear a tunic and some baggy pants. As to the slits, they do work but they just go somewhat low. portholes have about a floor between the windows and the water.

Finally, I drew up a gang of ruffians, pirates, you know, and am wondering whether it would be wrong for me to post a pic. For now they are called the "Three Blind Mice", unoriginal, I know, and they are the leaders of a pirate ship. You may think they can't do much when they're blind, and they can easily be confused, but their other senses are good enough and their loyal followers can see fine.

To make it fit in slightly better, one of them is a former captain who the second served under and the third has good experiance in sailing. They consist of a Dark Elf and two Redguards.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:42 am

Go ahead, take some ideas, this is just one big stewpot of concepts!

What to do next...perhaps regalia and flags, rank emblems and so forth...

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:34 am

He he,

just have to wait for Sibling to get off scanning computor. Will be posted tomorrow at latest. I hope the drawing weeks aren't from Sunday to Saturday!

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:43 am

I love Lady N's outfit, it seems quite spanish to me. I think the ones by Jale and the ones by Gnomey are also good, I think this could be a good difference between some different cities. One would be more Imperial, another more "conservative" Redguard and the other a mix of both. But they would depend on the politics in the cities ofcourse.
Don't really know anything to say about the ships though, it gets a bit too technical for me.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:28 pm

I actually agree with Dexter, in fact, I think I will do a few designs "bikers" style, seeing if I can swing you guys from your "anti biker-ism".

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:15 pm

I'm nearly swung already. (I can make up words!

) If you use the right material... the chain still seems so wrong though! Can't you just have a plated sash which has some use attached? And as for the bracelet, if you make it longer, more like a real bracer, I'd say sure. The skull also looks pretty modern, though. Guess it's just a matter of taste, I like the smiling skull & white crossbones best.

Three blind men on a dead man's chest
Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!