Hammerfell Necromancy (some spoilers)

[Amrod]

It is best not to read into things, but assume that Mannimarco is dead because the player kills him.

This subject is still open for discussion. I admit I prefer the explanation that he is not dead. But you did kill someone who called himself Mannimarco in Oblivion. If I want to say he still lives i'm gonna need to prove that somehow, until I can he is considered dead.


Thrignar, while I find your theories interesting, you have not yet provided any lore to back them up. Try looking around at http://til.gamingsource.net or read some books in oblivion.

Nomadic1, according to your theory only 1/7th of him ascended to godhood. I always thought he used his part of the mantella to fully ascend to godhood. He tried to overthrow Arkay and got thrown back to nirn as a mortal. At least thats what I thought. if you found lore describing only part of him ascending then i'd gladly believe you, but it seems unlikely since you cant live with a split soul. (only exception is a lich, who temporary is able to split their soul to become a lich.they have to keep whatever their soul is transfered into close to them)

[Nomadic1]

Nomadic1, according to your theory only 1/7th of him ascended to godhood. I always thought he used his part of the mantella to fully ascend to godhood. He tried to overthrow Arkay and got thrown back to nirn as a mortal. At least thats what I thought. if you found lore describing only part of him ascending then i'd gladly believe you, but it seems unlikely since you cant live with a split soul. (only exception is a lich, who temporary is able to split their soul to become a lich.they have to keep whatever their soul is transfered into close to them)

It's not my theory. Anyway, in the WotW, there were 7 Mannimarcos. The mortal 6 of them became one again for sure; the last divine one is where the question mark lays over.

[Sload]

Here's the thing. I want him to be alive. Actually, I don't. I want his soul to be revived by his followers in some crazy bone golem thing. But whether he's alive or dead is a Big Deal. We need to treat this like the Dwemer and Seht. The lore is right now that Mannimarco is dead, so let's keep him that way.

[Anonymous]

Lichdom is permenant, no arguments. Saying you can come back from it would be like saying you can heal someone out of the state of being a skeleton: its just not going to happen. Vamparism is a bit different, since I view that as a viral-born disease, which can be cured. I am also pretty adamant that this would be a life-changing act: ie most quests would be shut off once you become a lich. The idea is that people do have more than one character, and since you can have many save files, saving before you do it would be an option, thus negating any really bad side effects: you can just play on in the other file. The intention is that after lichdom is achieved there would be one or two very long quests, such as getting Orsinium to agree to allow necromancy, or uniting all the undead of Hammerfell. Big things.


Lets try this from a different tack. I have explained why he should be alive, and that wasnt him you killed.

Lets here some theories why he would do such stupid things totally against his character.

Just for arguments sake.

Oh and Ive had some more thoughts on the ritual..rather than being sealed for a month, the room should be sealed with magical fire which is impassable to all but a lich: even 100% fire shield wont save you here, kiddies. This serves two purposes:

1) You are Sealed in...no turning back
2) Explains how your flesh gets burned off, leaving just the skeleton.


Anyhoo I think something which nobody can deny is that Scourg Barrow IS in the dragontail mountains, so I will talk about it's architecture and elements.

On location: it must obviously be in the middle of nowhere. Think 'Cavern of the Incarnate' from Morrowind, but without the handy directions. You shouldn't be able to see it until you are right on top of it, so it should be in some sort of depression.

On appearance: I think for evil purposes, nothing can beat a good ol' hole in the ground. I drew a concept (which now I cant find) but it was a small mound, with three stone objects acting as sorta pillars, twining at the top, making a tripod over the gaping hole. The blackness of the hole itself could be the enterance, or it could be inside another building if that would work better.

On magical elements: Mannimarco was a psijic, one of the most powerful of his time. He also had the best part of a milennia to play around in his barrow, so we can expect lots of magical contraptions to ease movement.

The enterance: once the player has entered the hole, he or she should fall for a fairly long time. I envisioned the enterance hall to be built around a statue of Mannimarco himself, with a hand upraised, holding something. This item should cast slowfall on the player before he or she hits the ground: just like those funky dwemer traps from Tribunal, just with slowfall. To exit, either stairs could be employed, or a set of gems which facilitate teleportation: Mysticism is, after all, "the manipulation of magical forces and boundaries to bypass the structures and limitations of the physical world."

On Arcitecture: The top level of the barrow should be all of one style: the original bits, the oldest parts. Other parts should have a haphazard, piecemeal look. A bit of hammerfell here, a bit of high rock there: this would show that many people have added to this over the years. There should be a couple of cave ins, bricked in walls, and many sealed doors. The whole place should be very creepy, twisty and cramped.

EDIT: I would also much like to make a mission in which the barrow is attacked, and you end up being an endboss of sorts for another adventurer. That would be a lot of fun I think.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

*bump* This should not be forgotten. *bump*

There has got to be some crappy, messed up pseudo way to make this not permanent. I know the process, I know what happens but to be true to Bethsoft's methods of making cool ways of evil life we would have to find a way to undo this.

WHAT IF!!! the person could cast a special spell that would, for the duration, make them look, feel, and smell like a real person? (a potion with this effect could work too) No lore I know, but it could be similar to a chameleon spell.

[Anonymous]

I did have some sort of illusion spell in mind for certain missions. It could probably be scriptable with items.

Progress Update: Amrod has almost finished a book which adds to the necromancy books from Morrowind. Ive been translating a few useful texts into sloadish.

Okay and here are the two possible story lines...one where mannimarco is back, one where he isnt.

Events leading up to both
You finish the mage guild questline from Cyrodil. You go to Hammerfell, and up north keep hearing rumors of necromancers in the mountains. You can also find a rather poor map with vague directions. If you go looking for it, you might find the enterance to the barrow, hidden in the Dragontail mountains. You enter, descend into the barrow and are met by a necromancer who talks to you. After denouncing the mannimarco you killed as a fraud you will be offered several missions, as you are obviously powerful, and now know where to find the necromancers so could potentially give them away. They try to tempt you into the promises of great power and immortality. If you accept then you can take the simple missions which are all fairly errand-ish. After a while you get your own quarters in the barrow and get some better missons. Eventualy you are called to talk with one of the lichs, who will explain some things to you:

Story Line 1
The lich will reveal that Mannimarco is still alive, only weakened. He was indeed returned to tamriel as a mortal man, and the mages guild heard of it. They bewitched a promising apprentice necromancer who looked much like Mannimarco into believing he was in fact the Worm King, and then sent him to Cyrodil, collecting rogue necromancers (who they regard with disdain) along the way. Once you killed him the mage guild thought he was gone for good and settled back down again. Meanwhile Mannimarco prepared for lichhood.

After recieving more instruction in necromancy, your mission is to aid mannimarco's ascention. You have to fetch many items and ingredients necessary for the ritual. Eventually you gain access to the areas of the barrow where the ritual is carried out, and you meet mannimarco. He expresses his pleasure in your devotion and skills. Once he is re-lichified he will give you some good missions and ask you to become archmagister of the Hammerfell Mages Guild too. Once you are this, he will get you to sabotage it by ordering attacks on Redguard towns, leading to the Redguard turning on the mages and driving them out (so there are no more threats to the necromancers). With this done, he will talk to you about becomming a lich. If you accept the offer, you will have to prepare the ritual and will eventually become a lich. If you decline, then you will get a few more missions based around Redguard nobility (since you can get close, with all your live flesh and all).

Once you are a lich and the whole process is over, you will be sent out to talk to rogue necromancers about joining up with the barrow. Eventually Mannimarco will send you a telepathic message (he is a psjiic so could do this) to return to the barrow. When you get there, much will be ruined and you must hurry down to the lower chambers, fighting Cyrodiil mage guild members and lamp knights (the military wing of the mages guild) along the way. At the very bottom you will meet a hero just finishing off a lich. He will challenge you, and in a bit of RPG humor, you will play the part of the evil end boss. Also, when you kill him, you will be able to loot a Morrowind-Style journal from his body. With the attack repelled, Mannimarco will name you his second in command.

Story Line 2
The lich will say that the false mannimarco's attack on Cyrodil really stirred things up, and even though the Hammerfell mages are placated now, they are still a threat. You will get a lot of stealthy missions to undermine the Mages guild, and eventually be asked to infiltrate their ranks and take control. Once at the top you are told to sabotage them by ordering attacks on the Redguard, leading to the mages being driven out of Hammerfell.

You will recieve a lot of instruction in necromancy and perform lots of missions. Eventually you will be approached about lichhood, and will have to prepare and execute the ritual. If you dont want to become a lich then the results are the same as in Story Line 1. Once you are a lich you get the same events as in Line 1 too: you have to go around uniting the undead and eventually are called back to repel an attack. The difference is that the lich being killed by the hero when you enter is the new 'Worm King' who suceeded Mannimarco when he became the Worm God. After defeating the hero, you hear whispers saying 'crown...crown...crown'. if you equip the crown of the Worm King, the truth is revealed:

Mannimarco is still a god, but has been displeased with the new Worm King. Once a great mage, he has lead the necromancers astray, abandoning Mannimarco's principles and cutting off negotiations with the living that could one day lead to acceptance of necromancers. Mannimarco reveals to you (in a booming, bodyless voice) that he can only talk to the Worm King, and that the old one shut him out. He saw you as the answer: one who would one day be a powerful force in Tamriel. As an aedra, he couldn't just reach out and make you the worm king so had to influence others. He planted suggestions in a young altmer's head, made him gather followers and artifacts, and made him attack Cyrodiil just to get you to eventually come to the barrow. He influenced you (without your knowledge) into becoming a necromancer. He will mention other instances where odd things have happened which save you, like people making odd decisions leading to your rise to power.

Shared Ending
The final missions of both story lines deal with the unification of all undead and working towards the acceptance of necromancy.[/b]

[Dr.zombie]

I've found some more information on lichdom. It seems there are also some ritualistic symbols involve. I like to call them magic circles. They are described in this tome:
http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3900/tome3xk.jpg

And seen here:

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/6263/altar7lw.jpg

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6772/symbol1be.jpg

I wonder what the power of those symbols is, they are everywhere in the basement.

[Gez]

Lichdom is permenant, no arguments. Saying you can come back from it would be like saying you can heal someone out of the state of being a skeleton: its just not going to happen.

Resurrection? Reincarnation happened once for Nerevar (and well, it's not sure it's an actual reincarnation of the soul of Nerevar Indoril, I'm personally more of the opinion it's a reincarnation of the role of the Hortator), but I don't remember hearing of resurrection in TES, except for those Bloodmoon spriggans.

I don't think the engine would easily supports turning the player into a skeletal lich. But it should be possible to duplicate the vampire race, modify our duplicate for a more dry and decayed aspect, and use the vampire system for a gradual transformation into a lich. Wants to be skeletal like Lorgren and others? Well, just you wait a hundred years...

(Of course, one could use a system similar to script spells in Morrowind that allowed one to "transform" into bats or wolves, I think it actually involved making the player invisible and having a creature following the player constantly... I wouldn't want to have such a hack in constant effect.)

On appearance: I think for evil purposes, nothing can beat a good ol' hole in the ground. I drew a concept (which now I cant find) but it was a small mound, with three stone objects acting as sorta pillars, twining at the top, making a tripod over the gaping hole. The blackness of the hole itself could be the enterance, or it could be inside another building if that would work better.

On magical elements: Mannimarco was a psijic, one of the most powerful of his time. He also had the best part of a milennia to play around in his barrow, so we can expect lots of magical contraptions to ease movement.

The enterance: once the player has entered the hole, he or she should fall for a fairly long time. I envisioned the enterance hall to be built around a statue of Mannimarco himself, with a hand upraised, holding something. This item should cast slowfall on the player before he or she hits the ground: just like those funky dwemer traps from Tribunal, just with slowfall. To exit, either stairs could be employed, or a set of gems which facilitate teleportation: Mysticism is, after all, "the manipulation of magical forces and boundaries to bypass the structures and limitations of the physical world."

On Arcitecture: The top level of the barrow should be all of one style: the original bits, the oldest parts. Other parts should have a haphazard, piecemeal look. A bit of hammerfell here, a bit of high rock there: this would show that many people have added to this over the years. There should be a couple of cave ins, bricked in walls, and many sealed doors. The whole place should be very creepy, twisty and cramped.

EDIT: I would also much like to make a mission in which the barrow is attacked, and you end up being an endboss of sorts for another adventurer. That would be a lot of fun I think.

Daggerfall actually had a detailed entrance to Scourg Barrow. It was a unique building (but the rest of the complex was a generic random cave) with a rather peculiar shape. A sort of giant dolmen, a dolmenlike castle. The entrance to the cave complex was through a fake sarcophagus. The follow the tunnel until a room with two zombies and eight exits (including your entryway to that room). Take the southern door of the western side. Follow the tunnel until you get into a rocky cave with a strong slope and a few bats. Once on the bottom, turn right, you're once again in a masonned part. Open the first door on the south wall, you're in the King of Worms' reception room, with his assorted grim-looking NPCs, scantily-clad dancers, and assorted non-hostile ancient liches and ancient vampires (Daggerfall's toughest monsters).

Here are Daggerfall screenshots of Scourg Barrow.
[url=http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg017fe.png][img]http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9360/scourg017fe.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg022vc.png][img]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/5875/scourg022vc.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg037bu.png][img]http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/2853/scourg037bu.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg044lv.png][img]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1879/scourg044lv.th.png[/img][/url]
Around and on-top of the barrow.
[url=http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg055sa.png][img]http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/3871/scourg055sa.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg067bg.png][img]http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/2637/scourg067bg.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg071ly.png][img]http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/4653/scourg071ly.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg083sy.png][img]http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2543/scourg083sy.th.png[/img][/url]
The entrance of the Barrow.
[url=http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg094yt.png][img]http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/9067/scourg094yt.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg106od.png][img]http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/1852/scourg106od.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg112qd.png][img]http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7210/scourg112qd.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img224.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg128st.png][img]http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/1482/scourg128st.th.png[/img][/url]
Approaching the King.
[url=http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg139ap.png][img]http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/126/scourg139ap.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img60.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg142cg.png][img]http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/4039/scourg142cg.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg157td.png][img]http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/69/scourg157td.th.png[/img][/url] [url=http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg161lu.png][img]http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3025/scourg161lu.th.png[/img][/url]
And one bonus screen of King of Worms conversation, because it's just too great.
[url=http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourg174ao.png][img]http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/9969/scourg174ao.th.png[/img][/url]

[Macar]

I love it that the worm king isnt above gossip

[Thrignar Fraxix]

and has no information on necromancers, nice

[Anonymous]

and has no information on necromancers, nice

He's secretive

Well the current verdict is to not make them playable, but probably have them feature pretty heavily in other quests. The building at the top could be used, or they could have rebuilt, we can do what we want.

[Lumpy]

Why would you have to be Arch Mage of Cyrodiil to join the Necromancers? I somehow doubt that all those Necromancers we killed in Oblivion were former Arch Mages. Why not allow the player to join them anyway? Besides, if you've been killing Necromancers for a couple of months, joining them doesn't really make much sense.
And, if you do have to be Arch Mage. Wouldn't you have a little more prestige when you join than an ordinary new member? You've killed the decoy, and a couple hundred Necromancers, you're the most powerful Mage in Cyrodiil, and you are sent on errands?
And then, infiltrate the Hammerfell Mages Guild? The grand Arch Mage of all the Mages Guilds infiltrates his own guild? Remember in Morrowind, you were named Arch Mage by Ocato, meaning that the Arch Mage of Cyrodiil is the highest ranking member in all the provinces.

[jonrd463]

I agree with Lumpy.

To me, the necromancers are to the Mages Guild as the Dark Brotherhood is to the Thieves Guild. While roleplay reasons may limit a person's choice (for example, a petty thief who isn't a killer per se would be fine with the Thieves, but not the DB), there's no game mechanic reason why being archmage would matter.

If the intent here is for the character to be archmage to prove he's the most powerful mage, who's to say another lesser mage isn't in some basement toying with magics beyond that of the archmage's assumed level?

Just tossing in my 2 cents worth...

-Jon

[Anonymous]

The point behind it was that they would be under different circumstances if mannimarco had or had not actually attacked Cyrodiil. Since then we have agreed that the best thing to do would be to have the necromancers not really knowing what the hell is going on either, so there are no problems with consistancy or lore.

[lb003g0676]

It's a nice idea that you could go straight to the necromancers missions, but it would be good if the missiosn were open to all levels of mage. Even if you didn't join the mages guild at all, or if your are arch mage.

Maybe becuase the King of Worms is a Psjic, he could tell that you are capable of much more power. So it doesn't matter what level or skills you are, it seems you can become more powerful, and make the storyline completely unrelated. Perhpas saying, the King of Worms rumoured in Cyrodiil, is just a fake. Whetehr you have heard of him or not, taht sounds plaiusible.

here's the Important Part

If it were a choice between having to be archmage (or quite high up in the Cyrodiil mages guild, once the fake King of Worms has been revealed) , or just being a 'not even joined the mages guild' chgaracter, or very low in the ranks of the arcane. I would say the First one. The Higher levels would produce a better storyline.

[lb003g0676]

Scourge Barrow, I am glad to see the Kind of Worms isn't above (for want of a better word) bitches.

[url=http://img153.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scourgebarrowindragonstar8ke.jpg][img]http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/929/scourgebarrowindragonstar8ke.th.jpg[/img][/url]

I want to make this my best work of photoshop yet.

BTW, thats the King of Worms in The throne, and I want to put a lot of detial into his crown, I ahve a plan for his general look.

[Anonymous]

The King of Worms is dead/ascended.

Long live the king of worms.

[lb003g0676]

So that drawing is impossible? Well, can you help me apply it to something that is possible?

[Anonymous]

Erm...the new head honcho there?

[lb003g0676]

Whats all this discussion about then? I want it about the dude you're helping turn into a Lich... sorry thats Mannimarco, isn't it? I'll just shut up and draw.

[Sload]

The Higher levels would produce a better storyline.

Prove it.

And thanks for bumping this, I missed it when I moved quest stuff to the quest forum.

[lb003g0676]

Slaod, it would becuase the Mages Guild storyline has already introduced all the necromancy.. and you ahving alreayd killed Mannimarco, means there has to be an unusual twist to the story.

[Sload]

Except Scourge Barrow is a few hundred miles away from the mages' guild stuff. They don't know he's dead, he could've abandoned them completely if we wanted him to, and their quest can go in a completely different direction should we chose so.

And thems was right, it don't make no sense 'tall if the Archmage joins the necromancers.

[lb003g0676]

But it can add a special twist if you're from a higher level. From a lower level sucks. I will argue, although I know it's pointless (it's already been decided). And I know you read my post through Sload, But that was just a forced opinion. I'd like it if people from any Level in the MG, to be able to do it. It seems unfair to block someone off of it for one reason or another.