The Oblivion engine, and MQ "selector"

Doedel · Post by **Doedel** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:18 am

So I was thinking about it. It's been mentioned before how future provinces from TR will most likely be on other engines; to me, that seems somewhat... unlikable. First off, if every time a new game comes out, we "ditch" the last one (not to say Morrowind has been ditched, I know it's planned to finish off Morrowind Province but you know what I mean -- after that, it's kaputz), then we never will have one, massive Tamriel that the player can live in, and be able to walk from Elswyr to Vvardenfell, because the different provines will be on different engines.

So I say, stick with Oblivion. Personally I see nothing wrong with Oblivion, and if it were up to me, Bethesda would NOT make another new game and would simply essentially do what TR is doing; developing all future releases on the Oblivion engine in the Oblivion world, with each release being a new province with a new MQ and everything.

Anyway, I'm off to petition Bethesda to do just that...

Oh, almost forgot -- after Hammerfell is released we will be in need of a "Province selector", won't we? So that the player can either start in the Imperial Province with Oblivion's MQ, or in Hammerfell with Hammerfell's MQ. Don't know if its been mentioned before.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:25 am

Hammerfell is an expansion to OB, the player can play both at the same time. Also, Hammerfell is about the only province that 'can' be created in the OB engine, at least in the same world space. The other provinces extend past technical limitations.

New games give us new tools, new motivation, and a new audience. TR must keep up with the times, or we too will be seen as a perverbial '5 dollar deal' in the back of stores for the games we mod for. Trust me, if Daggerfall came with a CS, no one would still be modding for it.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:27 am

Doedel wrote:So I say, stick with Oblivion. Personally I see nothing wrong with Oblivion, and if it were up to me, Bethesda would NOT make another new game and would simply essentially do what TR is doing; developing all future releases on the Oblivion engine in the Oblivion world, with each release being a new province with a new MQ and everything.

There are quite a few things about Oblivion that make it less than ideal to work with, long-term. The CS crashing whenever LOD data is generated at a certain distance from the starting point is one of them, which will become more prevalent if we go along: High Rock would be a huge problem, for example, and Summerset Isles would have no solution other than seperate world space.

That's just one of many problems we've run in to so far.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:33 am

You are suggesting that we not switch game engines now? We don't even know how many years before such an opportunity presents itself. The obvious course of action is to do nothing.

And no, we will not need some silly button because Hammerfell is added on to Cyrodiil, it is not a seperate game.

Hammerfell is an expansion to OB, the player can play both at the same time. Also, Hammerfell is about the only province that 'can' be created in the OB engine, at least in the same world space. The other provinces extend past technical limitations.

What do you mean?

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:41 am

The other proninces pass the LOD boundaries significantly.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:43 am

Sload wrote:What do you mean?

High Rock is, well, too /high/ .. The LOD is higher than 97-100 north. Skyrim will suffer from the same problem along the northern edge, etc.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:44 am

I assume you must mean vertically, because only Summerset and High Rock extend further west.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:51 am

Yes, vertically. Valenwood, Eslweyr and BlackMarsh are too far south, and Morrowind is too far east. Cell 0,0 is somewhere south west of the IC, so it kinda moves the center point to an awkward position relative to the rest of the continent.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:54 am

We got lucky in our choice then.

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:59 am

Sload wrote:We got lucky in our choice then.

There was always the option of seperate world spaces, if Hammerfell hadn't been eligible.

Edit: Which we'll end up doing for the Chain islands anyway, I'm assuming.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 3:20 am

Realize that if we tried creating every province for one engine it would take a really really really long time. we're not even done with the rest of Morrowind for the TesIII engine. Creating the whole continent would take decades.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:27 am

Eyeball: Great excuse to put more boats in, eh

Doedel: The MQ for Hammerfell won't start from the getgo, you will still begin in the Imperial City Jail and have the emperor, yadda yadda yadda. Think more like the bloodmoon one: you heard that stuff was going on in Solsthiem and went there to look, eventually getting caught up in a MQ.

Noir: sadly, people are still modding for daggerfall, making emulators and the like.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:21 am

Jale wrote:Noir: sadly, people are still modding for daggerfall, making emulators and the like.

[img]http://gez117.free.fr/smilies/what.gif[/img] Why "sadly"?

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:25 am

Gez wrote:
Jale wrote:Noir: sadly, people are still modding for daggerfall, making emulators and the like.
[img]http://gez117.free.fr/smilies/what.gif[/img] Why "sadly"?

[img]http://217.158.99.53/images/smiles/deadhorse.gif[/img]

Almost literally

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:04 pm

So, you're also of the mind we should just delete all the TR work on Morrowind, and that all the TR work on Oblivion will also have to be deleted as soon as Bethesda releases TES 5, I suppose.

Even if TES 5 does not have an editor and is unmoddable, it would be beating a dead horse to continue to play with TES 4 once TES 5 is out, right?

Sorry, I don't think so. And seemingly Bethesda doesn't, either, seeing that Daggerfall is not put to abandonware.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:55 pm

You should be a politician. Only people like that can twist my words into such utter utter bullshit totally disconnected to what I was saying.

Morrowind is not dead, as people still play and mod for it. Daggerfall has no editor. Go to the elder scrolls forum. Look at the forum catagories. Oblivion, Morrowind...wheres daggerfall? See it? Oh yeah its right at the bottom in the 'Past Games' forum. Its lower down the forum list than the MOBLIE games.

Daggerfall barely had a modding community when it was their main product. Why would it have one now. Daggerfall hasnt had a patch in many years, and its not even available on their website anymore, that I can find. ARENA has more support, since they released it free.

Dont presume to twist my words in future.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:37 pm

And the lore forum is even lower, with the community forum being the lowest. Want to infer something from that?

Daggerfall was not released with an editor, but it still had a modding community, and the people at Interkarma are still working on new engines.

As far as I know, third party tools have been made for Daggerfall, Morrowind, and Oblivion. [url=http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=488327]And for no other TES games.[/url]

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:16 pm

I played Daggerfall back in the day. But times change, and so do peoples interests. If someone released a huge province sized mod for Daggerfall who would be there to play it? Nobody, thats who.

I admit it was a great game in its day, but its day has long since passed. I hope that Morrowind will be finished. I'd love to contribute to the project before it is finished. I hope that you guys don't pull the plug because Morrowind is over four years old now. There is too much work there to simply just throw away. But we are now modding for a niche community where the attention has shifted to a shiny new game with a larger audience.

Its simply the way the world works. Something newer and better will always come along and replace what came before it. CD-ROMs replaced floppy disks and cassette tapes, DVDs ousted the VHS. Color made black and white look crude, and yes unfortunately Oblivion makes Morrowind look primitive.

I still play Morrowind, I love the game and modding for it. But how many other people will stick with it when the attention has moved to Oblivion? How many people outside our own circle will care if we finish Morrowind? Mabye these questions don't mean anything. Maybe we just mod for our own private use. But I'm of the mind that says "What good is a book that only a few will read? What good is the song that only a few hundred hear? What good is the cure that only cures a handful?"

*rant*

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:29 pm

Well said. My personal thought on modding for MW is just that. After the years I put into the mod, I find it almost pointless to continue with the release of OB. I want my work to be seen and enjoyed by a large audience, and I'm affraid as MW gets older and older, that the audience will slowly disapear, along with the mods made for it.

Though, there are people here at TR that mod for MW that simply enjoy doing it, and they could care less how old the game is or who will enjoy their work, they do it because they love modding. And then there are the people who just don't have OB and continue to mod for MW because it's their only option.

To each their own.

Menotex · Post by **Menotex** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:12 pm

To stop work on MW becouse we want more attention is silly. Honestly everyone agrees. We continue work for MW and focus on Oblivion. Our goal as I understood it, was to create the world as best as we can becouse we want to. Not becouse it's popular or for attention. To mod or not to mod. We all have lives and this is our hobby. It's a pastime that allows us to do what we love without having to get employed.

If we release Morrowind complete and perfect. Much respect will come our way from the modding comunity. So let's just do it well and have fun. This site is as much about learning as it is about making. And am happy to be apart of this group. (Despite the fact I've yet to do anything.)

Harke the Apostle · Post by **Harke the Apostle** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:19 pm

I haven't been a modder for years, but since I was promoted I haven't opened the editor for Morrowind for the reason Noirgrim stated. However, by the time Hammerfell is finished chances are:

1). I won't be around
2). Bethesda is bankrupt
3). No one will be interested in Oblivion anymore.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:21 pm

Noirgrim,

No one can see your work if it isnt released.

I love your work on the map1, map 4 is missing a few pieces, all the rest look awesome.

What good is your works if you cannot share it.

Torment of tantulas:

basically tantalus broke into a room, and his punishment was that he would stand in a room of water. everytime he tried to drink it, it would recede, only to rise when he rose his head.

The water was always out of reach.
What i am trying to say is:

What good is having anything whatsoever, and not having the ability to share it. it just isnt worth anythjing if you cannot share. I know this from experience.

I hope tes3 gets done, so we can all enjoy it. and tamriel rebuilt will never be, because it takes so long to complete it. MW:4 years, OB: nil.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:22 pm

I am still going to mod with Morrowind, but it seems less and less feasable to continue making large mods for it in the future. After we're finished with the Morrowind province that will be it for me and the Morrowind CS. Not to say I won't still play the game, I most certainly will, its just that if we take another four years to make another huge mod for Morrowind very few will have any interest in it when its finished. You also have to take into account the number of people working on the project. So few people working on Morrowind will slow progress to a crawl.

No, after Morrowind thats it, I will move to Oblivion. I'm sure the same issues will arise with Oblivion in a few years too. What will you do then? When your shiny new engine is outdated and interest is moving to a new game. Morrowind WILL be finished. Hammerfell WILL be finished too in a few more years, and when TESV comes out we will make yet another province, and we will stick it out and finish it. It seems pointless to leave it all behind, especially when we will end up in the same place in a few years.

So basically I'm saying this: the same problems are going to reaccur with each new game, and we have to accept it and decide whether or not we want to finish the project. If not then we will probably never finish anything.

I agree with Noir, but we have to finish Morrowind first. If for no other reason than to prove we can finish a project of this scale, and continue to do so in the future.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:04 pm

Bear in mind that with Morrowind it wasn't like there was a team of modders waiting to start as soon as the game came out. Rome wasn't built in a day and TR didn't start with the skills, organisation and team that it has now. I have far higher hopes for Hammerfell than I ever did for Morrowind.

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:11 am

Just so, but it would still be nice to finish Morrowind. Hopefully Hammerfell will run smoother. I hate to sound like the nay-sayer here. But such things are bound to come up when you work with two projects at the same time. People tend to gravitate towards the newer one.

Jale said:
I have far higher hopes for Hammerfell than I ever did for Morrowind.

But wait Jale, you make it sound as though you have given up on Morrowind.

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:59 am

Alot of us have given up, because even before oblivion was announced, you could couint on one hand the people that wanted to do quests (without them, what's the point?). In morrowind's engine, making quests is more a pain in the ass than getting raped by an eggbeater, not to mention they're much less flexible than Oblivion's system.

DiegoDraw · Post by **DiegoDraw** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:00 am

sirwootalot123 wrote:Alot of us have given up, because even before oblivion was announced, you could couint on one hand the people that wanted to do quests (without them, what's the point?). In morrowind's engine, making quests is more a pain in the ass than getting raped by an eggbeater, not to mention they're much less flexible than Oblivion's system.

Working with both systems, I find it completely the opposite. SCRIPTING is a bit more difficult in Morrowind, seeing as it lacks some of the many globals that Oblivion has included so kindly, but the dialogue and questing on Morrowind (as well as NPC's) are far simpler to me.

~D-Draw

sirwootalot123 · Post by **sirwootalot123** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:00 am

sorry, I got it mixed up. I knew it was ONE of the things I hadn't the slightest clue how to do...

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:03 am

The quest system of Oblivion is more potentially powerful than Morrowind's, but as a result it's a bit more complicated. Morrowind quests are just journal entries, scripts and dialogues are used to interact with these entries but that's all. Oblivion is richer in this respect.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:47 am

Tyrion wrote: But wait Jale, you make it sound as though you have given up on Morrowind.

I havent. Map 1 is coming on in leaps and bounds and I bet it will be out by the end of the year in some form. I just never really thought 'one day this WILL be totally finished and polished'. With Hammerfell, I think it will be.

SkyShadowing · Post by **SkyShadowing** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:34 pm

I post this as a Morrowind/Oblivion player and a Morrowind modder (simply because I was forced to get Oblivion for 360 due to my PC being 5-6 years old).

There are a lot of big projects still going on for Morrowind. The TR project is one of the more prominent ones.

But there's also the Romance mod, where you can have children of your VERY OWN. And then there's the Infinite View Distance project, which has given Morrowind the same LOD as Oblivion.

Morrowind is not dead- it took a large blow when Oblivion came out, but alot of more prominent modders have reverted back to Morrowind after Oblivion.

Also, I can forsee more provinces for Oblivion in TR's future. Simply because the random generator takes out so much of the work that kept a good deal of massive landmass mods for MW coming out.

Both games are great in their own respects. I still even play Daggerfall from time to time, but the quests in that game are very difficult, simply because "go to this dungeon and get this item" points to a dungeon the size of PLANET EARTH.

All ES games are great (but I never played Redguard or Battlespire, so I can't vouch for those). So just respect- if some people want to stay with Morrowind, that's their perogative. I'm going to get Oblivion for PC so I can mod it, but I will go back to Morrowind from time to time.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:56 am

how can ugenerate the landscape in ob cs?
i forgot about it bein mentioned by the devs, and now i remembered. i dont see it there.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:20 am

Heightmaps

Doedel · Post by **Doedel** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:02 am

That's somewhat disconcerting, that every new province made will be on another engine...

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:09 am

Why?

We can't turn out all the provices for one engine. Not enough space. Even if we wanted to it would take waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:43 pm

I was playing around with my tes4 heightmap tool (the colored window) in the tamirle world space. i didnt save it after i was done. (i closed the editor using the X). Now when i play in the area i screwed with (imperial city and weye) i have trees in the air and cut landscapes all over there. Does heightmap save automatically after each change? and if so how do i revert to the original without uninstallation?

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:51 pm

Hmmmmmmmm

you should have a "restore defaults" setting somewheres

but its really odd because unless you save it to an esp, nothing saves and you cant set the oblivion esm to your active file

try seeing if it did save it somewhere

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:42 am

No esps or nadda, still looks cut off and very ugly.

it is scary the way it layers, you can see the trees, the mountins in the background, and the imperial city looks like its in mid air from far away.

I will probably have to reinstall ob, unless someone can provide me the lastest untouched oblivion esm, or a way to restore the oblivion.bsa.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:08 am

I have tried looking, but no default buttons.

I am so damn tired of this. it messes up all my games loaded.

I was playing madman.ess when i was returning to the scenes of my massacre, all the area was cut and layered.
(and yes, the imperial city is no more; al people have been killed).

still, i aint enjoyin this. i scrapped my customized morrowind.ini to fix this, only to still have the same problems.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:05 am

It sounds like some of your LOD files are curropt or missing. You need to do a reinstall.

Tamriel Rebuilt

The Oblivion engine, and MQ "selector"

The Oblivion engine, and MQ "selector"

Re: The Oblivion engine, and MQ "selector"

mw

the cs

heightmap generators

heightview

heightmap