Weekly Think Group 1 - Guild of Fighters and Knightly Orders

[Sload]

The title should be Weekly Think Group #1 - Guild of Fighters and Knightly Orders. Stupid character limit.

What in effin'ell is this?

This is the Weekly Think Group. That's right, it's a group for thinking! It's something we don't do nearly enough of, so I thought we'd get together every week and practice together!

No, seriously. I suppose it should be called the Weekly Brainstorm Group, but does that sound nearly as good? No! This is a group for discussing topics for the mod and bouncing ideas off of eachother. It's like the Weekly Sketch Group, only no art so I can participate!

A few things have contributed to this idea:

• 1. Lore Discussion doesn't have that much activity or focus. Before the WSG, Concept Art was much the same.
  
  2. The WSG gets clogged up with people like me who don't draw but talk a lot. We can talk here, with focus.
  
  3. I think it's groovy.

Wha're da rules?

• 1. If you try to be nice, I'll try to be nice.
  
  2. Time limit. I don't know what to do about this. I'm thinking for now that this will last for two weeks instead of one, but in one week I'll post another one, so starting in a week there'll always be two. Unless this is a total failure and no one talks.
  
  3. Discuss the current topic and in a loreful and intelligent way.
  
  4. Don't be a dumbass.
  
  5. Have fun and have good ideas.

The Guild of Fighters and The Most Noble and Knightly Orders of Hammerfell

This is actually a dual-topic. The first half is the Guild of Fighters.

In Hammerfell, the Guild of Fighters works to train people who will eventually join the knightly orders of Tamriel. They all have what Lutemoth described as a dojo, who gives the contracts to aspiring knightliers. Perhaps you will have to get the approval of, say, half of them to join the knightly orders. What are their personalities? Who are they?

And what about the rest of the guild? Who else would be a part of this new training program? Where are they located? How do other factions feel about them?

And the second half is the Knightly Orders.

There are 3 the player can join. One is Forebear and in Taneth; One is Lhotunic and in Sentinel; One is Crown and in either Hegathe or Elinhir. How do they feel about eachother? How do they feel about their factions and other factions unrelated to them? What kind of quests do they do? What kind of people are in them?

And what about other knightly orders the player just can't join? Is the Order of the Lamp there? Are there any others? How do they feel? Who's in them?

There are so many things to talk about with this. What's most important is that you THINK. (Weekly. In a group..)

[Lutemoth]

Before this discussion begins, I must express my enchantment for the knightly order system. While it might lead the mind to conveyably relate it to few earth-cultural distinctions (Samurai mastery, W.European knighthood, ect.), I can't escape how Redguard it could be.. How yokudan, if you will. Ergo, how essentially part of hammerfell it will be.

[Adanorcil]

It's like the Weekly Sketch Group, only no art so I can participate! Razz

CHEAT!

Before this discussion begins, I must express my enchantment for the knightly order system. While it might lead the mind to conveyably relate it to few earth-cultural distinctions (Samurai mastery, W.European knighthood, ect.), I can't escape how Redguard it could be.. How yokudan, if you will. Ergo, how essentially part of hammerfell it will be.

Bingo.


Whatever we do, I think there should be a distinct difference between the groups. I will try to describe my ideas on them seperately (slightly exaggerated to make myself clear).

Crowns: They consider themselves the "elite" troups of the rightful rulers of Hammerfell. They are traditionalistic and proud and classic in their ideas of loyalty and valor. Loyalty to your superiors, rulers and to your banner. They walk around in traditional (few exterior/Imperial influences), beautiful, yet functional outfits and take every chance to proclaim themselves, resulting in a lavish use of the crown emblems for decoration. Think of the Swiss Guard, only with less silly outfits.

I imagine they would be strict and sparing with their ranks. You're either a worthy warrior, or you're nothing, not much in between. This means you would have to go through spartan training to be deemed worthy of your position: you will have to prove yourself. Once you have attained that position, you are all brothers, as the superior warriors of the crown counties.

Forebear: The Forebear derive from the same culture but from a radically different point of view. They would take their own people's needs above anything else. To ensure this, they know they have to be able to defend their lands and are thus more open to new "technology" and less traditionalistic. If they see that a full metal breastplate, even if that is an Imperial invention, offers better protection, they will use it. I think they would be more pragmatic and less hooked on heraldry. They would also be more open to common people, more eager to accept them into their ranks as long as they fulfill their duties.

I think they would have a bigger rank system; a hierarchy with the most seasoned and revered warriors on top.


Lhotunics: The Lhotunics are new and their power is probably still limited. It is not obvious to allign yourself with a military organisation who does not favor any of the two major powers in a nation. The Lhotunic knights, apart from being fighters, should also have a knack for diplomacy.

[Nomadic1]

Adanorcil, I like your thinking

<insert constructive comment here>

Before I input, I'll wait and see what other people think.

[Harke the Apostle]

My ideas are a little different, but I hope they make sense from a gameplay perspective.

And the second half is the Knightly Orders.

There are 3 the player can join. One is Forebear and in Taneth; One is Lhotunic and in Sentinel; One is Crown and in either Hegathe or Elinhir. How do they feel about eachother? How do they feel about their factions and other factions unrelated to them? What kind of quests do they do? What kind of people are in them?

Taneth Order:

A slightly decadent order where the knights spend time conducting ceremonies (partying), jousting and ordering their page (you) around.

Motto: I am already best, so why try harder. (They try to make everything they do look effortless (European))

Quests:

You begin by cleaning up after the knights. Perhaps buying their food and wine and getting them new extravagant clothes. As you progress you will be entrusted with more and more responsible quests, getting them from the laziest knight first,
After those you will get rather silly knight-errand quests: Get enchanted item so and so. Defend the honour of lady X and prevent her family from falling from grace (and them losing their considerable estate).
Save our noble brother ,Sir Merryman, from castle Jolie-Coeur, where an evil sorceres has locked him in her dungeon naked and he gets whipped with stingy nettles every day together with our other brethren of the Order who had the misfortune to fail this mission.
About reaching the top rank of the order; you can’t . its hereditary. Perhaps the old master dies and you get to be the assistant of his younger nephew. But it doesn’t really matter.

Stance toward other orders:

The Crown can’t really touch them, of course the Taneth Order needs to make sure it stays that way.
They have learnt to live alongside the Lothunic Order, the hard way.

Size: biggest

Estate: Sir Raymond Luxury-Yacht. They have their own vinyards. Ranking members live in Mansions or even castles.

Crown:

A very self-righteous order, the members are ambitious, and act like they are always working.
Supposedly they frown on the older Taneth order, but secretly they are jealous of its merit, influence and higher standing. They claim that nothing ever is achieved without hard work. That is why you, squireling, should work hard.

Motto: Per aspera ad astra. (They try to make everything look like hard work, even if it isn’t (American))

Quests:

Menial tasks, then training, a test. After that lots and lots duels to improve the reputation of the guild. Then some good old entrapment the competitor order member of your patron.
Eventually either your patron falls out of grace or you have to fight her (duel) yourself.
They’re an ambitious lot.

Stance toward other orders:

The Taneth Order are a bunch of decadent louts. Oh why do they make it all look so easy!
The Lothunic Order exists only as a name (They haven’t burnt their fingers yet. Perhaps in the course of the Lothunic quests.

Size: somewhat smaller than Taneth Order

Estate: Not so rich

Lhotunic:

Eldest of the three orders and the smallest in numbers. This order is so old they are not even very traditional any more, unless where their ceremonies are concerned. While the Crown Order pretends to be the most business like, the Lothunic order is by far the most pragmatic. The Lothunic order exists through steering Sentinel society with a soft hand, ‘convincing’ nouveau riche entrepreneurs, that they should not evict impoverished families from the lower nobility. At times they also help poor but otherwise capable merchants set up shop. In this way they can also control trade and services in Sentinel. They work by networking, espionage, banking and investing. Think of a family of wise Jews without the religious bigotry and the social exclusion and you get the idea.

Motto: Rejoice not at thine enemy's fall - but don't rush to pick him up either. (Jewish)

Quests: You start as an errand boy. That you will ever move on to greater things is only vaguely suggested. Again you will go shopping (for inspiration the Daggerfall Gazetteer). When you visit the people you have to go to they will give you quests too, that become more and more elaborate. You find out it was kind of a set up by the Order to see if you understand how to move within Sentinel society and if you are fit for greater things. You may become the [insert highest rank here] but it doesn’;t matter much. They know better than to hinder a useful member such as yourself in doing good things for the order.
Stance toward other orders:

The Taneth and Crown Order can both be either useful tools or meddlesome newcomers.

Size: small but with many trusted non-member allies.

Estate:

Their sundry estate serves one purpose only: maintaining their powerbase, and influencing those in power and the poor alike. They are the personal bankers of the high nobility. No one knows how much they own, except the in faction accountants. Checking the books could also make for a good quest.

[Morgoth]

Couldn't we call it a 'Weekly Opinionated Argument Group' instead?

[Harke the Apostle]

You're on!

[edit]

Note: No magicians or enchanters in the orders proper.
Note 2: Every order has its own special skills
Note 3: I haven’t included the trainers in the list.

Taneth Order:

Services:

All non-members:

An enchanter who only charges up magic items and sells
A smith
A maitre d’ who gives orders to pages and non-member personel.
The Orders’ own winemaker where you can buy wine, to be charged to your Order account
A Luxury Clothier and Perruquier, for the silly wig and clothing you will need for your carreer
An alchemist

Crown:

Services:

Non-members

A wizard who sells scrolls and recharges enchantments and sells some enchanted clutter as well

Members:

A smith:
An alchemist:

Lothunic:

Members:

An accountant (quest related only)
Errand/messenger -boys

Non-members:

All other services are performed by shopkeepers/ professionals who owe a big favour to the Order. Buy your goods at greatly reduced prices or even get them for free for specific quests.

For magic the Order has a witch who knows some 1337 spells and scrolls.

Because of this way of working members of the order have a much greater access to resources and services than the other orders, including those services that the other two Orders shun.

[Macar]

Here's an old post from my concept art thread. Maybe you can use this idea with reguard to "dojos"


Redgaurds hold great respect for thier elders, especialy vetrans. These men, often open martial schools to pass on thier skills, especialy the anchient Regaurd longsword arts- a method is considered the finest in all of tamriel. It matches thier personality, unrestrictive, sometimes flashy, and always deadly.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v683/Macar/Trainingroom.jpg

So, vetrains of warfare would run the dojos, training the young bloods to join an order.

[Harke the Apostle]

Note 4: Is it true that we can’t have horses in Hammerfell?

Fighting styles:

Taneth Order:

Traditionally Blunt Object wielders, like the Aztecs, but now swordsmen like the knights from those technicolor ® movies. Heavy Armour. May use some orichalc items if they acquire them.

Spellcasting is forbidden, but the use of enchanted items is allowed (they even go questing for those) Ranged weapons are seen as cowardly. Perhaps you could even get banned for using these ‘cowardly’ means.

Hybrid of Eagle Warrior and North-European Knight

Crown Order:

Swordsmen and Archers, Light Armour.

Spellcasting is forbidden, same as with the Taneth Order.

Hybrid of Jaguar Warior and Xia

Lothunic Order:

No armour. High Stealth and high personality. Mercantile skills are very important. As long as you are discreet any fighting technique that will help you achieve the objective of the order is fine.

The Lothunic Order used to be Yokudan nobles who shot their enemies with slings from their litter, like the Inca nobles, for this reason their ranged weapon skills are unrivalled.

[edit]

Buildings:

Taneth Order:

Beautiful Castle
Vinyard
2 Ranking members also have mansions, and the master has a luxury castle

Crown Order:

Fortress

Lothunic Order:

Top-notch but not conspicuous real estate in Sentinel. Perhaps the front is a bank. Located near the market.

[Macar]

Are the names we are using (crown, taneth, ect.) placeholders? I thought I remember hearing about an "order of the scarab".

Spellcasting is forbidden

Isnt that true of all Redguard orginizations?

[Harke the Apostle]

Are the names we are using (crown, taneth, ect.) placeholders? I thought I remember hearing about an "order of the scarab".

In my case they are. What I have put up is more of a gameplay concept for three orders than a Lore-based concept.

Spellcasting is forbidden

Isnt that true of all Redguard orginizations?

It also nicely coincides with my belief that heavy armour and spellcasting don't go together very well.

[Macar]

What I meant was that I doubt any of the orders would have staff wizards- exept for alchemists and enchanters. Redguards dont trust magic- would they really let a magic user live in thier hall? I think that knightly orders should be particularly suspicious of magic- becuase they are all about being macho and honourable. I'd say that the knights should embody redguard values and practice them on an even higher level than the common man.

[Anonymous]

I would imagine that if they allow anyone, it would be just alchemists. As far as they are probably concerned, its like cooking but more useful. Also, even though that is a strictly magical liquid, there are no actual mages involved. Remember that healing potions were common in Redguard.

Heck you could say that alcohol has some 'magical' effects.

[Harke the Apostle]

Visual reference:

Taneth Order:

Male and female hair:

[url=http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=princevaliantas7.jpg][img]http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/22/princevaliantas7.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ramonesje7.jpg][img]http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/655/ramonesje7.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Eagle Warriors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Florentine_Codex_IX_Aztec_Warriors.jpg


Crown Order:

Basically their hair is the other way ‘round:

Men are bald with elaborate beards that are as long as possible

The women would look like this:

[url=http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=y2ff3.jpg][img]http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/6742/y2ff3.th.jpg[/img][/url]

The only reason they do this is to show that they are NOT like the Taneth order.

Jaguar Warrior:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jaguar_warrior.jpg


Lothunic Order:

Look mostly like normal Upper Middle Class people, except for a ring or an amulet that they never put off.

@ Macar:

Even if you positive loathe magic, you will want to have someone handy to remove curses and break evil spells.

[PoHa!]

Lhotunic:
Eldest of the three orders and the smallest in numbers. This order is so old they are not even very traditional any more,

Doesn't the PGE list them as the NEWEST of the three orders?

[Harke the Apostle]

I suppose you are right. Just replace the captions that say Lothunic with the ones that say Crown.

[Macar]

Even if you positive loathe magic, you will want to have someone handy to remove curses and break evil spells.

That could be done with shrines and potions. I still believe that having wizards, and especialy witches, is against everything that the knightly orders stand for.

I agree that alchemists are just fine- I've always felt that it was the magic that's not magic. People who make enchanted weopons also seem permissable to me because crafting the weapon is a craft- and makes up half the process- I just dont know how they'd feel about the whole use of trapped souls...

Another reason they shouldnt get magical services is that even in Cyrodill the fighters guild dosent offer them. Why would it be different in Hammerfell?

[Lady Nerevar]

um, ill just argue against harke and along side ada.
arguments:
its the fighters guild, i don’t think that it should divide up by "bow" "sword" etc. this wat we would be forcing the player to join a faction based on their specialty, not on their personal allegiance. the quests will probably be involved with politics (i hope at least) so the player should join the group that they support. Besides that, i think that this is not the time to chart out quests, is it? Otherwise i can have a nice quest line document up tomorrow.

on another note, i don’t think that the knightly orders should have much social impact (you list the taneth ones as having vineyards and mansions for ex). the knights would be in the upper ranks of society -- more in crown then in L and F imho-- but they wouldn’t be special people. how would a warrior have time to manage a vineyard anyways? the type of services available should also be pretty much the same, for game play reasons mostly.

on physical differences, i would say that the crown would look and dress in the more traditional yoku manner, while the L and Fs would be more imperial. i don’t think that its necessary for em to look entirely different just so one can tell em apart.

phew, too much typing.

[Harke the Apostle]

um, ill just argue against harke and along side ada.

Apart from the Lore mistakes I made, I don't see why the two concepts should exclude each other.

arguments:

its the fighters guild, i don’t think that it should divide up by "bow" "sword" etc. this wat we would be forcing the player to join a faction based on their specialty, not on their personal allegiance. the quests will probably be involved with politics (i hope at least) so the player should join the group that they support. Besides that, i think that this is not the time to chart out quests, is it? Otherwise i can have a nice quest line document up tomorrow.

What good are three the same factions? Also the quests should have tie in with the character of the order.

the type of services available should also be pretty much the same, for game play reasons mostly..

Not so! They are different guilds and they should be structured differently, to reflect the different cultures.

on physical differences, i would say that the crown would look and dress in the more traditional yoku manner, while the L and Fs would be more imperial. i don’t think that its necessary for em to look entirely different just so one can tell em apart.

The knightly orders should look different, as a matter of fact so different that they can be kept apart from afar, when they are wearing battledress that is.
Hence the heraldry on the banners, the flags and the shields. They wouldn't have to be completely different, but you should be able to tell them apart.

[Lady Nerevar]

they are still part of the FG in simple terms. I see no need to limit a player according to their specialization as you are doing. If i am a Barbarian with Daedric armor and i want to join the Lhotunics, i should be able too. the character of the order will be strongly tied with the character of their faction (otherwise we wouldn’t have one of each)

i agree that they should be structured differently, but i don’t see a reason for one to have an alchemist and for the other one not. i also don’t quite see a reason to have fancy and quite useless in terms of game play things like fancy wig making clothiers.

I also don’t think that the knightly orders would encounter each other enough to need keeping apart via different hair styles. they are knights after all, knights would use fancy armor and weapons, as well as shields with their insignia and shit to distinguish themselves. not 70's hair or bald heads.

aside: holy fuck, im sounding like sload.

[/opinionated arguments]

[Harke the Apostle]

they are still part of the FG in simple terms. I see no need to limit a player according to their specialization as you are doing. If i am a Barbarian with Daedric armor and i want to join the Lhotunics, i should be able too. the character of the order will be strongly tied with the character of their faction (otherwise we wouldn’t have one of each)

I was thinking of the way the different Houses in Morrowind
work.

i also don’t quite see a reason to have fancy and quite useless in terms of game play things like fancy wig making clothiers.

Gameplay is only thing quests and entourage are another. The Orders are not just functional in terms of gameplay, but they also represent something, otherwise why bother with putting them in barracks or putting clothes on them.

I also don’t think that the knightly orders would encounter each other enough to need keeping apart via different hair styles. they are knights after all, knights would use fancy armor and weapons, as well as shields with their insignia and shit to distinguish themselves. not 70's hair or bald heads.

The styles I have depicted are three Medievil styles plus one more contemporary interpretation. (Ramones'hair for women). You see, I've done my homework.(At least on the history part). Now go read up on your costume history![/feigned anger] Seriously, from what you said earlier about the vinyard, I wonder if you know how European knights lived.

[Lady Nerevar]

i know how eauropean knight lived. (i too have done my homework -- to a sertain extent atleast). however, hammeferll is no medieval europe, partly because we have a game to work with. if we give our people compleat lives then we might as well make seasons, cause that affected how people lived. the knights should be protrayed as a fighting force (especialy due to teh curent events), so making a knight wo is also a winemaker on some estate... dosent make much sence, atleast to me.

while i do see the need for culture in these orders, i think it can be goten through armor and tapestries and stuff. i dont think that they need special wig makers. if they need a wig they could go to the local wig house and get one made (as could the player). if the wid was to be esential to the faction, then the player should be proviced with one, like the uniform in the imp legion.

[Harke the Apostle]

The idea is to show that the knights are so rich they don't have to do the kind of chores our mothers tell us to do. That vinyard or country house would need to be modded in anyway, the difference is that we can now use it to show the wealth of the knights. The Clothier / Perruquier serves the same purpose. I do like the wigs for at least one faction, I agree they could also buy them in town, but for this concept I need to show the player that this order is very very rich.

Every order I have discussed has a different position in society, though all are knightly orders.

@ Macar:

I still believe that having wizards, and especially witches, is against everything that the knightly orders stand for.

With the Crown Order (I called it Lothunic before) the idea is that through the insidious way the order works they have access to many services, also the ones that are not normally accessible to honourable redguards. The witch isn’t part of the Order, she just owes them. She lives in the country somewhere.

Another reason they shouldnt get magical services is that even in Cyrodill the fighters guild dosent offer them. Why would it be different in Hammerfell?

Good reason.
I am not convinced that they shouldn’t have an enchanter, but it wouldn’t be a disaster if they didn’t.

For those who remember Dune II

Lothunic: Atreides
Crown: Ordos
Forebear: Harkonnen

except not so morally bw.

[Sload]

Dividing quests based on skills and attributes should never be done.

[Harke the Apostle]

Dividing quests based on skills and attributes should never be done.

Did i propose that? I thought I merely gave the orders different specialisms.

[Sload]

And what does that lead to?

"Oh, I join this order because I use a bow, and next time when I use axes I'll join this order."

NO!

[Harke the Apostle]

And what does that lead to?

"Oh, I join this order because I use a bow, and next time when I use axes I'll join this order."

NO!

You are the Quest Person... Could you recommend something else that preserves cultural diversity?

[Sload]

Uh, how about their opinions?

[Macar]

Opionions and alignment are one demention. The workings of the order are another one- how members treat eachother, how you advance, and what sort of rewards you get.

[Harke the Apostle]

What skills will they favour, or will they take just about anyone who comes along?

[Macar]

I'd say the same ones as the fighter's guild... since it is the fighter's guild.

[Abramul]

I would think that, in general, Restoration magic would be more acceptable, with these exceptions:
Absorb
Fortify Magicka-None of them would see much use for it
Fortify Skill
Fortify Attribute, Health, and Fatigue might or might not be accepted

Dispel and Rally should be fine with all of them.

Bound items, additionally, might be OK, but as they would likely be considered as 'summoning demons', they're rather iffy.

Charm might be acceptable.
Shield, and the elemental Shields, might be OK.
Not sure about Feather or Reflect Spell
Silence-slightly possible

[Sload]

Magick is for jingkai, the word I made up for cowards of the top of my head.

Seriously, Redguards and magick don't mix. The one thing they can agree on is that the only good magick is priest magick.

[Macar]

Rally should be fine with all of them.
Charm might be acceptable.

I think that that one guy in OB (the redguard wizard) said that redguards hate three kinds most: Necromancy, conjuration and anything that messes with people's minds. So, if I'm right, these should be right out.

[Tyrion]

So that means no conjuration or illusion, and all the other colleges of magic to a certain extent.

[Abramul]

Rally should be fine with all of them.
Charm might be acceptable.

I think that that one guy in OB (the redguard wizard) said that redguards hate three kinds most: Necromancy, conjuration and anything that messes with people's minds. So, if I'm right, these should be right out.

Eh, at least my second thought on Bound Items was spot-on.

EDIT: Light would be the only Illusion effect that isn't either 'sneaky' or 'screwing-with-heads'. Rally might still be ok for critters.

[PoHa!]

Just to have his exact quote for easy reference:

I'm Trayvond the Redguard, Mages Guild Evoker. Surprised? Yes, you don't see many Redguards in the Mages Guild. We don't much like spellcasters in Hammerfell. Wizards steal souls and tamper with minds. If you use magic, you're weak or wicked. My family didn't approve of my vocation, so I had to come to Cyrodiil for my education. I admit... I still have strong prejudices against necromancy, summoning, and illusion. Profaning the remains or souls of the dead is just wrong. And I'm uneasy about tampering with other's minds and trafficking with Daedra.

Meh. I tried to be helpful.

[Lutemoth]

A question I have, rather than a suggestion, is the rule of the contract.

How strict is the adherance to knighthood? Do certain dojos favour political influences? Do pupils of this honor abide faithfully, or is it a system that encourages choice? Are there those allowed to abandon this trust and become wandering swordsmen?

[Dexter]

Before I go into my ideas on how the orders should work, I should begin by saying that I pretty much hate Harke's idea on how the Forebear knights should work. Archetypical qualms aside, there is the serious logical/lore flaw in it. The Forebears and the Crowns are locked in a struggle for power. The Crowns are taught in the ancient Ra Gada fighting techniques, which are renowned as the most deadly in Tamriel. The warriors of the Crowns are among the best there are. You do not remain competitive with an army like this with an "I'm already the best, so why try harder." An army of lazy egomaniacs would get flattened by the professional ass-kickers that make up the Crown order.
Now, on to my ideas...

Crowns: This order would be a more personal, individualized order. I am going to piggyback off Adanorcil's idea, and say that it is made up of two basic ranks: the warriors and the squires.
[break idea]
We need to come up with a more Redguardy name than squire.
[resume idea]
The warriors will be so well-trained that they are able to serve as teachers for the squires. They are numerous enough that each squire could be assigned to one warrior, as an apprenticeship of sorts. The warriors would be honor-bound to hone the squire's skills until they are worthy of the warrior rank, and taking on a squire themselves.

Forebears: The Forebear order would be somewhat less deadly, more impersonal, and tightly-regimented. There would be training classes, which would train for a while under one teacher, before moving on to another teacher. We could introduce the idea of having specialists, such as archers, two-handed swordsmen, shield and shortswordsmen, mace-weilders, and so on. This would give more of the flavor of the Imperial Legion, which this order would be fashioned after.

Lhotunic: This is the newest order, one that is not directly connected to Redguard culture in any way. It was founded by a group of high-ranking Fighters Guild members who came to Sentinel and hired the arena fighters there. The Fighters Guid members that run the Order are well-financed, and well-connected to the best trainers and blacksmiths in Tamriel. As a consequence, their fighters tend to be well-armed and trained, but without the moral fiber and honor code that the other orders have. Because of this, the fighters tend to be highly individualistic, and the Order is not so much an army as it is a collection of mercenaries.

[Harke the Apostle]

Before I go into my ideas on how the orders should work, I should begin by saying that I pretty much hate Harke's idea on how the Forebear knights should work. Archetypical qualms aside, there is the serious logical/lore flaw in it. The Forebears and the Crowns are locked in a struggle for power. The Crowns are taught in the ancient Ra Gada fighting techniques, which are renowned as the most deadly in Tamriel. The warriors of the Crowns are among the best there are. You do not remain competitive with an army like this with an "I'm already the best, so why try harder." An army of lazy egomaniacs would get flattened by the professional ass-kickers that make up the Crown order.
Now, on to my ideas...

Forebears:

On the Archetypical level: they don't work less hard, maybe a little, they just have a different philosophy to how they train and work. Remember the Greeks and Romans who said that the morally best man had most leisure time? Don't think that a knight has the same work ethic as the one they expect you to have when you work in a Sheraton hotel.
And yes, they may be on their way down. That happens when groups of people get very rich. The more or less lazy ones
would be the higher rank. Most actual work would be done by those lower in rank. After that they would be accepted into the higher ranks, in this way the order would not rapidly decline.