The Eight-Ways Necromancer

[Sload]

Mannimarco,

Time was split 8 ways in the Iliac, as were we. Akatosh snaked and split, and his eyes looked in many ways we cannot see, shut but watching all the same, helpless. The Walk-Brass collapsed from the rupture, for it was not meant to walk in but one place in one time. Was it in Wayrest or Dragonstar? Or Sentinel, or Orsinium? Or did the Blades take it back to Rimmen? And was its Mantella with you or me besides?

The Jills of Akatosh flew to the aid of their brother-lover, and soon things were mended and we were one again. But not you, Mannimarco. "As above, so below." And what of it, you fool?

But who is it I am speaking to? Is it the King of Worms, rotting in his Barrow and waiting for another day? Or the High Priest of Maggots, thrown away and forcibly removed from his temple? Now in Cyrod's land, I've heard, fighting wars with Traven (an ignoramus as both us know). Or the Revenant Moon, now a god as he wished, though Arkay still flies as ever. He has no Jills, though, to send you back to your pit. Or are you the Lilandrian? Or the Mystic, murdered for his uncertainty? Or the others?

For you are not one of these, but all. Eight Ways, you have been split. The Jills came to you and you turned them off, instead chosing to be thrown asunder by the "rapture" of the Selectives. Doomed to live eight lives, without slumber. But it is your choice.

As to me: I sleep, once again as one.

[Harke the Apostle]

Since this is in Lore Discussions, should we criticize this piece of literature? Or are you asking us in an oblique way to discuss the bridge you made between Daggerfall, Oblivion and Hammerfell?

[Sload]

It's a bored kid writing his idea in a round-about way.

The coolest explanation for the lame Mannimarco is that he has been split into 8 pieces. The Jills tried to mend it, but clearly failed. Either we were left with 2 mannimarcos, one who is now a god, or we were left with 8.

If the latter, what kind of crazy things could we do with those 6 remaining Mannimarcos?

[Harke the Apostle]

Can't we just invent some MK-like pseudoquantummechanicM-branecollapsingwavefunctionmoonsugarPhildickianmumbojumbo explanation for the other six to disappear? like er...eight is the third power of two, and that's why there are only two left. Come! Grasp the chain, and prove you're sane!

[edit] On the other hand we might bunch the other six Mannimarcos in some ueber dungeon and have them attack the PC all at once. The bottom of Fang Lair would certainly qualify in my book. Or maybe they were whisked away to one of the nightmare realms that were discussed earlier. Each Mannimarco would be the same, save for attributes that correspond to the Daggerfall endings.

[Lady Nerevar]

I don't think that we should have all 8 in the mod, though the idea of him splitting into 8 is kick ass. The lit piece seems cool too... perhaps it can be droped into the world to hint at the existance of Mani in Hammerfell (if that will play a part in the qests anyhow)?

[Amrod]

I'd like the god mannimarco to still exist, we even have a slight bit of lore to back up such a claim. I'm not too sure about having 6 more mannimarcos, it would give us alot of oppurtunities, but is it acceptable as lore?

(Don't get me wrong, personally I'd think it would be col if there were 7 more mannimarcos, one of which is a god.)

EDIT:

This could also be the reason why mannimarco was so terribly weak in OB, maybe his powers were split in 8 as well? Maybe thats why the god mannimarco didn't have the power to completely defeat akatosh? (though he can still be a thorn in his foot).

EDIT2: Wait, I just realized, weren't there 7 different endings in daggerfall, meaning there are 7 mannimarcos in total. (the god one included). Not really relevant for the discussion, but just want to correct an error.

[Sload]

Can't we just invent some MK-like pseudoquantummechanicM-branecollapsingwavefunctionmoonsugarPhildickianmumbojumbo explanation for the other six to disappear? like er...eight is the third power of two, and that's why there are only two left. Come! Grasp the chain, and prove you're sane!

Because that would be totally not un-cool and everything.

[edit] On the other hand we might bunch the other six Mannimarcos in some ueber dungeon and have them attack the PC all at once. The bottom of Fang Lair would certainly qualify in my book. Or maybe they were whisked away to one of the nightmare realms that were discussed earlier. Each Mannimarco would be the same, save for attributes that correspond to the Daggerfall endings.

Yeah, Fang Lair and Quagmire, perfect places for uber-necromancers. Their, you know, fortress wouldn't make any sense or anything.

I'd like the god mannimarco to still exist, we even have a slight bit of lore to back up such a claim. I'm not too sure about having 6 more mannimarcos, it would give us alot of oppurtunities, but is it acceptable as lore?

Ever tried to get a black soul gem? Yeah, that moon is Mannimarco the god. And it's the more-or-less accepted explanation by most of the cool kids in the lore community.

This could also be the reason why mannimarco was so terribly weak in OB, maybe his powers were split in 8 as well? Maybe thats why the god mannimarco didn't have the power to completely defeat akatosh? (though he can still be a thorn in his foot).

This is the reason. And he's a thorn in Arkay's foot.

In my post, I cleverly mentioned 5 Mannimarcos, known therein as "The King of Worms," "The High Priest of Maggots," "The Revenant Moon," "The Lilandrian," and "The Mystic." The second and third are the two you see in Oblivion, the other three are my own invention.

Obviously, we shouldn't have 6 Mannimarcos fighting in Hammerfell. That'd be ruther disinteresting. However, we can feature multiple Mannimarcos without being lame.

Some ideas.

• 1. The Revenant Moon. Ascended now, to Arkay's kingdom.
  2. The King of Worms. Spooky lord of Scourg Barrow. The most powerful of the 7 left on Nirn.
  3. The Lilandrian (after Lilandril, basically the best sounding -ian for any city in Summerset). Extremely sadistic and spontaneous side of Mannimarco. Mind-controlled by the King of Worms to serve as his body guard in full armor so no one knows who he is.
  4. The High Priest of Maggots. Expelled by the King of Worms. He actually calls himself Mannimarco, which obviously benifits the King. Killed by the Hero of Kvatch.
  5. The Mystic. Filled with Mannimarco's regret and uncertainty, wanted to go back to Artaeum. Killed by the King of Worms.
  6. The Sleeper. A second soul of Mannimarco's, stored in a seperate sleeping body hidden within the Barrow, as a "back-up file."

And that leaves two others. Both probably would have been killed.

[Amrod]

That sounds like a good way to explain it. This would give us something to work with. We just need 1 more mannimarco now, as I'm quite sure there were only 7 endings in DF and only 7 ways the time split during the dragon break.

[Harke the Apostle]

Why don't we make a huge hexagonal crypt in Scourg Barrow, and put the others in coffins near the vertexes? In this way Mannimarco has not one, but six spare bodies. Attack him and kill them all while they attack you, one by one. Or creep into his crypt and slit all of their throats and then threaten Mannimarco with death. When you have almost beaten him, he stops and offers you some 1337 items in exchange for his life.

[Sload]

That sounds like a good way to explain it. This would give us something to work with. We just need 1 more mannimarco now, as I'm quite sure there were only 7 endings in DF and only 7 ways the time split during the dragon break.

You're forgetting the one where the player keeps the stompy-bot for himself.

In this way Mannimarco has not one, but six spare bodies. Attack him and kill them all while they attack you, one by one.

But that's not as cool. And they aren't seperate bodies, but seperate souls.

[Harke the Apostle]

Because that's not very cool.

You could store them in slabs of ice. They'll stay fresh that way. Or just the Sleeper.

[Rastus01]

Harke the Apostle wrote: offers you some 1337 items in exchange for his life.

What about offering to join him.

[Sload]

The necromancer's are their own faction and everything, you know. You can join them from the start.

[Harke the Apostle]

The necromancer's are their own faction and everything, you know. You can join them from the start.

Maybe you get the quest to kill the Mystic from the necromancer's guild. After you return to Mannimarco he lets you know he feels remorse.

[Sload]

Zurin, old friend,

Would you prefer Arctus? Or should I call you Pelinial? Ysmir? Tiber? Arnand the Fox? Would you have such hubris as to call yourself the Doom Drum itself? It is most amusing that you call to me of splitting souls.

And what of it? Eight-Ways, Mannimarco was split. But I am not he. Only the maggot-fool in Cyrodiil calls himself by that name. I am the King of Worms, no name applies to me.

Of the others?

Two I killed straight out, with my own hands. They are better for it.

One I keep in sleep. His soul, confined to his weak body, almost none of our power left within it. He is peaceful there, happy. And a second soul, in case this one is lost to Arkay. My security, you could call it.

Two lost their minds. I pittied them, and stopped their pain. The first does not think, he only serves. I gave him a different kind of freedom, the freedom of submission. We call him the Lilandrian.

The second cannot think. I have twisted him grotesquely and used him for my studies. It is better for him that he does not think.

One was sent to Cyrodiil, the High Priest of Maggots. What he does there is his business, that he calls himself Mannimarco is much to my benifit. I ignore him, and he is happy in his world.

The last, of course, is the Necromancer's Moon. A failure. He had the Walk-Brass, the secret of the Dwemer, and he could not overcome the Enemy.

When I face Arkay, he will be no more. I will be no moon, secondary to the whole, but a replacement. All will know the true God of Worms, and the dead will bow before him. And I will personally awaken you from your slumber, o Underking..

Until then, pleasant dreams.

[Harke the Apostle]

Um..who said that dying was the end of the killed Mannimarcos? Perhaps their spirts accompany Mannimarco, like Immaculata in Weaveworld is accompanied by the ghosts of her unborn dead siblings?

[Sload]

I did. Duh.

[Chahiero]

2. The King of Worms. Spooky lord of Scourg Barrow. The most powerful of the 7 left on Nirn.

I believe there is some lore about him in Daggerfall, since he appears in it. I'll check. I'm going through Daggerfall's 1000's of books right now anyways

[Sload]

No shite. His name was also Mannimarco. Because Mannimarco's title was The King of Worms. That was the whole point.

[Chahiero]

What I mean is, I think that at least 1 of Daggerfall's books or scrolls was dedicated to him as a person.

[Harke the Apostle]

I see. Mannimarco is left with three dead, spirit-less, bodies? Would he have wasted them, or used these corpses for some overly perverse experiment? Or does he keep them somewhere, maybe in his library?

[Sload]

Of course.

Mannimarco was a person. He was a necromancer. He built a dungeon and called himself the King of Worms. In Daggerfall, you can give him the Mantella, he uses it to try and become a god. Because Daggerfall had multiple endings, 8 events played out, and there were 8 versions of different people. The Jills of Akatosh (his female-dragon servant-spirits) came down to fix things. This is 100% official.

Mannimarco refused to be fuxed. He remained as 8 people, 1 of whom is now a god. This is speculation that is agreed upon by all the leet lore geeks and such.

From here on out, when I say "The King of Worms," I mean the 1/8th of Mannimarco - a person who appeared in Daggerfall and had a book about him - who remained the King of Worms after Mannimarco became 8 seperate entities.

I see. Mannimarco is left with three dead, spirit-less, bodies? Would he have wasted them, or used these corpses for some overly perverse experiment? Or does he keep them somewhere, maybe in his library?

Read again, Harkey-parkey. The King of Worms (who, for everyone's understanding, is the uber and dominant version of Mannimarco, currently in power at Scourg Barrow) is left with 1 body-guard drone, 1 experiment monkey (The Lord of Flies or something), and 1 back-up soul. All have spirits, but their perverted spirits.

[Chahiero]

I'm not saying he's in the game. That's obvious in ways that youve done a good job in the game.

What I mean is in the game there is a book detailing background lore on him ("who is he?" "where did he come from?" "what colour underwear dsoes he wear?" Okay maybe not the last one). That might just be useful if I can find it.

[Sload]

You don't sound like you've heard of [url=http://til.gamingsource.net]The Imperial Library.[/url] It includes the books in Daggerfall (which do not number in the thousands, or even hundreds) and every game since. It actually includes just about all lore ever written anywhere by anyone official, as well as some other stuff. I already know all sorts of things about Mannimarco.

For your sake, though, I'll prove it.

Mannimarco was an Altmer. He studied at Artaeum, the island of the Psijics. He fought with Galerion the Mystic, founder of the Mages Guild, and ever since then the two have not really liked eachother. Then Galerion died and Mannimarco didn't. Cue the beginning of my last explanation about his backstory.

[Chahiero]

1000's is an exaggeration. There were, in fact, 112 books in Daggerfall, and a handful of special cases which were generated by the game and not BOKxxxxx.txt files (which are more or less plaintext, so you can leaf through all the books in the game with Notepad if you feel so inclined). It just feels like 1000's when you have to add them all to TES3 by hand

Anyways, if you already have it, great, I'll stop looking through the book files then

[Sload]

I suggest you click that link to the Imperial Library and stop using your game files, as its much more convenient.

[Harke the Apostle]

Is this right?

1 King o’ Worms – body + Soul
2 Bodyguard Drone – body +soul
3 Experiment monkey – body + soul
4 High Priest – body + soul
5 Revenant Moon – gone to ‘heaven’
6 Backup soul – body + soul?
7 dead – corpse gone?
8 dead – corpse gone?

This is hard on my small brain...

[Chahiero]

My constant source of pondering is how he is these multiple entites, and yet the sase entity. Is he one soul split across multiple bodies? Are other entities "avatars" of the one most powerful entity? I find myself confused on that point.

[Sload]

Is this right?

1 King o’ Worms – body + Soul
2 Bodyguard Drone – body +soul
3 Experiment monkey – body + soul
4 High Priest – body + soul
5 Revenant Moon – gone to ‘heaven’
6 Backup soul – body + soul?
7 dead – corpse gone?
8 dead – corpse gone?

This is hard on my small brain...

Yes. The corpses would probably be gone in the sacred rituals to keep his competition from being resurrected (the King of Worms ironically invoking Arkay's).

My constant source of pondering is how he is these multiple entites, and yet the sase entity. Is he one soul split across multiple bodies? Are other entities "avatars" of the one most powerful entity? I find myself confused on that point.

The unified Mannimarco is gone. He was one guy, now they're eight. Technically, they're all the same person in that everyone in the world is all the same person, but that doesn't really matter here.

[Harke the Apostle]

If they were avatars that would mean there was a much more powerful entity behind it. I think the soul is simply split in eight not quite equal pieces.

[Lutemoth]

An eight-way Mannimarco in this point in time sounds both kick-ass and a logical way to present it. That, and we can pick and choose which avatars of ole Manny would be most apparent (as apparent as a worm-king can be), and which are a lot harder to discover/learn up on. I love the imagination in this, and the reaction one'd get when hearing "the King of worms was divided, and I've witnessed only one of eight?"

[Lady Nerevar]

(The Lord of Flies or something)

please not. i didnt like that book, especialy the audio version.

[sirwootalot123]

So yeah, this idea basically kicks ass. The story possibilities we could make out of it, fucking with the player's mind completely, are a happy future indeed.

[Gnomey]

I'll just drop in quickly. I think that it would be nice if there are at least two powerful versions, but neither having many, if any, other 'Worm Kings' under their service. That gives the possibility of, if part of the Necromancer faction, getting some of the weaker 'Worm King's' under the power of the faction and trying to defeat the opposing wormking, while as a mage you might hunt down and kill a weak one, find out there's another about, kill him, etc. Until you maybe kill one of the strong ones, but still hear of the Worm King moving about. In short, more possibilities than having one uber version and his goons, with one or two weaker, or at least in comparison, versions to be steamrolled. IMHO.

[Sload]

Gnomey, that whole worm-king-is-a-rank thing was Colostriph being stupid. It's not lore, it's not suggested in lore, and it's a lame idea. The King of Worms is the title Mannimarco made for himself and nothing more. Please disregard that thread in the future.

please not. i didnt like that book, especialy the audio version.

1. I love that book.

2. The Lord of the Flies comes from a translation of the demon named Beelzebub, who is generally either Satan's right hand (who specifically is in charge of the nasty evil demons punishing people in Hell) or Satan himself.

3. It was chosen as a name for the pighead because the pighead was a representation of the demons inside all of us. Simon was pure of these demons, a massianic figure of sorts, and he confronted the devil, as per the requirements of being a kick-ass messiah, but the author expressed his pessimistic views by having the devil overcome the god, thus expressing the idea that humans are naturally evil, and this evil overcomes the good.

4. In conclusion, the Lord of Flies, however, is not the Lord of the Flies, and the Lord of the Flies is not just a book about kids on an island. And that book isn't just about kids on an island anyway.

[Harke the Apostle]

I also thought that at first, and then I read again.
I'm not too sure about the name Lord of Flies. Alternatives would be Lord of Locusts or Lord of Scarabs.*

*Which is were the Beelzebub concept evolved from, in the first place.

[lb003g0676]

I think I would be so cool to fight them all in one place, but I would prefer it follow Lore first, so what kinda situation are we planning on having to kill these 6 remaining?


Also, will the 6 remaining entities be completely different in style? This might be a good thign for WSG eh?

[Sload]

Also, will the 6 remaining entities be completely different in style? This might be a good thign for WSG eh?

Well, two are dead, one is a body lying in a cryogenic type thing (with less ice and more soulgems), one is a monstrous deformity, one wears full body armor and looks uber, and one is the Real Deal who probably looks somewhat like the original Mannimarco.

(My most recent in-character post expands on what each of them are. Unless there are objections or whatever, you know.)

[Harke the Apostle]

I'd like us to reflect on what kind of magic would preserve the 'Floppy Disc Dude'. Or is he not preserved, but merely kept in a coma, and does he age along with the other Mannimarcos? My guess is that it either would be a very strong enchantment that requires frequent reloading with soulgems, or some kind of spell that requires three ranking Necromancers to maintain it at all times.

Perhaps he would be wrapped in cloth and amulets like a mummy, placed on a catafalque, located in a traingle of unique soulgems blazing energy and connecting the gems with each other by beams of radiant ions.

Another possibility is having the body burn in an eerie cold witchfire, that is maintained by one of the more 'ascended' far out members of the Necromancers, the Lich-Witch or the Witch-Bitch, taking into account the wolves that are her only consorts in the cave, and the wolves-pelts that she wears.
The witchfire makes the body invulnerable and immortal for as long as it is maintained. It does age however. Should the King of Worms die, then the fire will extinguish itself and the body will rise.

[Gnomey]

By the way, Sload, I don't think I meant "Worm King" as a rank. I just did not know how to refer to the eight... Hmm, I still have no idea. Anyway, my point was that having four of the eight in one group would be putting all the eggs into one basket. Think of the possibility of many doubles. One already dies when you are the mages guild grandmaster, then maybe another will die if you do Necromancer quests, but then there's just a group at the end, rather than one false lead after the other, or just having to kill every one of them. Really it's just a matter of perspective: one hard fight in the end with weaker fights before, or a couple of difficult fights ending with a slightly more spectacular fight in the end.