Wsg 16: The Navy of Hamerfell

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:27 pm

Not real skulls, no leather, no spikes, but big Nords, with long hair or those bandana things!

So tonite i will do that, and we'll see if anyone agrees. And i see your almost already swung Gnomey....

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 3:52 pm

Gnomey wrote:Pirates in history were unemployed or poor people who needed some money, so they banded together and got a ship. I don't think there was much 'punk' in there, just meeting needs. And also, how would the pirates come up with the looks? No one else wears anything remotely the same. Well, in connection with the vest at least. The only thing the vest has in common with others is that it is a vest, with buttons. Again, great sketch, I just don't think it works for Hammerfell.

The "look" that I am going for is beat-up old clothes, repaired with patches and straps (like on his legs), with spikes and the like that serve to make the pirate look scary. Pirates put a pretty good deal of effort into their appearance. Their preferred tactic was to pull up parallel to a boat, scream and bellow for a while, and hope the ship surrendered. The jolly roger is nothing more than an intimidation tactic.
And when I said I was going for a punkish look, I meant the oldschool street punks, specifically of London and New York, who had a similar mindset. They wore dirty, cheap crap, repaired it when it got damaged, and put spikes and chains on stuff to look mean. I wasn't talking about your modern-day breed of Hot Topic losers.

Post by **Gnomey** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:59 pm

Well, the chains don't really seem too scary, or have any use, and the skull design is too modern, I think. The braclet is really just a matter of taste, so it can stay. Either way, in the end, someone of higher rank than me will decide.

Now my pics, two this time. The first was coloured by photoshop, the black and white are still there:

A groggy guard is surprised by the voice of the captain, his long shift is finally over. His jerkin is Turkish and made of leather. The sleeve is cut in half along the inside so that the sleeve can be pulled up and pinned to the suit's shoulder. When down it is held together by buttons. His armour is turkish, and so, I think, is his helm. He has a Targe and sabre, and civilian-style shoes.

Beside him are some weapons: A handy tool, one end is a knife the other is a hammer. Then a composite bow, then some arrows for it. A bodkin arrow and a large one, the idea was taken from the Mongols. It was used as a scare tactic and to break the enemy ranks.

The Three Blind Mice portrayed on a wanted sheet. Below them are a small list of their crimes. As to the pictures themselves:

-Rels Nelgar, the Dark Elf. He came from a smuggler ship, the baggage slaves. How he lost his sight: The eye under his patch was punched in a bar fight, making it quite blind. The other just became blind naturally.

-Former Capt. Hayle, in the middle. Once captain of a city's fleet, in a battle with a rival city he recieved three slashes to the face: The one on the cheek did little, but the two others blinded one eye each. Rather gory, hence the need of the bandage. He took out his anger by, after the war was stopped thanks to the Imperials, looting ships along the rival city's trade route, getting him outlawed. He is, in all fields, better than his peers, so he is the Capt. of the Three Blind Mice

-James Hawk, the last. Once he served under Capt. Hayle, until he was involved in a nasty bit of anti-Imperial rioting. When the guards came, he was one of the few caught. His punishment was the loss of his eyes. He is quite anti-Imperial and, as looks go, my favorite. Though my uncoloured Dark Elf was really good.

A picture of a tavern, beside it is a sign: The Emporer's Ears. It is the base of the Three Blind Mice, and the Imperials know this, but they can do little for lack of proof. How do you meet the gang? First you must recieve an Imperial coin with an eye where the Emporer's profile should be, then you pass it to the bartender and say: "I want booze, give me anything Imperial." He will lead you to his cellar 'to pick which alchoholic drink looks best'. As soon as you're out of the earshot of the crowd he says: "The Emporer's eyes." reply "And the Emporer's ears" and a blind spell will be cast on you. You follow the quest arrow and will end up among the Three Blind Mice.

At the bottom right picture there's a Redguard Naval College.

As to my second picture, it is a ship model that uses Haplo's slavedriver, this time as 'Overseer' and a drummer. Both are there to 'motivate' the rowers. Below the rower's deck is the storage. Ships like these often use slaves, and due to corruption and keeping the slave's mouths shut they get away with it.

*edit* Oops, I'll update the files in a second so that you don't have to download. *edit*

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:52 pm

God, my Internet is running at the speed of a pair of quadriplegic, Siamese twins. (_REALY_ slow)

So, to reply to comments on my drawings:
- I don’t really think that a turban is the way to go – with this costume or any. A turban seems to me like too much of an rl reference… and I cant really see a black person in a turban

- Gnomey: I didn’t see yours

no offence, but it think it’s a little too Arabic

- how long do I have to color it Morden?

Mleh, I should stop criticizing. All the pics looks great!

Gnomey: looking good. It does take a while for one to establish themselves as prominent artists, but at the rate you’re going I already consider you one. The most important thing is to just keep drawing… eventually you’ll get something everyone really loves. On a more constructive note, heavy armor (like plate and chain) has little use on ships, since it only helps bring you down when you’re in the water.

Dexter: the outfit does seem a bit modern (the spikes mostly I think)…

Again, I love!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 10:22 pm

Lady Nerevar wrote:- I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t really think that a turban is the way to go Ã¢â‚¬â€œ with this costume or any. A turban seems to me like too much of an rl referenceÃ¢â‚¬Â¦ and I cant really see a black person in a turban

Really? I can imagine Africans in turbans with extreme ease, mainly because I've seen them all the time. I also don't think it's a real life reference at all. While often associated with Islam (though most western wearers are Sikhs), turbans can be and are worn by just about anyone. I think they'd fit wonderfully into Crown society. Maybe not the stereotypical sultan turbans, but some kinds of turbans for sure.

I'm more interested in seeing some good dreadlocks instead of the shite Oblivion had.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:42 pm

Yer, they donb't have to be the turbans you are thinking of, many people wear Turbans to resist heat, rather than for religious reasons.

To Dexter: I know you want spikes, but they are just a bit modern, I would even have leather rather than the spikes. In fact, I really will do this concept I said i would.

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:50 pm

I'm more interested in seeing some good dreadlocks instead of the shite Oblivion had.

Amen, Sload. Amen.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:54 pm

Yer, when you try to make them go longer, they get fatter!!!! I thought length defined, well... length. Not how thick the sausages you placed on your head are.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:03 am

lb003g0676 wrote:Yer, when you try to make them go longer, they get fatter!!!!

The pills just didn't work for you? Have you tried surgery?

More seriously, my main problem with the dreads is that they're just fat cornrows. Dreds should be messily all over, not going back. The Khajiit dreads were much better, though not really thick enough.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:06 am

*claps*

I knew you'd get me back somehow... really nice, I see this being a long and prosperous battle of wit.

I undoubtedly will lose.

EDIT:
The too thin bit does remind me of Deuce Bigalow... hehehehe

Anyone seen it? Terrible movie admittedly.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:59 am

lb003g0676 wrote:To Dexter: I know you want spikes, but they are just a bit modern, I would even have leather rather than the spikes. In fact, I really will do this concept I said i would.

Spikes appear in Oblivion, on Arena armor. Also, consider how common studs are in the game. Studs are extremely popular on lighter armors, such as leather. Spikes work the same way as studs, they are just sharpened.
And as for the chains, look again at in-game armor. There are tons of pieces of armor that have both leather/fur and chainmail on them. The Cuirass of the Savior's Hide is an excellent example. It not only has a patch of chainmail here and there over a fur base, but it also has iron rings on it.
If you would prefer, we could make the vest a piece of armor instead of clothing, with a (poor) armor rating, but I really do feel that the argument that spikes and chains are too modern does not hold up.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:19 am

Eh, chains have no use, chainmail is there to protect your body, chains just hang heavily down from your cloths, causing no terror at all. If he used a chain as a weapon, yes, that would be scary, but it can't be done. Remember, chains and chainmail are two very different things. The spikes are fine, though. Imagine the spikes without everything else, just on a piece of armour as pauldrons. Don't they look sort of Orcish? I think the spikes are fine, the bracelet... meh. My only problems are the skull and the chain.

As to the turbans, yes, the sultan one is a bit extreme, and I'd rather have a big, somewhat flat turban, to come to think of it. The Captain was me least favorite of the outfits anyway, but they are concept pieces, not works of art. Basically, I was going for small turban for smaller ranks, then bigger, and then a really big turban for the Captain. At the time I could only think of the sultanish turban so I went with that. And I will keep on drawing, don't worry 'bout that.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:42 am

Again, with pirates, it's not always about function over form. Pirates also liked really big opulent hats (this is why the captain always has the most pimpin' hat), which serve no purpose, and don't look scary. If the general consensus is that the chains have gotta go, fine, we can easily replace them with leather straps, which are quite common on armor.
The spikey bracers may not cover as much of the arm as you would like, but they are about the same size as prison bracers. Just imagine how many prison bracers these guys must have hanging around. Slap on some spikes, and you've got one scary looking piece of armor. Won't offer much in the way of protection, but I'm sure it would make the pirate feel really intimidating.
And the skull design, meh. Here is your classic, no-strings-attached jolly roger:
[img]http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~banks/images/logos/jolly-roger.gif[/img]
Effective, to the point, but it's been done a titload of times, and it's what people will be expecting to see when they try and join our pirate crew.
[img]http://jolly-roger-pirate-journal.info/JollyRogerFlag.jpg[/img]
Here is something with a bit more flavor. It's more sinister, much nastier, but still, nothing we haven't seen before. Much less common, I admit, but we've seen plenty of variations of the classic jolly roger.
[img]http://www.doktor.webz.cz/images/photos_punk/misfits%20skull.jpg[/img]
Now here is the Misfits skull icon. Anyone remember this? You better have, because as you can see, I'm bringing back the oldschool, motherfuckers!
Ahem. We certainly shouldn't use this (so as not to get sued), but why not take inspiration from it? I don't buy that it is too modern of a design, because it is a skull design, and the human skull has been more or less unchanged for thousands of years.

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:59 am

The big guy with the long hair wrote:Anyone remember this? You better have, because as you can see, I'm bringing back the old school, motherfuckers!

Where did that come from?

I agree with you on needing a new jolly roger, though maybe not as intimidating as the alternative you posterized.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:22 am

Well, in the middle ages castles were shown about the size of a person, and the people looked quite 2d, but the human head has had little change since and castles today are shown to be quite a lot bigger. It isn't how the skill looks, it's is which style it would be drawn. I say the second ones fine, with a bit of altering so as not to break any possible copyright.

But the leather strap is just what I meant, or even a plated strap. Those are quite common and look as if they have a use.

As for the giant pirate hat, they may have been to show rank, or maybe, just maybe, those hat's are worn primarily by stereotypicalized pirates.

And someone said something about armour not being so good on a ship. I fully agree, but these are guards who watch out for pirates. He needs armour to survive enemy arrows. Why worry about going overboard if you're just as likely to be shot through with an arrow? Most sailors, however, as I had stated earlier, just have peasant cloths instead. In my second version, that is. My first has no armour and is more than halfway for show. I suggest that, if it is implemented for only one city, it should be the city most opposed to Imperial rule. If it is, however, decided that it will be used for more cities, I see something like the different Imperial guards in Oblivion, with each city having a different colour, a different flag and different Emblems. And that, though it might take a while, would be music to my... beauty to my eyes.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:34 am

For the jolly roger, we should examine any available examples of Redguard art, and use that as a guide in our own design.
And armor being useless on ships? What, you think pirates spent all day shooting at each other? Hell no, there were ship-boardings and shore raids, of course! You don't see actual armor on the likes of Blackbeard and Captain Jack Sparrow, because firearms made armor useless. But this is Tamriel, there are no guns, and armor is quite useful.

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:37 am

For the jolly roger, we should examine any available examples of Redguard art, and use that as a guide in our own design.

Like the skull with a turban...

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:00 am

Wow, something really does seem wrong with that! Anyway, the only problem with armour on ships is that you sink to the bottom more easily. However, as they had armour on ships in the Middle Ages, I say this argument is over ruled. Anyway, most sailors and pirates couldn't swim, so either way if you land in the water, your dead.

Also, the armour wasn't for pirates, but the navy, which this thread was originally about, before sinking down to the subject of pirates. I was part of this and must say I'm sorry, I hope enough concept art on the navy was already posted, and will continue to be posted.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:27 am

[url=http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pirate7bh.jpg][img]http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7166/pirate7bh.th.jpg[/img][/url]

My very basic Pirate, ala Biker.

And it is very easily mouldable, as it were. You can change it.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:50 am

He he, that's my kind of pirate!

Great work, Pound, it really fits in with Hammerfell.

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:39 pm

Also, the armour wasn't for pirates, but the navy, which this thread was originally about, before sinking down to the subject of pirates.

That's right! Why is everyone going on about pirates!?

As for turbans I think they would be good to use for a more "conservative" Redguard navy (as I stated earlier).

About Dexter's outfit, I think it's not the chains or the skulls that make it look modern, I think it's the shape of the vest. It's really the shape of a denim or leather jacket with the sleaves cut off instead of a simple piece of cloth (like most common clothes should be in a medieval theme).

And about the Misfits skull, I think it's not really an image of a skull, more like an image of a skull mask. But I do think we should think of something new and much different. Images of skulls actually are not something I see in Redguard society except perhaps for the necromancers. I think we should look for something that isn't associated with death but more with honor, because I think Redguards are a very, very honorful race. So, even the pirates would want to look more like honorable strong fighters then like nasty honorless butchers, especially when it would have anything to do with an organisation in which the government has an influence (I'm talking 'bout the navy;)).

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 2:50 pm

Well, I decided to go clothing on you all. I colored this in about ten minutes, so it's not exactly perfec. I hate the color of the boots, which I'll change.

[img]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6977/clothespirate3sp.jpg[/img]

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:05 pm

Shirt cuffs look modern, but that isn't much to critisize. Nice pic. It doesn't look much like a uniform, though. You... didn't make that as pirate garb, did you? *readies pitch fork*

I also said the vest had the wrong cut, but really that is as picky as you can get! I say leave the cut, it'll look fine with local materials.

The honourable Pirate thing is actually a good idea, even if it ruins the idea of my Three Blind Mice.

Let's see, they wouldn't be pirates if they didn't loot, I'm thinkng about something with a sabre... Will the pirates be against the Emporer?

As for turbans I think they would be good to use for a more "conservative" Redguard navy (as I stated earlier).

And as I stated earlier, I fully agree.

But if Hammerfell is in the situation I'd imagine, (some rebel groups attacking Imperial holdings, like the Mages Guilds, the Pirates attacking the Imperial Navy more than anyone else), my costume might be becoming more fashionable, rather than Imperial based clothing. I'm not saying spread throughout the provence, I'm just saying one or two really rebellious cities and maybe a rebel faction in another.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:26 pm

I didn't fully explain my submision, which was stupid. (Surprise, surprise...) Anyway, it's not for the pirates, but for those protecting the city-states from the pirates. (Which was really what the topic was about in the first place.

) It's a deck-hand's uniform, whick means very low-end materials. Mostly for those who have to lower the sails and throw the anchor overboard. They do carry plain sabres though, in case of an attack. I'd imagine they'd have brought some bits and pieces of armour along though, so you might see one with a pair of steel gauntlets, one with an iron helm... I'm doing a middle-rank uniform, and an admirals uniform next. I'm also trying an atmouspheric scene. (Probably never finish, at this rate.)

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 4:37 pm

*lowers pitch fork* Good.

But still, I don't know what it is, but something make it look like medieval Chinese. I'm quite certain it's the vest... I don't know, somehow it just seems wierd. No offence, really. I'd say change the cut of the vest and maybe get rid of the emblem in the middle.

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:50 pm

I didn't mean to say they wouldn't loot 'cause that's just what pirates do. I just meant they wouldn't want to seem like Orcs that don't just loot but light te place on fire and leave no-one allive. They would loot but just not leave a massacre. I also think in Hammerfell looking organised and honorable would be more intimidating.

About Morgoths outfit, I like the style, it's really what you'd expect if the lower ranks would have uniforms, which I think they would because the city's government would probably put a lot of money into making it a strong organisation. But I do think the vest is cut wrong it mainly looks Mongolian to me. But I think that would be changed by cutting the neck lower so it doesn't button all the way up.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:08 pm

Wow, you had the same problem as me.

I know you meant they'd still loot, it was just part of my wandering thoughts as to the pirate emblem. So far I've got looting and hating the Empire. What else?

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:23 pm

The pirates loot things and sail around on ships. Not sure where you got "hate the empire" since that's definitely not something set down in what's been decided about the faction. What's been decided about the faction is that they sail around, they loot, and their headquarters is hidden on one of the islands in the Chain.

The Restless League may've hated the Empire, but this isn't the Restless League.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:27 pm

Allow me to ellaborate upon the typical Redguard outlook on life, and why this outlook led to the approval of a Hammerfell pirate faction.
Redguards have a fierce, individualistic attitude. It is for this reason that Redguards rarely serve as Legion soldiers, but are extremely effective as scouts and spies. They are also very proud warriors. The Redguard came to Tamriel from Yokuda, and slaughtered their way into Hammerfell, claiming it as their own. Later, the Empire re-conquored Hammerfell, and since then, the Redguard have regained some, but not all, of their former control over the land.
So, you have a warrior society that does not like being told what to do. In short, you have a recipe for violent crimes. Did you ever notice that so many marauders and bandits in Cyrodiil were Redguards?
We are including a pirate faction because it is part of the Redguard philosophy. Piracy isn't what ALL Redguards would view as legal and moral, but it is certainly easy to see how the cultural values can be viewed so as to predispose lots of Redguards towards piracy. To them, they aren't doing anything immoral, they are simply living an aspect of traditional Redguard life, before the Empire came and attempted to assimilate them.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:35 pm

Exactly. Pirates are indifferent to who it is they're attacking as long as they don't have a special connection with them, like it was another crew they had worked with and that had saved them or who knows what. They'll attack the Empire, the Crowns, the Forebears, the Bretons, anyone.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:27 pm

Oh, thanks Sload for pointing that out. Don't know how that crept in, originally it was a question.

Anyway, what would you think is the stance of pirates on killing women, children and the crippled? There should be some honour there, right?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:29 pm

...barring of course any personal predudices and opinions of the captains. Its not like we can generalize here, I mean you have pirates who raped and pillaged, and pirates who pillaged and founded Monaco. The Grimaldis...pirates, pillaged many cities (including mine!) and used the cash to fund their principality.

Post by **Gnomey** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:42 pm

Maybe there were even one or two Robin Hood pirates.

Well, who knows. As I said many were just poor people with a boat and some ammunition.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:24 pm

Well, if i were a scurvy sailor, I'd be sure to pillage!

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 11:17 pm

Here coloured versions of my first post, even though they ahve see,mingly been dumped apon! That was a joke.

[url=http://img460.imageshack.us/my.php?image=piratesidea1colour8xb.jpg][img]http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/6399/piratesidea1colour8xb.th.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=piratesidea2colour1he.jpg][img]http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/1331/piratesidea2colour1he.th.jpg[/img][/url]

(With the secong picture, i can see there is something wrong, but I can't pinpoint it, some help would be greatly apreciated)

the Bard · Post by **the Bard** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:15 am

Looks great, Pound. I think what's wrong with the second one is the head's a little too small and the saber isn't pointed to the back. Also his stance is a bit strange because he leans forward a bit.
I just have to say I wouldn't have noticed these things if you didn't ask for what is wrong with it. Hope one of these is what you were looking for, otherwise I really haven't got a clue.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:18 am

hehhee, it's funny you say the head, cus I made it samller, as I thught the problem was the head was too big! Hmmmmm, you're right, it must bethe almost falling over stance

.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:11 am

Here's an edit of that previous one. I've added alot, changed the sword, switched some colors, and changed the arm. Now, couldn't you see a Redguard deack-hand, perhaps sporting a turban, bustling about his duties in that uniform?

I might do an admiral's uniform in the near future.

Forgot the link...:

[img]http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1834/clothespirate020wf.jpg[/img]

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:58 am

lb003g0676 wrote:(With the secong picture, i can see there is something wrong, but I can't pinpoint it, some help would be greatly apreciated)

The head seems to be uneven. Specifically, the hairline is a bit out of symmetry. The hairline on his right side (our left) is just a tad higher than the hairline on his left. This is hard to make out, because the slight shift is hidden by the tilt of his head.
Fortunately, however, this concept thread is not focused on the anatomical symmetry of the Redguard sailors:)

evergrey · Post by **evergrey** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:06 am

But I'm posting it anyway.
Have a strange and not very incredible sketch-
YARRRRR!
[img]http://www.niceboots.org/~evergrey/Tamriel/YARR.jpg[/img]
It's an UN-TURBAN!
I mean it has that nice neck-protecting cloth you see in hte middle east because the sun there burns like crazy, and a built-in sunshade that's all KINDS of stylin' for the discriminating and affluent pirate captain, uhh...
Uh okay I'm going to bed now.

Tamriel Rebuilt

Wsg 16: The Navy of Hamerfell

I was mocked mercilessly for creating this.