q7-2-Imp

[Haplo]

Claim type: Quest
Claim ID: TR_q7-2-Imp (#1102)
Faction: Imperial
Parent claim: TR_7-1-Imp (#1061)
Claimed by: PoHa!
Status: Approved (Progress: 100%)
Location: 1:(-8391, -930):0
Files: TR_q7-2-Imp_PoHa!_1.esp

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Winston is haunted by a mysterious ghost named Zeek.

[Sload]

At the mine, there is a miner named Winston. He is always very sad, and no one knows why. When the player talks to him, he will tell the player of his troubles. He was in a cave-in a month or so ago, and at this time, a good friend of his died. This friend's name was Zeek (He's an Argonian, it's short for Zeekhas-Ei or something). Winston has been haunted by recurring ghostly images of Zeek, always between seven and nine at night.

If the player goes to the caved-in section of the mine at this time, he'll meet the mysterious Zeek, who will walk straight out of the cave-in. They'll chat, and Zeek will request that the player take his bones to Father Ambrogio, so that he can be buried. The player does so, and the Father thanks him kindly. Winston is at ease, and Zeek's spirit appears to the player to give him something nifty and small.

The first thing the quest maker needs to do is actually add the cell, I've added the door to it but not the actually stuff inside it. Then they'll have to make Zeek, who has the 'ghosteffect' on him. Also, don't edit any miner's AI except for Zeek's. And only then if you have to.

[PoHa!]

The ghost could be a figment of his imagination. No one else can see it (has seen it) and so they don't know what to make of it. Eventually, the player learns that Winston is a skooma addict, and convinces him to stay away from the stuff.

Later, however, Winston admits that there's more to the story. While it was skooma causing the hallucinations, it was also his guilt from the past. While working in the mine, he and a friend realized that the tunnel was collapsing. While Winson made it out, his friend did not, and Winston was always too afraid (of another cave in) to go back for the body. He now asks the player to help him do so. They go into the mine, they find a ghost, and they are forced to kill it. Could have a nice dialogue afterwards, where the ghost forgives Winston, telling him he understands why he didn't come back for him.

Winston could then gather up some bones, and put take them to the graveyard, where a new tombstone could appear.

[Gnomey]

Here's my idea: You hear rumours of a miner who died not long before you came. This might be another reason for the miners' anger as they might have blamed the death on their general bad conditions. This will probably come up during the MQ, but it has nothing to do with it.

Anyway, soon afterwards Winston comes from somewhere in the mines, he's having hallucinations of the ghost of the old miner. Something should suggest he was near water, either someone says that he's wet, or the voice acter somehow make voices as though he were choking on liquid, something like that. Either way the people will tell you that he was working in a certain part of the mine, maybe have some sort of landmark there. You decide to investigate.

When you reach the place, there is nothing strange. The pick was neatly laid down, as though he were pausing before the hallucinations began; he probably did take a drink of water, or maybe he saw something, or picked up a cursed item.

You look around and you see nothing. No item was found on Winston and you don't see any lying around. The next clue comes when you talk to some miner and mention where he died. The miner will say something like: "Hmm, that's the second miner who died there." It turns out that the miner you heard rumours about had died there.

When you ask whether the ghosts might not have been caused by Winston's realising where he was drinking from, the miner says that Winston didn't like the last miner much, in fact they avoided each other when they could, so it is doubtful that the effect would be so strong.

I hope you have by now guessed that the water is the problem, otherwise I may need to add another clue, maybe something in Winston's hallucinatory ravings. When you do find out you buy an empty vail, maybe from an apothecary, and go back to the pool, which you somehow select. It's pobably an activator. If you are carrying the vail a script makes an option appear: "Do you wish to take a sample of the water?" if you click "Yes" the vail gets a name like "Water Sample" and you can return it to the apothecary. He will notice that something is wrong with the water and that it seems diseased, and that will answer both of the miners deaths.

He will tell you to wait a while as he makes an antidote, which you then take to Winst was seeing a real ghost, who actually tried to tell Winston to stop drinking from the water. Winston doesn't say this because he was too frightened, and he already had a bit of the water, who's toxic properties made their effect felt right away. Anyway, you hear the ghosts warning and do the same thing as before with the apothecary to get the antidote, or the ghost gives you one, which he got in some unknown way.

Anyway, there is also a split that I thought up, to make the quest more open-ended: The player already has the possibility of sampling the water when he first goes to it, but he'll drink it instead, giving him a lot of nasty effects, like drain intellegence, a really weak but constant effect poison, and maybe a strong blind too. So the player has to stumble to the Apothecary to get the antidote. When you drink/eat the antidote and the effects are gone you ask for another of the same antidote and bring it to Winston.

Anyway, I'm not sure if Oblivion scripting works in the same way, and there will probably be some things which I mentioned that cannot be done, but there it is anyway.

[Gnomey]

Sorry for the double post, but I couldn't edit my last post which had a large chunk missing from a paragraph. Here's fixed version, much easier to understand:

He will tell you to wait a while as he makes an antidote, which you then take to Winston. Another possibility is that Winston was seeing a real ghost, who actually tried to tell Winston to stop drinking from the water. Winston doesn't say this because he was too frightened, and he already had a bit of the water, who's toxic properties made their effect felt right away.

There are also some other mistakes, but they aren't so important to fix, so I'll leave them be, these posts are long enough as they are...

[Sload]

Problems with Gnomey's quest:

1. No part of the mine currently has water. We'd need to add a whole new section in order to give any part of it water, too. There also aren't any good pieces for just pools of water. We could make it, but the water would just be rather wierd, to be honest.

2. No apothecary on Stirk. Simply impossible to add one. This sorta makes the quest a no-go, you know? Make sure you research the setting before you write the quest.

3. I'm rather against things like having a pool you can take water from. It just is out-of-place. Normal things should act like normal things unless they aren't normal things.

4. How do you get the player to realize that they are supposed to pick up the empty vial? Even if they realize it's the water, they normally can't fill the vial with water, how do you expect them to guess that? Journals should tell people things almost never.

PoHa!'s quest is very strong, with a few small things that I'm sure can be worked out.

• PoHa!:
  The ghost could be a figment of his imagination. No one else can see it (has seen it) and so they don't know what to make of it. Eventually, the player learns that Winston is a skooma addict, and convinces him to stay away from the stuff.
  
  Later, however, Winston admits that there's more to the story. While it was skooma causing the hallucinations, it was also his guilt from the past. While working in the mine, he and a friend realized that the tunnel was collapsing. While Winson made it out, his friend did not, and Winston was always too afraid (of another cave in) to go back for the body. He now asks the player to help him do so. They go into the mine, they find a ghost, and they are forced to kill it. Could have a nice dialogue afterwards, where the ghost forgives Winston, telling him he understands why he didn't come back for him.
  
  Winston could then gather up some bones, and put take them to the graveyard, where a new tombstone could appear.

First, why the skooma angle? It's a total distraction from the actual quest. They talk to him, he says he is a skooma addict, and the next day they talk to him and you find out that has nothing to do with it? It distracts and delays the plot and doesn't entirely fit.

Second, the ending should have more player involvement. The player should take the bones to Father Ambrogio, and then they disappear and OMG there's a new grave in the graveyard, magick.

Third, this would probably require another section of the mine to work right. Like Gnomey's, this isn't actually a huge problem and we can definitely make such a section work.

[PoHa!]

First, why the skooma angle? It's a total distraction from the actual quest. They talk to him, he says he is a skooma addict, and the next day they talk to him and you find out that has nothing to do with it? It distracts and delays the plot and doesn't entirely fit.

Actually, my idea was that he really was a skooma addict, not "making it up so that they wouldn't find out about his guilt", but he knew that that's why he was hallucinating about a ghost... if that makes sense.

I'm only throwing out ideas, of course. Pick it apart at your will

[Harke the Apostle]

How about this:

Winston can see the ghost because he takes the Skooma. For the PC to fullfil the quest she has to see the ghost herself, and therefore she must use skooma too.
The PC sees the ghost and then Winston tells the story.
The PC gets the bones etc and so forth.

[Sload]

First, why the skooma angle? It's a total distraction from the actual quest. They talk to him, he says he is a skooma addict, and the next day they talk to him and you find out that has nothing to do with it? It distracts and delays the plot and doesn't entirely fit.

Actually, my idea was that he really was a skooma addict, not "making it up so that they wouldn't find out about his guilt", but he knew that that's why he was hallucinating about a ghost... if that makes sense.

I'm only throwing out ideas, of course. Pick it apart at your will

So, the ghost isn't real?

I think the skooma angle just kinda funks it up, but the rest of it is definitely an awesome quest. That's just my opinion, of course.

Harke: And how exactly does the player get the idea to take skooma? Does Winston say "Hey, take this skooma so you can see the ghost that isn't real so I can tell you why I'm hallucinating the ghost so we can find his bones and give him a proper burial!"

[Harke the Apostle]

Harke: And how exactly does the player get the idea to take skooma? Does Winston say "Hey, take this skooma so you can see the ghost that isn't real so I can tell you why I'm hallucinating the ghost so we can find his bones and give him a proper burial!"

'Maaan this is a baaaad trip! Have some?'

[Gnomey]

Problems with Gnomey's quest:

1. No part of the mine currently has water. We'd need to add a whole new section in order to give any part of it water, too. There also aren't any good pieces for just pools of water. We could make it, but the water would just be rather wierd, to be honest.

2. No apothecary on Stirk. Simply impossible to add one. This sorta makes the quest a no-go, you know? Make sure you research the setting before you write the quest.

3. I'm rather against things like having a pool you can take water from. It just is out-of-place. Normal things should act like normal things unless they aren't normal things.

4. How do you get the player to realize that they are supposed to pick up the empty vial? Even if they realize it's the water, they normally can't fill the vial with water, how do you expect them to guess that? Journals should tell people things almost never.

1: No part has water? It could be added, but you said it would look wierd, so... could there be another cell, like Stirk Mine: Lower Cave? Though adding a whole new cell is a bit much. I'll answer the rest anyway:

2: No matter if there is no Apothecary. the vail can be gotten from a general goods shop, but if there is no one who could think up an antidote on the island, (I can't check due to lack of Oblivion), then just have my gost giving player the antidote idea.

3: Well, it isn't a normal thing as it is supposed to be poisoned, but I get your idea. Maybe... is there a misty thing like in Morrowind? Because if so that can be what's poisoned instead. Winston bent down to pick up something, maybe a piece of gold was hit out of the rock and fell on the ground, and he breathed in the bad fumes. This is more like what I wanted in the original: The dead canary idea.

4: By using the ghost idea, which seems the only one that might work, this doesn't matter, but oh well: First, lame way is having some journal entry like "I should take a sample of the water and bring it to ~insert name of anyone who would know about poison or things like that~." Or you could have, when the player talks about the topic, the general merchant say: "You could ask ~insert aforementioned person's name~ to look into it. Why not take him a sample of the water? I've got some vails you could use, for a price."

Anyway, I hope that clears up those problems.

[Noirgrim]

I don't know the specifics on how Sload is running the quest workflow, but... quests should be designed around the land/ints already in place. If quests start adding new land/ints or modify land/ints, there will be some merging issues, espeicially in places where quests might overlap or use the same land/ints.

So, please design quests around the land/ints and not vis-versa. You're all creative enough to use what's already in place, trust me.

(and as a personal note, I think good land and good ints inspire good quests)

[Gnomey]

Well, my mistake. For my mist idea you could have it in any low place. As I was doing the answers one after the other I had forgotten to say that. But anyway, I can see how my quest would be hard to do/impossible, and if an Oblivion modder thinks that it wouldn't work I'll trust their judgement.

[Sload]

I don't know the specifics on how Sload is running the quest workflow, but... quests should be designed around the land/ints already in place. If quests start adding new land/ints or modify land/ints, there will be some merging issues, espeicially in places where quests might overlap or use the same land/ints.

So, please design quests around the land/ints and not vis-versa. You're all creative enough to use what's already in place, trust me.

Small additions are acceptable, and there won't be conflict if we're awake at the wheel.

[PoHa!]

Alright, new ghost mine idea, no Skooma angles. No right or obtuse angles either.


The player hears rumors that Winston has apparently gone mad. He quit his job as a miner and lives (away from the Stirk populace somewhere) where he's basically starving and sleeping on the ground. When the player talks with him, Winston is first skiddish about relating anything, though eventually comes around. He tells the player that he was haunted by a ghost in the mines and doesn't know why, however, no one else saw the ghost, so no one believed him. He isn't mad, but it was maddening that no one else saw the ghost, so he had to quit his miner job (and has no other skills, and no money to leave the island). The player can choose to believe him or not.

If the player chooses not to believe him, (or actually, even if she/he has chosen to believe him) then he can report his madness to the guards, and maybe add a little to the story (aka he plans on hurting someone). The guard then goes to Winston, and tries to arrest him. Winston screams "I'm not mad! I'm not mad!!!" or something similar, and resists arrest. The guard attacks, and Winston gets killed. End Quest.

If the player DOES choose to believe him, then Winston will ask the player to follow him into the mine at night, when no one's in there (he apparently still has a key). Some time during the night, the player has to show up in front of the mine to meet him. They go inside, and Winston leads the way (or he tells the player were to go and follows the player... following NPCs in OB was very very annoying to me...) to the area where the ghost always appeared. Once they get close, Winston asks the player to stay hidden, and as soon as the ghost appears, to jump out and "kill" it.

When Winston goes slightly further into the mine, the ghost appears. If the player is hidden, then Winston will start screaming stuff like "Now! Now!" or something. If the player isn't hidden, then Winston will be annoyed, saying something like "It won't show up if your STANDING here!" however, it does show up. If the player stays hidden after Winston starts screaming, then the ghost should say something like "You there, hiding in the shadow. I want a word with you." The ghost will then walk up to the player and initiate dialogue. If the player tried to attack the ghost, then his attacks will be useless, and the ghost will initiate dialogue after a few seconds.

In any event, the ghost should say something along the lines of the following:

"So, you know Winston, do you? Know him as well as you think? Do you know his past? What he did to my family? Winston is nothing but a money-grubbing low-life! That's what he is. I had hoped to scare him into admitting the mistakes of his past, but he's a coward, as well. The scrib piss bucket holder that you have taken upon yourself to aid married my sister for her money. Everyone saw through his ways but she, we ALL wanted him dead. But she made us all swear that we wouldn't conspire against him, to murder, maim, or cause him any bodily harm. He took her money and spent it on gambling at the arenas, beer, prostitutes... my poor sister took ill and never recovered all the while. I made it my duty to follow him, to ruin his life in any way that I could. I could see the guilt in his eyes every time he looked at me. Then he came here, started mining. So did I, as close to him as I could. He couldn't stand it any more. One day, he beat me to death from behind, and left me for dead. He covered my body with rocks so that it looked like a cave in. I am still bound by the oath to my sister, I cannot harm him, nor can I conspire to do so. So I'll stay here, until my spirit may rest."

Obviously, the ghost wants the player to kill Winston, though he'll never come out and say it. If the player talks to Winston, Winston denies the ghosts claims, though his voice is shaky, and he's obviously lying. At this point, the player can either kill the ghost, or kill Winston.

If the player kills Winston, the ghost talks to the player again, thanks him for what he's done, and gives the player his sister's (enchanted) amulet as a reward. Then the ghost disperses. End Quest.

If the player kills the ghost, then the ghost disperses, saying something like "I've failed you, little sister. I'm sorry... so sorry." When the player talks to Winston, he thanks him for "seeing through the lies of that ghastly spirit" and getting rid of him. He apologizes, though, and says that he has nothing to give the player, but suggests that the player return after a few days, at which point, he should be mining again, and he can at least give him a few coins for his service. Should the player ever come back, and ask Winston about the payment, he should say something like "Oh, right, you want your payment, right? Well, you see, I can't pay you right now. I'm barely scraping along. I'll have your gold later, I assure you." Of course, he never gives the player anything. End Quest.

********************

The ghost dialogue is incredibly long, obviously, or so I think. The "turn Winston in before ever going into the mine" part could probably use some work too. I put it in there to give the quest more possibilities, though it might be better to take it out? dunno. I'm tired of typing though

[Sload]

Immediately appearant problems:

1. The idea that Winston quit would make me wonder "Then why don't all those miners who hate the mine quit?" The idea was that, for whatever reason, they can't. He also was, you know, supposed to be a miner.

2. The island is very small, how does he get to a secluded place? The only semi-empty area is the vista, I guess that could work.

3. The way he can waltz in and out of the mine when the other miners are using a tunnel to get out is kinda wierd as well.

4. That dialogue is just too long. And he's kind of a young man, not the kind to have been married and wasted it away. And how and where did he marry this dead man's wife, if they're all locked in the mine?

A problem with both this backstory and the skooma angle is that the miners really don't have social lives. They can't smuggle skooma in and they aren't getting married any time soon. They basically live at the mines, and that's that.

I think the straight he-died-in-a-cave-in-please-bury-his-body is a nice quest.

[El Scumbago]

Just a question, not related to the quest, but there's no other place to post this: Do the miners hit the ore veins with their pickaxes? Or is this something that isn't possible with vanilla Oblivion? (I saw it in the Mehrunes Razor plug-in)

[Sload]

PoHa's been trying to script that.


PoHa! has scripted that, he only needs the pickaxe mesh to be added to OoT as a weapon, and for that weapon to actually appear properly as a weapon.
~Your secret admirer

[PoHa!]

Tis MINE! Err...

Bwahahaha! Something.

Okey, just like the first post says. Zeek is a rather un-Tamrielic name in my mind, though... is that set in stone, I wonder?

[Sload]

Granted.

Zeek doesn't have to be set in stone, but I like it. You'll notice the miners often have nicknames, none have last names but Tom Albin, which itself doesn't sound very Tamrielic. I feel that it gives them a very common feeling, which is the idea, since they're leader is named Marks, after all.

And Zeek is traditionally spelled Zeke on Earth.

[PoHa!]

Cave is done. Working on dialogue. I also slightly changed some things.

1.) Zeek doesn't just hand over his bones. Rats have taken them to different parts of the cave that I added. (I believe this has Sload's Official Stamp of Approval)

2.) Dialogue so far, which I like (which also slightly changes the quest from "Winston is Zeek's friend and is visited by him" to "Winston coerced Zeek into doing the hard stuff and that is why Zeek was in the cave in and no one else and is also why Winston is sad but he isn't visted by him just curious"):

What? So, people have been talking about me, have they? Telling you how sad I am all the time? Yea, I'm sure they have. Just leave me alone.

[Sigh]... Alright, alright. If you must know, yea, I've been rather upset. A month ago, we were trying get through a natural cave wall in the mine.

It was hard work. Solid, formed, natural cave wall. Everyone else decided that the 'Lizard' should do it. Zeek. No one cared to learn his full name.

He wasn't my friend, but... he listened to me. Trusted me. There was a... a cave in. We never went back. I just... wish I knew what happened to him.

I also have Zeek's short bits of dialogue done, but it fits either case. Feedback be welcome.

[PoHa!]

Can't get past the whole merge to master and convert to plugin so that I can actually test the damn thing, which has really pissed me off...

Dropping. Should be fairly close to done, depending upon how many bugs there are, or how many things I did unorthodoxically.

[Noirgrim]

Do you have scripterrons thing, I can show you how to do it so you can play test it.

[PoHa!]

Do you have scripterrons thing, I can show you how to do it so you can play test it.

Yes, yes I do. I merged to Master, I converted it to an .esp, and then started to load it up, only to discover that it was dependent upon the Stirk v078.esm still... So I tried to remove that dependency, and I got an error. If I try to clean out that section that was related to the error, then I get another error when I try to remove the dependency.

I'm a CS guy, not a 3rd-party tool tinker monkey.

[Sload]

If that file you uploaded is just the quest without stirk, I'll test/fix it for you the other way that made you pull your hair out when I'm done doing so with my quest.

[Thrignar Fraxix]

whats up with this

[Noirgrim]

This quest works and seems to be errorless, it should get a final review when Stirk is at that point.

[Haplo]

This quest is Finished.