Basins and Washtubs

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:56 am

I came across one of these in an int I reviewed today and then was shocked to find that it is still common for these to be put into interiors. Shouldn't these be removed from OOT and all cells that use them? There aren't any in Cyrodill, and there aren't any in Vvardenfel. Why would they have them in MW?

I know this would be a lot of work, but for the sake of logic and consistency shouldn't these be removed?

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:13 am

Don't agree,

No cliff in MW, will we removed them?

They are an interesting element for int, well done and logical, i don't see the point.
What is this need to be more purist than even Bethesda is?

angelus6 · Post by **angelus6** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:16 am

because bethesda aren';t purist at all? look at all the 'test' shit in the CS. especially in OB. how many cells are labelled 'MikesTestBlahblahetc' or somthing close. and there are so many duplicate items to. there's no need to remove them but it would have been nice if Beth had cleaned up the CS before release

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:36 pm

I wasn't speaking about technical aspects and not about OB i don't now well.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:31 pm

@Angelus6: ...? What do invisible test cells have to do with plainly visible washtubs?

@Kebra: Cliffs are a geographical feature that don't look too different from the normal ground. Basins and Washtubs are items related to hygene, a slippery slope. If we have basins and washtubs then why don't we have toilets? (not suggesting we add them, just saying they are on the same line of boring stuff the NPCs do when your not around that Beth never adds.)

angelus6 · Post by **angelus6** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:39 pm

lol, i was making a point about beth being lazy with their cleaning b they release games. as basins and wash tubs were never used why are they there? exactally....

Andres Indoril · Post by **Andres Indoril** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:42 pm

Basins and washtubs are in the TR_data.bsa and esm not from the original game.

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:50 pm

Shouldn't these be removed from OOT and all cells that use them?

Basins and washtubs are in the TR_data.bsa and esm not from the original game.

Silly Andres.

But by your logic, Thrig, we should remove ALL items that are not found in both Cyrodiil and Vvardenfell. That means the dice, the pumice stone (which needs a texture), the new weapons and armors, and the bloat - because none of this stuff appears in Vvardenfell or Cyrodiil either.

Yes, we're a purist project, but being OCD about this is hardly necessary.

Andres Indoril · Post by **Andres Indoril** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:52 pm

Nanu Ra wrote:Silly Andres.

Actually you are silly in this case, as that was aimed at Mr.6. Or I should reread the thread... Oh, and there is bloat on Vvardenfell, just not the spores. Meh, Let's say we are both a little silly and I'm a little sillier

angelus6 · Post by **angelus6** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:59 pm

ah, i think it's me that has the wrong end of the stick here. sorry, ive gone and confused even myself now... dammit

Nanu · Post by **Nanu** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:00 pm

Actually you are silly in this case, as that was aimed at Mr.6. Or I should reread the thread... Oh, and there is bloat on Vvardenfell, just not the spores.

I stand corrected.

And I was talking about the bloatspores.

kebra · Post by **kebra** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:18 pm

TF, more we have furniture, better it is. And there is many exemple others than cliffs, but Nanu Ra gave the conclusion.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:34 pm

MY POSITION:
Cliffs, Armor = Good in Thrigs mind because they are logical extensions of Beth made objects

Basins Dice and Washtubs = Bad because there is nothing comperable in MW or OB.

Hygene in video games = If the devs didn't put it in, why should we.

Dice might be able to slip by because they are small and not related to Hygene.

Noirgrim · Post by **Noirgrim** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:12 pm

I think you just don't like hygene...

Lady Nerevar · Post by **Lady Nerevar** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:17 pm

we have em, we took time to place em... i dont see a real reason to remove them. sure, it created inconsistancy with the game, but nothing major. we have brushes, nails, cranes and all kinds of other stuff that isent found in either game. it helps promote atmospehere, and taking it all out is a waste of time me thinks.

washtubs and basins are also nifty

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:28 pm

Noirgrim wrote:I think you just don't like hygene...

Im in college, enough said.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:26 pm

I agree with Thrignar.

It's one thing for blackroses to not grow on Vvardenfel. It's one thing for it not to be that cliffy. It's one thing for them not to have certain armor and weapons.

Its another thing for them not to have bathtubs. If the Firewatch in has them, then it implies that they're common enough for some noplace inn to have them. Which means that a city like Vivec should have at least one.

Of course, I could follow this logic to ask why certain books that make sense to be in Cyrodiil are only in Hammerfell. I think the difference is that books are not nearly as noticable as bath tubs.

And there's also the slippery slope argument. Why don't they have toilets? Why don't they have sinks? So forth.

Gez · Post by **Gez** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:51 pm

I find this to be a pretty stupid debate.

There are no bakers in vanilla. We have a TR_Baker NPC class, and several bakeries. Should we remove them, too? Gameplay!!!! THERE ARE NO BAKERYS ON TEH VANDARFEEL, BY PUTING BAKERYES ON TEH MANLIAND YUO AR RUNIING TEH GAMEPLYA!!!

Forgive me for not buying that argument. You would have a point if TR made your character require to use the bathtubs, by having some sort of script that would lower your personality for each day you spend without bathing, for example.

IT IS NOT THE CASE. They're merely there to decorate and be pretty. Detailing. Making things look more unique.

I don't think you'll find anyone complaining he enjoyed less our mod because he saw a bathtub and it completely ruined the game for him. (And even if there was one, he would be a filthy fatbeard anyway.)

Speaking of slippery slopes, there's also a toilet model. It's used notably in Firewatch, in front of the docks.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:53 pm

Didn't we make jokes about Silgrad having toilets?

I also think its a pretty stupid debate. I don't think its a good thing to have, and I'm glad that Hammerfell won't, but it really doesn't matter.

Kikaimegami · Post by **Kikaimegami** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:08 am

Actually, you can have basins and washtubs without toilets, just ask anyone who has used a chamber pot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_pot

The objects in question (the basins and such) would be filled from buckets in a well and emptied, probably onto the street, as would chamber pots. You don't need indoor plubming for a washtub and you don't need to be rich to own one, either. Yea, they're not in Morrowind anywhere, but you don't need to make the slippery-slope argument and say "well there should be toilets, too!" because those would look silly, where as an object used as a chamber pot (which is, more or less, a bucket in its basic form) wouldn't look out of place.

CleverClothe · Post by **CleverClothe** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:30 am

In order to make this thread more productive, I propose that we change the subject to "Toilets VS Washbasins". A poll should help determine the issue...

[Edit: BTW, why does Sload Soap drain personality? Maybe Thrig is on to something. People in Tamriel don't like cleanliness!]

Graff · Post by **Graff** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:58 am

And there's also the slippery slope argument. Why don't they have toilets?

All Dark Elves have a stick (latin: stickus spikinus) inserted into their anus at birth, or perhaps during the foetal stage, this results in a lack of a need to excrete, and also the Dark Elves ornery nature.

Stalker · Post by **Stalker** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:59 am

Graff wrote:
And there's also the slippery slope argument. Why don't they have toilets?
All Dark Elves have a stick (latin: stickus spikinus) inserted into their anus at birth, or perhaps during the foetal stage, this results in a lack of a need to excrete, and also the Dark Elves ornery nature.

Actually they pee in those pots and vases you see scattered around the cities. Also what do you think scuttle really is ?

El Scumbago · Post by **El Scumbago** » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:04 pm

Bathtubs rule, as do hair brushes and dice. If Beth devs didn't have enough time to make them and place them, it's their problem. As mentioned, they do increase the atmosphere factor and send it through the stratosphere. Besides, whoever wants consistency may sit in front of his comp for a weekend and add it all in the appropriate Vvardenfell interiors. Can't be more simple, really.

Sky Captain · Post by **Sky Captain** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:08 am

What's wrong with bathtubs. Why can't we have toilets and script them to give you health when you use them (once per 2 hours or something like that). It's just a lot more to have the player interact with. I don't know about you, but the more miscellaneous stuff we have, the better. While I'm playing a game, I like to feel as if I'm actually the character, and the absence of such everyday objects really kills the immersion. It'll only be better for the quality of the plugin, and of the user's perception of our modification. Beth didn't put them in because they didn't think it would make much difference in their sales, but our purpose, as blatantly expressed in the motto "just to see what's there" is reason enough for us to make such things, after very important objects like architecture and weapons and armor of course. When I modded before Tamriel-Rebuilt, I was really annoyed at the lack of misc. objects, but when I downloaded the OoT, I was really happy that such objects like dice and stones were included.

Well, that's my two cents

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:08 am

my problem now isn't so much the inconsistency with the base game, but the inconsistency with the rest of TR. These are not in very many ints, and the ints they are in don't follow any pattern. I personally find that they TAKE AWAY from the atmosphere as there is no game that I have ever played, barring goldeneye or strange platformers from my youth that included them for humor, that included anything hygiene related.

I am not arguing against a slippery slope, I am only arguing for consistency. Bakeries, new armor, new books, cliffs, and other non consistency breaking items are fine with me

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:52 am

cliffs? wtf mate?

No, no bitching.

You may think they take away from it, but I personally think they add to it. But only in Almalexia. You do have my permission to clean them out of everywhere. But I'd like to keep them in Alma because they seem to... well... fit? there. And it can make people wonder why the only place people bathe is in Almalexia. Which there is really no reason for. So nyah.

Sload · Post by **Sload** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:46 am

almalexia only makes no sense because almalexia is not particularly anything other than big and theres a clever and cool way to make a bath with indoril peaces that was used to a fancy spa by massey in almalexia

Post by **Haplo** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:01 am

it looks good slippery slope

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:19 pm

I will state in plain terms my current problem with these items.

THEY ARE NOT CONSISTENTLY PLACED WITHIN TR

We have them sporadicly placed, there is no ryhme or reason to their locations. What we need IMO is to set up a system for what ints they can and cannot be in, that way we can have some level of consistency, while minimizing the number of ints that would need a redo. Or, better yet, we could put a moratorium on placing them ingame to allow for consistency in the later maps.

SUMMARY: PUT THEM IN MORE OR TAKE THEM OUT, THE WAY IT IS NOW IT JUST SEEMS ODD HAVING 1/40TH OF OUR INTS HAVE THESE THINGS

(I obviously support taking them out, however consistency in any form would be better than the status quo)

Eraser · Post by **Eraser** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:35 pm

What? didn't you know all citizens of tamriel use a novice alteration spell "cleanse self" that cleans their body and restores personality

Seriously, just leave them if it means moving on to doing something more noticable, unless you're out looking for inconsistencies it won't be noticable.

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:57 pm

If you remove them all, there will be gaps that need to be filled. Why not intimate in dialogue that Dunmer bathing means bathing in a pool or river. The Odai can be the new Ganges. And the only reason you find baths and basins on the mainland is because they have adapted to Imperial culture. And in regards to the House Indoril. Queen Barenziah, after her return from Wayrest, began a crusade to modernize the city. This would parallel actual history with Empress Carlotta of Mexico who brought from her native Belgium a majority of Mexican traditions, like the easter egg. It's a stretch, but at least its feasible.

CleverClothe · Post by **CleverClothe** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:49 am

I would like to point out that one of the wash basins was made by Bethesda.

What are the ints in Map 3 and 4 like (as far as these objects)? There were no wash basins in Maps 1 and 2 (v022), and only 4 bath tubs in Map 1 (all in a public bathing room at an inn in Firewatch).

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:29 am

hmm, well I have only reviewed/seen 2 map 3 ints with them in there.

kapuhy · Post by **kapuhy** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 9:38 am

Umm... how much work it will be to remove them (and fill the empty space Hemitheon mentioned)? That's the first thing to consider, because if it will take more time than, say, creating one large int... maybe it's not worth this.

Or you can just think of it that in terms of bathtubs and showers - in our world, in some houses there's only a shower, in some - only a bathtub, and in others both. Just a question of how you prefer to bathe. In Tamriel it may be the same with washing youself in the river/pool/washtube or just pouring water on your body from these pots (Tamrielic shower

).

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:57 pm

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k315/Hemitheon/TaythionisCastle6tub.jpg

see like this one. This int hasn't been reviewed yet though. So I might be told to cut it anyway.

Thrignar Fraxix · Post by **Thrignar Fraxix** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:03 pm

That is only a 1 x 2 space of cell.

The main point now is figuring out how many of these things there are. Apparently there aren't that many which would make fixing this easier, and more important for consistency.

I am curious how many of these things are in the Interiors of maps 2 and 3. (the unmerged ints)

Hemitheon · Post by **Hemitheon** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 8:07 pm

Well I can say that I've used around 4-5 tubs and 8-10 basins in all my cells.

ch85us2001 · Post by **ch85us2001** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:19 am

Quite simple.

All residents of Vvardenfell take dust baths in the ashlands. The residents of Cyrodil have plenty of lakes and strems to bathe in. It's only mainland MW that needs tubs.

Lud · Post by **Lud** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 3:25 am

I would propose that we make a distinaction between tubs and basins used in normal houses and those used in "bath-houses" or similar. I'd say that, though it's inconsistent to have basins in every house on the mainland, using one or two in specific locations centered totally around such things is in the same class as having bakers, etc.

So what would people think of only using such items in such buildings. (These buildings would be pretty rare)

What would people think of that as a solution?