Art Contest: Hammerfell In-Game Map

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:28 pm

Political Names

Agreed. 'County' was just a place holder. Principalities is a good one to use. However, if we use Principality for the political boundaries it would not make sense to name the region around Sentinel a kingdom. Hammerfell is the kingdom and Sentinel is the seat of that kingdom. So, just like the Imperial City does not have a 'political bounday name' I will remove the one next to Sentinel. So, all of the cities will be 'Principality [blah]' and I will remove the one next to Sentinel.

Totambu Forest

I will move it up a bit.

DragonStar

I will draw somesort of divide thing through the middle of the city. But remember, these are just placeholder cities for now. It will be up to the city's claimer to get the layout and lore right. As far as how close it is to the border, it is as close as it should be for gameplay reasons. Just like you can't walk right up to the border of the CD map, we need some sort of buffer between the border of HF and SR. ATM I think it's close enough to the border to be considered a border city. As for a path, the 'path' on the map isn't every road, it's just the main road. There are/should be many more roads created by ext claimers that attach to settlments, caves, etc.

'S' Issue

I will change the S's to like the CD map's.

'Helgathe'

I will fix the spelling.

The Chain and other islands

The Chain and the islands around it will not be in the Tamriel World Space, they will be in a seperate world space and will be traveled to in an undecided method. I will draw them on the map but in 'low detail' like Summerset Isle. We can draw a seperate map for these islands that will be visible when the PC travels to them. As for Stirk. I need to find out if it is appropriate to add Stirk to this map (something about whether the player decides to play the HF mod and not the Stirk mod or both at the same time, or if the Stirk mod will be apart of the HF mod) I will find out what we are doing.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:14 pm

Grammatically its Principality of [blah], or less desirably, [blah] principality.

Principality of Hegathe - Great
Hegathe Principality - Okay
Principality Hegathe - Wrong

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:10 pm

Then "County Anvil" is wrong too? I understand what you're saying, but all three are correct. The one you say is wrong is used in-game and in period. County and Principality are used interchangably and only denote size and power. So, Principality Rihad is correct. Also in period, Lords, Counts and so forth took on the names of their lands (and coat of arms) like Lord Rutherford (of the House Rutherford) or Count Northland (of County Northland). The historic King Arthor (in debate) was called Arthor because 'arthor' (or the latin equivilent) meant 'Bear' as he bore a Bear on his coat of arms.

New Topic:

Can anyone read what the names of these rivers are, or know what they are?

http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/tamriel_westmap.bmp

Edit: I also need names of the two bays (the one east of Rax and west of Rax)

@Jale: If Bethsoft says 'jump,' we jump.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:13 pm

Bah just because some hicks from maryland didnt pass English, do we have to be wrong too? The other two work better and since we are using a different word we can change the syntax.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:24 pm

County Anvil sounds good. Principality Anvil does not. And I think Stros M'kai was a principality because it's leader was a prince.

Jale wrote:
Wikipedia wrote: Rhetorical Question

A rhetorical question is a figure of speech in the form of a question posed for rhetorical effect rather than for the purpose of getting an answer. ("How many times do I have to tell you to stop walking into the house with mud on your shoes?").

A rhetorical question seeks to encourage reflection within the listener as to what the answer to the question (at least, the answer implied by the questioner) must be. When a speaker declaims, "How much longer must our people endure this injustice?" or "Will our company grow or shrink?", no formal answer is expected. Rather, it is a device used by the speaker to assert or deny something.
36 years ago (during shadowkey) it was split. 37-44 years ago (during arena), it wasnt, but city layouts from back then are...well...useless. Why should it not be a border crossing city.

1 year ago, when the PGE was written, it was also split.

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:28 pm

@Jale: If Bethsoft says 'jump,' we jump.

Thats a pre-oblivion way of looking at it. Bethesda did a lot of halfassed things in this release we don't need to follow, such as unoptimised models, 'Martin Septim', and 'The Tiber Septim Hotel'.

Whatever you choose just keep the map more of less consistent.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:38 pm

Sload wrote:County Anvil sounds good. Principality Anvil does not. And I think Stros M'kai was a principality because it's leader was a prince.

Very good point about it sounding good.

Yes Stros M'kai was a principality in that the ruler literally was a literal Prince, ie the son of the king. Principality however also applies to other terms, as the word Prince is just from latin princeps meaning 'the best of people', or the most high of aristocrats. Since Hammerfell was at one time full of kings but now there is only one high king, it seems fitting that they would just be 'princeps' these days. Not suggesting we use that term, but showing it fits.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:48 pm

Jale knows his stuff, nice.

@Morden, I agree.
@Sload, I agree.

However, to keep consistant, I will use "Principality [blah]" And let's move on, this is one of the silliest discussions thus far.

Also, please read the Edit on my last post, I need names of the rivers and bays. And please do not use ArthmodeusD's map as a reference, he put the Hunding Bay west of Rax, when really it is the bay at Stros M'Kai.

Edit: and lets come to a conclusion on that mountain range.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:57 pm

Jale knows all. *throbs*

(lies)

I think you are making the wrong decision. It just doesn't sound right to me, doesn't roll off the tongue. A simple 'of' would not only make it sound right, but also balance out the lines.

Principality
Hegathe

becomes

Principality
Of Hegathe

Good suggestion?

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:15 pm

[url=http://img272.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hfmap2xm3.jpg][img]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/1097/hfmap2xm3.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Update: I found the names of the rivers I was looking for, they are (from north to south) "Irk River", "Tark River" (both from the map releaesd before TESA: Redguard) and then "Rose River" (can't find a name anywhere so I named it after the settlement there "Roseguard."

I also discovered that it's not "Hnes Rax" but rather "Hwes Bane." I don't know at what point the spelling changed, but I am using the name off of the same map (which is the only official map that names this penisula). Also, considering the name of the penisula, I gave the bay that it contains the same name (as it is not labeled anywhere).

Note: I also added the word 'of' to the principalities (a fight not worth fighting for). I also made the changed noted in the previous posts.

If there are no other changes to be made, I would like to send this off to TIL soon (and once we get a final decision on the moutain range (admin gavel?).

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:17 pm

The roads are still wrong.

EDIT: There are changes to the roads in lore that would benifit things in general, but the roads you have appear to be invented on a whim.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:20 pm

Please post what you're referencing in lore so I can take a look.

Edit: Also, to be more helpful than to say "wrong" post the lore references and then also post a low res jpg of how you think the roads should be as you interpret them from lore.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:21 pm

All fights are worth fighting if it polishes a blemish off the shining mirror of the project

I looked at that map. I cant see how you got 'Hwes', it looks just like Hnes to me, but I can see that its really hard to tell if its Bane or Rax. Forum searchy time.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:24 pm

I didn't get it from 'that' file. I got it from the cover of the 'Redguard' CD case which clearly has it written out, along with the rivers.

On TIL it says the map is played in the into vid in Redguard, so, I grabed the CD to install it and noticed it was right on the cover.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:28 pm

Victim of JPEG compression I guess. The map, compressed, definitely says 'Hnes Rax', but if you say thats wrong then sure it must be. Though I would question the 'Hwes'. I mean, its concievable that with a few missing pixels in that font, that Bane would become Rax. No matter how I look at it, I cannot see how they would fit a W in the space of that N, and Hnes sounds better than Hwes anyway.

The only real argument for using Hnes Rax rather than Hwes Bane is that everyone knows Hnes Rax (everyone who knows hammerfell at all, that is). Its the name widely used in the community for the peninsula. Sure we could use this ridiculously obscure reference that only people who:

a) have the redguard case
b) play the mod
c) remark at the name and check it
d) have studied the map to a great extent

Will notice. Likewise we could use MK's 'correct' pronounciations of race names:

Michael : How to Say it All

Pronounced AHLD-Mary. Means 'of the First Folk.' 'Old Mary' is a Colovian corruption, and joke.

Dwemer (the Dwarves) is DWAY-mare. Means 'Deep Folk.'

Dunmer (the Dark Elves) is doon-MARE. Means 'Dark Folk.' Colovian hicks say DUHN-merh, but the Dark Elves laugh at them or strike at them, depending upon the number of hicks present.

Chimer (precursor to Dunmer) is KY-mare. Means 'Changed Folk.' Oops! This is a secret..!

Altmer (High Elves) is AHLT-mare. Means 'High Folk.'

Bosmer (Wood Elves) is BO-mare. Means 'Green Folk.'

And, finally, Daedra is EITHER DAY-druh OR DEE-druh, depending upon your inclination. DEE-druh is the Dunmeri preference and, since they made up the word, will be more acceptable come TESIII. Means 'Our Stronger, Better Ancestors.'

But most people will jsut think we are wrong.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:40 pm

[url=http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hewsbanebz5.jpg][img]http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/9956/hewsbanebz5.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Man, everything has to faught tooth and nail around here...

Edit: take a step back from the monitor screen so you don't get lost in the line screen.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:41 pm

Azura actually called them Dwaymare at the end of Morrowind.

Noir, I cite the only maps with roads of Hammerfell that I know of: The Arena map and Arth's map. I'll have a lovely version of my roads for you in a moment.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:45 pm

Ummm that says Hews Bane not Hwes Bane. That makes far far more sense, thanks for clearing it up. I couldnt see how it would be hwes, but Hews fits and I can see it now. Curse your typos :p

Teeth and nails are only mandatory when contesting grammar sensibilities and major things, like correcting names everyone has been using. Gotta be as tight everywhere as we are with reviews. Hey, you could always join Silgrad Tower

(jokies)

Sload: and yet the bosmer say bos-mer. The dunmer say Duhn-Mer. Damn imperialisation.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:47 pm

[Almost chokes on spit]

Lol, ok, I am dyslexic and the world's worst speller. I say we submit a claim to TIL with evidence and get this name cleared up in the TES community.

Corrections

-change roads to fit with lore once Sload provides reference material
-fix spelling of Hegathe

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:50 pm

Noirgrim wrote: -Change spelling of Hews Bane to Hwes Bane

:S vice versa? Dont you mean change Hwes Bane to Hews Bane.

Dyslexia is a bitch which runs in my family, no mockery here.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:53 pm

Thank you.

Sheesh, that's the way I spelled it on the map [needs more sleep and less time in front of the PC]

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:55 pm

Just move to england, they are nice to dyslexics here.

*strokes free computer*

*strokes free high-grade minidisk recorder*

*strokes lenient marking*

And im not even the one who has it

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:03 pm

I always wondered what Hnes Rax meant. Now I know it meant nothing at all, since it was Hews Bane. Funny. Less exotic-sounding, though.

Hegathe is still wrong. You removed the extraneous L, but you kept the a-replaced-by-e typo. Hegathe, not Hegethe.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:04 pm

heres s theory for ya. Hews Bane is the cyrodilic equievelent of the zoku hnes rax.

that makes100% sence to me.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:07 pm

Lady Nerevar wrote:heres s theory for ya. Hews Bane is the cyrodilic equievelent of the zoku hnes rax.

that makes100% sence to me.

Sure, if we wanted to make something up that would work. But there is nothing to support that, when we have the actual name of it on an official map. And it will also look good on our part when TIL states "Today TR has finally proven the actual name of that HF penisula and corrects the entire TES community"

Gez: thanks...

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:24 pm

Thats true, unless hardcore fans have names their babies Hnes Rax and now thats just a stupid name, everyone could be really cross. I actually prefer Hnes Rax

Whatever, we will lorical heroes!

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:26 pm

And here you are, ref'rences.

First, Arth's map and Arena's map, for references as to the lore:

http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/minibigmaproadslore31gv.jpg
http://til.gamingsource.net/maps/hammerfell.png

Now, my roads. I have towns on it for easier reference to the original roads.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/stanley/hfroads.png

My changes to the originals are:

1. Moved North Hall and Stonedale's road stuff south, to better accomodate the geography.

2. Moved the road from North Hall to Roseguard to go around the Corten Monts.

3. Added a connection between this road and the Vulkneu->Riverpoint road because they're like right next to eachother and at the same elevation.

4. Connected Karnver Falls and Taneth because it makes sense.

5. Because of the squeeze in the Hews Bay verticle collumn caused by the width limitation, the Taneth->Vulnim Gate road does not have much westward movement.

Other pieces of information:

-I also had the Tark River go further north because Riverpoint should be, you know, by a river.

-The Vulkneu, Cliff Keep, and Berkarth roads should be at different elivations. The Cliff Keep road should run along a cliff and probably be a bit more northern that it is in my picture, sorry.

-The Rose River is actually by Chaseguard, not Roseguard, and thus should be the Chase River. There's also a White Rose River in Cyrodiil south of the Imperial City, around 0,0.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:31 pm

Where does the road north of Skaven go? It get's cut off.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:35 pm

To Dragonstar, sorry. And the roads don't need to be exactly like this, of course, a few more bends in the mountain area would be nice.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:59 pm

Update:

[url=http://img207.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hfmap2tb2.jpg][img]http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/8443/hfmap2tb2.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Lutemoth · Post by **Lutemoth** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:04 pm

I assume that Hews Bane and Hnes Rax are essentially the same interpreted word, just Imperial/Redguard difference?

Needless to say, it's magnificent

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:10 pm

Beautiful. The only thing is that you may've gone overboard on the krinkles..the Helkori Plains area could be smoother. It just looks funkay.

Anonymous · Post by **Anonymous** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:17 pm

Lutemoth wrote:I assume that Hews Bane and Hnes Rax are essentially the same interpreted word, just Imperial/Redguard difference?

I think that figures, and since this is an Imperial map...Hews Bane fits better

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:21 pm

Well, I'm still waiting for someone to prove that it was ever called 'Hnes Rax.' When we submit this map to TIL, we should also make a claim to change the lore, from Hnes Rax to Hews Bane (obviously someone couldn't read the low res text and made it up somewhere along the way).

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:25 pm

Yes, I think Hnes Rax was all a misunderstanding. Today, we have made Elder Scrolls History. In a tiny sort of way.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:28 pm

we also made es history when we claimed that there were 2 ebonhearts.

oh, and the map looks amazing.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:58 pm

JESUS! It's grucking feat!

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:09 am

Ok, submitting map to TIL. Let the interest in TR come forth!

http://til.gamingsource.net/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1154824002/0#0

MAGETA · Post by **MAGETA** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:11 am

very nice, very professional looking. now it's just ages from being used...

Morden · Post by **Morden** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:49 am

Sooner then you think

Goldmoor land generation will likely start as soon as the Stirk beta is made public.