Vampires in Hammerfell

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:50 pm

In the regions of Hammerfell that were in Daggerfall there were a number of vampiric clans, how many vampiric clans should TR put in? After all, the place is called Hammerfell.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:33 pm

Harke the Apostle wrote:After all, the place is called Hammerfell.

Whats that got to do with it?

There are a total of 9 vampiric clans around the Iliac bay, according to Vampires of the Iliac Bay:

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b102_complete_vampires.shtml

Sure that doesnt really include most of Hammerfell but thinking of it as 9 through High Rock and Hammerfell might be a good idea. But lets look at their cultures: High Rock accepts magic and doesnt hold a particular grudge against any undead. Plus they are essentially a mongrel race anyway so I doubt they have many prejudices about purity. Hammerfell on the other hand is pretty anti-magic, and has a strong 'us and them' ethic due to the Crown/Forebear thing (see the Redguard Comic). Also consider the landscape. High Rock has forests and the like. Shelter. It would be fine to get from one end to the other for vampires. Hammerfell on the other hand is decidedly deserty. Not exactly prime territory for the creatures of the night. Thus I think that total of 9 clans would be weighted much more in favour of High Rock. Im going to go out on a limb and say this: 7 north of the bay, one east (on the river) and one south, in the Dragontail Mountains.

I would make it so that there is one clan actually in Hammerfell, up in the mountains, and then there is another just over the border with only outposts in Hammerfell.

Besides that, werent vampire clans taken out of Cyrodiil?

And shouldnt this be in the lore forum

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:56 pm

Jale wrote:
Harke the Apostle wrote:After all, the place is called Hammerfell.
Whats that got to do with it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_Film_Productions

Jale wrote:There are a total of 9 vampiric clans around the Iliac bay, according to Vampires of the Iliac Bay:

http://til.gamingsource.net/dfbooks/b102_complete_vampires.shtml

Besides that, werent vampire clans taken out of Cyrodiil?

I wouldn't know. What you say about the desert makes sense. However it is also a pretty secluded area where, abominations might be perpetrated undisturbed.

Jale wrote:And shouldnt this be in the lore forum

I couldn't make my mind up, but it seems I don't have the Lore. Maybe some kind moderator can please move it?

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:20 pm

They live in ruins. If there are ruins in the desert that would be prime realestate for vampires. They are harmed by the sun, not by heat. As long as they stay below ground during the daytime they're safe. And what does Hammerfell being anti magic really have to do with vampires. Vampirism is a disease after all, and the carriers are of all different classes. I would say maybe two or three large clans in Hammerfell. They are like the goblin clans in Oblivion, they exist but you can't actually join them. Unless we change it back to Morrowind rules where you join the clan you got bitten by.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:28 pm

Tyrion wrote:They live in ruins. If there are ruins in the desert that would be prime realestate for vampires. They are harmed by the sun, not by heat.

They also live in caves. Apart from the sun they also have a weakness to fire, so it's unlikely they would like to be hot.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:32 pm

In Hammerfell, where worship of Arkay is strongest, the dead are almost always subject to Arkay's Law. There are exceptions after large battles or in remote areas where death occurs far from meddlesome priests.

From 'On the Preparation of the Corpse'

Arkay = people who hate vampires and all the undead. Remote areas = the mountains or the centres of deserts. Centres of Deserts = hot and a long way from prime feeding grounds. Mountains = not too far from places like skaven, dragonstar etc.

Thats my logic on why if there are vampires there, then they are in the mountains. That and the fact that the old king of worms was trying to unite the undead and necromancers (i read somewhere...).

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:35 pm

Damn, thats right! I forgot, I was watching the Blade series on TV so I had the wrong vampires in mind. I would still call for a couple of rival vampire clans up in the mountains for flavor though. Just one vampire clan would be boring unless there is either a: lore to support only one vampire clan in Hammerfell, or b: not enough vampire friendly habitat to support more than one group of vampires. Remember there should be nearby settlements because they have to feed.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:40 pm

Its reasonably small anyway. I was thinking more a native Hammerfell one and then one that just spills over into the area from Orsinium

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:06 pm

Two! Why not more? Nine may be a bit much, but two clans is too little, there should be at least three living clans, and the abandonned lair of the fourth clan somewhere else in Hammerfell.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:11 pm

Because there are nine around the WHOLE iliac bay, and Hammerfell is very anti-vampire, while High Rock is not exactly against them in any concerted way. One and a half seems reasonable to me.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:11 pm

I prefer quality to quantity. We'll see when we get there, but I prefer the idea of only 1 vampire faction, 1 witches' coven, and 1 necromancer's thing as the evil Dragontail d00ds.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:32 pm

One is called Antosis another is called Khulari then there's Selenu and Montalion. That makes four.

Here is the link:

http://til.gamingsource.net/fsg/xanarticle1.shtml#iliacbay

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:42 pm

So there's 4. Oblivion is probably about 50,000 times smaller than Daggerfall scalewise, so that means .00008 clans.

Do you prefer less than a one hundred thousandth of a clan, or 1?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:56 pm

I say making a story about a vampire war of ethnic cleansing in the last 28 years is way more interesting than having 4 crammed into a small space. How about Selenu was pushed south after Sentintel got all its new power, straight into Anthosis lands, and a nasty battle ensued, destroying all of Selenu and leaving only dregs of Anthosis behind, most of whom have now been picked off by Arkay worshippers. Montalion withdrew back to Wayrest because of the troubles, and so Khulari is the only one who is still a power, and has the antagonists of Lysrezi from the north to contend with.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:01 pm

As long as it's probable Lore-wise, why not? But I like Lore references, so the names of the other clans should appear if only in conversation or literature.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:09 pm

Harke the Apostle wrote:As long as it's probable Lore-wise, why not? But I like Lore references, so the names of the other clans should appear if only in conversation or literature.

If we do quests related to the vampires, be it hunting them or actually working for the remaining clan, then they would definitely show up. Hunting down the last few Anthosis could be part of the Alik'r Desert mages guild quest.

Dexter · Post by **Dexter** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:25 pm

I think Hammerfell would be one of the worst places for vampires to reside, mostly because of reasons Jale pointed out. Hammerfell is, if nothing else, a very sunny region. The desert would be absolutely uninhabitable for vampires, because of the sun factor, and also because prey would be extremely rare (and hunting prey would be insanely dangerous).
They could concievably exist in the mountains, far away enough from the cities, but again, prey is an issue. It isn't enough for vampires to be in a region where they can stay safely out of the sun and away from the groups that want to butcher them. They also need a steady source of people to feed off of.
I feel that if we are going to have vampire clans in Hammerfell, there should be no more than 2. A vampire "clan" should consist of one large lair of vampires, and perhaps one or two smaller (much smaller) caves in a fairly close proximity to the main lair.
Piggybacking on the Redguard outlook on creatures such as vampires, a guild quest in Hammerfell could feature the PC helping erradicate one of the vampire clans.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:34 pm

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/stanley/hfpolitical1.png[/img]

Thats the questmap according to sload, so making it the honus of the Elhinir quest region would probably be a sound move, unless we use vampires as a stepping stone up to necromancers in the Skaven (read: Scourg Barrow) area.

oh and thanks for moving this to lore

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:02 pm

Skaven and Dragonstar will deal with the evil baddies and Hegathe with the Dwemer. I'm thinking in the Elinhir region there'll be a MG dealing with Ayleid studies, but not in Elinhir. And then maybe one in Taneth.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:12 am

I was just reading an old discussion about Dwemer ruins in Hammerfell. A few members agreed that there should be three Dwemer ruins in Hammerfell: Stross M'Kai, Volenfell and Fang Lair. The Vampires could live in Volenfell (near Gilane) this would solve three problems
1). They'd have a good place to hide for the sun.
2). Ample prey
3). Even the most zealous vampire hunter would think twice before entering the dangerous Dwemer ruins.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:41 am

They're living in the Dragontails, where it is not as sunny. Volenfell will be all about mages guild investigating it. It's been suggesting that large parts of it should even be unknown at the beginning the quest.

This is my decision and you'll have to present a very strong case to shake it. As I've said before, necromancers and vampires and witches can all be in the Dragontails.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:01 am

Sload wrote:They're living in the Dragontails, where it is not as sunny. Volenfell will be all about mages guild investigating it. It's been suggesting that large parts of it should even be unknown at the beginning the quest..

I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the Dragontails. It's just that the arguments given so far for the vamps not living in the desert are quite flawed. The vamps wouldn't usually be outside when it was sunny anyway.

Sload wrote:This is my decision and you'll have to present a very strong case to shake it. As I've said before, necromancers and vampires and witches can all be in the Dragontails.

They can as long as the 'action' is spread around a bit, but I'm sure you have it all figured out.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:19 am

Sload wrote:So there's 4. Oblivion is probably about 50,000 times smaller than Daggerfall scalewise, so that means .00008 clans.

Do you prefer less than a one hundred thousandth of a clan, or 1?

This seems more like an argument in favor of a larger scale than an actual dismissal of evidence

I'd like to see a united group of the former vampire clans struggling to maintain a small "empire" in their corner of the Dragontails. The political instability of Hammerfell would give the vampires a perfect opportunity to unite under one clan, and to work their subtle political manipulations amongst the various human factions. Fang Lair could be the ideal Vampire citadel simply because of the name, but also because it has a lot of dark corridors and ancient defenses.

Of course, this is counting on the vampires being something other than just flavorless enemies in various tombs. If we want to go that route..

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:42 am

I was going to suggest fang lair, but I thought it might have a bit of an outcry against it, seeing as it should be a very good location. I dont think the 'empire' would work out well, I prefer the idea of one tribe surviving a war.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:32 am

If it were one clan with members of different characters and stat bonusses...

@ everyone: What's in Fang Lair?
If there's an ueber Dark Brotherhood Sword Singer showdown there, putting the vamps in will be a bit more challenging.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:45 pm

Fang Lair is a Moria-like complex created by the "Dwarves of Kragen", which were presumably one subclan (a minor House, to draw an analogy to the Chimer/Dunmer) of the Rourken clan.

Legend has it a dragon then invested the place, giving it its name. Arena's in-game pic displayed prominantly a big dragon statue, so the legend is maybe just a legend, our Kragen dwarves having simply chosen the dragon for their emblem.

I've an Arena save in Stonekeep. I'll try to go to Fang Lair.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:51 pm

If it worked and you could make some screenshots/ photo's that would be really great resource material...

[off topic]We should really have a Dwemer architecture discussion or refresh the old one. Maybe a WSG with the Dwemer architecture of the three ruins would be in order?There would need to be at least two styles, Stros M'Kai, and Kragen, both would be different from the Dwemer Style in Morrowind[/off topic]

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:08 pm

Arena's still a cubic game, and it was from before the dwarves were the Dwemer.

The introduction screen:
[url=http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fanglairza9.png][img]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3044/fanglairza9.th.png[/img][/url]

The entrance:
[url=http://img152.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fanglair01and6.png][img]http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/7545/fanglair01and6.th.png[/img][/url]
(I took the screenshot a second too late, while trying to get a dark background that would allow to read the "messagebox" displayed, talking about dwarven-hewn tunnels going for miles and miles.)

The entrance, lower level:
[url=http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fanglair02aiz9.png][img]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9271/fanglair02aiz9.th.png[/img][/url]
There are lots of tunnels like this.

Skeletons:
[url=http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fanglair03fl1.png][img]http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4717/fanglair03fl1.th.png[/img][/url]
You could say they are dwemer skeletons...

Within a mine shaft:
[url=http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fanglair04zt6.png][img]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/1906/fanglair04zt6.th.png[/img][/url]
The ceiling suffers from an inappropriate texture, as nothing's volcanic. Still, it helps navigation because it's bright.

The Temple:
[url=http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fanglair05jo2.png][img]http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6608/fanglair05jo2.th.png[/img][/url]
This is where the first bit of the Staff of Chaos is located. That time I managed to capture the messagebox.

Then I got slain by spiders arriving too fast for my healing spells, and noticed my last save was still in Stonekeep.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:25 pm

Fang Lair would be okay if we make it clear that its a new development, Vampires being there.

Dark Brotherhood vs Swordslingers????

a) WHY?
b) No DB...Kogotong.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:59 pm

I'm confused. Isn't KogoTong Dunmer? (I mean, I know it's not Morag Tong or Camonna Tong, but the words/language) Like, for Unbreakable...thingie?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:00 pm

Yeh its sorta ex-pat dunmer. Its the 'missing link' between Morag Tong and Dark Brotherhood.

Post by **Haplo** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:06 pm

Oh! How'd it get to...Hammerfell? Excommunicate? Oh wait, didn't the Dunmer live in HF a LONG time ago?

EDIT: as Chimer?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:09 pm

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:11 pm

Jale wrote:Fang Lair would be okay if we make it clear that its a new development, Vampires being there.

Dark Brotherhood vs Swordslingers????

a) WHY?
b) No DB...Kogotong.

I didn't mean anything specific. It was just an example to show that there should be only one thing 'going on' in Fang Lair' at a time.

@ Gez Brilliant pictures!
Those double torch-holders might be interesting to remake.
I like the idea of Dwemer skeletons, but they should be dressed up in Dwemer clothing, and not strolling around. maybe they would also not be re-animatable, a strange side-effect of the disappearance of the Dwarves. They wouldn't interfere with the vamps then.

@ everyone: Where vampires around when the Dwemer lived?

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:03 pm

Oh come on people. A united clan of Vampires trying to keep themselves alive in an increasingly hostile province, while at the same time fighting amongst themselves and manipulating human leaders is so much cooler than either the flavorless Vampires of Oblivion or an all out war.

We can call the united clan the "Camarilla."

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:08 pm

Harke the Apostle wrote: @ Gez Brilliant pictures!
Those double torch-holders might be interesting to remake.
I like the idea of Dwemer skeletons, but they should be dressed up in Dwemer clothing, and not strolling around. maybe they would also not be re-animatable, a strange side-effect of the disappearance of the Dwarves. They wouldn't interfere with the vamps then.

@ everyone: Where vampires around when the Dwemer lived?

Its likely they were...Its not like there was a date when vampirism was first documented. I would assume that the Dwemer knew of them.

The story goes that the Dwemer turned to dust, so its more likely that the skeletons would have come in later...after all the place isnt too far away from Scourg Barrow in the grand scheme of things...its fairly likely that a few necromancers would have poked around.

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:28 pm

@ Eyeball88: The vampires in Oblivion had the flavour sucked out of them.

Does the name Camarilla exist somewhere in the ES world? Otherwise, we should stick with the names from Daggerfall.

@ Jale: I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think we should do Dwemer skeletons then. But the Dwemer should definitely leave something there.

Somehow, Dwemer and vampires donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t seem to fit together very well.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:37 pm

Eyeball: True. Lets say that in their arrogance they started off fighting each other but then had to merge to survive. Bad name though

Harke: The berne clan was based in a Dwemer Ruin in Morrowind. No reason why they would avoid them really, after removing the obvious robot threat.

Here is my suggested timeline of the Vampiric Conflicts:

After winning their part of the war, Sentinel troops turned attentions back to home. The first coven to fall was that of the Selenu clan in Sentinel and then later their outpost on the island of Cybaedies. After these sanctums fell they searched for more, discovering the sect in neighbouring kingdoms...while one raid in Ayasofya was sucessful, the string of cells along the coast yielded nothing...when sanctuarys were found they were already deserted.

Abibon-Gora was the last stronghold of the Selenu. They had no options. To the West was the Imperial garrison of Chasetown. To the east were the advancing Sentinel troops, now hell-bent on their destruction after this catastrophic rout. Their only option was to head southeast into the desert: the lands of the Anthosis clan.

The Selenu were all but wiped out in the coming weeks. The desert was cruel to their mortal cattle and soon food ran short. Stragglers of the group fell prey to the Sentinel Vanguard. Shelter from the sun was also sparse. Eventually, depleted to a mere few dozen vampires, they met the Anthosis. Weakened, they surrendered. At first, they were taken to Anthosis strongholds for imprisonment and the promise of execution.

However, now the sentinel forces caught up with them. The process was repeated, but this time the Anthosis were warned. Sentinel casualties were heavy, but then they sent for help from Forebear allies in Taneth and Rihad. Soon the vampires fought on two fronts: the Sentinel hoard from the north and the other Forebears in the South. Gradually the Vampires were squeezed East into the Mountains. Here, they simply vanished. The miltiary forces were no use in such a search, and the Vampires were considered routed.

Of course, this was hostile territory to both the Anthosis and their Selenu captives. The Khulari harried them as they tried to find a place to regroup. Eventually the activies caught the attention of Scourg Barrow. Through clever diplomacy, a treaty was brokered by the wise lichs of the necromancers, who knew that their undead allies would be more useful if they were not at each other's throats. indeed, the Khulari were not without there own problems, being forced deeper into the mountains by Wayrest troops and the knights of the scarab from Totambu. The new clan was named the Quixin.

Soon after, the united forced of the Quixin found the ideal citadel in the form of the ancient dwemer ruins of Fang Lair. Clearing a path through the resident machine guards, they founded their new Vampire Order under the rule of a tribunal: the three old elders of the Selenu, Khulai and Anthosis clans.

Footnote: During these events, the Montallion vampires retracted into High Rock due to Totambu and Wayrest pressure.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:24 pm

Heh, no, Camarilla is from Vampire: The Masquerade, the RPG by White Wolf studios. I've been enjoying their vampiric lore so much that I'm now committed to sneaking snippets; it made vampires seem cool to me. Before it was just Blade or Underworld, minimal story, tight-leather killing.

Discussing the history of Vampirism (ie: the first vampire, where they came from, etc) is probably beyond us in this project, just like giving an ending to the Disappearance of the Dwarves would be. But after watching the beginning of Underworld: Evolution, I shudder to think of how bad vampire history can be. "One brother was bitten by a bat, and became the first vampire. The other brother was bitten by a wolf, and became the first werewolf."

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:49 pm

@ Eyeball: Camarilla is strangely reminiscent of the latino vampiresses from From Dusk Till Dawn. Let's not go there.

@ Jale: Yes, so was Quarra. The story was plausible enough, but does every single mobile Dwemer creation have to attack the PC? Fang lair was only a mine, after all.

Tamriel Rebuilt

Vampires in Hammerfell

Vampires in Hammerfell

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