WSG#28[F/A]: Sentinel palace, in all it's glory

Lutemoth · Post by **Lutemoth** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 10:41 am

WSG#28[F]: Sentinel palace, in all it's glory
'Lo again, and happy holidays to all that find this WSG! Hopefully the upcoming New Year brings you itching to draw between here and January 1st

. Let's get down to business, shall we?

Sentinel Palace has held some awe and wonder in my imagination, ever since it's introduction in Daggerfall, and has had quite a tussle in political power over it's history.

[url=http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5667/sentineljb8.jpg][img]http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/5667/sentineljb8.th.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p35/Bycote/sentinel2.jpg]Additional[/url]
[url=http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p35/Bycote/sentinel.jpg]Sentinel[/url]
[url=http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p35/Bycote/sentinel3.jpg]screenshots[/url]

Yeah, that's Sentinel, or as it was circa 1996. It's obvious the designers wanted to make it grand, but could only build it as tall as the worldspace's vertical height allowed. It still carries weight, in my opinion. However, Sentinel Palace isn't up to modern creativity standards, and requires a spiffing up, so to speak.

Elaborating this massive castle won't be all to hard, as long as it keeps it's Redguard charm. The Palace is a multi-towered gargantuan with a classic dome top, and isn't difficult to stray from design and lose it's flair.

If you want to learn more about the history of this palace and it's royalty, check out [url=http://til.gamingsource.net/realms_iliac/]Major Realms of Iliac Bay[/url], and look down for an article on Sentinel. There it should further list cited text and stories

As always, be creative and have fun!

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:40 pm

[img]http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/1397/i125ah5.gif[/img]

Thread over.

Seriously though, it's not concept art so much as an absolutely stunning real-life Mosque/Palace. I think that the look of it is awe-inspiring, and quite close to then idea of Sentinel palace (four minarets on the corners, a large central dome, etc.)

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:51 pm

I'd love to see that retextured and in the game, Eyeball.

About how many faces do you think that would take close-up?

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:58 pm

Unfortunately, I can't count that high.

With the proper concept drawn up, I could probably model that to be comparable, face-wise, with the massive imperial tower in Cyrodiil. It would definitely require more up-close detailing on the ground level, and less faces higher up.

Lutemoth · Post by **Lutemoth** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:08 pm

It's an immense thing itself, and highly recomended as inspiration. However, and most obviously, we can't precicely replicate it, as it's a real-world thing (just have to mention that for the layman). Damned as hell pretty, though

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:39 pm

I'm not really convinced one could just make a mosque. Sentinel palace is the oldest Redguard building in Hammerfell and despite the fact it has probably been renovated countless times since construction, it shouldn't really lose its "ancient" look IMO.

That and having played Oblivion for the first time yesterday, I was also wondering how something that big could possibly fit in a city worldspace. It feels a lot smaller than Morrowind did...

Eyeball88 · Post by **Eyeball88** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 9:32 pm

Well we'd have to do a lower detail version to be viewed at a distance, then the high poly version in its own "Palace District."

I think Lutemoth is correct to say that we shouldn't let the limited technology of 10 years ago hamper our creativity, but if one can find a way to keep an ancient look to it as well, that would be a bonus. Lore does say that the palace itself was hastily built and then added on to since then. We could have an ancient, hastily built foundation that has been buried by newer, more artistic additions like mosaic tiles, minarets and domes.

If I'm understanding the lore correctly, the palace was built to withstand siege in the War of Betony, so underground store-rooms and tunnels could act as catacombs, buried under the more beautiful newer rooms.

CleverClothe · Post by **CleverClothe** » Mon Dec 25, 2006 11:59 pm

Nomadic1 wrote: That and having played Oblivion for the first time yesterday, I was also wondering how something that big could possibly fit in a city worldspace. It feels a lot smaller than Morrowind did...

Welcome to Oblivion.

The playable land area is only about 1.4 times as large as Morrowind. If that.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 12:35 am

Morrowind was about 5.5 square miles.

Oblivion is about 6.7.

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:01 am

Those numbers are a lie, even if bigger, OB seems not.
Just try the have the feeling to be lost or to be far from anything in OB, and it's not because the sight go far, it's the scale who forbid any immmersion.
İn OB you stay in the game, you never have the feeling to be in a world.

Agree with Nomadic1 about the temple. Anyway, look at the Seldjukid(?) or Armenian architectures who seems closer to the Daggerfall version than the blue mosque is.(Color of the texture, but also the towers, entry...) I shall try to find some pics.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:21 am

The color of anything can change... obviously that mosque, if modeled as Sentinel's palace, would have a sandstone or at least sandier color as a texture, and not be blue pearly white.

Richard · Post by **Richard** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:09 am

Perhaps if you based Sentinel palace off of that, you might want to lose the corner towers. Otherwise, it's just going to look like a retextured Hagia Sophia (I'd assume most people would at least recognise the building otherwise). It'd be like if Beth decided to model the Imperial Palace on the Eiffel Tower or Empire State Building or something =/

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:26 pm

PS: it's not Hağia Sophia, it's the blue one, build 1000 years after by the Ottomans.
What's funny is that the Byzantins never build another like Hağia and the church has to wait the Turkish mosquee to become a model. And the Ottoman architect was Armenian. (Sinan who build the most beautifull SÃƒÂ¼lemaniye)

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:29 pm

Well, no matter how much they wanted to, the Byzantines were...over by the time they lost Agia Sophia along with the whole city of Constantinople. So, building another one was pretty much out of question! I've been thinking of ways to alter this building however, in order to have something as impressive in Sentinel. But right now Goldmoor has the best of me.

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:45 pm

Umm... the Hagia Sophia was built by the Emperor Justinian in the 6th Century - Constantinople was captured by the Turks in 1453. 900 years seems enough time to build a second if they wanted to.

One thing I've noticed about the Palace of Sentinel is the way that BS made the building kind of squat to increase its height in perspective - it looks a lot taller than it really is when seen from the ground. At least it is supposed to I guess. Doesn't really work for me though.

Post by **Haplo** » Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:47 pm

[img]http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/812/grawrly9.jpg[/img]

SÃƒÂ¼lemaniye for anyone who wants to see it.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:14 am

Historical discussions aside, I am trying my hand at it now, I once ages ago tried to do a version of it
copying it
but it was terrible.

EDIT: My "grammer" wasn't bad, it was my spelling, which you apparently also need to work on, and tat was only typos. HYPOCRITE!

Tyrion · Post by **Tyrion** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:16 am

yay for good grammer

Vernon · Post by **Vernon** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 3:46 am

Tyrion wrote:grammer

That's 'grammar,' unless you are referring to people who divide large amounts of stuff (cocaine, owl faeces, ectoplasm, kryptonite, cheese, waffle mix, gunpowder, moondust, unicorn fluff, etc) into grams. In which case, congratulations! Contact Cambridge University Press and get that shit into the dictionary!

CleverClothe · Post by **CleverClothe** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:11 am

Nomadic1 wrote:Umm... the Hagia Sophia was built by the Emperor Justinian in the 6th Century - Constantinople was captured by the Turks in 1453. 900 years seems enough time to build a second if they wanted to.

Why would they want to? It would be like building a second White House down the street.

For more inspiration, I ran across this site about two years ago. It is a guy (he has some help) who set out to recreate a computer model of Byzantium in AD 1200. He has sinced changed is focus to the major buildings of the city (he use to have nice pictures of the whole city).

Site: http://www.byzantium1200.com/

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:57 am

Big palace in the middle, 6 small towerish palace around it, you only see four in Daggerfall. The big one includes Lhotuns manor, the smaller ones are related somehow to the six ancient uee-ualas.

Kikaimegami · Post by **Kikaimegami** » Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:25 am

Sketchery! The perspective is horrifying because I freehanded it. Is this sort of the kind of thing you mean?

[img]http://tes.kikaimegami.com/art/tr/sentinel-palace-sketch.jpg[/img]

EDIT: Ooh, there needs to be six of the teeny ones! I can do that. I'll do another drawing with six smaller buildings around it if this style is okay.

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 2:58 am

Aye... another picture for inspiration on Sentinel's Palace:

[img]http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9672/cairoxo7.jpg[/img]

(Next come the sketches!

)

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 3:41 am

I'm having troubles with this, because the temptation to change the basic design is huge.

And I don't know how to make my one design fit on one piece of A4 paper :S

I will keep everyone updated on my difficulties

Another was the Velothi problem which Kikai and I had on our first attempts. Which I think we have both overcome now

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:11 am

Gate concept:
[img]http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6149/gateconceptzd1gi3.jpg[/img]

Post by **Gnomey** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:02 pm

Wow, that looks nice! I'll try and do a concept, but what I'm throwing around in my mind seems beyond my skills.

Originally I wanted to give it an outwardly layered look, with old mud-bricks still visible at the very bottom of the palace, and I still like the idea though it now doesn't seem like how it would really look. In short I'm aiming for to concepts, one which is unlikely and one which will be my candidate.

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:35 pm

im totaly drawing that. i have no idea when since i have a giant ass self portrait and a character portrait commision to do, but i wana do it. that thing is pimp.

btw, i would like to formaly anounce eyeball's idea of making the inside walls covered in a mosiac depicting the entire history of the redguards. cause its just that uber.

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 7:39 pm

Aye, Palanthas ftw!

(That's a reference to a city in Dragonlance. Where the outer wall is made of indestructable marble and the entire thing is etched with the history of the world.)

Nomadic1 · Post by **Nomadic1** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:41 pm

I like the entrances to the fancy buildings in good old [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarkand]Samarqand[/url]. They're Turko-Persian - slightly more exotic and prettier than Arabic architecture IMO. I reckon these fit better than Haplo's entrance because of the shape of Daggerfall's Sentinel palace entrance, and the fact that it looks like there is supposed to be tiling where those rhombuses are.

Post by **Haplo** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:57 pm

My ref. pic wasn't for Sentinel's palace, just maybe to some section of the city, like is common in older cities.

Kikaimegami · Post by **Kikaimegami** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:18 am

I beat the Velothi outta it with a woodden spoon. That was set on fire.

[img]http://tes.kikaimegami.com/art/tr/sentinel-palace-sketch2.jpg[/img]

EDIT: Note to self, stop freehand drawing perspective when drawing buildings.

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:03 am

Kikaimegami wrote:I beat the Velothi outta it with a woodden spoon. That was set on fire.

[img]http://tes.kikaimegami.com/art/tr/sentinel-palace-sketch2.jpg[/img]

EDIT: Note to self, stop freehand drawing perspective when drawing buildings.

Looks like a beauty kikai, nice work

don't sop drawign free hand, you must get used to it. Looks at reference and stuff, it'll be good, becuase using perspective lines is nevr accuarte (the correct lieks ahve to be MUCH furtehr away than possible on paper, additionally, it can leave it looking stiff, and scares you (well me definately) from doing interesting angles. It's all about trial and error, you think soemthign doesn't follow, rub it out!

It's especially easy with a wacom. nad thats absolutely fine, so stop moaning, and I can't wait to see it coloured

.

Morgoth · Post by **Morgoth** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:30 am

Dubble-postz0rz alert!!1! (Pound.)

I've got one in the works. It's more of a aerial-side view, so it should yield more than interesting results. (How so is anyone's guess.)

CleverClothe · Post by **CleverClothe** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:50 am

A regular or symetrical shape doesn't seem like something that has a rich history of being expanded, at least to me.

Lutemoth · Post by **Lutemoth** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:37 am

I'll attempt adding something tomorrow, as that's when I'm closing up this in headway for the next wsg

lb003g0676 · Post by **lb003g0676** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:04 pm

I might ahve to PM my piece, as I dunno when I'll get a chnace next to finish it.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:18 pm

kebra wrote:Those numbers are a lie, even if bigger, OB seems not.
Just try the have the feeling to be lost or to be far from anything in OB, and it's not because the sight go far, it's the scale who forbid any immmersion.
?n OB you stay in the game, you never have the feeling to be in a world.

No, those numbers are not a lie. Those numbers are ones that Sload and I came up with after many calculations. And sure, anything looks bigger when you only see one very small part of it at a time.

If I recall correctly from ES2, there was a 'reflecting pond' (like the one in front of the Lincoln Memorial) in front of the Sentinel Castle.

Post by **Haplo** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:19 pm

I think what kebra meant is that in spite of the calculated numbers, Oblivion still seems smaller.

Lutemoth · Post by **Lutemoth** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:55 am

Nothing easier than an indescript image shot with two-tone night lighting

[url=http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6425/sentinelrq8.jpg][img]http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6425/sentinelrq8.th.jpg[/img][/url]

Macar · Post by **Macar** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 6:23 am

Intersting take- the closest to the Daggerfall version I think.

BTW, expect my participation in the next WSG- since I have my comp back- and I'm back in buisness.